In case of a fail squad, what to do?

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Most of the time you see two kinds of BMs: the ones who rush in thinking they are the greatest warriors of all time or the ones who basically throw in an Aoelian Blade and otherwise just auto-attack and get the kill if they are doing FB/BH. Not those BMs who actually do their job or anything. I have seen a couple of good BMs who have done like they should in BH29 or BH39. But 90% of the time they are not good, sometimes they suck completely. It's really that bad now. b:bye

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Okay, who wants to donate some free Guardian Scrolls to not lose my EXP? Not you? Damn. Yeah, sacrifice yourself to save some random noobs is pointless. If they can't do it, why should I be able to do their work too? Btw as I just did Farren with two 5x BMs (one being me as a tank), 5x cleric, 5x **** and 5x archer, I saw that once the tank loses aggro it's pretty much game over. In the rare cases where I got the aggro before anyone else rushed in, everything was fine, and when that didn't happen things got ugly. So, just scream RUN! and get running if you are tanking and die or lose aggro.

ITT: Why should I do something for people when I know they wouldn't do it to me?

that's the spirit.

if you lose aggro, which from your squad, seemed bound to happen, then keep hitting, the squishier DD who took agro will die, then you get aggro back, once you have it, run around with boss until the dead DD is rezzed.

course if everybody in squad rushes boss like its SPARTA!!!!!!! the forget about it, drop squad and find some professionals,

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear

Another thing about fail squads. It might just be one person holding the squad back.

Yesterday - Bh 59 zimo for my Cleric 65

1 barb
2 clerics
1 archer
1 wizard

So we were running the instance. Asked barb to go true form and use roar so we can heal.

Barb say's "its not my job to tank mobs; I tank boss"

reply, "we can't heal you if you don't grab aggro from all the mobs;

barb, "well then you tank one"

I did...for awhile....

we go along

I ask again, "barb please go true form so we can heal you'

Barb, "i can't tank more then 1 mob"

He aggro's 3 other cleric heals she grabs aggro I grab one archer grabs another archer dies.

Please grab aggro i say,

his reply, "if you know so much about playing a barb go roll one'

I say, " i don't need to I play a bm and tank fine please go true form and tank. That is your role"

He reply's " Its your fault if you can't keep everyone alive that's your role.

Finally tired I say, " boot barb from party. I'll tank rest of bh and zimo"

He gets booted. Whispers me QQ'n

We get to zimo My cleric tanks and we kill boss.

That's another way you handle fail squad members.....

Dvalinn - Lost City

Well as a Wizard, if I steal aggro, I gtfo out as fast as I can until the tank takes it back (unless it's Drake or someone I can tank). If someone else steals aggro, I sutra-heal them. If the tank dies and the one who gets aggro will die, I gtfo out. It'll eventually try and chase me.

Gasoline - Lost City

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

So, you decide to do your BH with a random squad. I take BH39 as an example. Squad consists of 2 DDs, 1 cleric, 1 barb, 1 veno and 1 BM. Everything goes fine until the boss. You see that one of the DDs grab aggro and is going to die.

Seems familiar, right? I am pretty sure most of us have seen that. Since my main is BM I have access to a powerful skill: Cloud Sprint. It can really save myself sometimes. But, is it right to GTFO as fast as you or should I run in and try to save the day? It seems that people always think that BMs and barbs should come running and try to save others. If, on the other hand, you are a veno or some other squishy class there's not much you can do for others. Sometimes even I feel myself so squishy that I'll only kill myself if I get aggro. Any thoughts what is right?

If you're only gonna die anyway just run lol. Not like you can chain stun the boss anyway.

If DDs refuse to control their dmg and keeps pulling agro just let them die till they learn or kick them from party if they make the clerics die to b:chuckle.

Its funny how people always blame the barb for loosing agro when its really mostly the DDs faults.

