Fist/Claw BM for PK...
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AirunElMarem - Heavens Tear wrote: »Fists: Physical attack:179-197 Attack rate: 1.43, so 30*1,43=42,9 (number of attacks). I just pick the maximum dmg, so 197*42,9=8451,3 dmg! With minimum dmg: 179*42,9=7679,1 dmg!
Bow: Physical attack:257-477 Attack rate: 0,67, so 30*0,67=20,1 (number of attacks). 477*20,1=9587.7 dmg! With minimum dmg: 257*20,1=5165,7 dmg!
Okay now you can say, that the archer have low chance to steal agro from you, becouse fistbm's average dmg is higher. This is maybe true on bosses, but you can't reach the mob and the archer will kill it in bh.
But a lot of time if you steal agro from an arhcer that means you have a lot of money, and the archer was poor. The archer have a bit more crit rate, it's 100% that the archer do more dmg than you, becouse you dont get +dmg from dex, but the archer have lower str, and higher dex.
Lvl 43 Fist need 70Str, 86 dex; lvl42 bow need 25str, 128 dex. Okay here we see that the BM get extra dmg from 70 stat point, and the archer get extra dmg from 128 statpoints (you can say that you had more str, but believe me lvl 42 archer almost got 200 dex).
Archers have higher crit rate, archer do more dmg when they land a critical hit. Archers don't need to run to the mob, this gives them +seconds to do dmg.
This means that the Archers are a bit better from BMs. And this will change only when you get some -interval stuffs(not one), and high lvl fists.
Only thing is, there is other stuff left out. An archer will crit higher, we will crit more. Simply because we get a larger amount of attacks that can crit. And as their crit % increases, we get access to -int gear that means that many more chances for crits.
For average, you just multiply average DPS by crit rate, that's how crit % will affect over-all average damage. And in your above example, if a BM has 0% crit and archer has 40%, they still will not deal as much average DPS. The archer needs 48% crit rate with BM somehow achieving 0% to equal out the average damage. Then toss in sparks, and it gets even further apart.
Admittedly I preferred getting my DQ bracers before, but all your example did is show how even without -int BMs deal superior damage compared to an archer, even counting crits.
And archer range = more seconds to damage doesn't really count for anything in squad instances. It's normally let tank get aggro, then attack. If an archer is drawing aggro against mobs he can't kill before they reach him, that's just bad playing.Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura
Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx
:NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.0 -
Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »Only thing is, there is other stuff left out. An archer will crit higher, we will crit more. Simply because we get a larger amount of attacks that can crit. And as their crit % increases, we get access to -int gear that means that many more chances for crits.
Okay I left out crits... But you think -interval stuffs are awsome. You will hit faster with 0,05/sec. This is not too much, so till you dont have 2-3 stuffs what gives you -int you wont feel it. And those stuffs are really exensive...Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »For average, you just multiply average DPS by crit rate, that's how crit % will affect over-all average damage. And in your above example, if a BM has 0% crit and archer has 40%, they still will not deal as much average DPS. The archer needs 48% crit rate with BM somehow achieving 0% to equal out the average damage. Then toss in sparks, and it gets even further apart.
I Didn't simulate a 30 sec fight, I didn't count with defense, so you can say what mob are they hitting? I think you just want to find any misstake in my comment. Archer wins in all fields, all circumstances If the BM and archer are near each other in lvl,skills,equipments.
It doesn't mean what way do you see this topic, the archer have bit more dmg from stats,
and from other things.Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »Admittedly I preferred getting my DQ bracers before, but all your example did is show how even without -int BMs deal superior damage compared to an archer, even counting crits.
An archer can do more damage with a single hit, than a fistBM with crit. Archers also have -int stuffs.Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »And archer range = more seconds to damage doesn't really count for anything in squad instances. It's normally let tank get aggro, then attack. If an archer is drawing aggro against mobs he can't kill before they reach him, that's just bad playing.
