a Sins potential endgame DPS.

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  • DrkLordZ - Sanctuary
    DrkLordZ - Sanctuary Posts: 297 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    i still believe a fist can dd better. full set of tt99 LA is like -.3 and lunar robe and love up and down is another -.1. with hell spark, it would add up to almost 4 a sec. Dont forget that there are tt90 zerk fists and la bms have a great crit rate. so get 1 cleric so the bm dont kill him self lol. if you can find a way for this to get 5/sec, it would definetly out damage sins 5/sec.
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  • Ballistixz - Heavens Tear
    Ballistixz - Heavens Tear Posts: 690 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    la fist BMs still wont have no where near the crit rate and crit power nor dmg power of a sin =/ simply because a sin gets both crit rate and damage all from one stat. they dont have to do a even split between str and dex and vit like a fist BM does.

    a fist bm wont be able to over come that.

    to sum it all up both a sin and fist BM can both get 5 atk/sec. but a sin will be doing more criticals, higher normal dmg, and higher crit dmg then a fist BM.
  • Asperitas - Lost City
    Asperitas - Lost City Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    DrkLordZ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    i still believe a fist can dd better. full set of tt99 LA is like -.3 and lunar robe and love up and down is another -.1. with hell spark, it would add up to almost 4 a sec. Dont forget that there are tt90 zerk fists and la bms have a great crit rate. so get 1 cleric so the bm dont kill him self lol. if you can find a way for this to get 5/sec, it would definetly out damage sins 5/sec.

    Being LA means either:

    1. You stat so much dex you don't have enough str for HA
    2. You stat 3:2 every level, but you choose to use LA.

    Either one is not a good option because:

    1. Your strength is significantly lowered, and because fist damage is reliant on your strength, you're giving up a lot of damage. What this becomes is pretty much a fist-archer with fist mastery. You also don't have LA rank top to give you a natural 5 attacks/second.

    2. You don't have a high natural crit rate, and you die way to easy. Anybody, be it magic or melee can kill you. LA offers lower HP per refine, low-mediocre PDef and low-mediocre MDef. And endgame, mediocrity just doesn't cut it. Why use LA when you can use HA?

    Assuming sins are capable of 5 attacks/second, I will concede that sins will outdps fist BMs. They are buffing one stat, they have higher crit, higher damage and the same attack speed. That's something we can't deny.

    But it's not like BMs are inferior just because of that. Can sins take as many hits as a BM? Can sins AOE like a BM? There's things both sides can and can't do. DPS isnt the sole decider of superiority or inferiority.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Death_Tide - Heavens Tear
    Death_Tide - Heavens Tear Posts: 39 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    DrkLordZ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    i still believe a fist can dd better. full set of tt99 LA is like -.3 and lunar robe and love up and down is another -.1. with hell spark, it would add up to almost 4 a sec. Dont forget that there are tt90 zerk fists and la bms have a great crit rate. so get 1 cleric so the bm dont kill him self lol. if you can find a way for this to get 5/sec, it would definetly out damage sins 5/sec.

    Trust me...Sins can do a better job at DDing than fist BMs any day. We have way better crit rate than LA BMs...and besides LA BM is just pure fail. They are going to get destroyed by other BMs, and even marrows won't do anything to help much.

    TT90 zerk fists are also very very bad. You'll drain your life sooner than the opponent's.
  • Wiz_Oz - Lost City
    Wiz_Oz - Lost City Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    all i know is 1v 1 against a fist BM i'll Ribstrike that SOB and show him some real crit hell...lolz
  • Divine_Death - Dreamweaver
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,491 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

    ocoult ice is not >.< it locks the target in place and from my experiance has never prevented skill useage

    Has someone used a skill on you when they were under Occult Ice? They have never for me. Roar, Demon Spark, Occult Ice, punch. Kills none HAs in the upper 90s range. I'm sure clerics were spamming sleep or Plume Shield during Occult Ice when I sparked right in front of them, yet none of them ever did anything.
    Wiz_Oz - Lost City wrote: »
    all i know is 1v 1 against a fist BM i'll Ribstrike that SOB and show him some real crit hell...lolz

