Archer VS BM

Chezedude - Dreamweaver

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Only class that is ranged that moves to an archers melee range is mage and they don't do it every time. A similarly geared mage will get you to 50% and either bypass your charm or sutra kill you.

Just because you have 2 8 second paralyzes doesn't mean you can hold someone in place. A wizard will simply blink, a cleric will sleep you or use plume barrier, a sage veno will summer sprint to remove paralyze or stun lock you with their pet. Not to mention each class can spark or immune pot or use genie skills. A paralyze is nothing compared to a stun. You also do much lower damage compared to a bm with the same refines. You also have very few skills enabling you to quickly get in melee range, couple that with lower hp/defenses due to light armor and a good range class will kill you before you reach them.

Obviously you think a fist archer is feasible because you are a massive cash shopper. For people who realize these are just pixels it isn't close to a good way to pvp.



Is it the fist archer that's wrecking or his refines? Give everyone the same playing field and all of a sudden this fist archer is nothing but a 2 shot fly buzzing around.

You have no idea what my pvp abilities are since you've never seen me. Obviously gears make a huge difference, but you make it sound like every player with expensive gears just automatically have no skill.

Fists will always be better on BM, barb, and sins because they have to get in your face to hit you. Of course fists on an archer will do less damage than a bm using same refined fists, but the difference is only a matter of 100-150 str which is is maybe 1k p atk. The fist mastery for BMs is not much of an advantage. Archers have a 60% increase in fire damage, which on heavys is very significant.

Against magic users or other archers, only in the air is it hard to get close in a short amount of time. on the ground you can easily immobilize someone for 10 seconds EVEN WITH FREEZE ON WIZARDS, which is more than enough to kill arcane, LA. yes i can keep them from moving even with just freeze. In pk if you are just spamming your freeze and stun skills the first moment you can, then you are not using them effectively at all. How hard is it to wait til a wizard use distance shrink, THEN freeze him while it's on cooldown?

And for apocs, it's a 2 minute cooldown. If you can't find another opportunity in 2 minutes (other than a sin going invis) then I don't know what to say.

And finally the most important aspect of pvp is experience. All the reasons you can think of is only from what you IMAGINE a fist archer would be like, but clearly you have no experience pvping with fists or seen someone effectively use it. You are arguing with theory against experience. You cannot possibly enumerate everything that could happen in something thats as dynamic as pvp.

I've encountered skeptics on DW just like you when I first used fists. I've heard well equip barb or bm tell me they would "quit the game" (exaggeration of course) if I beat them with fists. I've 1v1ed in pk with BM with full +10 gear, nirvana, and same refined fists, his lvl 100 sin which also uses the same gear, lvl 10x archers with gears just as good as mine, and I can tell you that I win more than my fair share. In fact, I would not hesitate to bet money with anyone in DW in best 3 out of 5 fight.

So if you want to prove your point, you should come up with some more convincing fact.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

shouldn't you let the bms wreck with fists while the archers kill people from range? you know, since the ability to pick off targets at range is such a valuable asset in TW? i'm sure Cheze wrecks very hard with his 8JUN bow too but that's just me.

I use both my weapons for when I see fit. In TW I in fact use my bow the majority of the times since if I run up to some squad with my fists I'll most likely get ganked and die very fast. Same in pk, of course I don't only use my fists because that would be pretty stupid when people can just run around. I only use it when I know my opponent cannot get away.

Devoted - Lost City

Chezedude - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You have no idea what my pvp abilities are since you've never seen me. Obviously gears make a huge difference, but you make it sound like every player with expensive gears just automatically have no skill.

Fists will always be better on BM, barb, and sins because they have to get in your face to hit you. Of course fists on an archer will do less damage than a bm using same refined fists, but the difference is only a matter of 100-150 str which is is maybe 1k p atk. The fist mastery for BMs is not much of an advantage. Archers have a 60% increase in fire damage, which on heavys is very significant.