In bh archers wont wait till the tank get agro, only at the boss. Some archer get agro earlier than tank in TT too, and they force the tank to pick back the mobs with single attack or with agroskill. You never kicked any archer from squad becouse he didn't undrestand to don't steal agro, or don't attack before the tank get agro?0 -
AirunElMarem - Heavens Tear wrote: »Okay I left out crits... But you think -interval stuffs are awsome. You will hit faster with 0,05/sec. This is not too much, so till you dont have 2-3 stuffs what gives you -int you wont feel it. And those stuffs are really exensive...
DQ bracers are relatively cheap, especially since their resale value is equal to cost acquiring. So you get to use an item and get the money back when you are done with them.AirunElMarem - Heavens Tear wrote: »I Didn't simulate a 30 sec fight, I didn't count with defense, so you can say what mob are they hitting? I think you just want to find any misstake in my comment. Archer wins in all fields, all circumstances If the BM and archer are near each other in lvl,skills,equipments.
It doesn't mean what way do you see this topic, the archer have bit more dmg from stats,
and from other things.
Their damage per hit is the only thing higher, their over-all damage output is less due to less attacks. Refine rate of fists is 6X% of bow, and since they attack at least over two times as fast as a bow with no -int means each refine level on weapon benefits the fister more. The shards definitely benefit fist more, and toss in over double the amount of spark coverage and archer damage is nowhere close to fist. And that is even counting the extra multiple pure dex archers receive over 3 str fist BMs. All that means fist damage outpaces much more than even your example shows.
If the archer is counted with -int, then the BM gets it as well for similar gear comparison. Only thing BM wouldn't get is the rank chest. But -interval affects fist damage to a larger degree than it will for bow using archers for every single added piece. And in one second, the archers one hit will be much less than a BMs 3. Looking at size of hit is one thing if they take equal time to land, but since the BM gets 3 in the time for an archer to get 1 at 89, then DPS will matter more than DPH, unless that DPH is enough to one shot through a charm.AirunElMarem - Heavens Tear wrote: »An archer can do more damage with a single hit, than a fistBM with crit. Archers also have -int stuffs.AirunElMarem - Heavens Tear wrote: »In bh archers wont wait till the tank get agro, only at the boss. Some archer get agro earlier than tank in TT too, and they force the tank to pick back the mobs with single attack or with agroskill. You never kicked any archer from squad becouse he didn't undrestand to don't steal agro, or don't attack before the tank get agro?
If the archer is terrible, no real interest in partying with them. But I was already 8X when BH began, so I seem to have lucked out in being in parties not weighted down with whoracles or BHers. Usually a good archer knows to cancel attack after initial sharpy to get the debuff in early, but not take aggro. Crappy players do exist, but haven't seen that happening much. And only time archers take aggro, is if I have let the barb tank. If it drops twice, I take aggro and tank the rest of the fight so it doesn't drop again. Makes things simpler, and wizzies and archers can go all out. Not like they have a chance of getting aggro after that, so they're safe.Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura
Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx
:NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.0 -
AirunElMarem - Heavens Tear wrote: »Okay I left out crits... But you think -interval stuffs are awsome. You will hit faster with 0,05/sec. This is not too much, so till you dont have 2-3 stuffs what gives you -int you wont feel it. And those stuffs are really exensive...
I absolutely notice every extra piece of -int when I'm playing... I see it with my chi gain, I see it with mob health as I watch it drop, and I can see it when the damage log scrolls above a mob's head and I can see how much faster my character twitches after he's killed a mob.
I noticed it going from 0 interval to -.1, to -.15, -.25, -.30, -.35... and I'm certainly looking forward to the tome when I can manage to get it.
Going from just -.3 to -.35 my chi gain went from roughly 2.5 sparks to over 3.25 sparks during a hell spark. That's quite a noticeable difference.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »DQ bracers are relatively cheap, especially since their resale value is equal to cost acquiring. So you get to use an item and get the money back when you are done with them.
Okay so you can have one item. But other -interval stuffs are expensive, and one won't make clapping machine from you fistBM.Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »Their damage per hit is the only thing higher, their over-all damage output is less due to less attacks. Refine rate of fists is 6X% of bow, and since they attack at least over two times as fast as a bow with no -int means each refine level on weapon benefits the fister more. The shards definitely benefit fist more, and toss in over double the amount of spark coverage and archer damage is nowhere close to fist. And that is even counting the extra multiple pure dex archers receive over 3 str fist BMs. All that means fist damage outpaces much more than even your example shows.
