Heavy Veno's?

2

Comments

  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Pure Mag Wizards get scraps from TT, they have to delicately grind or rack up costs. They have to work harder and longer to get comparable stats / equips. So maybe compare the amount of effort put into each class when comparing because for the same amount of effort: veno pulls ahead.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary
    Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary Posts: 914 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    What spell modifiers? -clarify.

    My build on a wiz, matk:
    7832-8990
    My build on veno, matk:
    7583-8741
    My build with 100mag reallocated to vit on a veno (vit arcane):
    6373-7346

    Check yourself:
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=f560833e47739f54
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=21c42c9cbaa68256
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=637e1386607e1779

    Should I dig up the post where you trivialized the difference in matk between vit and pure mag veno?

    On paper comparing a pure magic veno to a pure magic wizard will appear to have the same magic attack. But factor in spell damage and wizards do more damage than a veno.

    wiz
    7832-8990 average magic attack 8411
    veno
    7583-8741 average magic attack 8162

    Average damage of wiz's hardest hitting skill (black ice dragon strike) lvl 10
    8411+500% of wep damage= 8416 + 9648.9= 18,064.9

    Average damage of veno's hardest hitting skill. parasitic nova lvl 10
    8162+ 300% of wep damage = 8165 + 4564.9 = 12,720.9

    5,344 difference in damage.
    >.<
  • Serinregis - Lost City
    Serinregis - Lost City Posts: 166 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary wrote: »
    On paper comparing a pure magic veno to a pure magic wizard will appear to have the same magic attack. But factor in spell damage and wizards do more damage than a veno.

    wiz
    7832-8990 average magic attack 8411
    veno
    7583-8741 average magic attack 8162

    Average damage of wiz's hardest hitting skill (black ice dragon strike) lvl 10
    8411+500% of wep damage= 8416 + 9648.9= 18,064.9

    Average damage of veno's hardest hitting skill. parasitic nova lvl 10
    8162+ 300% of wep damage = 8165 + 4564.9 = 12,720.9

    5,344 difference in damage.

    Another thing to add in there is the difference between our debuffs, wizzies with undine for 60% less base water def, and venos with demon venomous for 30% less base wood def.

    And the difference grows even more b:cry
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    b:dirtyb:dirtyb:dirty
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary wrote: »
    On paper comparing a pure magic veno to a pure magic wizard will appear to have the same magic attack. But factor in spell damage and wizards do more damage than a veno.

    wiz
    7832-8990 average magic attack 8411
    veno
    7583-8741 average magic attack 8162

    Average damage of wiz's hardest hitting skill (black ice dragon strike) lvl 10
    8411+500% of wep damage= 8416 + 9648.9= 18,064.9

    Average damage of veno's hardest hitting skill. parasitic nova lvl 10
    8162+ 300% of wep damage = 8165 + 4564.9 = 12,720.9

    5,344 difference in damage.

    Neither can be done right after sage/demon spark, wiz takes 4 secs to channel while veno takes 3, Nova factors 300% of weapon dmg, while BIDS factors 275%, and the lasting effect from Nova is arguably better.

    It's not as simple as looking at highest dmg spells and their avg output.
    Serinregis - Lost City wrote: »
    Another thing to add in there is the difference between our debuffs, wizzies with undine for 60% less base water def, and venos with demon venomous for 30% less base wood def.

    And the difference grows even more b:cry

    Undine Strike:
    Channel 1 second
    Cast 0.5 second
    -No dmg on it's own! That time lost takes a while to be made up especially on barbs that favor hp over mdef.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • axt57
    axt57 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    BIDS factors in 500% at lvl10; 275% at lvl1.

    But imo spam skills should be compared, not the ulti DDs.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary
    Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary Posts: 914 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Serinregis - Lost City wrote: »
    Another thing to add in there is the difference between our debuffs, wizzies with undine for 60% less base water def, and venos with demon venomous for 30% less base wood def.

    And the difference grows even more b:cry

    True, but i did this based on lvl 10 skills for easy reference. I'm not sure if i did it right though. but basically I took the average number added in Xxx% to equal Xxxx (random number) + skill damage addon Xxxx (random number)

    example 1123+500%= 1128+ 450= 1578
    >.<
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    axt57 wrote: »
    BIDS factors in 500% at lvl10; 275% at lvl1.