    Yeah Ribstrike hurts the DPS quite a bit. Though Will of B prevents it, given that you haven't hit a BM with it already. You wouldn't think it would, but it did protect me from the slow attack effect when I was fighting Soulhunter.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Closing this for excess letter Q's" - hawk
  • Kristoph - Lost City
    Kristoph - Lost City Posts: 2,016 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    morty is joshcja's alt
    Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.
  • skyxiii
    skyxiii Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    Leave him alone guys. Spike dmg & dps both have their uses.

    DPS pewpew vs HA.

    Tbh, using skills, a sin can easily get at least 10 skills off on an opponent while keeping them stunned/sealed/slept the entire time without genie skills, barring potions. I'm not sure because I haven't done higher level pvp yet, but could some one tell me whether this is enough to put an arcane down?



    Topic is about potential sin endgame dps though. I think I saw a video of some godly archer dealing like 10k/hit on instance wraiths with fists. If we sins can match at least 10k/hit endgame pve, at hit 5x a sec, isn't that like, at least 1k life regained every second o.o?
  • Nightwhisper - Harshlands
    Nightwhisper - Harshlands Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    to gain 1k hp per second you need to deal 50k damage per second (or 10k hits every 0.2 seconds, as you said). Combine that with rib strike you have end game assassins potentially being the best soloist out there. one drawback is that assassins are unlikely to got 5 attacks per second unless they go demon therefor they will not get the 25% damage reduction of sage spark.
  • Firefeng - Dreamweaver
    Firefeng - Dreamweaver Posts: 421 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    to gain 1k hp per second you need to deal 50k damage per second (or 10k hits every 0.2 seconds, as you said).

    Quadruple that to 200k per second, because that's what you'd need to restore 1k HP on [?] bosses. Still, considering my faction has an Archer that likes to solo 2-3 squad mode and Nirvana with fists, I think there's a pretty good chance we'll start seeing high-end Assassins soloing some of the harder instances.
    [SIGPIC]http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=5129096004&dateline=1267246196[/SIGPIC]
  • UltraStatic - Raging Tide
    UltraStatic - Raging Tide Posts: 69 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    all i am saying is that when the poor lil fist bm is standing all along in the open. i will go into stelth mode get right next to him and befor he knows it he will be dead. and the best part he wont even see it comming.
    It wasn't me!
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  • BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear
    BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear Posts: 249 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    ummm what are u a god?....since when do u think we can overcome a HA with charm? or did u think he'll just stand there and watch how ur killing him.....it might work on LA/AA but not on HA...only a lucky crit with him debuffed could manage that and still its mostly luck
    [SIGPIC]http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=4646770002&dateline=1263479136[/SIGPIC]
  • UltraStatic - Raging Tide
    UltraStatic - Raging Tide Posts: 69 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    i have beatin my fair share of HA. the best win i would say was the barb that was 8 lvls higher than me. just bc you are HA does not mean that your god.

    and i also didn't say i was gonna 1 hit him. eather.
    It wasn't me!
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  • panda119
    panda119 Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    i always thought sins would outdmg fist bms.. but looking at the endgame weaps, eg frost n lunar daggers.. im beginning to doubt it.. the stats are highly inferior to e other lunar weaps.

    the lunar dagger proc gives hp back n its +hp.. why cant it even have -0.05 interval or something? lol

    just my 2cents :P
  • BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear
    BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear Posts: 249 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    i have beatin my fair share of HA. the best win i would say was the barb that was 8 lvls higher than me. just bc you are HA does not mean that your god.

