New Type of Weapon

kiratsukasa

I like this idea. Although, we do have enough weapons already. And yet we're getting more soon. So why can we NOT get something like this?

Ikurei - Dreamweaver

Lady_marta - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Could a GM please lock this since this community is too stupid to comprehend simple logic?

Thanks. b:bye

log⋅ic [loj-ik]
-noun
1) the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.

2) a particular method of reasoning or argumentation

3) the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.

4) reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions

5) convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness

Ya know, I had a well thought out and logical explanation for just why we don't need such a weapon but then I realized something; everything I was going to say would have been repeating what everyone before me has already said.

You want more melee damage for fox form venos. Sure, that would be nice but then the balance between classes would get even more ****ed up than it already is. What you're asking for is to have higher damage per hit than a sword BM, faster attack rate than everything but a fist BM, greater defense than a BM of equal level, and still be able to step back to use ranged magic damage, have pets, and use debuffs. See what's wrong with that picture?

I said this before and I'll say it again, venos are a hybrid class. We do less damage in melee than BMs and we do less magic damage compared to clerics and wizards. On the other hand, we have an entire skill tree for ranged, magic skills while BMs are stuck in melee. Similarly, we have the option of using fox form when clerics and wizards are limited to only magic.

I don't even know why I'm bothering explaining this since you seem too stupid to comprehend simple logic. By your logic, if I were to mix half a cup of water and half a cup of beer then I should end up with 1 cup of undiluted beer (or pure water).

This thread degenerated into flaming since the first page. I should have used the magic word to bring andracil in to smite this thread to the ground long ago. Now, simply because OP has annoyed me and actually wants the thread closed I don't think I'm inclined to bother andracil at this time.b:bye

Off topic but to the person who said fists count as being unarmed, I tried it and it wouldn't let me use fox form (there go my hopes for a dex build veno *sigh*). Can any venos confirm that it isn't just some weird glitch that I have?

Accelerated - Sanctuary

Ikurei - Dreamweaver wrote: »

log⋅ic [loj-ik]
-noun
1) the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.

2) a particular method of reasoning or argumentation

3) the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.

4) reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions

5) convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness

Ya know, I had a well thought out and logical explanation for just why we don't need such a weapon but then I realized something; everything I was going to say would have been repeating what everyone before me has already said.

You want more melee damage for fox form venos. Sure, that would be nice but then the balance between classes would get even more ****ed up than it already is. What you're asking for is to have higher damage per hit than a sword BM, faster attack rate than everything but a fist BM, greater defense than a BM of equal level, and still be able to step back to use ranged magic damage, have pets, and use debuffs. See what's wrong with that picture?

I said this before and I'll say it again, venos are a hybrid class. We do less damage in melee than BMs and we do less magic damage compared to clerics and wizards. On the other hand, we have an entire skill tree for ranged, magic skills while BMs are stuck in melee. Similarly, we have the option of using fox form when clerics and wizards are limited to only magic.

I don't even know why I'm bothering explaining this since you seem too stupid to comprehend simple logic. By your logic, if I were to mix half a cup of water and half a cup of beer then I should end up with 1 cup of undiluted beer (or pure water).

This thread degenerated into flaming since the first page. I should have used the magic word to bring andracil in to smite this thread to the ground long ago. Now, simply because OP has annoyed me and actually wants the thread closed I don't think I'm inclined to bother andracil at this time.b:bye

Off topic but to the person who said fists count as being unarmed, I tried it and it wouldn't let me use fox form (there go my hopes for a dex build veno *sigh*). Can any venos confirm that it isn't just some weird glitch that I have?

Don't bother with this immature little princess. What whatever anyone else thinks is 'illogical' to her. While on the other hand, we're being much more logical into our refutes to her reasoning to amplify something that doesn't need amplifying. Not to mention that she hasn't been able to successfully refute against any of the arguments against her idea. Instead she just uses something along the line of "ZOMG WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS ALL WRONG AND ILLOGICAL, I'M COMPLETELY RIGHT AND THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT BECAUSE I'M TOTALLY A GENIUS WITHOUT ANYONE SINGLE HUMAN BEING ON THIS PLANET TO AGREE ON THIS OPINION!" She just wants her cake and eat it too.

