Assassins: Please stop using a bow to DD

2

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  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    XXKimikoXx - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Would knowing what to do include running away from the squad then when you get the chance going invisible or running around away from the squad till tank gains aggro?
    I've been wondering about that. Does Shadow Escape do anything in PvE? If it does, it seems like it would wipe any built-up aggro, so you could pop it halfway into a boss fight and start dishing out the damage as if you'd just joined the fight.
  • MANray_ - Sanctuary
    MANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    It's a Sin's call how to best manage aggro/handle AoE. How to optimize damage output remains a technical discussion amongst Sins, although i must say before bashing other methods (such as using bow) you need to come up with a better alternative... and prove it.
  • Tapion_ - Dreamweaver
    Tapion_ - Dreamweaver Posts: 388 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I've been wondering about that. Does Shadow Escape do anything in PvE? If it does, it seems like it would wipe any built-up aggro, so you could pop it halfway into a boss fight and start dishing out the damage as if you'd just joined the fight.

    Yeah it sheds all aggro from monsters under the stealth level, however if you're caught in an aoe your **** is now visible and has a big target on it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Celestyna - Heavens Tear
    Celestyna - Heavens Tear Posts: 629 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I asked my bf who has a sin to DD with is bow on bosses which I (as my veno) tank.

    reason being is if we have no cleric and herc cant hold agro to his 6+ crits in a row. At least if he is 20+ meters away i can atempt to stun/seal and bash him to keep him alive, while he has time to go invis/stop attacking
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sirrobert - Dreamweaver
    Sirrobert - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,395 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    losstarot wrote: »
    A DD needs to learn how to control aggro without gimping damage.

    Also, most of the times, a Sin is using a bow on mobs and non-AoE bosses.

    Eehm, the only way for a DD to control his aggro is by nerfing his dmg dude.
    Cause it's the massive dmg that steals the aggro, duh
    9 out of 10 voices in my head say I'm not crazy... the 10th is singing the music of tetris
  • _vincent - Dreamweaver
    _vincent - Dreamweaver Posts: 191 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I was going to say using a bow would help but obviously that's already been said....

    Anyways, I don't really know if this works but, why don't Assassin's use fists instead? I've seen archers do it but I don't know if it'll work for an Assassin. This lowers their damage but they can still DD fairly well I think.
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    _vincent - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Anyways, I don't really know if this works but, why don't Assassin's use fists instead? I've seen archers do it but I don't know if it'll work for an Assassin. This lowers their damage but they can still DD fairly well I think.

    Well, instead of fists, the assassin can simply use lower level daggers, so that (s)he can still use skills.

    Archers use fists mainly b/c we like to see crazy-fast attack animations. Otherwise, we'd just use lower level bows.
  • jaeseu
    jaeseu Posts: 420 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Honestly, I'd rather use a lower-level set of daggers, I think, if I think whoever is tanking can't hold aggro that well, so that way, I could still use some of my skills that would be helpful in a bossfight without having to have to go through the hassle of changing to other weapons such as fists or bows. However...if it's a boss that aoes hard up close...I think I'll use a nicely stated bow and try to stay away as far as possible lol.

    edit: Elenacostel beat me. xD
  • Iredyn - Sanctuary
    Iredyn - Sanctuary Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Frankly I could care less about the stats/facts and so forth...

    Any Sins (or Psys for that matter) who cannot maintain their roles & work as a team need to make their own squads & tank their own bosses.

    No... I don't care if they can't or whatever... I just don't care about the EXCUSES & sick of listening to it in squads.

    I don't care if they stand on their heads & spit quarters during a boss kill... as long as they stop **** up everything, whining & copping arrogant attitudes.

    I cringe when I see Tideborns in squad. And there is a history behind the reason why.
  • Vorawrcious - Harshlands
    Vorawrcious - Harshlands Posts: 53 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    losstarot wrote: »
    I was just referring to waiting a small bit for the tank to build aggro and then unleashing (even if its most technically still gimping) and knowing what to do if you take aggro.

    This is pretty much correct. Many times DDs in squad start hitting bosses before tank does or simutanious. Many times i have seen players start laying into the boss before its even lured back to the right spot. Or im trying to pull the boss back and theyre just hitting it like crazy after i say, "wait here, ill pull boss back to this safe spot. This can make it hard for barb to establish aggro sometimes. In my opinion other players should not hit the boss till tank has flesh ream attacked it twice or lets say about 15 to 20 seconds. Then you all can let loose with massive DD without much worry. You give me 20 seconds to fully establish aggro and i doubt even the mighty assassin could still aggro from me.
  • hallsvaporaction
    hallsvaporaction Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    My assassin switches to a bow even on mobs. That's right, even on mobs. When the pesky Trioc Tribesman (Zimo passage) runs away from the tank and jumps up the valley wall and the only way to still DD is at range, I don't want to stand around like the poor BM to wait for the tank to reposition and pull the mob back down or for one of the other squishies to eventually finish it off while I'm standing around waiting for tea and crumpets.