    But imo spam skills should be compared, not the ulti DDs.

    ooops b:surrender
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Serinregis - Lost City
    Serinregis - Lost City Posts: 166 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    Neither can be done right after sage/demon spark, wiz takes 4 secs to channel while veno takes 3, Nova factors 300% of weapon dmg, while BIDS factors 275%, and the lasting effect from Nova is arguably better.

    It's not as simple as looking at highest dmg spells and their avg output.



    Undine Strike:
    Channel 1 second
    Cast 0.5 second
    -No dmg on it's own! That time lost takes a while to be made up especially on barbs that favor hp over mdef.

    hmm good point b:pleased

    and venomous has:
    1.5 channeling
    1.0 cast

    so actually, both combos take 5.5 seconds in total b:shocked (not factoring in cast times for nova and bids because i dunno them >___>)

    And i agree that nova has a better effect (super long seal + freeze = win), especially with demon nova.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    b:dirtyb:dirtyb:dirty
  • Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary
    Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary Posts: 914 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Serinregis - Lost City wrote: »
    Another thing to add in there is the difference between our debuffs, wizzies with undine for 60% less base water def, and venos with demon venomous for 30% less base wood def.

    And the difference grows even more b:cry
    tweakz wrote: »
    Neither can be done right after sage/demon spark, wiz takes 4 secs to channel while veno takes 3, Nova factors 300% of weapon dmg, while BIDS factors 275%, and the lasting effect from Nova is arguably better.

    It's not as simple as looking at highest dmg spells and their avg output.

    I didnt factor in sage or demon sparks, just the base of what the skill would usually hit unsparked. however you can double spark these skills when you have 3 sparks (i.e. chi pots)

    wiz magic attack 7832-8990 double sparked 12836-14734 average damage 13785
    veno magic attack 7583-8741 double sparked 12587-14485 average damage 13536

    black ice dragon strike double sparked.
    13 785+500% of wep damage= 13 790 + 9648.9= 23, 438.9

    double sparked parasitic nova
    13 536 + 300% of wep damage = 13 539 + 4564.9 = 18, 103.9

    But let's factor in some skills that channel faster Gush vs Venomous Scarab (not sparked, at lvl 10)

    wiz
    7832-8990 average magic attack 8411

    veno
    7583-8741 average magic attack 8162

    Gush lvl 10

    8411 +100 % = 8412 + 1372.6 = 9784.6 average spell damage

    1.0 sec channel 1.0 sec cast 3.0 sec cooldown

    Venomous Scarab lvl 10

    8162 + 100% + 8163 + 966 = 9129 average spell damage.

    1.5 sec channel 1.0 sec cast, 1.0 sec cooldown

    Also to compare Pyrogram lvl 10

    8411 + 100% = 8412 + 1379.6 = 9791.6 average spell damage

    EDIT: indeed venomous scarab is more spammable, but alterating gush and pyrogram does more damage than spamming venomous scarab

    I'm also not factoring in sage/demon add ons, or debuffs on said mob/ boss simply because i havent figured out how to do that, but i can give you a base number of what the skill would hit.
    >.<
  • WaffleChan - Sanctuary
    WaffleChan - Sanctuary Posts: 2,897 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Neither can be done right after sage/demon spark, wiz takes 4 secs to channel while veno takes 3, Nova factors 300% of weapon dmg, while BIDS factors 275%, and the lasting effect from Nova is arguably better.
    sage wizards triple spark black ice dragon all the time... it also adds in 500% not 275%

    all wizard spells hit harder than venos, sutra combos widen that gap, wizards can one shot barbs, venos cant, case closed.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    advice to fledgling archers:
    Going sage is like drunken sex, at first she may look good, but when you wake up the next morning; you'll look at her and go WHAT HAVE I DONE.
  • Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary
    Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary Posts: 914 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »
    sage wizards triple spark black ice dragon all the time... it also adds in 500% not 275%

    all wizard spells hit harder than venos, sutra combos widen that gap, wizards can one shot barbs, venos cant, case closed.