The developers of the game created the current system through much more complex systems of test and trial than she obviously thought of while just thinking about making an imbalance to a already fine game.

Case in point. The majority doesn't like this idea, and they won't. Only a few childish fool would want an imbalance in the game.

And I'm quite sorry for mentioning the fist/claw option for venomancers to use in Fox Form. A venomancer friend of mine used a claw weapon to tank a boss, but once I tried it(on my venomancer toon), it didn't work. She hasn't confirmed how she used them to tank, so I'm not quite sure myself.

Lady_marta - Dreamweaver

Ikurei - Dreamweaver wrote: »

log⋅ic [loj-ik]
-noun
1) the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.

2) a particular method of reasoning or argumentation

3) the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.

4) reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions

5) convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness

Glad you can use a dictionary. It might help you later in life.

Ya know, I had a well thought out and logical explanation for just why we don't need such a weapon but then I realized something; everything I was going to say would have been repeating what everyone before me has already said.

Oh, please, enlighten me with your superior reasoning skills. Since you're SO much smarter than I, after all.

You want more melee damage for fox form venos. Sure, that would be nice but then the balance between classes would get even more ****ed up than it already is. What you're asking for is to have higher damage per hit than a sword BM, faster attack rate than everything but a fist BM, greater defense than a BM of equal level, and still be able to step back to use ranged magic damage, have pets, and use debuffs. See what's wrong with that picture?

I said this before and I'll say it again, venos are a hybrid class. We do less damage in melee than BMs and we do less magic damage compared to clerics and wizards. On the other hand, we have an entire skill tree for ranged, magic skills while BMs are stuck in melee. Similarly, we have the option of using fox form when clerics and wizards are limited to only magic.

I don't even know why I'm bothering explaining this since you seem too stupid to comprehend simple logic. By your logic, if I were to mix half a cup of water and half a cup of beer then I should end up with 1 cup of undiluted beer (or pure water).

BM this, BM that. BMs are a jack of all trades, master of none class. They can tank, but not like a Barb. They can deal damage, but not like a Wizard. They have a heal, but it's not on a Cleric's level. They can debuff, but not as well as a Cleric can. They have some range, but not like an Archer. They can lure, but not as well as a Veno. Yes, Venos are a hybrid class. In fact, Venos are THE hybrid class. Therefore they should excel at being a hybrid class. Sadly, the melee side of our skills falls short of excelling. As I said before, my idea would be considered a magic weapon, but with higher physical attack than magic attack. In other words, reversing the traditional magic weapons as we know them now. The only argument against that has been "the damage is almost that of a BM" which brings us back to the jack of all trades gig.

This thread degenerated into flaming since the first page. I should have used the magic word to bring andracil in to smite this thread to the ground long ago. Now, simply because OP has annoyed me and actually wants the thread closed I don't think I'm inclined to bother andracil at this time.b:bye

Because I'm sick of being flamed for defending my position. That is why I wish it to be closed.

Off topic but to the person who said fists count as being unarmed, I tried it and it wouldn't let me use fox form (there go my hopes for a dex build veno *sigh*). Can any venos confirm that it isn't just some weird glitch that I have?

I have already addressed that concern some time ago.

Accelerated - Sanctuary wrote: »

Don't bother with this immature little princess. What whatever anyone else thinks is 'illogical' to her. While on the other hand, we're being much more logical into our refutes to her reasoning to amplify something that doesn't need amplifying. Not to mention that she hasn't been able to successfully refute against any of the arguments against her idea. Instead she just uses something along the line of "ZOMG WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS ALL WRONG AND ILLOGICAL, I'M COMPLETELY RIGHT AND THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT BECAUSE I'M TOTALLY A GENIUS WITHOUT ANYONE SINGLE HUMAN BEING ON THIS PLANET TO AGREE ON THIS OPINION!" She just wants her cake and eat it too.

The developers of the game created the current system through much more complex systems of test and trial than she obviously thought of while just thinking about making an imbalance to a already fine game.

Case in point. The majority doesn't like this idea, and they won't. Only a few childish fool would want an imbalance in the game.