    Also, when my fire resistance is higher than my physical resistance, I see no problem with bow-tanking non-aoe bosses like Calcid and Drake. Especially if I'm traveling with an underpowered squad and the cleric would have trouble spamming IH on those bosses physical attack damage spikes, whereas an occasional purify and IH will make his/her work much easier.

    What about aoe bosses like Mantavip and Empyrean Slither? An assassin meleeing on either one will drag the cleric into aoe range, when a bow can easily keep the healer out of harms way (I know Slither only has aoe sleep and debuff, but a sleepy healer never helped anyone.)
  • Ussichu - Sanctuary
    Ussichu - Sanctuary Posts: 429 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Its been mentioned in one post before from what i read but I'll say it again:

    Sins can wipe their aggro with shadow escape. So they can dish DD as much as they want, once they steal aggro, shadow escape and voila their aggro has reset so now they can DD as if they never hit the boss.

    If anything, sins have to control their DD the least as long as they can survive the aggro steal to shadow escape in time (hello deaden nerves ^_^)
    Navarre was your everyday veno, until she learned her true form. Now she's fox walloping and purging over and over again.. all for a deep stinging, head hunting, wind pushing Assassin. Will there be inner harmony and myriad rainbows? But of course! Yuri&Lemon Find it on Fanfiction XD "Discovering Sanctuary" Chapter 2 is up ^_^
  • Shade - Raging Tide
    Shade - Raging Tide Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Ussichu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Its been mentioned in one post before from what i read but I'll say it again:

    Sins can wipe their aggro with shadow escape. So they can dish DD as much as they want, once they steal aggro, shadow escape and voila their aggro has reset so now they can DD as if they never hit the boss.

    If anything, sins have to control their DD the least as long as they can survive the aggro steal to shadow escape in time (hello deaden nerves ^_^)

    Enough of this, seriously people. Shadow Escape has a 60 second cooldown alright? With a bad tank even after shadow escape I can pull aggro in 5-10 seconds, and with a good tank I pull aggro in 10-20 seconds, I have only met 1 super great fantastic tank I couldn't pull aggro from if I wanted to. It isn't hard for sins to pull aggro, so using bows is acceptable on bosses in my opinion, however on mobs, there is only one good reason to use a bow, and that is if they are ranged mob that you have aggro on and you can't keep it still long enough to kill it (shadow tele + headhunter + tackling slash this shouldn't happen too much)

    If people weren't idiots and could learn to play their classes there would be very few QQ threads. Honestly there isn't a hard class in PvE in this or most any game, the hardest is the cleric imo, at least if they are any good...
  • XHappyBunnyx - Sanctuary
    XHappyBunnyx - Sanctuary Posts: 683 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    sure, and lets tell archers to stop using fist/claws. We'll be having none of these classes using weapons not designed for their classes.. none of it!

    i dont care if sins use a bow, it has its uses, and its a smarter sin for making use of a bow.
    Q - How to win on Perfect World?
    A - Throw money at it.
  • _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary
    _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,294 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    losstarot wrote: »
    A DD needs to learn how to control aggro without gimping damage.

    Also, most of the times, a Sin is using a bow on mobs and non-AoE bosses.

    What the heck?

    Maybe a sin can shadow escape, but it has a long cooldown. Damage builds agro. And high damage builds it pretty damn fast, ask any endgame fist bm. Therefore gimping DPS is the only real method to control agro.

    If you know a method to consistently control your agro and still manage to deal your maximum potential DPS.... I'm all for hearing it. O_o

    Archers also frequently use fists on certain bosses or with certain tanks too. Same reason. They don't want to steal agro.
  • Alliptica - Raging Tide
    Alliptica - Raging Tide Posts: 1,545 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    i like using a bowb:pleased
    -retired-

    now playing megaten and...Forsaken World ;)
  • kotarofuuma
    kotarofuuma Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    there is one way.. but still its kinda gimping ur damage.. Chill of the Deep.. but IMO this is one annoying 10min buff for an assassin..
  • Tapion_ - Dreamweaver
    Tapion_ - Dreamweaver Posts: 388 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    wen u have no way to keep ur mana up its annoying, if you keep mana up you can deal even more damage because it doesnt affect skill speed
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Airyll - Dreamweaver
    Airyll - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,882 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Sorry, not 1 dex per level, but 1 dex per 2 levels.

    I am unsure how he only has 100 more damage than you, given that he has 30+ over you. Could you post your build and your friend's build at http://pwcalc.ru/pwi ? The answer can be found through that.

    EDIT EDIT



    1) As you said, when you wait, you are still gimping damage.

    2) When you steal aggro, you stop attacking. This is also gimping damage, even if it is momentarily.

    From what I can tell of your statements, you are unable to deal 100% of your damage, thus you are gimping your damage. Did I miss something?

    As a DD, every class has to gimp and control their damage or they will steal. Archers included.

    Why are you so determined to find out why or how an Assassin has to gimp when they have to do it exactly the same way that you do/did have to sometimes? It seems like a pointless argument when you should already know exactly how a DD will control their damage so as not to steal.

