DD classes Please read.

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  • Pressa - Heavens Tear
    Pressa - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,287 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »
    A lot of people do not understand how aggro works.

    And, to be fair, if you are in a party with a good tank or maybe even a decent off-tank, you might not have to understand how aggro works.

    And, to be fairer, even people that understand how aggro works maybe do not understand everything.

    b:surrender I don't know if there is anyone that truly knows how effective a aggro skill is. Unless they are actually barbs and ones the pay attention.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Tomiko - Heavens Tear
    Tomiko - Heavens Tear Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    I want to believe what Sticky says, as sound as it may seem, but it's hard for me to accept that a level ~100 barb does not understand how to tank, especially considering how easy it is, as Sticky says. Then again that could very well be the case.

    These barbs are all competent players. Nothing would make me think that they are incompetent barbs. After grouping with them multiple times I learn each barb and how hard I can hit the mob. This varies with each barb. Some barbs I can hardly auto-attack. Some barbs I can just use demon quickshot. And some barbs I can triple spark and use everything I have. And it isn't a case of them possibly being afk at the moment. It could possibly be from macroing, which I am assuming is not as good as hands-on tanking. It's consistent on every mob and boss. The fine levels of difference make me believe it's all in the fine details. The stat build, the cultivation, learned skills, the gear, the skill of the player, everything. Every small detail adds up to create quite a noticeable gap in barb tanking ability.
  • Pressa - Heavens Tear
    Pressa - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,287 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Tomiko - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I want to believe what Sticky says, as sound as it may seem, but it's hard for me to accept that a level ~100 barb does not understand how to tank, especially considering how easy it is, as Sticky says. Then again that could very well be the case.

    These barbs are all competent players. Nothing would make me think that they are incompetent barbs. After grouping with them multiple times I learn each barb and how hard I can hit the mob. This varies with each barb. Some barbs I can hardly auto-attack. Some barbs I can just use demon quickshot. And some barbs I can triple spark and use everything I have. And it isn't a case of them possibly being afk at the moment. It could possibly be from macroing, which I am assuming is not as good as hands-on tanking. It's consistent on every mob and boss. The fine levels of difference make me believe it's all in the fine details. The stat build, the cultivation, learned skills, the gear, the skill of the player, everything. Every small detail adds up to create quite a noticeable gap in barb tanking ability.


    Yes I believe so as well. Although it doesn't make a whole lot of sense I squadded with a barb recently gear wasn't great didn't seem particularly skilled on the mobs he was high 70s low 80s barb. On fb 59 I steal aggro from archers BMs and even 90 barbs and keep it almost without trouble but I could not take aggro from this barb even with genies to increase my attack. So this really confuses me how I could take aggro from a 90 who was trying to keep it from me and a 80 who didn't try hard.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Wrathfulsynn - Heavens Tear
    Wrathfulsynn - Heavens Tear Posts: 165 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    I think you guys should face it. There are a million possible explanations for all of it. It could be that the barb is a blind chimpanzee randomly mashing buttons. It could be that the DD is secretly a GM's super-charged alt that would be deleted if discovered. I'll just throw this out there. There are some tanks that couldn't hold aggro from a wizard using rusty spoons. And some that could keep aggro from a pro DD with the gear of a god and a credit card with no limit.

    My explanation for all of it is simple. I blame it all on the cleric, for letting everyone live.
    Good post? d=(^_^)=b
    Bad post? q=(-_-)=p
    Troll post? t(^_^)t
  • Redmenace - Heavens Tear
    Redmenace - Heavens Tear Posts: 908 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Stickygreen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    someone sounds upset. if you cant keep agro its your own fault. i can MACRO tank, on rb bosses (no damage reduction) with Ty in my party, and keep agro. if i can macro tank better than other barbs, then there is something seriously wrong.

    Someone sounds like a Non-Factor. Welcome to the conversation, StickyDrawers.

    RedMenace

    \keep wavin' it around, eventually someone will point and giggle
    \\that's about all you can do with it
    A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
    Robert A. Heinlein
  • Stickygreen - Heavens Tear
    Stickygreen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,158 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Someone sounds like a Non-Factor. Welcome to the conversation,

    i lol'ed

    /the level 84 calling a 97 barb a non factor
    //especially in a pve argument
    ///cant get more fail than that
    //// i loled.. wait... i mention that alraedy... oh well
    Less QQ more Pew Pewb:thanks

    "Don't argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience."