There is no way in hell a barb can hold agro against archer/wiz thats 5-10 lvls above with a highly refine weapon - if they go full out dmg. Doesn't matter how much u spam flesh ream and roar and alpha male and devour and what not. Its even hard to take agro back with flesh ream for barbs if the DD is to high lvl and has like +10 weapons and using triple spark.

You do an instance as a group, so its everyones responsibility that the boss stays on the tank - not just the barb <.< The veno needs to pass chi and reflect. The DDs needs to watch the boss and take breaks DDing, specially if the barb is lagging and cant bite properly.

And Bms should not go on suicide missions b/c people are being idiots.

Dydrial - Sanctuary

I noticed that, often, when a DD draws and gets killed, the cleric tries to res instantly while the barb tries to pull aggro again(or sometimes doesn't, in the case of the Epic Fail Squad).

Worst case scenario that seems to happen a lot: pulled boss is picking the archer/wiz/whatev pieces out of his gums, ignores the barb or BM wailing on him, looks at the Cleric and thinks, "Mmm, it appears to be squishy and delicious with ketchup. NOM. I shall pick my teeth with its feathers and make a tiny necklace. Or perhaps a small bib for when I dine in the future. Then this tiger shall make a nice loincloth with fox fur accents and I shan't have to worry over bloody bits getting into it."

Unless I see the cleric running, I DD my **** off, if for no other reason than to try to keep the boss off the cleric. I'm LA with high HP so I can absorb a bit more damage than most, and I can switch to fox or hit feral concentration in a pinch. If there are 2 clerics and one is running, that's a different story. But yeah, a lot of them I have seen go for the res or keep healing and wind up dying. And sometimes, that boss is really set on BBQ cleric, and perhaps a shiny new feather necklace.

KillerMcD - Heavens Tear

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If tank dies etc... grab aggro and run.

Why?

This gives time for the cleric to rez tank. Rebuff.

Just keep running when you see everyone is back up and living...run right at the barb. He "should" flesh ream which will grab aggro immediately.

If cleric died. You run to exit. Once you get out boss aggro will reset. And you start again.

This works good, also a good idea if too many mobs are lured and squad members go down fast. Try and give the cleric a chance to get people back up on their feet.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

DD that cannot manage their aggro on anything deserve to die.

FranzKafka - Dreamweaver

My bet is that there are out there more failed barbs than DDs.It's enough to read WC for BH69 with barbs asking for 2 clerics.

It depends from case to case but since I have a lvl 89 barb and tanked TT3-1 with lvl 100 archers and bms you have to work harder on keeping aggro(and I assure you when the archer was doing some nasty crit and I was losing aggro 2 bites were enough to get it back...as I said above in this cases my poor hand at the end of the fight ).IF the barb is a fail the DDs have to work harder and sometimes even equip claws/fist and go DD melee till less than half of boss's HP atleast.My guess is you can get a clean run even if you have a bad apple in the group.

Psytrac - Raging Tide

Dvalinn - Lost City wrote: »

Well as a Wizard, if I steal aggro, I gtfo out as fast as I can until the tank takes it back (unless it's Drake or someone I can tank). If someone else steals aggro, I sutra-heal them. If the tank dies and the one who gets aggro will die, I gtfo out. It'll eventually try and chase me.

that's when flesh ream lvl 4 on Kowlin comes in handy lol

Quilue - Sanctuary

its easier to hold aggro at TT runs because everyone does less damage and what holds aggro is the aggro skills. in my experience on normal bosses i can take aggro and keep it easily while in TT it's a lot easier for a barb to take it back. there was a time that i insisted on range tanking the last boss in 2-2 and have the barbs (dammit there were 2 but they were my friends >.<) take the adds instead but this barb wouldn't listen and kept trying to tank lol...

it took demon sparking + extreme poison to steal it off of him but he kept getting it back w/ alpha male, roar, and a bunch of other stuff. lvl 85 barb too

as a DD if tank falls the best thing to do is try to survive as long as possible with the boss on you so that the cleric can either run or revive the barb. that means wings of grace, winged shell, alacrity around the area if its not an AOE boss and just try to keep yourself alive with the boss on you. plenty of such experience in bh69 back in the days lol...