And I'm quite sorry for mentioning the fist/claw option for venomancers to use in Fox Form. A venomancer friend of mine used a claw weapon to tank a boss, but once I tried it(on my venomancer toon), it didn't work. She hasn't confirmed how she used them to tank, so I'm not quite sure myself.

I have yet to see anyone prove to me that greater physical attack on a weapon won't increase a fox form's damage. Which is what I was getting at in the first place. Instead of realizing this, I just get a bunch of numbers thrown at me while you say "here's your damage, I win, you fail". Even when I attempt to put you back on track I continue to get "you fail, here's your damage" which is not an argument against me in any way, shape, or form since it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. If you really wish to tell me I'm wrong, make ONE post that makes any reasonable sense that this will not work at all.

Now, if anyone would like to respond to this, please take it to PMs. I'll be more than happy to ignore your flames. Again, I am requesting that this thread be closed.

daphkate

I will say one thing on topic. I like your idea, it just simply is not fair to other classes. Perhaps a better idea would be having fist and claw weapons capable of being called barehanded. This way the venomancers will have a new weapon that has already been implanted into the game and that another class can use.

And I simply did not pm because I felt it unesscary to have no one else see this.

Lady_marta - Dreamweaver

daphkate wrote: »

I will say one thing on topic. I like your idea, it just simply is not fair to other classes. Perhaps a better idea would be having fist and claw weapons capable of being called barehanded. This way the venomancers will have a new weapon that has already been implanted into the game and that another class can use.

And I simply did not pm because I felt it unesscary to have no one else see this.

Changing Fists and Claws to being barehanded IS a good idea, but then the BMs would cry about Venos using "their" weapons. What I'm suggesting stays within the realm of magic weapons and has physical attack 100, magic attack 50, while regular magic weapons have physical attack 50, magic attack 100 (the numbers are relative, of course). Basically, having the magic attack take a backseat while the physical attack increases. Sure, a Veno would be able to switch back to caster, but the magic damage would end up in the pits. Basing the damage on the magic attack of our weapons is another path to take as well. However, that would make things EXTREMELY unbalanced. As kiratsukasa pointed out earlier, they ARE giving us new weapons fairly soon anyway, so it can't be that hard to do.

Tactica - Lost City

Accelerated - Sanctuary wrote: »

It's the same to all classes..?
Including venomancers. This chick wants a new weapon that pretty much by-passes this limitation. <.<

It's kind of like giving a fist blademaster the option of letting them learn a new range stun skill that they can use when they're using a bow.

Or letting archers stun while in melee combat range!

Are you seriously on something? Do you seriously think you only need just 1 or 2 extra dex to allow a pure VIT/STR barb to use a fist/sword/pole/bow weapon?

And guess wut. Barbs also have a weapon restriction to transforming into a tiger. They CANNOT GO INTO TIGER FORM WHILE USING SOME **** ZERK SWORD/POLE/FIST. Just like venomancers, they have a weapon restriction into going tiger, which is where they get most of their super natural HP from.

This idea is still stupid.
1. Give us a all class phoenix and hercule with the pet heal skill and pet revive skill (since this chick is obviously saying that since venos have a potential at physical combat, they should get a physical weapon too) so since all classes have a potential at soloing bosses and mobs, why shouldn't their potential of soloing things not be embraced and amplified?
2. Give blademasters bow skills (since this chick is obviously saying that since venos have a potential at physical combat, they should get a physical weapon too) so us blademasters can totally use our potential at range combat.
3. Give archers melee combat skills (since this chick is obviously saying that since venos have a potential at physical combat, they should get a physical weapon too) so you archers should totally get a advantage in using fists, if you chose to.

I mean this game should totally about embracing on each classes' potentials, right? Just like this princess said in her earlier post, and I quote:

---

Who said pure anything. I stated an option, nothing more. I didn't say it was reasonable, practical, or even useful. I said it was an option.

Depending how you distribute points, and what your gear is like, you can still have 10k+hp in 'human'.

Anyway, quit trying to put words in my mouth, thanks. She's asking for an alternative, not a means of avoiding limitations. Depending how you roll a class, you can easily make something that excells at nothing, but does something it wasn't meant to. Venomancer's have the option of physical combat, and get bonuses to suit.