Against magic users or other archers, only in the air is it hard to get close in a short amount of time. on the ground you can easily immobilize someone for 10 seconds EVEN WITH FREEZE ON WIZARDS, which is more than enough to kill arcane, LA. yes i can keep them from moving even with just freeze. In pk if you are just spamming your freeze and stun skills the first moment you can, then you are not using them effectively at all. How hard is it to wait til a wizard use distance shrink, THEN freeze him while it's on cooldown?

And for apocs, it's a 2 minute cooldown. If you can't find another opportunity in 2 minutes (other than a sin going invis) then I don't know what to say.

And finally the most important aspect of pvp is experience. All the reasons you can think of is only from what you IMAGINE a fist archer would be like, but clearly you have no experience pvping with fists or seen someone effectively use it. You are arguing with theory against experience. You cannot possibly enumerate everything that could happen in something thats as dynamic as pvp.

I've encountered skeptics on DW just like you when I first used fists. I've heard well equip barb or bm tell me they would "quit the game" (exaggeration of course) if I beat them with fists. I've 1v1ed in pk with BM with full +10 gear, nirvana, and same refined fists, his lvl 100 sin which also uses the same gear, lvl 10x archers with gears just as good as mine, and I can tell you that I win more than my fair share. In fact, I would not hesitate to bet money with anyone in DW in best 3 out of 5 fight.

So if you want to prove your point, you should come up with some more convincing fact.

Uh, I'm completely amazed at how you could possibly beat a bm 1v1 with fist. Is this guy sporting only enough logical function to only be able to log into a game? A bm would simply stun you and hit back for double the damage, maybe even more because you are light armor. If you anti-stunned a bm can easily leap away/seal you.

Think about it, with the same refines a bm with have more hp, more physical defense and more physical attack. If you both stood still and attacked each other the bm would always win besides the rare chance you string a ****load of crits together. How can he possibly lose?

As for your skill I never said you have no skill I'm simply saying the reason you think fist is so good on an archer is due to your refines. The amount of effort, chi and genie energy used to kill someone you would be much better off actually using a bow and attacking from max range.

Chezedude - Dreamweaver

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Uh, I'm completely amazed at how you could possibly beat a bm 1v1 with fist.

why thank you.

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Is this guy sporting only enough logical function to only be able to log into a game? A bm would simply stun you and hit back for double the damage, maybe even more because you are light armor. If you anti-stunned a bm can easily leap away/seal you.

no actually he actually has pretty good pvp skills.

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Think about it, with the same refines a bm with have more hp, more physical defense and more physical attack. If you both stood still and attacked each other the bm would always win besides the rare chance you string a ****load of crits together. How can he possibly lose?

As for your skill I never said you have no skill I'm simply saying the reason you think fist is so good on an archer is due to your refines. The amount of effort, chi and genie energy used to kill someone you would be much better off actually using a bow and attacking from max range.

A rank8 bow with same refines does not deal nearly as much damage as a fist. If you can explain to me how to take down a lvl 100 barb with 20k+ with a +10 rank8 bow quickly I'll be impressed. (and yes the barb has heart of steel)

I can see there's no way to convince you by writing walls of text on a forum, so maybe I'll work on compiling some pvp clips. Yes it's a pve server unfortunately, but there's still a fair amount of pkers.

Mage_Fizban - Dreamweaver

Chezedude - Dreamweaver wrote: »

why thank you.


no actually he actually has pretty good pvp skills.

fixed. hahah

EDIT:

Nvm you're right. swordman hits so fast he counts as two people. therefore the plural makes sense.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

A fist/claw archer can more easily hit 5 APS than a BM; it breaks down to who has what in terms of gear.

Without Zooming Powder, I find it difficult to kill barbs with a bow. I can drop most every barb with fists though.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

A fist/claw archer can more easily hit 5 APS than a BM; it breaks down to who has what in terms of gear.

Without Zooming Powder, I find it difficult to kill barbs with a bow. I can drop most every barb with fists though.

where did you get this from? the only difference in available -interval is rank8 chest, which is not what i would say easy...

Telarith - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

where did you get this from? the only difference in available -interval is rank8 chest, which is not what i would say easy...

All they need is the early -.05, which is rank 4 I think, to hit 5 APS without tome or nirvana. And since those are the expensive ones, easier for archer to achieve 5 than a BM.