    first of all i was talking bout charmed HAs. and a barb charmed with shards is pretty much unbeatable unless we crit a lot(we can but its unlikely that he will let us given hes not stupid) as for u beating a barb 8 lvls higher.....we he was in his 4x then....sry i don'T know very much bout them but i sure as hell know he hasn't even got one of his very good skills. i wanna see u at lvl 80 and beatin a lvl 8x barb(again not impossible but damn tough)

    And yes i'm not lvl 80 on my sin but i've exp with fighting barbs(as an archer though, and it sux lol.....even with ur mag attacks its still a hassle)

    and since when did i say that ur god as a HA? i just said what u were thinkin of urself? making it sound like its a AA ur fighting there lol...and for ur one shotting. u said
    and befor he knows it he will be dead.
    . sry but that was jsut one-shotting for me....or maybe a 10dps sin. dunno waht u thought writing that
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  • Atrieus - Raging Tide
    Atrieus - Raging Tide Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    I think it's safe to say everyone who posted their opinion got flamed/burned/pwned in some way after their post.

    And for all you BM addicts/lovers/druggies this topic is for POTENTIAL endgame dps. Supreme Emphasis on POTENTIAL. So, until the time comes when PWI makes an update with the final release of ALL the sins final gears and such, stop QQ'ing over the fact that maybe in the near future, Sins will pwn you harder than that nuke pwned Hirojima.

    end.
    QQ moar plz.
    b:bye
  • Ballistixz - Heavens Tear
    Ballistixz - Heavens Tear Posts: 690 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    ummm what are u a god?....since when do u think we can overcome a HA with charm? or did u think he'll just stand there and watch how ur killing him.....it might work on LA/AA but not on HA...only a lucky crit with him debuffed could manage that and still its mostly luck


    you still dont know that a charmed HA barb can be DPSed to death by fist BMs even w/o 5atk/sec? same concept applies to sins, only diffrence is sins will be doing MUCH more critical hits (so a lucky crit? try lucky crits with 30%+ NATURAL crit rate + PDS 40% crit rate boost) they will also be doing HIGHER criticals because of wolf emblem. infact DPS might be the best way to take down Charmed HA classes for sins especially with the help of added genie skills.

    so yes, HA can be beat with pure DPSing. quite easily at that. also the barb will have no other choice but to stand there and get hit since we have quite a few skills to keep him in place or catch up to him if he tries to run.
  • Killermate - Harshlands
    Killermate - Harshlands Posts: 437 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    Atrieus - Raging Tide wrote: »
    I think it's safe to say everyone who posted their opinion got flamed/burned/pwned in some way after their post.

    And for all you BM addicts/lovers/druggies this topic is for POTENTIAL endgame dps. Supreme Emphasis on POTENTIAL. So, until the time comes when PWI makes an update with the final release of ALL the sins final gears and such, stop QQ'ing over the fact that maybe in the near future, Sins will pwn you harder than that nuke pwned Hirojima.

    end.
    QQ moar plz.
    b:bye

    They have already, all you need is interval event gear, R8 top, Recasted Dagger, and HH99 Gold LA set bonus. IMO doesn't seen so bad since there is not much to do (at least in my server)
  • BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear
    BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear Posts: 249 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    you still dont know that a charmed HA barb can be DPSed to death by fist BMs even w/o 5atk/sec?

    honestly i didn't know that...i imagined that a barb would have at lvl 80 bout 8k hp human form(Good eq). and that this would eb enough to let the charm cool off. they ahve good defense anyway and at lvl 80 their gear is definitly refined....and besides like barbs will stand around and do nothing. i'm sure they have some good skills to stop bms attacks...so in the end in my opinion its pretty hard to do so.
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  • Killermate - Harshlands
    Killermate - Harshlands Posts: 437 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    honestly i didn't know that...i imagined that a barb would have at lvl 80 bout 8k hp human form(Good eq). and that this would eb enough to let the charm cool off. they ahve good defense anyway and at lvl 80 their gear is definitly refined....and besides like barbs will stand around and do nothing. i'm sure they have some good skills to stop bms attacks...so in the end in my opinion its pretty hard to do so.

