A question about aggro and wizards

Xegeth - Dreamweaver

As I said, let's just all attack with fists, so the poor cleric does not have to come back from being afk healing... Or hey, whata bout using BB and afking then? Problem solved

Oh and btw: At low level Farren counts to the few bosses where stealing aggro can be deadly for the squad.. There are not a lot of those bosses tho.

IDaun - Raging Tide

Xegeth - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As I said, let's just all attack with fists, so the poor cleric does not have to come back from being afk healing... Or hey, whata bout using BB and afking then? Problem solved

Oh and btw: At low level Farren counts to the few bosses where stealing aggro can be deadly for the squad.. There are not a lot of those bosses tho.

Damn you guys are stupid. Refer to my other posts. If you're not intelligent enough to know your limits to how much you can DD and when you hold back, you really shouldn't be playing a game that relies on teamwork.

I'm terribly sorry for the stupidity I spewed all over your precious forums-- I mean, what right is it of me to ask you to step down off your enormous egos and actually work with a team? I must be crazy-- you, wizards, are the true solo class. /sarcasm

Xegeth - Dreamweaver

Well, I am just glad you read my other posts. And by the way, the second part of my post wasn't even flame.

BrownflameZ - Lost City

IDaun - Raging Tide wrote: »

Then either ask to tank or don't attack, if stealing aggro is inevitable. b:cute

Really, simple formula. If you know you're gonna steal aggro, and you don't take precautions to make it easier on the squad, it is NOT the tank's fault. Just as if you steal aggro and die-- it's not the cleric's.

Since you're on here making comments like, 'stealing aggro is inevitable'... you know it is. You're not ignorant of it, apparently. So why in the world would you not alter how you play to make it easier on everyone in your squad? Isn't that what a mmo is for? Teamwork?

Whoo, wizzies can do damage. We know that. But it is your responsibility to keep your damage low or let everyone know you will tank. Those are your only two options. Tell everyone, or just deal with less attack power.

A lowbie example-- BH/FB39. If you're attacking the boss, and an archer steals aggro on Farren. Farren, of course, goes crazy with his phys AoEs when he is tanked ranged. Squad wipe occurs. Who's fault is that? By your logic, it's the tank's fault for not keeping aggro. I don't get your logic.

I have a low-ish wizzie. I have only stolen aggro on one boss. Whether it was a BM 10 levels under me tanking or a barb, I know how much damage I can do before I overdo it. It's your responsibility to know the same, and use that knowledge.

When a TANK is tanking, and the tank being a barb as its suppose to be, or a veno with a herc, there is no need for a mage to gimp their damage.

Their meant to deal damage, and in which case aggro will shift. When it shifts its the barbs job to get aggro back and they have enough skills to do that with expecially with genie.

Now if were talking about a stupid mage who goes in a HH and dragons 10 mobs and blames the tank, thats a diffrent story.

Like i said before, a barb is to tank, a EP is to heal, a mage/ea is to DD. Unless i'm dealing with complete noobs in my squad I see no reason to gimp my damage so the barb can deal a higher output and keep aggro by that means.

In a long duration boss, pyro and gush is going to get aggro. Pitfall + crown of flames just looks stupid. I'm better of smacking the god damn thing and go afk.

If a tank cant hold aggro in tiger, with all those god damn skills that are there for that purpose, that barb is fail. And unless you get one shotted after taking aggro, if the EP cant heal, thats a fail cleric.

I wonder what your going to do in fb89 instances, where bosses random aggro, if you don't like switching targest to heal...

Mages and EAs will steal aggro with their high DPS, all you have to do is keep a eye out for that, thats all. It's not rocket sciense. I see no purpose of saying "HAI GUYS IM MAGE I TAKE AGGRO BE CAREFUL KAY? LULZ". It's kind of obvious, and a EP should take percuations of keeping an eye out, and a WB being ready to bite when needed.


/EndBlockOfText.