Quilue - Sanctuary

oh right forgot aobut earlier rank chests...

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Brigid - Harshlands wrote: »

Since when have PvP rankings reflected anything except how many lower level players you've ganked? Archers are naturally better for ganking weaker players, since we've got more range. PK charts really don't mean anything.

hehe i have a dex barb guild mate, he soloed at 99/100 more 90-95 veno/wizz with tt bow XD

was funny during bigger pk, and the debuff spear aginst another barb is great too with good attack speed.

A BM will never have the ranged skills or ranged effectiveness of an archer. So saying a bm is better in almost everything seems rather noobish thing to say, when that "almost everything" is range, lol.

like lv 79 seal ranged skill or genie paralyze with nice range?

Uh, I'm completely amazed at how you could possibly beat a bm 1v1 with fist. Is this guy sporting only enough logical function to only be able to log into a game? A bm would simply stun you and hit back for double the damage, maybe even more because you are light armor. If you anti-stunned a bm can easily leap away/seal you.

its true, against bm not really effective ebcause occult ice not 100% and short duration and they do most of tiem aoe stun. then only way if somebody keep under stunluck that wr/bm.

ok barb maybe easier until they dont do a armaggedon/perdition XD

TigerLily - Lost City

Ive seen rank8 archers with fists drop 100+ barbs pretty easy. But i see hell bms drop barbs with fists even faster.

Pretty sure wizard/cleric/veno with the strength/dex requirement and interval gear would be able to drop a barbs with TT100 fists to - getting 5. attack rate might be an issue for casters tho b:surrender

Would still be rather amazed seeing a fist archer drop an equally well geared, same interval fist BM 1v1.

Bm hits harder with fist mastery, has useful mele skills and better defenses and hp all around and they also dont have to pray for occult ice to proc since they have other stuns. Seems to be mission impossible unless the BM is a huge tool, the type that uses wrong marrows and holy paths in air, or if he is severely out geared.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

Ive seen rank8 archers with fists drop 100+ barbs pretty easy. But i see hell bms drop barbs with fists even faster.

Pretty sure wizard/cleric/veno with the strength/dex requirement and interval gear would be able to drop a barbs with TT100 fists to - getting 5. attack rate might be an issue for casters tho b:surrender

Would still be rather amazed seeing a fist archer drop an equally well geared, same interval fist BM 1v1.

Bm hits harder with fist mastery, has useful mele skills and better defenses and hp all around and they also dont have to pray for occult ice to proc since they have other stuns. Seems to be mission impossible unless the BM is a huge tool, the type that uses wrong marrows and holy paths in air, or if he is severely out geared.

Fist BMs and Fist archers, in terms of dropping barbs...

First, the culti does not matter if you've got the gear. Fist/Claw Archers are better suited at dropping barbs than BMs, specifically because their damage is going to be very near the same, except the archer will be dealing 50 (or 60%, if you're sage) of the weapon atk as magic damage instead of the 60% patk boost that their masteries would give. Translation: bye bye barb.

Perplexitie - Harshlands

is this a troll?b:shutup

Varscona - Sanctuary

uh someone feel free to correct me but what's to stop a barb from activating beastial rage while you're scratching away at him and just stun then drop arma on your **** when he has the chi? if he didnt have chi to begin with...

Torges - Sanctuary

I have a question for BMs:
What weapon path is actually the populairst?

TigerLily - Lost City

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Fist BMs and Fist archers, in terms of dropping barbs...

First, the culti does not matter if you've got the gear. Fist/Claw Archers are better suited at dropping barbs than BMs, specifically because their damage is going to be very near the same, except the archer will be dealing 50 (or 60%, if you're sage) of the weapon atk as magic damage instead of the 60% patk boost that their masteries would give. Translation: bye bye barb.

I find it hard to believe that blazing arrow would make up for the loss of dmg in not having lvl 11 fist mastery o.o

Alltho i never used TT 100 fists so i can of course not really know. Most fists Bms use pots that adds wood dmg so i guess blazing arrow does make a significant difference in dmg when its all about dps and not spike dmg.