    ^agreed this is exactly what i was trying to factor in. You can't just look at a piece of paper and say "oh they have the same magic attack, so they're gonna be hitting out the same numbers." You have to factor in the spell damage of the skills too.
    >.<
  • WaffleChan - Sanctuary
    WaffleChan - Sanctuary Posts: 2,897 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=5480032&postcount=72 exactly|:
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    advice to fledgling archers:
    Going sage is like drunken sex, at first she may look good, but when you wake up the next morning; you'll look at her and go WHAT HAVE I DONE.
  • Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary
    Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary Posts: 914 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    But if you wanna compare any veno's spell damage to the average 10x wiz's spell damage. Compare it the the veno who has a +11 Sirabansho on sanc, I'm pretty sure if shes pure, her magic attack is an estimate of 12.5k-13k a pop unbuffed
    >.<
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I didnt factor in sage or demon sparks, just the base of what the skill would usually hit unsparked. however you can double spark these skills when you have 3 sparks (i.e. chi pots)
    Sparks are largely immaterial to this debate. All they do is increase your base magic attack. AFAIK, all damage spells top out at "100% base magic attack + something" (instead of say 150% base magic attack). So all sparks do is add a fixed amount of damage to each spell (assuming same base magic attack).

    In other words, if the wiz spell is hitting for 5k more damage than the veno spell when both are unsparked, the wiz spell will still hit for 5k more damage than the veno sepll when both are sparked.

    Edit: Looking at it again, it seems Wiz Sage/Demon spark adds 700% to magic attack. Veno Demon spark adds 700%, but Sage spark adds 900%. It seems Sage venos are the only casters who get that extra 200%. More fuel for the fire.
  • Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary
    Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary Posts: 914 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Sparks are largely immaterial to this debate. All they do is increase your base magic attack. AFAIK, all damage spells top out at "100% base magic attack + something" (instead of say 150% base magic attack). So all sparks do is add a fixed amount of damage to each spell (assuming same base magic attack).

    In other words, if the wiz spell is hitting for 5k more damage than the veno spell when both are unsparked, the wiz spell will still hit for 5k more damage than the veno sepll when both are sparked.

    Edit: Looking at it again, it seems Wiz Sage/Demon spark adds 700% to magic attack. Veno Demon spark adds 700%, but Sage spark adds 900%. It seems Sage venos are the only casters who get that extra 200%. More fuel for the fire.

    Well, as said before, i havent really figured out how to do this. I'm going based off adding numbers and %s but my calculations could be wrong. I'm surprised i took the time to try and factor this out, cause most of the time, im not good at mathematical concepts like these
    >.<
  • WaffleChan - Sanctuary
    WaffleChan - Sanctuary Posts: 2,897 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    im sure it works like such:

    ( 1 + ( MAG / 100 ) + spark ) * ( lvl + equips ) * mastery as a multiplier (1.2 for demon, 1.25 for sage)
    which will probably yield different numbers for either class.

    saying they do 5k more will still do 5k more in spark sounds unrealistic.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    advice to fledgling archers:
    Going sage is like drunken sex, at first she may look good, but when you wake up the next morning; you'll look at her and go WHAT HAVE I DONE.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »
    all wizard spells hit harder than venos, sutra combos widen that gap, wizards can one shot barbs, venos cant, case closed.

    Untrue. Noxious gas for instance does more dmg than Pyrogram and does additional DoT. Wizards may have Sutra, but they're slow on foot and we have stun, sage spark, nova. Sutra takes 2 sparks only lasts 6 seconds, and takes 60 seconds to cool down so it can easily be wasted (on genie invulnerability skill as well).

    I think you're failing to show how veno mag is a joke compared to wiz, and leaving out the capabilities of our pets (pounce, howl, flesh ream, bash, etc) which work on a separate timer. Strategies can be used to bypass pets getting one hit (halt, range, tough).

    We could go on and on making this more complicated and getting into the channel vs cast times combined with -ch gear, Myriad Rainbows that take no channel/cast time, how we have multiple DOTs, but I think it's already been made clear that veno mag is no joke. It's just a joke for vit arcanes.