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • XylolyX - Heavens Tear
    XylolyX - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Poison - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Heheh... we had a big laugh Monday when my Herc lasted a whole minute and a half (with me spam healing it) at the tail end of Belial, the tank would get aggro back and it would turn right back to the Herc on the next hit. I know the Herc didn't "steal" aggro since he random aggros but the tank did his best to try and keep it and we all had a very amusing time watching it.


    Hehehe...

    I was on BH69 with a new addition to my regular group: a wizzie. I'm tanking Pole and all of a sudden he starts walking away from me...I was like "WTF?!?!" and chased him down. I guess it was perfect timing on the Wizzie when I was waiting to cancel and he landed some high dmg. The cleric was freaking out since the wizzie was standing behind her. It was kinda funny, and I skipped a cancel to spam all my aggro skills.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Lvl10XBarb
    Lvl10XArcher
    lvl10XAssassin
  • Neolitus - Heavens Tear
    Neolitus - Heavens Tear Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Believe it or not i fully understand,it takes a DD who understands these things,as one myself i have had to learn at very low levels that being a DD is a support character
    Everyone needs to learn thier roles for it to work,sloppy squads can end up in disaster,DD,s can feel like they are doing nothing just standing and waiting for right time to attack and deliver thier attacks
    But all of this can work out and end up being fun and productive if everyone works together,pay attention guys
  • _Surreal_ - Heavens Tear
    _Surreal_ - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,458 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    NECRO...hey neo b:cuteb:byeb:bye
    TheEmpire

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • JanusZeal - Heavens Tear
    JanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Kouankyuuka - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Not naming anyone in particular, this post is to remind DD classes on their roles in Instances.

    Throughout my Bh runs, I have seen Archers, Wizards, Venos dps-ing as soon as the BM or Barb hit the mob or bosses.

    I believe DD classes exist to bring more DPS to the table, but it's also our responsibility to control our DPS. Whether the tank is higher in levels or lower in levels, we still need to control.

    I have seen Archer spamming skills as soon as barb hits the target, resulting in the exploding reavers in BH 39 to run to the Archer (center of party) and exploded. Or he/ she pull a mob while everyone is standing still.

    During Farren, she managed to pull aggro off a Barb by spamming all skills she has got (lower lvl than him/her).

    There was a post on Aggro mechanics that teaches the DD classes on when should be the starting point for nuking and shooting. Unless the Barb or BM is dealing our much higher DPS, if not you are guaranteed to pull aggro if you start shooting without the Tanker grabbing a firm aggro.

    Now the problem is these people usually do not listen or simply do not like other classes telling them what to do. Senior members in the run cordon their behaviour and asked me to 'chill out' when I highlighted the issues.

    I have Archers telling me that it's the tank that is the problem. But what kinda dps would you expect from a tank lower in 5 levels than the DD?

    Also, to take this into consideration, did the tanker have time to grab solid aggro in the first place?

    I certainly do not wish to rely on higher levels to get my BH done most of the time. I would like to group up with the same level range as I see it as a form of team building and class learning.

    But with failz DD who doesn't care or be bothered and just nuked whenever they want, it is certainly hair-raising to run with them.

    Sorry for the rant
    Ignoring all the e-peen **** that most of this thread turned into, at this lvl of BH it's going to happen a lot. Really the best thing a barb can do is simply do their FR's, do their roars, try their best to keep aggro (since big hitters are going to be more prominent later on), and warn the DD to wait if they went all out on dex or mag on their DD build. If they don't listen, the barb and cleric should let the DD pull aggro and figure their own way out of it. Simple as that. A good handful of DDs forget they are dime a dozen, and need to be put in their place.
  • Jazzboy - Heavens Tear
    Jazzboy - Heavens Tear Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Ignoring all the e-peen **** that most of this thread turned into, at this lvl of BH it's going to happen a lot. Really the best thing a barb can do is simply do their FR's, do their roars, try their best to keep aggro (since big hitters are going to be more prominent later on), and warn the DD to wait if they went all out on dex or mag on their DD build. If they don't listen, the barb and cleric should let the DD pull aggro and figure their own way out of it. Simple as that. A good handful of DDs forget they are dime a dozen, and need to be put in their place.