    5.0a/r BMs can just triple spark, run to the barb and Lion's Roar for 6 sec stun and auto attack. When the stun effect runs out they just use genie Occult Ice for another 6 sec stun w/o having to stop DPSing.
  • Kristoph - Lost City
    Kristoph - Lost City Posts: 2,016 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    honestly i didn't know that...i imagined that a barb would have at lvl 80 bout 8k hp human form(Good eq). and that this would eb enough to let the charm cool off. they ahve good defense anyway and at lvl 80 their gear is definitly refined....and besides like barbs will stand around and do nothing. i'm sure they have some good skills to stop bms attacks...so in the end in my opinion its pretty hard to do so.
    lol who cares about lv80 barbs...
    Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.
  • BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear
    BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear Posts: 249 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    5.0a/r BMs can just triple spark, run to the barb and Lion's Roar for 6 sec stun and auto attack. When the stun effect runs out they just use genie Occult Ice for another 6 sec stun w/o having to stop DPSing.

    what have fist bms to do with it? we're talking bout sins vs HA.
    lol who cares about lv80 barbs...
    i do cause they are sometimes a pain fighting(barbs in general. lvl doesn't matter) and besides i said that its hard to beat a HA class like Bm or BARB
    see thats why i was talking bout him....try to read pls before posting
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  • Ballistixz - Heavens Tear
    Ballistixz - Heavens Tear Posts: 690 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    what have fist bms to do with it? we're talking bout sins vs HA

    seeing as the topic is about a sins DPS then we already came to the conclusion that a sin out DPSes a fist BM. and a fist BM can DPS HA barbs and other HA BMs to death even if they have charm on. so since a sin can out DPS a fist BM they will have a easier time DPSing charmed HA classes to death without a problem once they get there 3 spark.
  • Death_Tide - Heavens Tear
    Death_Tide - Heavens Tear Posts: 39 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    seeing as the topic is about a sins DPS then we already came to the conclusion that a sin out DPSes a fist BM. and a fist BM can DPS HA barbs and other HA BMs to death even if they have charm on. so since a sin can out DPS a fist BM they will have a easier time DPSing charmed HA classes to death without a problem once they get there 3 spark.

    And don't forget the crits b:cute

    Cuz that's the most important thing we have/need to get passed a charmed HA user.

    POWER DASH!
  • Kristoph - Lost City
    Kristoph - Lost City Posts: 2,016 Arc User
    edited January 2010
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    BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    what have fist bms to do with it? we're talking bout sins vs HA.


    i do cause they are sometimes a pain fighting(barbs in general. lvl doesn't matter) and besides i said that its hard to beat a HA class like Bm or BARB
    see thats why i was talking bout him....try to read pls before posting
    Uh the thread is about endgame DPS... lv80 is 100% nonfactor in pvp, at most an annoyance. I can kite 5 8x's around and wait for a chance to just oneshot them or pop one anti stun pot and murder every one of them. Besides, it's stupid to talk about fights where the two parties aren't even the same level, and lv80 doesn't even give you triple spark.. which is how you out DPS a barb's charm. Gtfo.
    Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.
  • SashaGray - Heavens Tear
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,765 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    its actually possibal for venos to get 5 aps to with a higher DPS than any in gameb:chuckle but does that mean its PRACTICLE


    TELL ME MOAR NAO!!!!

    I'll let you know how practical it is after. b:surrender
    99chest + 99wrists for lionheart -.05?
    99 wrist for -.1
    tome -.1
    lunar cape? -.05

    base interval with a magic sword is .8
    with the gear listed i got .5 or 2 attacks per second.

    veno demon spark doesn't give the interval bonus that pure melee classes get, even though venos are 1/2 melee (BTW WHY DONT FOXES GET BLOODPAINT BUFFSb:angryb:angry)

    but i would love to see how to semi-efficiently boost foxform DPS
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    TELL ME MOAR NAO!!!!