    There's many reasons I stopped playing Wiz and took up a Veno, and for the topic's sake: HA veno > Pure Mag Wiz.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • WaffleChan - Sanctuary
    WaffleChan - Sanctuary Posts: 2,897 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    lol? are you serious... are you ****ing serious?

    lets look at spells like:
    glacial snare level 10:
    Launch multiple ice arrows at the enemy to trap them in an
    ice prison causing Water damage equal to base magic damage
    plus 300% of weapon damage plus 4880.1.


    sandstorm 10:
    Project a powerful wave of sand onto a target. Inflicts Earth
    damage equal to base magic attack plus 300% of weapon
    damage plus 4288.4 and decreases enemy's accuracy by 50%

    stone rain 10:
    A gigantic rock slams onto the target inflicting Earth damage
    equal to base magic attack plus 200% of weapon
    damage plus 2119.4.

    veno magic attack IS a joke, clerics ou damage you, wizards out damage you. noxious... come on, thats not even an argument.

    pure mag wizards with your mixed citrines/garnets can still have more def than you, pure garnets can even go into HA like defenses... seriously, wizards are overpowered end game beasts that make you and your silly veno look like garbage.

    wait till you find one with maifest virtue... jeez then you can eat your words when they one shot you with even with your magic def you oh so love to brag about.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    advice to fledgling archers:
    Going sage is like drunken sex, at first she may look good, but when you wake up the next morning; you'll look at her and go WHAT HAVE I DONE.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »
    lol? are you serious... are you ****ing serious?

    lets look at spells like:
    glacial snare level 10:
    Launch multiple ice arrows at the enemy to trap them in an
    ice prison causing Water damage equal to base magic damage
    plus 300% of weapon damage plus 4880.1.

    Ridiculous Channel/cast time!

    Frost Scarab:
    Throw an icy bug at the enemy, inflicting Wood damage equal
    to base magic damage plus 100% of weapon damage plus
    3296.1. Has a 80% chance to inflict frostbite
    on the target, causing it to suffer 3296.1 water
    damage over 9 seconds and decreasing speed by 40%.
    sandstorm 10:
    Project a powerful wave of sand onto a target. Inflicts Earth
    damage equal to base magic attack plus 300% of weapon
    damage plus 4288.4 and decreases enemy's accuracy by 50%

    Nova:
    Inflicts
    Wood damage equal to base magic damage plus 300% of weapon
    damage plus 4564.9. Has a 67% chance to make them chaotic for
    8.0 seconds, in which they are unable to move or attack.
    stone rain 10:
    A gigantic rock slams onto the target inflicting Earth damage
    equal to base magic attack plus 200% of weapon
    damage plus 2119.4
    .

    Noxious:
    A large disease ridden toxic parasite attacks the target
    causing it and all enemies 9.0 meters around
    it to suffer Wood damage equal to base magic damage plus
    200% of weapon damage plus 1501.4.
    Enemies will also suffer 1501.4 Wood damage over 9 seconds.

    veno magic attack IS a joke,

    You aka TearValerin are a joke. b:chuckle

    pure mag wizards with your mixed citrines/garnets can still have more def than you, pure garnets can even go into HA like defenses... seriously, wizards are overpowered end game beasts that make you and your silly veno look like garbage.

    Stone Barrier is no better than Fox Form, Feral, Bramblehood / genie skills.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary
    Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary Posts: 914 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I think the point tweakz is trying to get across is that wizards are only good for DDing, where as venos (no matter if your build is pure mag/vit arcane/LA/ or HA/AA hybrid) are there to debuff, DD with pet and youself. Also another point is that, our debuffs are what make the other classes hit higher. but, also a veno with a pet (good DD pet ofc) is the best boss DD in TT.
    >.<
  • kenlee
    kenlee Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    nobody take into consideration Undine Strike? that skill lower your mdef by 60%
    anyway, instead of theory you can practice of pservers. its all the same thing except not last updates but there is a reason that popular classs are wizard/archers/blademasters. there you have all the gear much faster and all skills, go test it and see what venos will do...
    Hhlolz - Harshlands wrote: »
    Wizards are way too weak, the only thing they can do is 1 shot nix, with +10 weap that is.
    if you are arcane build they just hit way too low.

