Sage/Hell

Alphae - Lost City · July 2009

What is your decision?

I spent a long time writing my post QQ b:surrender

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear · July 2009

Bowlinbob - Lost City wrote: »

The point is..Riekra or w/e her name is was out of line in her post, and now you come in, sniffing her a** defending someone that doesnt deserve to be defended.

Same way you saw her post as an offense, I saw yours as an offense based on a generalization. Besides, you used a argument that is proven wrong, the all pve players and pvp players is just an excuse, you can be an outstanding pvper and be in a pve server, or you can be the worse pvper in the world and play on a pvp server. Skill has nothing to do with where you play, and more how you play.

Sabariel - Lost City · July 2009

Sabariel - Lost City wrote: »

I'd also appreciate if you'd stop attacking each other >.>

Did everyone not read this?

Oh, and I'm going Sage b:thanks

Alphae - Lost City · July 2009

Sabariel - Lost City wrote: »

Did everyone not read this?

Oh, and I'm going Sage b:thanks

If you're planning to stay LA, that is what I would have picked too =D Yay Saba, and GL!

Sabariel - Lost City · July 2009

Alphae - Lost City wrote: »

If you're planning to stay LA, that is what I would have picked too =D Yay Saba, and GL!

b:cuteb:cute

MentalEdge - Heavens Tear · July 2009

Alphae - Lost City wrote: »

Disclaimer: Basically c/p what I said in another thread.

From looking at the demon vs sage skills, demon to me is improving buffs/debuffs and granting more special abilities while sage is all about raw damaging power.

As a magic veno, not pure vit, and heavy on the phys res stones, demon interests me more personally. I do good damage, and the improved debuffs on mag spells and longer amp appeals to me.

However, I know there have been sage mag venos that do very well. There are also both sage and demon LA and HA venos.

It really depends on YOUR playing style and preference.

To me, decreasing the cooldown and duration of the main buffs and debuffs I use (amp, bramble guard), increasing the power of the ironwood and giving me a chance for armor break, and adding a debuff to venomous, is the improvement in my debuffing power that I want for MY play style.

Hitting on some of the main arguments people use and why I prefer demon to sage:

1. Fox form. Fox is a last resort for me. I never fox except to amp and purge. My pdef is so low, it's dumb to think fox is going to make a difference. Therefore, the speed increase is far more useful to me than a multiplication of my measly pdef.

2. Sage chi bonus/sage spark.The chi bonuses and spark of sage are nice but not at all essential. Veno is one of the least chi-dependent classes out there. Furthermore, I don't spark while grinding, which is 99% of my playing time, so while the sage spark is nice, it's again not necessary for me. My spark is for my tank, not for me... Nothing wrong with playing behind your pet in PvE, spark is a waste in PvE in general except in very specific situations in my humble opinion--most mobs don't merit a spark. Soul transfusion is very useful to me, since I've got vit and therefore an improved HP regen rate. I'd rather improve the things I use all the time vs a "better" (to some) thing I use only very rarely.

Actually as sage outside of pvp and in,my chi goes up incredibly fast with venomous's chi gain and master li's technique,in a TW i always have opportunities to spark and the apoth chi pot just makes me a lean mean sage sparking machine,ok well it did i don't play very much now

3. Ironwood scarab. Ok, it *kind of* puts me off that there is only a 20% chance to armor break and an 80% chance to do nothing. BUT with the debuff on venemous, I can make up for that with my nukes in grinding, and if I really get sad and want to see that little pink icon thingy over the mob I'll whip out a pet with Pierce. =p

Saba, it's all about personal play style. I'd look at the spells/fox skills you find yourself using most often, and combine that with what you want your culti to help you do most--lessen your weaknesses, or improve your strengths (I picked, improve my strengths--I'd rather get **** at what I'm not good at, and be really good at what I am good at, rather than mediocre at all of it). Make your decision based upon your play style, not what other people do.

EDIT: Wow, this became a wall of text pretty fast O_o and I missed all the drama whilst typing it.