Of course, it gimps your damage, but that's the whole point? They're not going to come out with a new weapon designed for HA veno's, are they? No, all I offered was a rather different alternative.

Maybe you should learn to read what is said, instead of trying to interprit between the non-existant lines.

Simply because it doesn't do what your little mindset thinks it should, doesn't mean it won't serve a purpose. Sure, maybe they should have rolled another class if they want a tank/distance attacker/whatever, but that doesn't really matter, does it. It's an unorthadox option, nothing more.

To use any "decent" fist or claw, you need above-average strength, BM's get smack, etc. etc.

Enough with this inane "point" your trying to make.

Ikurei - Dreamweaver

Lady_marta - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Glad you can use a dictionary. It might help you later in life.

Actually, the definition was for your benefit as I have yet to see any logic in your posts.b:bye

Oh, please, enlighten me with your superior reasoning skills. Since you're SO much smarter than I, after all.

That would be a moot point seeing as how, as I said before, I would only be repeating what everyone else has already said.

BM this, BM that. BMs are a jack of all trades, master of none class. They can tank, but not like a Barb. They can deal damage, but not like a Wizard. They have a heal, but it's not on a Cleric's level. They can debuff, but not as well as a Cleric can. They have some range, but not like an Archer. They can lure, but not as well as a Veno. Yes, Venos are a hybrid class. In fact, Venos are THE hybrid class. Therefore they should excel at being a hybrid class. Sadly, the melee side of our skills falls short of excelling. As I said before, my idea would be considered a magic weapon, but with higher physical attack than magic attack. In other words, reversing the traditional magic weapons as we know them now. The only argument against that has been "the damage is almost that of a BM" which brings us back to the jack of all trades gig.

Did you seriously call BMs a hybrid class? Fists, swords, poles, and axes are all melee weapons. Common sense would dictate that BMs are a melee class. Comparing a BM's damage to that of a wizard is stupid. Wizards deal magic damage from [I]range[/I] while BMs deal melee physical damage. A comparison between archers and BMs would be more accurate since they both deal physical damage but it's still flawed because archers are ranged.

A BM can tank but that's mostly because BMs usually wear heavy armor and throw more points into vit than any of the ranged classes since they're melee and don't really have the option of kiting in most situations. BMs have 1 skill which generates aggro (Stream Strike) and it isn't really that great. Yes, BMs can tank (and they can tank pretty well) but that comes from being a melee, heavy armor class.

As for heals, 1 heal does not mean that there's a link between clerics and BMs. A BM is melee (funny how I keep bringing that up) but they can't soak up damage like a barb so they'd need something to help keep them alive. That's where Diamond Sutra comes in.

Debuffs? Every class has some type of debuff (yes, every class). This is like saying that any class with AoEs and stuns (again, every class) is a mini-BM.

Now, as for why I keep comparing venos to BMs. Well, most people see barbs as tanks and barbs have that 50% damage reduction in True Form so that makes BMs the "main" melee damage dealers. If you had asked for more defense then I'd be talking about barbs instead but you asked for more damage so you get BMs.

Because I'm sick of being flamed for defending my position. That is why I wish it to be closed.

Most of the people who've posted don't agree with your idea. Perhaps there's a reason for that. Some have offered alternatives but none so far have met with your approval (OK, so the fist/claw thing didn't work, would've severely gimped magic attack anyway).

Here's the thing though, from what I can tell you're only level 20 so you'd have very little experience with the game, and you admitted yourself that you don't play a fox form veno. First one isn't an just "lol ur low lvl noob" insult, it's just a fact. If you haven't played much then you probably won't know enough about the game to give decent suggestions. Secondly, if you don't play a fox form veno then you really shouldn't be making suggestions on how to improve one. Besides, a well-played fox form veno is scary enough.

I have already addressed that concern some time ago.

Yes, but I tried it before I read you post and no one responded to you so I decided to ask again instead of making a new thread.

I have yet to see anyone prove to me that greater physical attack on a weapon won't increase a fox form's damage. Which is what I was getting at in the first place. Instead of realizing this, I just get a bunch of numbers thrown at me while you say "here's your damage, I win, you fail". Even when I attempt to put you back on track I continue to get "you fail, here's your damage" which is not an argument against me in any way, shape, or form since it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. If you really wish to tell me I'm wrong, make ONE post that makes any reasonable sense that this will not work at all.