Amouriv - Dreamweaver

Just because you can steal aggro doesnt mean you do it. Learn how to control how much damage you do. I gone on TT runs with wizards with some really good weapons who never steal aggro because, they know how to control how much they do. Maybe i should go a little more in-depth

A wizard who steals aggro just because s/he knows s/he can and does it anyways is fail

If i take off a bit of my crit gear, i can do some nice damage without taking aggro that much and the runs go by nice and smoothly. I dont know where people get the idea that stealing aggro = good. The people on my server that i know who do that never get invited to FC/TT/etc runs.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Amouriv - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Just because you can steal aggro doesnt mean you do it. Learn how to control how much damage you do. I gone on TT runs with wizards with some really good weapons who never steal aggro because, they know how to control how much they do. Maybe i should go a little more in-depth

A wizard who steals aggro just because s/he knows s/he can and does it anyways is fail

If i take off a bit of my crit gear, i can do some nice damage without taking aggro that much and the runs go by nice and smoothly. I dont know where people get the idea that stealing aggro = good. The people on my server that i know who do that never get invited to FC/TT/etc runs.

Can you tell me pls, how I can control my damage? Of course if BM tanking I don't use powerful spells. Just sage pyro, gush even stone rain I don't use. And if BM is +- same level as me and I critic with pyro or gush, the agro is mine if is not just using the lock and stunt. How I can prevent that? Thanks for your advice. FYI critic with pyro and gush is +- 20k.

BrownflameZ - Lost City

Amouriv - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Just because you can steal aggro doesnt mean you do it. Learn how to control how much damage you do. I gone on TT runs with wizards with some really good weapons who never steal aggro because, they know how to control how much they do. Maybe i should go a little more in-depth

A wizard who steals aggro just because s/he knows s/he can and does it anyways is fail

If i take off a bit of my crit gear, i can do some nice damage without taking aggro that much and the runs go by nice and smoothly. I dont know where people get the idea that stealing aggro = good. The people on my server that i know who do that never get invited to FC/TT/etc runs.

By "controlling" your dumbing your damage down. Where your not exactly DDing to your fullest potential, which means more time wasted on the boss. Unless im dealing with a noob party, or conserving mana, I see no reason to gimp down, a barb will be able to hold aggro as long as their not at a reletively low level.

Xegeth - Dreamweaver

@Amouriv: You still didn't answer my question. What is the bad thing about Linus hitting me two times instead of the barb? And I still get invited to a lot of squads... Strange. :S

Szol - Harshlands

BrownflameZ - Lost City wrote: »

By "controlling" your dumbing your damage down. Where your not exactly DDing to your fullest potential, which means more time wasted on the boss. Unless im dealing with a noob party, or conserving mana, I see no reason to gimp down, a barb will be able to hold aggro as long as their not at a reletively low level.

wrong---> dead wizzi = no dmg at all ---> wizzie not ging for full potential ( guys this doens directly mean ull only use gush and stones- BUT using more delays) is way more effective than the so called pro wizz - with his uber dmg --- dead in 2 secs after aggro---- getting rezzed -- going like all at the mob again-- dead again -- then starts the qq for fail tanks -... but question is :
who did really fail in this part:
it can a) be the veno for not doing his darn job and passing vigor to barb
b) leeeet wizzie failing
c) cleric for waisting mana to rezz the pro wiz


well - honesty sometimes its a -- but i think most agree to case b b:thanksb:thanks



edit : no offense to those that know how to play and what their class can take-- if u now u can tank .-.. sure go full dps

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Szol - Harshlands wrote: »

wrong---> dead wizzi = no dmg at all ---> wizzie not ging for full potential ( guys this doens directly mean ull only use gush and stones- BUT using more delays) is way more effective than the so called pro wizz - with his uber dmg --- dead in 2 secs after aggro---- getting rezzed -- going like all at the mob again-- dead again -- then starts the qq for fail tanks -... but question is :
who did really fail in this part:
it can a) be the veno for not doing his darn job and passing vigor to barb
b) leeeet wizzie failing
c) cleric for waisting mana to rezz the pro wiz


well - honesty sometimes its a -- but i think most agree to case b b:thanksb:thanks



edit : no offense to those that know how to play and what their class can take-- if u now u can tank .-.. sure go full dps

You probably don't have high level mage do you? I have 8700 p.def. Sometimes I steal agro but from level 80 no boss killed me in 1 hit. Except polearm. So I can stand for at least 2 hit from normal bosses especially when cleric help is that no problem. BH bosses for sure. And some of TT 3... And 2 hits is enough to FOW and shrink away.