(10 chars)

_River - Heavens Tear · July 2009

Sabariel - Lost City wrote: »

I think its safe to say this thread is officially broken. Its gone way off topic, but I've already reached my decision. I would like to offer my thanks to those of you that were constructive.

And, Reikara, there is absolutely no other way anyone could have taken your post rather than an insult. An insult to me - and to Walterthewf. I understand you could have meant differently, but people don't read what you meant to say, they read what is spelled out in front of them.

I'd also appreciate if you'd stop attacking each other >.>
Peanut is my friend and was trying to defend me because he too saw your post to be an insult. b:cute Thanks, Peanut

I understood exactly what Reikara said. if people slowed down their reading just a tad bit, and maybe think about her words, it wasn't an insult. And, like her, I had to keep reading to figure out why everyone was saying she insulted them.

But since you made your decision, I won't post my opinions about demon/sage. (me having gone demon btw).

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary · July 2009

lol, i still think you made a bad choice with that

. sage has way better dmg output and debuffs!

Alphae - Lost City · July 2009

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »

lol, i still think you made a bad choice with that . sage has way better dmg output and debuffs!

In your opinion ; ) I've looked at other classes Demon/Sage options and I think veno is easily the most well-balanced of the six.

_River - Heavens Tear · August 2009

With Signako's help, I've given this choice a lot of thought, and, yes my damage is probably not as much as it could be, but I wouldn't change my decision if I had it to do over

I'm happy with demon. I balanced my character out in my opinion. I'm not overly powerful to where I pull off my pets, but I'm not weak in as many areas as I was. So i feel my veno is balanced, and to me that's important.

I have seriously thought about the benefits of sage though and either one is amazing, though the choice really depends on your play style

So both, as others have said, are awesome

Fatalvenom - Lost City · August 2009

Why isn't demon considered "bad" damage vs sage when the debuffs demon receives from its spells will increase the overall damage output and some of its spells are faster casting?

Shouldn't this bring the damage inline with sage or even surpass it (especially with more crits)? Example.. Venomous Scarab demon...30% wood resists reduction that will increase your damage. Or Ironwood Scarab with a chance at lowering physical resist to 0 ... which will help your herc or nix do a lot more damage particularly on heavy tanks.

Also some skills (good ones like) Noxious gas and lucky scarab are quicker recast timers. They are heavy hitting skills. We can use them quicker with demon which means more damage per second (DPS) then a sage.

For pvp purge is a big skill and in demon form its 25 second reduction in time (good for TW).

I think people see sages 25% more dmg wood mastery and over generalize its epicness and assume its therefore the best? Or perhaps the difference in the spark skill.. the 200% more magic attack you get in sage and overlook the 150% more weapon damage skill you get on demon side?

Debuffing can permit higher damage. Quicker casting spells is higher DPS and crits pwn for dmg. At the very least it brings demon and sage in line with each other for damage.

Also, on a side note, why do people who use LA assume demon is a bad way to spec for this? Wouldn't demon be the wiser choice for LA already puts your dex higher, so your crit is higher and thereby demon wood mastery increase also gives another 2% crit increase. It starts to make you a crit specialist.

I understand people like going sage as a heavy armor since your def is very high and the fox form sage benefits that high tanking to best case scenario... but LA can go either way demon or sage... with benefits in both directions.

Its easy to see why a lot of people stereo type sage as being pve and demon as pvp. Because demon is heavily slanted for pvp (crit, debuffs, quicker skills) and sage being middle of the road possibly leaning toward pve benefits.

Hopefully people can constructively answer, discuss or debate my points... as I have 99% made my decision to go demon, but I am still open to the idea of sage at this time. I like to hear what people have to say.

Zoe - Heavens Tear · August 2009

Sage conistant damage > demon chance damage is my view

Do I want an ironwood that only has a 20% chance to do anything at all? Or do I want an ironwood with a 100% chance to give -40% def for 20 seconds every time I cast it?

Do I want a faster cooldown on purge? Or do I want to not need one because my purge can aoe?

Do I want more crit %, which is completely random and totaly unreliable? Or do I want a guarenteed 25% more damage per cast no matter what?

It's questions like this you should be asking yourself when you choose to go sage or demon.