    On a related note, and this is aimed at the OP, there is nothing wrong with Sins using a bow. They can still DD on AoE bosses they can't regularly attack this way, and it also means they can help snag mobs like the Harpies in FC.
    What was your problem again?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Ranfa - Dreamweaver
    Ranfa - Dreamweaver Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I don't see what's wrong with using a bow. I use a bow on my Assassin because sometimes it's just more effective than using daggers at close range or running around places trying to support attack squadmates. If it allows them to be more creative in their ways to DD, I don't see why you have to tell them to stop doing it.
  • losstarot
    losstarot Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Users seem to be ignoring this part...
    losstarot wrote: »
    Yes, a bow does have uses on a Sin, such as prevent damage incremental AoE (although it's useless on regular AoE , since most hit farther than 20 meters and does the same damage regardless of distance), exploding mobs, and getting enemy aggression early; however, damage dealing is not one of them and makes to looks pretty foolish.
  • Airyll - Dreamweaver
    Airyll - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,882 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    losstarot wrote: »
    Users seem to be ignoring this part...

    And you seem to be ignoring what everybody is telling you.

    If a Sin is using a bow they're probably using it to gimp their damage for a bit while still doing something, keeping out an AoE or - like in FC with the harpies - taking down mobs they wouldn't normally reach.

    If a Sin is using a bow 24/7/365 then yes, alright, perhaps you have a point. But then again, if you're squadding with a Sin like that, you must be the first person to do so. I've never been in a squad with a Sin who only ever uses a bow.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DaWoman - Dreamweaver
    DaWoman - Dreamweaver Posts: 49 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    In FC facing those damn harpies, I'ma bowbarian and proud of it :D revenge is mine! >.< b:chuckle
  • losstarot
    losstarot Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    And you seem to be ignoring what everybody is telling you.

    If a Sin is using a bow they're probably using it to gimp their damage for a bit while still doing something, keeping out an AoE or - like in FC with the harpies - taking down mobs they wouldn't normally reach.

    If a Sin is using a bow 24/7/365 then yes, alright, perhaps you have a point. But then again, if you're squadding with a Sin like that, you must be the first person to do so. I've never been in a squad with a Sin who only ever uses a bow.

    Again, I have said that bows are good for certain AoEs and for ranged enemies, but every other squad I'm in has a Sin that constantly/always uses a bow on the mere fact that it "does more damage."
  • Escorian - Dreamweaver
    Escorian - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,802 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    now people bring up the point that a sin can just use shadow escape and boom agro is gone this is so incorrect.

    1 shadow escape cooldown is 60 seconds
    2 shadow escape only works if the boss is not 30+ lvls higher then you
    3 how do you plan on using it on tt bosses?

    *edit why dont you check out this thread http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=637232
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ty Nowitsawn

    Everything has its beginnings, but it doesn't start at one. It starts long before that... The world is born From zero. The moment zero becomes one is the moment the world springs to life. One becomes 2. 2 becomes 10. 10 becomes 100. taking it all back to one solves nothing. so long as zero remains... One.. Will eventually grow to 100 again.
  • Airyll - Dreamweaver
    Airyll - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,882 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    losstarot wrote: »
    Again, I have said that bows are good for certain AoEs and for ranged enemies, but every other squad I'm in has a Sin that constantly/always uses a bow on the mere fact that it "does more damage."

    Then you are squadding with failure Sins.

    That doesn't mean they're all like that though. Maybe you should consider that the majority of sins actually know to use daggers before you just bang them all into "You all use bows to DD, you suck" group, yeah?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • losstarot
    losstarot Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Then you are squadding with failure Sins.

    That doesn't mean they're all like that though. Maybe you should consider that the majority of sins actually know to use daggers before you just bang them all into "You all use bows to DD, you suck" group, yeah?

    Did I say that ALL Sins that use bows/aren't using daggers are terrible? I'm saying that I often see some Sins primarily using bows because they think those are better than daggers.

    Don't imply words that were never said.
  • Airyll - Dreamweaver
    Airyll - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,882 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    losstarot wrote: »
    Did I say that ALL Sins that use bows/aren't using daggers are terrible? I'm saying that I often see some Sins primarily using bows because they think those are better than daggers.

    Don't imply words that were never said.

    Read your topic title.

    Then tell me if you weren't practically accusing all assassins of using a bow to DD.

    b:bye
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Latentkarma - Lost City
    Latentkarma - Lost City Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    losstarot wrote: »
    Did I say that ALL Sins that use bows/aren't using daggers are terrible? I'm saying that I often see some Sins primarily using bows because they think those are better than daggers.

    Don't imply words that were never said.

    Ross Perot / losstarot

    Successful Businessman / Successful Troll

    Nuff said.
  • losstarot
    losstarot Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Read your topic title.

    Then tell me if you weren't practically accusing all assassins of using a bow to DD.

    b:bye

    Did I say or strongly imply that all Sins are like this? I said I that I've seen more than a handful do this and they oftentimes believe that a bow is superior.

    Latentkarma - Lost City wrote: »
    Ross Perot / losstarot

    Successful Businessman / Successful Troll

    Nuff said.

    Who? Also, yet another person that does not know what that word means, but I digress...

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