    simply put this could be said for any class, clerics DD'ing instead of healing when their supposed to... bm's who run off on their own trying to be superman, venos thinking their herc is invincable,Barbs not being able to hold agro cuz they wanna push their hp through the roof with points instead of refines. i work with a 95 tank... he holds agro from me when i spark and he doesnt even need to be in cat form to do it.... kinda sad DD's take the rap for pulling agro when its the barbs job to hold onto it. is it our fault they cant stat their char properly? no... should we be left for dead because you want to prove a point? not really... so before you run off thinking DD's are a dime a dozen... think... every other class is as well
  • Fallenangelx - Heavens Tear
    Fallenangelx - Heavens Tear Posts: 182 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    random agro stealing can be fun though, keeps everyone awake. b:surrender
  • The_Wall - Heavens Tear
    The_Wall - Heavens Tear Posts: 500 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    One nice thing about very aggressive damage dealers is they usually improve the playing skills of the Barbarians and Clerics. I would have to say for myself that because of them I became a much greater quality tanker. I have learned how to be very money efficient (Survival is non-factor at 23,000 HP as long as I am not reckless) and also solid aggro hold and the game dynamics behind it. Eventually these more aggressive damage dealers will back down after they take notice that it is a tanker that knows what their doing and work on doing max possible damage in a smooth manner. There is always the exception though of combination of so much attack rate along with a weapon refine of +10 or greater and demon spark. Wouldn't matter if I got my tanking axes refine to +12 I would not be able to hold because I cannot compete with the attack rate of other classes. Also if a Barbarian cannot hold aggro from Ty (Best damaging wizard I have 1st hand experience with) who only has a +10 Inferno Ravager and double my critical rate you could use some improvement in your ability to tank. He lags too much to take it b:laugh.

    RAWR! I'm a tiger
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • JanusZeal - Heavens Tear
    JanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Jazzboy - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    simply put this could be said for any class, clerics DD'ing instead of healing when their supposed to... bm's who run off on their own trying to be superman, venos thinking their herc is invincable,Barbs not being able to hold agro cuz they wanna push their hp through the roof with points instead of refines. i work with a 95 tank... he holds agro from me when i spark and he doesnt even need to be in cat form to do it.... kinda sad DD's take the rap for pulling agro when its the barbs job to hold onto it. is it our fault they cant stat their char properly? no... should we be left for dead because you want to prove a point? not really... so before you run off thinking DD's are a dime a dozen... think... every other class is as well
    Maybe you're overlooking the substance of the post and just being a sensitive DD? Okay, minus the maybe. A barb can spam FR, eat up their chi pool, and still have aggro yanked if a pure dex-statted archer or entirely mag wizard pulls off an amazing assortment of crits. Ever read the wizard forum and primarily what wizards, or even archers are overtly worried about? Yeah. High numbers and little else. The scenario above has happened before, and countless times. However, the OP isn't even on about the high levels you're talking about, and you seem to forget there are lower levels where people tend to be learning their class, and when observation isn't enough, there is no better lesson learned than the hard one.

    But since you decided to go this way, there are also higher levels that still are learning their class, regardless of the class, and sans oracles, and we can go into clerics (and I certainly do) in topics that talk about whiny clerics who don't like to actually heal (I have experienced them too and have no mercy). This one is about DD's, and indeed they are a dime a dozen. I play a wizard too and know her role, as well as a few places she is highly and particularly useful. I'm also careful around bosses and ominous-looking areas (knowing risk is high sometimes no matter what you do), and pay attention to how often the barb is flesh reaming or utilizing aoe or roar, noting the scenario in the OP, as well as what he is targeting (hey look AA is useful after all!). If all you do is hit things in a squad and not worry about anything else, you are a crappy **** DD no matter the level. It's this prevailing attitude (even worse, the rambo attitude in wizards and especially the rising number archers who think they are barbs because they are HA) which is why both wizards and archers rarely are in an FF and TT squad when I'm picking unless I have experienced them beforehand in other areas that they know what they are doing, and more importantly, know their place.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Jazzboy - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    i work with a 95 tank... he holds agro from me when i spark and he doesnt even need to be in cat form to do it....

    After that... everything else you said is pointless. I run around with the crappest gear an archer can have and NO... i repeat NO barb in human form can hold aggro from me.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Hyden_Brook - Heavens Tear
    Hyden_Brook - Heavens Tear Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    A small update:

    I'm currently playing a Wiz to see the damage bracket of this class at certain levels, to determine their probability of catching aggro.

    <
    I'm a LA Wiz at this level and I could crit for 6.3-6.6k. Normal Stone rain and Sandstorm hits for 3k each at least.

    If I went pure Mag, I would be doing at least 7k crits. If that Damage lands on the Boss mob at the beginning of the fight on Qingzi.... ok, Qingzi is Earth element so each shot is reduced to maybe 2.5 k.

    A crit of 5K lands when the Barb did not have sufficient time to grab aggro (happens all the time for the trigger happy folks), Qingzi will be happy to ue you as a target practice.

    I am going through DDs class to understand their capabilities.

    So, DDs really need to time their shots. b:thanks

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