Szol - Harshlands

read the edit -
sure high lvl wiz got tons of pdef - but where did i say they aint allowed to tank or aggro , IF they can manage the dmg inc

just sucks alot , for tanks to run after bosses - coz some smartarse decided he woldnt care for aoes of bosses etc , bad positioning , and move the boss by aggroing him .. again this is no offense to anybody
and again whats distance shrienk good for , IF NOT used to tele near tank so he gets the aggro back--- running away from boss if he aggroed u is even more fail than aggroing in the first instance and not being able to take it


but i said this all above......


happy xmas

Xegeth - Dreamweaver

I think we aggro nobody who posted in this thread is dumb enough to kill a squad by taking aggro on a boss with a bad aoe. It is about knowing what you can take. Most magic bosses don't hit me for more than 400ish damage.. Except General Wurlord Null, but he is tankable as well. And since, as Mumintroll pointed out, the pdef of a high lvl wiz is quite good, physical bosses are not that bad either.

I just don't get the point of saying "taking aggro = automatic fail". I mean, in most of the cases the worst consequences are either tank running a bit, cleric switching healing target or my charm ticking once or twice. What's the big deal?

Merry Christmas to all of you

Pel - Lost City

One method I like, is to find a spell that is going to be effective for the boss, e.g. sandstorm for a water boss, dp for a metal, or ss for default. Then I just use that one skill, and let the cooldown slow down my dps enough that I don't steal aggro.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

I'm talking about accidentally taking agro. That's not our main purpose to steal agro. Sometimes it happend when barb is not in squad. We cannot do anything. If you critic with lowest damage spell and damage is above 20k what can we do? The point is to know, what to do, when it happen. Experienced wizard know, what to do in this situation. Oracle noob leveler doesn't.b:chuckle

CeliaZ - Sanctuary

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm talking about accidentally taking agro. That's not our main purpose to steal agro. Sometimes it happend when barb is not in squad. We cannot do anything. If you critic with lowest damage spell and damage is above 20k what can we do? The point is to know, what to do, when it happen. Experienced wizard know, what to do in this situation. Oracle noob leveler doesn't.b:chuckle

Quoted for truth. Pel's way of not stealing agro is for wizards who are to lazy to figure out how to really maximise damage versus not stealing agro.

storehammy

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm talking about accidentally taking agro. That's not our main purpose to steal agro. Sometimes it happend when barb is not in squad. We cannot do anything. If you critic with lowest damage spell and damage is above 20k what can we do? The point is to know, what to do, when it happen. Experienced wizard know, what to do in this situation. Oracle noob leveler doesn't.b:chuckle

mumin if you really feel teh need to attack....and know that teh tank can't hold aggro too well....(take off your weapon~)
do it~~
b:chuckle

Damaged - Lost City

So many posts......

Just hold down the S key if you take aggro b:bye

Amouriv - Dreamweaver

you control your aggro by using spells of different channeling times. pyro > gush > stone rain (sage) is the higher DPS you can do as a sage wizard. If you were to do something like, pyro > gush > divine pyrogram > sandstorm > pyro > gush > divine pyrogram > sandstorm

You will still do a lot of damage but because of the channeling time if divine pyrogram and sandstorm, you increase the chances of not taking aggro because it gives the barb more time to hit the mob and you still end up doing the same damage if you spammed pyro > gush > stone rain in the time it takes to channel divine pyrogram and sandstorm.

Xegeth - Dreamweaver

@Amouriv : You are contradicting yourself. First you say you do less damage because of the channeling times, in the end you say "you still end up doing the same damage". Which is not true.
Plus you still did not answer my far more basic question I brought up in an earlier post. What is the harm in stealing aggro? (Don't come up with bad aoes or dying on bosses, I excluded those examples)

BrownflameZ - Lost City

Xegeth - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Amouriv : You are contradicting yourself. First you say you do less damage because of the channeling times, in the end you say "you still end up doing the same damage". Which is not true.
Plus you still did not answer my far more basic question I brought up in an earlier post. What is the harm in stealing aggro? (Don't come up with bad aoes or dying on bosses, I excluded those examples)

Cuase the poor tank will need to bite or alphamale, and the poor cleric will need to switch targets and cant go afk. QQQQQQQQQQQQ.

Lets let the DD gimp their damage with crown and pitfal so we can waste a good hour on a boss, and waste our pitiful lives.

To the person who wont stop posting -

Obviously if idiots grab aggro, during situations where you know itll be a party wipe, for example having a idiotic squad where there is no coordination what so ever, then dumbing yourself down would be the best option, even if it does waste time.