Not only the damage per hit is higher. BM get more damage from Str, Archer get more damage from Dex. This give him a lot of extra damage. And 6x refine rate is just a big word, but worth nothing. If you multiply 2 with 6 thats less if you multiply 50 with 4. And a lot of archer use crossbow what have higher spike damage.
All in all, the BM has only the attackspeed bonus, and nothing else to count with the archer. Archer have more crit, higher crit dmg, more extra damage from stats, and the attackspeed is not enough to deal with these, ohh and fistBM will miss more. I think the Archers do more dmg with one hit than the BM with 3 hit, but I don't know where did you get this 3attack/sec, I don't like to mention spark, and other stuffs what makes you faster, becouse those only for few seconds, and then you are not able to use them for 1 min or 2.
Okay I heard a lot of times, that you can have 5 attack/sec for seconds, I think this is really cheap, you can be a Superman for 10 seconds, after that 10 sec everybody will hit out you from your pants.Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »I noticed it going from 0 interval to -.1, to -.15, -.25, -.30, -.35... and I'm certainly looking forward to the tome when I can manage to get it.
I said the same from 0 to -.1 is 2 piece of -int stuff and I said 2-3...
Its like -channeling, you wont really feel it untill you have like -15%. Iam sageBM, and when I use my fists with relentless courage, and with clerics red circle thats nothing. So you feel it becouse only your demon spark, but as I mentioned I don't want to be a hero for 10 sec.0 -
AirunElMarem - Heavens Tear wrote: »I said the same from 0 to -.1 is 2 piece of -int stuff and I said 2-3...
Its like -channeling, you wont really feel it untill you have like -15%. Iam sageBM, and when I use my fists with relentless courage, and with clerics red circle thats nothing. So you feel it becouse only your demon spark, but as I mentioned I don't want to be a hero for 10 sec.
You're right, hell spark is canceled by red bubble. Sage spark is cancelled by blue bubble. I don't know about you but clerics use BB far more often than they do red bubble.
With fists I'd take aggro being either sage or demon, with demon I just end up killing faster. Works for me.
And with fists, you do notice every -.5 interval, sparked or not. You can see the difference in all the ways I mentioned.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Bottom line here is; Yes, fist bm's out damage archers even with their higher crit.Retired
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Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »With fists I'd take aggro being either sage or demon, with demon I just end up killing faster. Works for me.
And with fists, you do notice every -.5 interval, sparked or not. You can see the difference in all the ways I mentioned.
Relentless courage gives me +0.41 attack/sec for 8 sec, and hmm okay good but for only 8 sec... Maybe with 90-100 fist it will be better.AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear wrote: »Bottom line here is; Yes, fist bm's out damage archers even with their higher crit.
Okay, after 90 (maybe earlier if you are rich), but If Hammered_Guy choose only fist with LA, he won't reach lvl 90 I think. And the topic is still this, I just tried to give some example why archer do more dmg on early lvls, why light armor is bad for BM.Hammered_Guy - Sanctuary wrote: »I wanna make a Fist/Claw BM just for PK. I dont care bout PvE. I wanna use Fists/claws only, with tons of dexterity -> much Evasion, high crit rate.I think Light Armor would be good, cause i wouldnt need that much strength so i can put the points on dexterity and there are melee PKers and magic PKers, so why not balanced armory? Its just strange, cause i never saw a Light Armor BM. So, what do u think? Remember, Pure PK.. thanks b:thanks
If you guys read my other comments for this topic you will see what I try to say: don't use fists on early lvls (becouse I think axe is much better for lvling, and you can change later to fists), and don't use LA.0 -
AirunElMarem - Heavens Tear wrote: »
Okay, after 90 (maybe earlier if you are rich), And the topic is still this, I just tried to give some example why archer do more dmg on early lvls,
.
I disagree. The math has been worked out.Retired
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AirunElMarem - Heavens Tear wrote: »Not only the damage per hit is higher. BM get more damage from Str, Archer get more damage from Dex. This give him a lot of extra damage. And 6x refine rate is just a big word, but worth nothing. If you multiply 2 with 6 thats less if you multiply 50 with 4. And a lot of archer use crossbow what have higher spike damage.