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Okay, who wants to donate some free Guardian Scrolls to not lose my EXP? Not you? Damn. Yeah, sacrifice yourself to save some random noobs is pointless. If they can't do it, why should I be able to do their work too? Btw as I just did Farren with two 5x BMs (one being me as a tank), 5x cleric, 5x **** and 5x archer, I saw that once the tank loses aggro it's pretty much game over. In the rare cases where I got the aggro before anyone else rushed in, everything was fine, and when that didn't happen things got ugly. So, just scream RUN! and get running if you are tanking and die or lose aggro.

ITT: Why should I do something for people when I know they wouldn't do it to me?

Reroll. Right now. Right, right now.

This attitude is a bad one to have.

Let's reverse it shall we? Why should the cleric put their life on the line healing you if the tank happens to die? Sorry to tell you that a cleric puts their life on the line a great deal because many things can go wrong and many things can kill a cleric. Also, typically, a cleric won't have a cleric to res them and save their EXP.

So take your attitude and reroll right now, or better yet, GTFO off the game. Every class makes sacrifices the instant they agree to go and kill something - because any one fail can kill any one class.

Barbs can die if they lag, or the clerics don't heal properly.
BMs may die as secondary tanks if the mob/boss they are tanking hits them too hard and they don't have the HP pool to deal with it. Or again, if the cleric doesn't heal properly.
DDs will die after the barb is dead, in the order of who did the most damage.
Clerics will die after the DDs assuming they didn't high tail it out of there. 99% of clerics I know are respectable enough not to do so.

So it's not just you who puts your life on the line. Every squad member is at risk when something bad happens. If you don't want to take the potential risk of failure and die for your squad?
Don't squad.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Okay, who wants to donate some free Guardian Scrolls to not lose my EXP? Not you? Damn. Yeah, sacrifice yourself to save some random noobs is pointless. If they can't do it, why should I be able to do their work too? Btw as I just did Farren with two 5x BMs (one being me as a tank), 5x cleric, 5x **** and 5x archer, I saw that once the tank loses aggro it's pretty much game over. In the rare cases where I got the aggro before anyone else rushed in, everything was fine, and when that didn't happen things got ugly. So, just scream RUN! and get running if you are tanking and die or lose aggro.

ITT: Why should I do something for people when I know they wouldn't do it to me?

are you a cleric? i didnt think so. can you ress others with reduced xp loss? NO. that's why you risk death to save the cleric. you want to bail and let the Farren run amok with AoEs, no one's going to squad you.

and how much do you lose anyway? esp after say, a lvl 8 ress?

Vinat - Sanctuary

to be quite honest most ppl seem like fail (insert class here) players to me. clerics who dont heal soon enough, barbs who **** up (so many ways to do it), even other venos who **** up 1 lure out of a whole run. and that's been me sometimes. so i'm probably fail in everybody elses eyes. basically, accidents happen, for everybody. if something is a consistant, repeated problem tho.. well then just dont squad with them anymore lol

StormHydra - Sanctuary

Well when the tank dies I generally try to get aggro of all the mobs. Now if the cleric is smart he'll rez the tank right away, heal him etc while I have wings of grace, winged shell, spark etc up. Now usually Ill end up dying but when the tank gets aggro back Ill get rezzed.
Yeah thats probably the best case scenario when the tank dies.

But half the time when I steal aggro to give the cleric time to rez the tank, the dumb cleric starts healing me instead of rezzing the barb. Then Ill die, and the mobs will go after the cleric=instant squadwipe.