Adagio - Lost City

Torges - Sanctuary wrote: »

I have a question for BMs:
What weapon path is actually the populairst?

The most useful and popular path is axes. Usually at about 8x i noticed many bms also start using fists.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that blazing arrow would make up for the loss of dmg in not having lvl 11 fist mastery o.o

Alltho i never used TT 100 fists so i can of course not really know. Most fists Bms use pots that adds wood dmg so i guess blazing arrow does make a significant difference in dmg when its all about dps and not spike dmg.

It really does. Fist mastery, for example, adds 60% of your weapon damage as p. atk. Sage Blazing Arrow adds 60% of your weapon damage as fire dmg. Since barbs are 99% of the time in heavy armor, the fire damage for an archer actually outshines that of a fist BM.

I carry a giant stack of greater wood apo around with me specifically for dropping barbs (and occasionally BMs). It goes very nicely along side Blazing Arrow & wizard water buff. The elemental attacks are quite significant. I couple these with the archer specific genie skill (Stunning Blast) to keep them in place and make me immune to stun. Works like a charm without fail.

When you look at fists and claws and realize that they've a strength modifier, you might be put off by switching your archer over to a str heavy build which would negate the effectiveness of your bow and ranged skills. On the contrary, a minimal strength build is still much more preferable as most do not take into consideration a fist/claw archer needs to be permasparked to be effective. While you can get slightly more damage over all going strength heavy, it is not NEARLY as much more damage as a minimal strength build. When you play with the damage calculations, you need to take into consideration the usefulness of sparked critical hits. In the end, there is absolutely no reason for an archer to sacrafice dex for strength beyond the minimum requirement of the weapon.

You are right though, it is not about spike damage. It is about highly reliable, stable damage. It also very nicely compliments an archer's ranged damage and skills. Sage builds shine in particular here because of the damage reduction of their celestial eruption, the increase in sharpened tooth arrow as an initial ranged skill and the fact that your target has likely already ticked by the time they've gotten to you. Once they're there, freeze them in place, become immune to stun and rail them. Rinse, wash, repeat.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

It really does. Fist mastery, for example, adds 60% of your weapon damage as p. atk. Sage Blazing Arrow adds 60% of your weapon damage as fire dmg. Since barbs are 99% of the time in heavy armor, the fire damage for an archer actually outshines that of a fist BM.

ok sage flazing arrow vs sahe fist mastery what is 90% eq pattack or lets talk about sage fist ulti 100%eq fire dmg for 15 sec and 3k fire dmg? or better the axe ulti ?

a good barb get nice mdef, more than LA, so 90% eq pattack vs 60% eq mattack and max 20% absrob difference if barb not in tiger form
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=f3b5a51e3c4cb7ed

i agreee in most of thing only i think compare the sage skills with sage skills in both side

Illyana - Dreamweaver

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

ok sage flazing arrow vs sahe fist mastery what is 90% eq pattack or lets talk about sage fist ulti 100%eq fire dmg for 15 sec and 3k fire dmg? or better the axe ulti ?

a good barb get nice mdef, more than LA, so 90% eq pattack vs 60% eq mattack and max 20% absrob difference if barb not in tiger form
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=f3b5a51e3c4cb7ed

i agreee in most of thing only i think compare the sage skills with sage skills in both side

Barbs have horrible Mdef and are typically carrying catapults and in tiger form. The sage archer bow mastery does not apply to fists/claws. It is simply base damage of the weapon + gems & refines, modified by a small amount of strength to equip it. Sage/Demon BM fist masteries boost weapon attack by 75%. Surely 75 > 60, but a barb has far less mdef than pdef.

Dudusk - Lost City

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Fist bm's replace werebeasts for tanking. You won't steal agro from something that can triple spark every 15 seconds. Obviously the sleep bosses an archer is better but that is pve.