    I'll let you know how practical it is after. b:surrender
    99chest + 99wrists for lionheart -.05?
    99 wrist for -.1
    tome -.1
    lunar cape? -.05

    base interval with a magic sword is .8
    with the gear listed i got .5 or 2 attacks per second.

    veno demon spark doesn't give the interval bonus that pure melee classes get, even though venos are 1/2 melee (BTW WHY DONT FOXES GET BLOODPAINT BUFFSb:angryb:angry)

    but i would love to see how to semi-efficiently boost foxform DPS

    as i said completly impracticle but

    same armor tome setup as bm's

    break a set of lunar clawss...got fox...repair em


    200% mele master = highest dps around....but no skills and the second you relog its gone

    so ya...not really usefull but possibleb:surrender
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    200% mele master = highest dps around....but no skills and the second you relog its gone
    No skills doesn't matter since for pretty much all high attack/sec builds, maximum damage comes from fast regular attacks, not from slow skills.

    From my understanding of the p.atk equation, sparks and melee mastery get added the same way. So the p.atk modifier (i.e. assuming same weapon and rings) per hit would be:

    Sage veno = 1 + str/150 + 2 (melee mastery) + 5 (triple spark) = 8 + str/150
    Demon veno = 1 + str/150 + 1.5 + 6.5 = 9 + str/150
    Demon BM = 1 + str/150 + 0.75 + 5 = 6.75 + str/150

    So per hit the veno would do more damage.

    However with full interval gear and -0.1 fists as described, a veno can only achieve 3.33 atk/sec (0.3 sec interval) since veno triple spark doesn't give an attack speedup. Furthermore, at 3.33 atk/sec, the veno needs 22.5 sec to generate 3 sparks, so is only spending 67% of the time triple sparked. So per second, the numbers break down thusly:

    Sage veno: 3.33 * [ 0.67*(8+str/150) + 0.33*(3+str/150) ] = 21.1 + str/45
    Demon veno: 3.33 * [ 0.67*(9+str/150) + 0.33*(2.5+str/150) ] = 22.8 + str/45
    Demon BM: 5 * (6.75 + str/150) = 33.75 + str/30

    So both the constant term and str term are greater for a BM than a veno, meaning all other things being equal, a BM will do more DPS.

    Disclaimer: My main is a heavy veno that I'm loading up with -interval gear (now that I can transfer it to alts via the account stash). So I would really like it if venos had higher melee DPS than BMs. But it just isn't so.
  • Giodia - Heavens Tear
    Giodia - Heavens Tear Posts: 475 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    what have fist bms to do with it? we're talking bout sins vs HA.


    i do cause they are sometimes a pain fighting(barbs in general. lvl doesn't matter) and besides i said that its hard to beat a HA class like Bm or BARB
    see thats why i was talking bout him....try to read pls before posting

    I lulz when i read your emo story b:chuckleb:victory
    BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    wow and thats in ur guild.....they're supposed to help u...well honestly i sure notice that sins are unwanted...we are the highest DDs and have the highest Dmg output but compared to archers range its nothing...we can'T kill all the mobs especially aoe bosses cause we get hit too hard. and when we use our bows to compensate for that we aren't even clsoe to archers who have longer range and skills....so in the end i really am wondering bout our job....the only thing i did so far is stealthing and opening dorrs ands aving time for our squad but honestly thats not that great.....and i will need my TT70 armor soon....hope sth will change and i can find our job...

    So what's the point of arguing for 5 pattk / sec?

    I think just wait till all your skills are out, before arguing further?
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    BurningShock - Harshlands wrote: »
    I got into an argument with Elenacostal (an archer) about this, it turns out its not increase attack spped, but really decrease attack duration. It may be a translation error, this site has everything you ever need to know on the matter http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=279561

    P.S. don't argue with the archers... it never ends well

    It wasn't *that* bad, was it? I thought we were both civil and had an enlightening discussion.

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