↑
Thats the role of DDs including venos and BMs during a squadwipe. If the cleric is smart there will be a dead barb and a dead DD. If its a dumb cleric itll be a dead barb, dead DD, dead cleric, and half dead venos and BMs running through a dungeon with Myriadtale wyvern behind them

Telarith - Sanctuary

I pretty much would just Myriad for reduced boss damage, then head near cleric if I don't have aggro. Wait for DD to die, hoping the cleric doesn't heal them if they show no signs of intelligent play. Then either the tank or I would grab aggro and save the cleric. I only care about keeping the cleric alive in those instances, DDs should have their food and/or charms and pots available to survive when they gimp up. If they don't and keep attacking, they deserve to die and lose their BH. No sense others should sacrifice for them.

Course it helps to have been a cleric first, so I can also tell if the cleric is doing something stupid. If the cleric shows no signs of healing me on a boss that really requires healing after I grab aggro, I will not bother saving them again should it go TU again later on. For me, the safest option has been to just do the tank role, and leave the worries of whether the barb is competent or not alone. Haven't had any issues of lost aggro, aside from when people misunderstand the don't attack until after my sparked attacks start. They seem to think red light means go, but once the hits start keeping aggro is simple, no timing or skill use required. Cuts down on accidents if nothing else.

StormHydra - Sanctuary

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote:

DDs should have their food and/or charms and pots available to survive when they gimp up. If they don't and keep attacking, they deserve to die and lose their BH. No sense others should sacrifice for them.

Rofl. Clerics can be more of an **** than anyone else. DD'ers probably sacrifice themselves to save the cleric, then the cleric will be a 'tard and say

"It was your fault you died. You deserve to die. Im not wasting mana on you"


And also..

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote:

If the cleric shows no signs of healing me on a boss that really requires healing after I grab aggro, I will not bother saving them again should it go TU again later on.

You know that just contradicts what you said before

XylolyX - Heavens Tear

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Anyway - yeah. Your job as secondary tank is to jump in and save the cleric. If the cleric lives, you all live.

That's the primary goal. Keep the cleric alive at all costs. If it means luring the boss to another room and dying there...then do it. KEEP YOUR CLERIC ALIVE. (That's the first rule of squadding.)

Also, clerics...please know when not to heal.

@ The Demon spark archer comment: Try 2Demon BMs and a Demon Archer all sparking close to each other. Now that will test the Barb's aggro holding skills.b:victory

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear

XylolyX - Heavens Tear wrote: »

@ The Demon spark archer comment: Try 2Demon BMs and a Demon Archer all sparking close to each other. Now that will test the Barb's aggro holding skills.b:victory

I never demon spark when squaded with you xylo......b:quiet

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Reroll. Right now. Right, right now.

This attitude is a bad one to have.

Let's reverse it shall we? Why should the cleric put their life on the line healing you if the tank happens to die? Sorry to tell you that a cleric puts their life on the line a great deal because many things can go wrong and many things can kill a cleric. Also, typically, a cleric won't have a cleric to res them and save their EXP.

So take your attitude and reroll right now, or better yet, GTFO off the game. Every class makes sacrifices the instant they agree to go and kill something - because any one fail can kill any one class.

Barbs can die if they lag, or the clerics don't heal properly.
BMs may die as secondary tanks if the mob/boss they are tanking hits them too hard and they don't have the HP pool to deal with it. Or again, if the cleric doesn't heal properly.
DDs will die after the barb is dead, in the order of who did the most damage.
Clerics will die after the DDs assuming they didn't high tail it out of there. 99% of clerics I know are respectable enough not to do so.

So it's not just you who puts your life on the line. Every squad member is at risk when something bad happens. If you don't want to take the potential risk of failure and die for your squad?
Don't squad.