Alphae - Lost City · August 2009

@Fatalvenom
What I see more in demon even than quickening my spell casts is adding debuffs to the mag side of my tree.

I'm arcane and I'm quite sure I'm going demon, and I don't PvP a whole ton.

Improving the length of my amp, for instance, will give me more time amped when I'm spam healing bosses and amp is all I have time for.

Improving my bramble guard from 60 to 75% will help my tank keep aggro.

Adding speed to my foxform will save me more in PvP situations, AND PvE situations, (combined with my vit) much more than the multiplication of my fairly lousy p. def--even with good shards.

Adding a debuff to venemous is going to highly improve my nukes in PvE, and adding a chance for armor break is going to be more nasty in PvP combined with my nix than an additional 5% (or whatever it is) on sage's ironwood, even with the chance. Reducing phys defense only adds about 200 to my pet's damage anyway, which my debuff on venemous can make up for.

The AOE on purge is pretty small--only 5m, which isn't hardly anything. A lower cooldown is going to help nearly as much in TW as a situational AOE would, perhaps more depending on where you're stationed.

@Zoe
We don't ask ourselves slanted questions unless we've already made a decision.

Crit being totally random and unreliable? Too bad there's not a single class in the game that relies completely on crits for damage output.

The bottom line (my advice): Look at demon and sage skills, Fatal (it sounds like you have extensively). Pick the ones you use the most--I'm not talking about situation, oh three weeks ago in this dungeon this skill was useful, I'm talking I use it all the time and this is the skill that I'm going to pull out 99% of the time. Look at the demon/sage benefits. Which ones would work with your playstyle better? Chalk it up under the appropriate category. Whichever comes out with more wins.

I'm going demon because it puts debuffs on my magic side, lenthens my amp, strengthens my reflect, and adds what I consider to be a very useful skill to my foxform.

Belial - Heavens Tear · August 2009

Alphae - Lost City wrote: »

@Fatalvenom
Improving the length of my amp, for instance, will give me more time amped when I'm spam healing bosses and amp is all I have time for.

Not that I'd try to change your mind, but there's a very good post here by Solandri which calculates the difference between Sage and Demon Amplify concluding that Sage does, in fact, do 2.5% more damage than Demon.

About the triple spark - I don't use it in battle as such, I use it for the 20% mana it gives me (usually when I forget to intersoul switch b:chuckle). I find that aspect of it mighty useful!

woyaa · August 2009

Primary:
Venomous: Hell
Ironwood: Heaven
Fox Form: Heaven (Hell is still god for escape)
Bramble Guard: Hell (MUST)

Secondary:
Purge: Heaven, but Hell can still be great
Amplify Damage: Heaven, but Hell can still be great

These are the 89 Skils you will need/use.

_River - Heavens Tear · August 2009

woyaa wrote: »

Primary:
Venomous: Hell
Ironwood: Heaven
Fox Form: Heaven (Hell is still god for escape)
Bramble Guard: Hell (MUST)

Secondary:
Purge: Heaven, but Hell can still be great
Amplify Damage: Heaven, but Hell can still be great

These are the 89 Skils you will need/use.

As previously mentioned though, basing your decision on some skills isn't quite the best idea. It also has to do with damage output and what the player's play style is. My play style, demon works best since I rounded my character.

For others, sage is better as it suits their build/style. Not all venos use purge and amp damage (mostly on pve servers if I recall since pvp its a much needed thing). Those are good skills to look at, but you have to consider all of them, not just a select few.

I do agree with the points you've made, though, I just don't recommend basing any huge decision like sage/demon on a handful of skills when, like someone said earlier, you have lots of skills that will be unlocked in the future (not sure how soon).

And archers rely on their crit damage, btw. That's why those with the strict dex build have huge crit rates and they want everything crit. wizzies are the same. Damage dealers of any kind rely on huge crit rates. one of the reasons I went demon was cause of the crits. I'm light armor, and a bit of a damage dealer in the crit areas, but I get lots of gear with added dex and channeling to make me attack faster.