A fist bm > a fist archer for completely obvious reasons:

- Fist mastery.. durr that's a minimum 75% increase to weapon damage.
- BM's don't have min strength for fists. Good BM's will have a minimum of 272 strength but most have 300+ and I'll have 350+ with my build. Any archer with more than 117 strength makes me laugh.
- For pvp (I have no idea how an archer uses fist for pvp other than lulz) you aren't gonna kill anything besides Anders. Fists are great when you can keep the person at melee range. Good luck with that as an archer..

A good bm beats an archer in almost every aspect of the game.

edit: btw the only way to get out of my stunlock is to absolute domain or badge of courage, cheers ^^

The PWI rich archer cheezedude killed a bm with the hh100 fists.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Pretty sure the fire/pot buffs don't take into account rings or gems, so that skews results based off of level of refinement on the weapon most likely. Poison pots are my fav, as I crafted 9 hours worth in one go to keep me going. Still haven't run out.

Another thing, the % difference will shrink between the two the more commonalities there are. When both use the same poison pot, the % damage (if any) due to blazing arrow will shrink, as it comprises a smaller amount of the damage total. Especially since they are adding more mag dmg.

And lastly there is the 135% fire damage Drake's Breath Bash can offer. In BM section we have already posted about the possibility of this being useful later on against heavies, and ways to work it in with demon spark.

So even with archer buff working in there favor, BMs can still out-damage them against heavies as well as lights.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Pretty sure the fire/pot buffs don't take into account rings or gems, so that skews results based off of level of refinement on the weapon most likely. Poison pots are my fav, as I crafted 9 hours worth in one go to keep me going. Still haven't run out.

Another thing, the % difference will shrink between the two the more commonalities there are. When both use the same poison pot, the % damage (if any) due to blazing arrow will shrink, as it comprises a smaller amount of the damage total. Especially since they are adding more mag dmg.

And lastly there is the 135% fire damage Drake's Breath Bash can offer. In BM section we have already posted about the possibility of this being useful later on against heavies, and ways to work it in with demon spark.

So even with archer buff working in there favor, BMs can still out-damage them against heavies as well as lights.

You're absolutely right, assuming both of them are at 5 APS... which typically requires them to be demon. Sage BMs unfortunately must achieve more -hit gear to make this a reality. Generally this strategy involves insanely lucky OHT (not feasible) or nirvana legs. It is easier for a sage archer to hit 5 APS than a sage BM to. Once we've introduced sage sparks into the mix, the duration of the fight might be longer but the archer will come out on top because it can last longer, survive the barb's attacks, etc.

... and then there is evasion. b:surrender

Also, I'm not sure about weapon masteries or fire/apoc being applied on top of additional damage modifiers from ornaments.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Even with 25% dmg reduction, how is an LA archer going to have better survivability than a HA BM? Especially if talking about tanking a physical damage target? That seems just kind of strange.

Also, BMs have much more options in how they get their damage across. They could do the easy route of demon sparking, but if they have 4 base APS all it takes is Windshield to reach 5. So why not just use demon Heaven's Flame? Their phys damage will still be greater than min str archer, but their apoth is doubled along with any other ele dmg buffs for 9 secs. So right there, for only 2 sparks, they deal more damage. And that is without adding in fist ulti, which would be a lot of extra elemental damage.

They could try using demon GS with HF, for a 50% chance of auto-crit in addition to a 50% phys def and mag def debuff. Automatic X4 physical and apoth pot damage for that, which again will be higher than archer buff.

There are still more ways for a BM to get their damage, whether elemental of physical, across to the target due to using different weapons and maximizing their potential. And this isn't even going into the effect amping damage has if the BM should go the lazy route and just Bramble Rage or Thunderstorm. So while it may seem in a way archers can do the same role, they lack the shear number of ways a BM can deliver not only the same amount of damage, but more. Which I imagine is what the other archers were talking about.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Even with 25% dmg reduction, how is an LA archer going to have better survivability than a HA BM? Especially if talking about tanking a physical damage target? That seems just kind of strange.

Also, BMs have much more options in how they get their damage across. They could do the easy route of demon sparking, but if they have 4 base APS all it takes is Windshield to reach 5. So why not just use demon Heaven's Flame? Their phys damage will still be greater than min str archer, but their apoth is doubled along with any other ele dmg buffs for 9 secs. So right there, for only 2 sparks, they deal more damage. And that is without adding in fist ulti, which would be a lot of extra elemental damage.