But in a case when you do have a good tank and a good ep, their is no need to lower DPS output, they know what their doing and there wont be a party wipe.

I would love to see people like you end up in brimstone and see how your going to manage against a random aggroing boss. The only DD would have to be the tank, lol. fun.

This thread is getting old
/EndThread.

Merry Xmas & Happy Holidays Everyone.

Amour - Lost City

Stealing aggro without being able to tank the boss, or putting your entire party in danger, or making the EP have to work really hard to heal everyone is not okay. Cool, you do a lot of damage, you can steal aggro, doesn't mean you should. It's just annoying. If you find yourself taking aggro when you don't want to, try adding pitfall or crown of flames to your macro, or just taking small breaks when casting. There are bosses (especially in Abaddon (fb99hell)) that when are tanked at range repeatedly aoe and potentially wipe parties. I've had this instance where a wizard stole aggro on a culti boss I needed that I provided wines for while afk on a macro, the boss wiped everyone, and he proceeded to kill the boss without anyone being alive. Although he is now my guild leader and I love him to bits that **** does not fly well with me at all.

Part of being a DD (especially if you have higher refined weapon/gear) is knowing how to control your damage. This is especially true for instances such as FBs where the bosses are level dependant.

MarrokBran - Heavens Tear

My main is a barb, but I also play a wiz. A good barb should be able to hold agro from ANY DD'er even a few lvl's above him/her. By holding agro, I mean that I may lose it if a DD'er does a couple of crits but I get it right back. A good tank that manages his chi and spams Flesh Ream will NOT lose agro. I play my Wiz with a barb that is 5 lvls below me and while I do steal agro every once in awhile, I have yet to be hit, She knows that I will steal it and is prepared for it. I am a pure Wiz that consistantly crits 20-30K so it is not because I am built "wrong". Wiz's just need to be choosey on who tanks for them and tanks shouldn't have to be told that a wiz might take agro, it's a given. In fact...when I tank with a Wiz, BM or Archer, I usually challange them to try to take agro as this helps me learn to tank better and kill mob/boss quicker. My main complaint is when killing a boss and a DD'er asks to join....they just tap it to death instead of just hitting the darned thing and killing it.

Xegeth - Dreamweaver

@MarrokBran: Thank you very much for your opinion. That is excactly my experience. I played together with a lvl 85 barb from my guild. I went all out on stygean and after a sage sparked attack series with a BM dragon added I did 70k, 72k and a 120k crit in a row... And the barb did not loose aggro, because he knows how to save his chi. He is 7 levels below me, god damnit ><

" I am a pure Wiz that consistantly crits 20-30K so it is not because I am built "wrong""

Lol, it would be sad to call a freaking DD wrong built, cause the DD deals too much damage. b:chuckle

Amouriv - Dreamweaver

Xegeth - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Amouriv : You are contradicting yourself. First you say you do less damage because of the channeling times, in the end you say "you still end up doing the same damage". Which is not true.
Plus you still did not answer my far more basic question I brought up in an earlier post. What is the harm in stealing aggro? (Don't come up with bad aoes or dying on bosses, I excluded those examples)

Amour - Lost City wrote: »

Stealing aggro without being able to tank the boss, or putting your entire party in danger, or making the EP have to work really hard to heal everyone is not okay. Cool, you do a lot of damage, you can steal aggro, doesn't mean you should. It's just annoying. If you find yourself taking aggro when you don't want to, try adding pitfall or crown of flames to your macro, or just taking small breaks when casting. There are bosses (especially in Abaddon (fb99hell)) that when are tanked at range repeatedly aoe and potentially wipe parties. I've had this instance where a wizard stole aggro on a culti boss I needed that I provided wines for while afk on a macro, the boss wiped everyone, and he proceeded to kill the boss without anyone being alive. Although he is now my guild leader and I love him to bits that **** does not fly well with me at all.

Part of being a DD (especially if you have higher refined weapon/gear) is knowing how to control your damage. This is especially true for instances such as FBs where the bosses are level dependant.

Let me try to explain it better
By channeling SS, you are allowing the barb to get a few more hits, then you can cast sandstorm and do about the same damage if you would have spammed pyro > gush > sage stone rain. Get it?