Your attitude sure is harsh. It's okay, I understand not everybody thinks the same as me. You just said I should be protecting the cleric. Fair enough. Yet you said that BMs might die as secondary tanks. Well, that's the problem. In case barb dies and loses aggro to a DD, I struggle to get it but after the DD dies cleric gets it. When the boss is trying to kill the cleric I get aggro. And I'm dead few moments later no matter what. When I was tanking Farren, the cleric had to heal another BM because she was in the AoE range (we didn't have a puller). I was down to 120hp before he started to heal me again. 1 second later I would've been dead. If you can't tank, don't try it. Me as a tank is same as an archer tanking.

And, about your sentence why cleric should heal me when I get aggro: they shouldn't. If I get aggro, I'm no better than a BM who decided to AoE-gring ten instance mobs while doing their BH. Dead BM is no use for the squad.

Isala - Sanctuary

What do I do in cases of a fail squad? Sadly... Everything. Barb loses aggro, and mob goes after squishy, I use Alpha Male. Boss WTFPWNs the Barb, and starts wreaking havoc on the party? Alpha Male, and run like a ****... I tank with my pet, I tank with myself, all so the cleric can stay alive and res the idiots. There is rarely an excuse for a cleric to die first. Every other member of that party had better be dead before a cleric's body hits the floor. And THAT is how I deal with a fail squad.

As for TT, however, a fail squad can just bite me. Fail squads tend to be fail for distributing drops as well. And I sure as hell don't want shafted by the morons... Especially those who think it's cute to tell me they can do it without me when I'm tanking the entire thing...

Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you can't tank, don't try it. Me as a tank is same as an archer tanking.

Bad build ? or pure fist BM ?
Since unless you are a no vit pure fist BM you should be able to off tank and hold bosses with pots,sutra etc long enough for the cleric to do whats needed.

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear

um...i use fists and have no problem tanking. Misconception.....

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Bad build ? or pure fist BM ?
Since unless you are a no vit pure fist BM you should be able to off tank and hold bosses with pots,sutra etc long enough for the cleric to do whats needed.

Neither one. I got 3k HP unbuffed and ~140str, some 2** armors and such. My Farren run went horribly. I wasn't able to hold aggro at all, even the fist BM got aggro more often than I. My wep is made from the mold, Sound Chaser +2 with one flawless garnet. But I just can't do it.

Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear wrote: »

um...i use fists and have no problem tanking. Misconception.....

Not at lower levels it isnt, at 90+ your gears,shards and refine compensate for lack of vit to allow for tanking... At 50+ unless they have wasted tonnes of GC/$ the refines and shards are not enough to make up for the lack of vit.

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear

You can shard; refine and such at lower levels too. I did on my cleric!! b:victory

Nikamerece - Lost City

As a cleric, when I was doing Farren, if I couldn't save them... I ran. I died one too many times because of fail squads.

I've actually left a squad in the middle of a bh39 because the barb kept running into groups of mobs and only getting aggro on on or two after telling the DD's not to do anything and expected me to heal him. After I 2nd time, I told him to quit or I left. He did it a third time and I left. Don't **** off the cleric b:pleased

Unless I get an ******* + fail squad... I generally stay and call a friend to help (isn't it great knowing plenty 8x and 9x?).

Nikamerece - Lost City

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Me as a tank is same as an archer tanking.

A lvl 62 archer tanked Farren for me when I was 54. It was just him and I so that statement needs to be revised. If you have a good cleric, you can tank Farren at your lvl. The only class that hasn't tanked Farren for me is a wizzie and that's only cause I don't know very many.

Astoru - Raging Tide

It's the job of the DD to let aggro return to the barb. In the case of wizard and archer, archer should immediately shell and the wizard should blink out of there, to at least keep themselves alive long enough for the tank to regain aggro.

It's not the job of the BM to sacrifice themselves when others can't do their job properly.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Astoru - Raging Tide wrote: »

It's not the job of the BM to sacrifice themselves when others can't do their job properly.

This is what I'm talking about. Others can try to be heroes, but that's not why we play this game. Of course if it's possible to save others I'm willing to do it, but as long as I can't do it, there is little to no point in trying. If you can't save yourself, how can you save others? b:bye