    About hybrid HA build, it is the best build for veno, lol @ the person saying that Hybrid HA veno has low mdef, its still 5-6k unbuffed, metal attacks from archer wont hurt that much.

    oh and, LA is a joke for those who didnt want to believe.
    wizards are weak? play one and upgrade your earth shield, thats alot of physical defence combined with physical ornaments and garnets shards. hybrid HA/AA has same mdef as LA and higher pdef than LA but still not as good as vit arcane. 5-6k mdef is low, undine strike will lower your defences even more.
  • Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary
    Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary Posts: 914 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I'm just wondering, why are we talking about wizards when the original topic was about HA venos. I know i contributed some of the thought, but i didn't start it. Anyways, can we get back to the original topic?
    >.<
  • kenlee
    kenlee Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    well, because it was about pvp and wizards kill HA way too fast
    anyway, i dont see any benefits from HA except pve
    no build is perfect but if you invest enough in AA like you want it to do for HA, you will get a more well rounded build as vit AA
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    kenlee wrote: »
    nobody take into consideration Undine Strike? that skill lower your mdef by 60%
    anyway, instead of theory you can practice of pservers. its all the same thing except not last updates but there is a reason that popular classs are wizard/archers/blademasters. there you have all the gear much faster and all skills, go test it and see what venos will do...

    I regret getting Undine Strike since it appeared to raise aggro towards me while not appearing to help me kill faster (would be different in a Wiz squad for TW, but then only one wiz needs it). It also consumes a lot of MP. Again, not many shard with saphires either.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary
    Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary Posts: 914 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    kenlee wrote: »
    well, because it was about pvp and wizards kill HA way too fast
    anyway, i dont see any benefits from HA except pve

    Sorta agree, it's good for pvp from what i hear too, but in pvp i guess it's not you vs that person but your gear vs that person's gear. but i think ppl fail to see that this build works for pve also.
    >.<
  • SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver
    SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver Posts: 284 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I changed to Heavy/Arcane build at lvl 73(from LA) and its wokring great compared to my old build. Higher phy attack, higher defense in both phy and mag, and still got decent damage dealing. I use a tabby plumdrop, and at a wraith attack I got to compare it to an arcane veno with a rock. Since both my pet and myself have decent attack rates, numbers keep flying. And in the end my damage per second exeeded my arcane friend, since every mag attack uses seconds to cast, while melee is faster(even tho the damage is lower, it adds up). We were both using the same weapon(Sakyamunis light), but with different shards(mine had 2 perfect garnets). So in PvE the build works great(for me at least).

    Its versatile since you can change from using phy attacks to magic, and if you got two sets of gear you can also change your def from high phy def to high mag def.

    Ive also heard that if you break a weapon you can use it when going back to fox form. Then if you repair it, you still get the damage from melee mastery. However you wouldnt be able to use any skills in fox form, or change back to human form without relogging or destroying the weapon again.
    No I dont have a herc, I AM the herc! b:mischievous

    Youtube channel for NW vids: /channel/UCV9DguJZ0LGMlv5IorA5kVg

    Please do drop by n tell me hints on how to improve c:
    Current build for pwcalc: /bd6d5c1459cf7d94
  • WaffleChan - Sanctuary
    WaffleChan - Sanctuary Posts: 2,897 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    I regret getting Undine Strike since it appeared to raise aggro towards me while not appearing to help me kill faster (would be different in a Wiz squad for TW, but then only one wiz needs it). It also consumes a lot of MP. Again, not many shard with saphires either.
    undine doesnt affect aggro, unless youre spamming spells like a tard just asking to die.

    it makes killing in PVE/PVP alot quicker. mp is an insignificant stat, especially with a class that has a skill that can raise their maximum to 12k+
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    advice to fledgling archers:
    Going sage is like drunken sex, at first she may look good, but when you wake up the next morning; you'll look at her and go WHAT HAVE I DONE.
  • kenlee
    kenlee Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    i see lvl 100 mages with 16k+ mp not 12k
    and they also have mana regen shield for pve, cant ask more than that
  • Regenbogen - Lost City
    Regenbogen - Lost City Posts: 1,559 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    got pked by a heavy veno...
    i mean by her nix fleshream since she dealt max 700damage...
    and she had a neon purgatory +8...

    is heavy veno magic damage really that bad or was this veno just kinda fail?

    edit: asked a ha veno with purgatory+5 to hit me...1.1k quite ok...
    i am waiting for you my little flagcarriers b:kiss
  • Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary
    Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary Posts: 914 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Regenbogen - Lost City wrote: »
    got pked by a heavy veno...
    i mean by her nix fleshream since she dealt max 700damage...
    and she had a neon purgatory +8...

    is heavy veno magic damage really that bad or was this veno just kinda fail?

    seems like she used magic on you when you're probably wearing robes. Her mellee damage would hurt your more if that was the case.
    >.<

Categories