I think Amour explained it pretty good

Xegeth - Dreamweaver

Hmm, let me say it once again. I would never ever steal aggro if I risk a party wipe by doing so. That means I know how to not steal aggro if I want to. The only thing is, if there obviously is no harm by stealing aggro, cause the boss does not aoe etc - Then why should I be uber-cautious?.

And I got your example with the SS instead of pyro/gush. But I think especially when you DD with sage pyro - sage stone rain - sage pyro - sage gush (my usual combo) you loose a lot of DPS when using SS a lot. Not only because of the high and fast damage those spells do, but also by the chi you gain with sage pyro. I prefer letting the barb get some hits in the beginning and then go all out for the rest of the fight. Good barbs know very well how to handle damage spikes like spark eruption etc. I mean the big flashy animation of sage/demon spark gives enough time to prepare for flesh ream/alpha male/roar.. Should be doable.

Amouriv - Dreamweaver

Xegeth - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Hmm, let me say it once again. I would never ever steal aggro if I risk a party wipe by doing so. That means I know how to not steal aggro if I want to. The only thing is, if there obviously is no harm by stealing aggro, cause the boss does not aoe etc - Then why should I be uber-cautious?.

And I got your example with the SS instead of pyro/gush. But I think especially when you DD with sage pyro - sage stone rain - sage pyro - sage gush (my usual combo) you loose a lot of DPS when using SS a lot. Not only because of the high and fast damage those spells do, but also by the chi you gain with sage pyro. I prefer letting the barb get some hits in the beginning and then go all out for the rest of the fight. Good barbs know very well how to handle damage spikes like spark eruption etc. I mean the big flashy animation of sage/demon spark gives enough time to prepare for flesh ream/alpha male/roar.. Should be doable.

Why not just tank it then. I'm sure if you tell the barb you would want to tank the boss, it would save the whole party a scare thinking you might die. I'm thinking you just steal aggro just to show off how much damage you can do.

Xegeth - Dreamweaver

Hmm, I think it is a kind of common agreement to let the barb tank a boss. If you don't talk about it, everyone (including cleric and barb) find it obvious that the barb tanks. Sometimes barbs even feel pissed if you tell them you want to tank. And honestly, in most cases I dont steal aggro when playing with a good barb. It happens, but it's nothing worth talking about. So why start a discussion who tanks before each boss?

And what leads you to the conclusion I am showing off? I wouldn't let the barb get hits in if I really WANTED to steal aggro. It just happens sometimes. That seemed like a random accusation, sorry...

Isjitar - Sanctuary

A good wiz doesn't only know how to do as much damage as possible, but he should also know how to lower his damage to avoid getting aggro b:pleased


Things I do:
- wait a bit before attacking if you dont trust the tank (lower lvl, or same lvl bm or humanform barb)
- Don't undine, lol. That's just asking for aggro.
- Wait a sec before you cast a new skill. Just a sec is enough most of the time.
- Warn the squad, and ask the barb how much damage he thinks you can do without him losing aggro. Most barbs lvl80+ should know what they can take.
- If there's an archer in the squad of your level or higher, just DD what you want. Most archers dont know, cant, or just dont want to lower their damage. Not all, ofcourse, but sadly most archers get aggro anyways and most dont even listen to the tank telling them to lower their damage. So just get an archer in squad ^^

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Isjitar - Sanctuary wrote: »

A good wiz doesn't only know how to do as much damage as possible, but he should also know how to lower his damage to avoid getting aggro b:pleased


Things I do:
- wait a bit before attacking if you dont trust the tank (lower lvl, or same lvl bm or humanform barb[quit from squad if barb want tank in human form])
- Don't undine, lol. That's just asking for aggro.wasteing mana for your death, have sense?
- Wait a sec before you cast a new skill. Just a sec is enough most of the time.
- Warn the squad, and ask the barb how much damage he thinks you can do without him losing aggro. Most barbs lvl80+ should know what they can take.
- If there's an archer in the squad of your level or higher, just DD what you want. Most archers dont know, cant or most of ea afk during boss XD, or just dont want to lower their damage. Not all, ofcourse, but sadly most archers get aggro anyways and most dont even listen to the tank telling them to lower their damage. So just get an archer in squad ^^

i agree, only i fixed a bit

Isjitar - Sanctuary

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

i agree, only i fixed a bit

perfect