I also prefer the cooldown differences, over the aoe sometimes. since if there isn't more than one target in the area, why have an aoe purge? in pvp you will most likely find that not all people travel in groups, so an aoe purge is useless and if someone else comes along, I'd rather have the almost instant cooldown over an aoe since I'd be able to cast it again. TW it would be benefitted by both. faster cool down would mean you can easily spam it as needed.

Really both demon and sage are awesome, its just depending mostly on play style and how your character is built rather than skills alone.

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary · August 2009

Shouldn't this bring the damage inline with sage or even surpass it (especially with more crits)? Example.. Venomous Scarab demon...30% wood resists reduction that will increase your damage. Or Ironwood Scarab with a chance at lowering physical resist to 0 ... which will help your herc or nix do a lot more damage particularly on heavy tanks.

i for one rely on sparks alot due to the MP consumption of sage skills. the chi from venomous+ lucky + phoenix healing + chi move = 3 sparks in about 20-30s after the last celestial eruption i used. that 900% bonus makes a huge difference.

ironwood, yes the benefit is nice BUT only 20% chance to work. i partied a demon veno last night for a boss. her ironwood didnt go off once in the entire ten minutes we partied. its almost useless to her, and she just uses it as a closer to finish damage with a spike. id rather have 40% guarenteed in PVP than shooting it off and praying it works.

Also some skills (good ones like) Noxious gas and lucky scarab are quicker recast timers. They are heavy hitting skills. We can use them quicker with demon which means more damage per second (DPS) then a sage.

our noxious has double the fixed damage and DOT compared to yours, that doesnt surpass it, even with a shorter cool (which its cool is that long to begin with.) the longer stun duration on our lucky can be more beneficial in battle than the extra damage you can get it off in. 4s stun is yummy in TW, PVP, and PVE in my eyes.

Improving the length of my amp, for instance, will give me more time amped when I'm spam healing bosses and amp is all I have time for.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=2935041&postcount=9 <- what more proof do you need? sage amp > demon amp lol.

Adding speed to my foxform will save me more in PvP situations, AND PvE situations, (combined with my vit) much more than the multiplication of my fairly lousy p. def--even with good shards.

whats the point with holy path on genies, and the cool down from switching between fox and human. its not like the running boost lasts that long, and to use it again, itd take a bit of time. with sage fox + def buffs, i can tank some of the nastiest AOEs ive ever seen from later dungeon bosses way better than any robe wearers ive seen.

theres 2 lovely skills also:
SAGE SOUL DEGENERATION!: as good as a sage sharpened tooth arrow @ 20% hp debuff on targets. how is that NOT sexy lol?
SAGE SUMMER SPRINT!:Sage's Summer Sprint acts as an instant self purify, which is very useful for grinding any mobs that have any sort of debuff to throw at you. demon's only makes you immune to new ones for 6s after the activation.

sage's wood mastery is far more beneficial to any veno... we're not archers we shouldnt have to rely on a totally random crit to PVP/PVE.

although, its all about playstyle and personal preference i stand with my opinion sage is the superior choice for any caster.

Solandri - Heavens Tear · August 2009

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Do I want an ironwood that only has a 20% chance to do anything at all? Or do I want an ironwood with a 100% chance to give -40% def for 20 seconds every time I cast it?

The problem with Demon Ironwood is that most mobs have mediocre defense. Picking a boss at random, Cenequus Polearm in FB69 is level 75, and has 3204 defense. If you're level 75 and fighting him, he gets 51.6% DR. 48.4% of damage gets through.

If you hit him with regular Ironwood, that decreases his defense to 0.7*3204 = 2243, and he gets 42.8% DR. 57.2% of damage gets through - an 18.% increase over no Ironwood.

If you hit him with Sage Ironwood, that decreases his defense to 0.6*3204 = 1922, and he gets 39.05% DR. 60.95% of damage gets through - a 25.9% increase over no ironwood.

If you hit him with Demon Ironwood, 80% of the time he gets no debuff, 20% of the time his pdef goes to zero. So that's 0.8*48.4% + 0.2*100% = 58.7% of damage gets through on average. A 21.8% increase over no Ironwood.