You probably haven't seen anyone prove otherwise because of two reasons:
1) Higher physical damage on a weapon will increase fox form's damage.
2) No one's been saying that it doesn't.

The reason why most of us are against your idea is because if it's implemented then a fox form veno could potentially do more damage in melee than most BMs (and as I said above in this same post, BMs are the "main" melee DD). You'd have a melee class that has more defense than a BM, does more damage, has a faster attack rate than everything but fist BMs (I feel like I've said all this before), comes with a pet to deal more damage, has lots of debuffs (yeah, definitely said this before), and can run back to cast magic if they want to. Is it starting to sound even the tiniest bit overpowered to you?

As for why we were throwing numbers at you, what the hell do you think damage is?

Now, if anyone would like to respond to this, please take it to PMs. I'll be more than happy to ignore your flames. Again, I am requesting that this thread be closed.

Honestly, if telling me to not post in your thread the first time didn't work then what made you think it would work this time? Don't worry though, I'm tired of arguing with you so this my last post in your thread.

I have one last thing to say though. Think about your idea. Don't just get pissed that others don't like it and keep defending it. If people don't like it then there might be a reason for it. You obviously can't get everyone to like any one thing but the majority doesn't give a damn (seeing as how only the same few people are posting), most of the ones who did post don't like your idea, and only a couple people like it.

Grippieluver - Lost City

Ok, we dont need a new mag wep, and everyone can stop being rude to one another, I think this case is closed, NO NEW MAG WEP! ok? ok. Thank you.

Lady_marta - Dreamweaver

You know, Ikurei, I WAS going to respond to your last post due to the utter ignorance of it, but I felt my IQ start to drop for considering explaining it to you. Again.

I am requesting that this thread be locked. I'm tired of being flamed for not being a level 90 whatever and "have no experience with it" since I have a life outside of a video game.

Ikurei - Dreamweaver

Sorry, I lied. Last post in this thread for real. The magic word to call andracil down to smite a thread to the depths of oblivion is "necro." Normally used to mark a thread which has been brought forth from a month long (or longer) death so that andracil can easily find and kill it. It is still used for that purpose but it also seems to be used more uncommonly to close a thread which has become a raging inferno. Use it wisely (I'm pretty sure that andracil's pissed at me for bothering her).

Meh, I was bored when I typed this.b:surrender

Edit: Just read what you typed. I'll ignore the first part since I just realized that I've been acting like this. For the second part, the low level thing wasn't meant as an insult. It's just common sense. If you're new at something then you won't understand everything about it. That applies to almost everything. Everyone was new at some point so I try not to insult new players so if I did insult you then I'd like to apologize. Honestly though, I'm level 66 right now and there's still **** that confuses me about this game and reading about something on the forums (no matter how detailed) isn't the same as playing.

There was a careful balance between the classes in PW. A few additions to the game completely screwed up that balance. Everyone's gotten used to/adapted to the new "balance" but now we're all a bit wary of any changes/new content and worry about how it might **** up the balance again. Just look at any of the tideborn threads if you need proof. Even before someone posted the skills that the tideborn would supposedly have there were people complaining about how they'd be overpowered.

Did I overreact a bit in this thread? Probably. I apologize for that also, but I'd rather not have a new weapon and keep the semblance of balance that we now have than risk having the entire thing slanted in any class's favor again.

And in case the search doesn't turn up my first necro, I'll say it again. necro

Zoe - Heavens Tear

This is not a necro it was made last week. I didn't read all of this but sage melee mastery adds not just 120% weapon damage but 200% instead. That's to make up for the lack of damage from magic weapons that we have to use in foxform. If we got magic weapons with higher phy attack it would be a bit overpowered.

Aadi - Lost City

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This is not a necro it was made last week.

The mods search for "necro" all the time to find threads that were necroed. Ikurei used the word to attract the mods since the OP wants the thread closed.

andracil

Dang you guys, you're too smart. But yes, saying necro will call me over to a thread >_> Closed on request!