They could try using demon GS with HF, for a 50% chance of auto-crit in addition to a 50% phys def and mag def debuff. Automatic X4 physical and apoth pot damage for that, which again will be higher than archer buff.

There are still more ways for a BM to get their damage, whether elemental of physical, across to the target due to using different weapons and maximizing their potential. And this isn't even going into the effect amping damage has if the BM should go the lazy route and just Bramble Rage or Thunderstorm. So while it may seem in a way archers can do the same role, they lack the shear number of ways a BM can deliver not only the same amount of damage, but more. Which I imagine is what the other archers were talking about.

When you diverge off of the idea of straight DPS (plus spark) by adding class skills, you can, of course, change the outcome of battle. Since this topic is purely 'Archer VS BM', you might as well lop off 20% of whatever target you're attacking with sharpened tooth.

Its a game of mental masturbastion, when it call comes down to it. There are too many variables to correctly postulate who can add more DPS as there are enough different configurations of Def, Mdef, evasion, PvP, TW, range... the list goes on. Fun to do, but pointless in terms of practicality.

Chezedude - Dreamweaver

We know that BM will do more damage with same refined fists in MOST cases, but like I said eariler, it not like we use fists the entire time.

PVP consists of both ranged and melee range combat and if you compare the ability of archers and BMs in both forms of combat, I think we can agree that a fist archer is much more flexible since there is little a BM can do to you from 20+ meters away. Since pvp is never only melee or ranged, both bow and fist are very useful at different times.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Barbs have horrible Mdef and are typically carrying catapults and in tiger form. The sage archer bow mastery does not apply to fists/claws. It is simply base damage of the weapon + gems & refines, modified by a small amount of strength to equip it. Sage/Demon BM fist masteries boost weapon attack by 75%. Surely 75 > 60, but a barb has far less mdef than pdef.

if i know then all sage melee weapon mastery give 90% and demon give 75%+1%crit..........

in tw i am not sure every archer go to cat puller and start use fist......

sorry but in tw have max 4-6 cat puller (depend what lv is that territory and if cata puller then still exremity poison + tanglire mine is cheap combo) and how many barb? and ofc not only tw exist and outside of tw and non cat puller mostly is in human form.

about mdef barb got more than la and in its maybe 10% difference so lets say i do 600 fire dmg with 50% absorb and bm do 900 pattack with 64% absorb. and we can add that info too, archer got 2 melee dmg skill until fist bm got alt, like attack speed increase or if sage then fire dmg or axe dragon what drastically increase ur dmg.

Tomiko - Heavens Tear

Is 5 atk/second the game's attack limit, or is it possible to achieve higher attack rate?

Telarith - Sanctuary

Tomiko - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Is 5 atk/second the game's attack limit, or is it possible to achieve higher attack rate?

5 APS is the known animation limitation that makes it the max for FIST's actual attack. Character screen can show more, but they still only attack 5 per second.

Also, everyone seems to have taken that and run with it, assuming everything has a max of 5 APS, even though all the other weapons have different animation sequences. Only fist/claws have a confirmation from sources who use them that they max at 5, no one knows for the other weapons.

Olba - Sanctuary

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

5 APS is the known animation limitation that makes it the max for FIST's actual attack. Character screen can show more, but they still only attack 5 per second.

Also, everyone seems to have taken that and run with it, assuming everything has a max of 5 APS, even though all the other weapons have different animation sequences. Only fist/claws have a confirmation from sources who use them that they max at 5, no one knows for the other weapons.

The same also applies to claws, though.

And no other weapon is capable of reaching or surpassing 5 atk/s, so whether the animation cap is 5 atk/s or not does not matter, you're not going to reach it anyway.

Dark_Fate - Harshlands

if u wanna be an op bm... got fist max interval et voila... i cant fight a true fist bm... gosh hh100+10 or cv claw+10 hurts even with my 9.2k hp buffed.. i die pretty fastb:sad