Now if instead of PvE, imagine you're in PvP against a L75 barb with 10k pdef. The numbers work out like this:

No Ironwood = 23.1% damage gets through
Regular Ironwood = 30.0% damage gets through (29.9% increase)
Sage Ironwood = 33.3% damage gets through (44.2% increase)
Demon Ironwood = 0.8*23.1% + 0.2*100% = 38.5% damage gets through on average (66.7% increase)

So against high pdef targets (e.g. melee classes in PvP), Demon Ironwood works better. Against medium pdef targets (e.g. bosses in PvE), Sage Ironwood works better. The kicker is [?] level bosses seem to have even lower pdef than Cenequus.

That said:

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »

ironwood, yes the benefit is nice BUT only 20% chance to work. i partied a demon veno last night for a boss. her ironwood didnt go off once in the entire ten minutes we partied. its almost useless to her, and she just uses it as a closer to finish damage with a spike. id rather have 40% guarenteed in PVP than shooting it off and praying it works.

You have to remember though that Demon Venomous gets a 30% Wood resist debuff. So what you lose from Ironwood's pdef debuff, you make back with Venomous' wood resist debuff. This isn't going to help as much in parties (unless you've got a veno-heavy group), but in solo caster form, I think it gives Demon a pretty clear advantage. The above calcs showed that on bosses Demon Ironwood, even with its 20% chance to fire, gives about as much advantage as regular Ironwood over time. Now toss in the 30% wood resist debuff and I think it's clear that in most cases the Demon build is going to do more damage.

I'm unsure what this will do to aggro. When I tested the aggro from pet Pierce, the increased damage did not result in increased aggro. The aggro calc seemed to be done based on what the damage would've been if there had been no debuff. I haven't figured out a way to test this with Ironwood, but considering it and pet Pierce overwrite each other I have to think it works the same. I don't have access to Demon Venomous so I can't say if that behaves similarly from an aggro perspective. Assuming it does, the Demon veno wouldn't suffer any more aggro problems than the Sage veno.

whats the point with holy path on genies, and the cool down from switching between fox and human. its not like the running boost lasts that long, and to use it again, itd take a bit of time. with sage fox + def buffs, i can tank some of the nastiest AOEs ive ever seen from later dungeon bosses way better than any robe wearers ive seen.

Holy path takes 75 energy - that's a ton. If your genie has 45 vit (145 energy), 45 mag (1.9 energy/sec regen), you will be able to use it once, run for 6 seconds, use it again to run for another 6 seconds, then you have to wait 36 seconds before you can use it again. After that it's 39.5 sec between uses.

If your genie has 5 vit (105 energy), 45 mag, you will be able to use it once, run for 6 seconds, wait 17.7 sec before using it again. After that it's 39.5 sec between uses. This is the config of my genie right now. About half the time it isn't enough to run past those annoying catacomb dragons in TT1-2. You have to get lucky and get all 3 of them bunched up before you try to run past. Otherwise Holy Path quits before you've outrun the last one, and it's very easy to die in that 17.7 sec waiting for it to be available again.

The speed boost from Demon fox form can be applied continuously until you're out of mana. It's not as fast as Holy Path, but in many situations a smaller continuous speed increase is superior to a faster but shorter speed increase.

Hmm, reading this it sounds like I'm pro-Demon. I'm actually planning to go Sage. I just felt that some of these arguments against Demon were a bit unfair.

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary · August 2009

If your genie has 5 vit (105 energy), 45 mag, you will be able to use it once, run for 6 seconds, wait 17.7 sec before using it again. After that it's 39.5 sec between uses. This is the config of my genie right now. About half the time it isn't enough to run past those annoying catacomb dragons in TT1-2. You have to get lucky and get all 3 of them bunched up before you try to run past. Otherwise Holy Path quits before you've outrun the last one, and it's very easy to die in that 17.7 sec waiting for it to be available again.

lol, in 1-2 at that first ball they made it so theres only 1 dragon, but i do see your point :P. my genie has 70 vit and 50 mag, and rest in dex (70/90 longevity) so i can use it fairly often in dungeons :P.

Sage/Hell

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