All in all, the BM has only the attackspeed bonus, and nothing else to count with the archer. Archer have more crit, higher crit dmg, more extra damage from stats, and the attackspeed is not enough to deal with these, ohh and fistBM will miss more. I think the Archers do more dmg with one hit than the BM with 3 hit, but I don't know where did you get this 3attack/sec, I don't like to mention spark, and other stuffs what makes you faster, becouse those only for few seconds, and then you are not able to use them for 1 min or 2.
Okay I heard a lot of times, that you can have 5 attack/sec for seconds, I think this is really cheap, you can be a Superman for 10 seconds, after that 10 sec everybody will hit out you from your pants.
I said the same from 0 to -.1 is 2 piece of -int stuff and I said 2-3...
Its like -channeling, you wont really feel it untill you have like -15%. Iam sageBM, and when I use my fists with relentless courage, and with clerics red circle thats nothing. So you feel it becouse only your demon spark, but as I mentioned I don't want to be a hero for 10 sec.
The DQ bracers are -.1 int, not -.05, so the difference right off the bat at lvl 60 is very noticeable. The 6X% rate is how much less fists get per refine level compared to bow, but having at least two times the attack rate that would equal out to at least a 20% more per refine lvl. No idea where the X4 of archer would come from, as that has absolutely nothing to do with the comparison. If archer had 4 attacks counted, BM would have at least 8. It would be the same ratio, you have to apply the same advantages for both comparisons. If BM gets -int, so does archer. If archer gets speed buff, so does BM. Only change is if it is class specific.
You have missed many posts in the past explaining this, and not knowing 1 piece of gear can easily give -.1, or trying to stack two speed buffs both point towards a general lack of knowledge of the merchanics of the game. 3 Attacks per second is unsparked btw, and we can even hit 5 APS without using any kind of spark as well at end game.
If nothing else, try reading the archer forums. Long ago archers used to refute it, but the leading minds there actually did the math and know that archer damage cannot compare to a fist BM at end game. By 89, they fall very far behind, and are behind even before that should people outfit properly. You keep mentioning str/dex damage difference, so let me ask you this to see if it's worth bothering with this thread at all. Post a comparison using the damage formula to show how much difference it is, and I'll treat your future posts as being from a knowledgeable stand point. If you keep bringing it up and don't show the difference, or at least post a ratio to show you did look into it and aren't just pulling it out of sunshine state, then I will treat future posts to reflect that.Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura
Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx
:NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.0 -
Okay I didn't know that the bracers give -.1 int.
Str:Increases your physical melee damage.
Dex:Increases your ranged physical attack.
If you don't want to bother with this, then I just simply give up.
In the multiply part I just wrote down numbers to show sometimes if you multiply higher base dmg with less attackspeed, it can be more, then low base dmg*high attackspeed.0 -
AirunElMarem - Heavens Tear wrote: »Okay I didn't know that the bracers give -.1 int.
Str:Increases your physical melee damage.
Dex:Increases your ranged physical attack.
If you don't want to bother with this, then I just simply give up.
In the multiply part I just wrote down numbers to show sometimes if you multiply higher base dmg with less attackspeed, it can be more, then low base dmg*high attackspeed.
Everyone already knows about str and dex who is posting here affecting particular weapon types, daggers being the one exception being melee that is dex based.
However you have stated the difference between archer dex and bm str having a notable effect on the damage difference between the two as one of the things you base your assertion on. If you don't know the ratio number, or how to get there, then it is not an informed opinion. And there is no point debating a point with someone who has no facts backing them for the higher theory. And knowing ratio is just the start: then you have to know how -interval has an increasing effect, that causes a decreasing effect of speed buff that has breakpoints, and other stuff to actually be a worthwhile thread that has already been gone over in the BM and archer forums.
It's not that this is being dismissed, but it has been gone over and proved with numbers already using viable builds and equipment, and there is no point redoing it if one side just tosses things at random as fact when it isn't. So while it can help newcomers going over it again with a reasonable debate, one side not knowing the mechanics renders the whole thing a waste of time.Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura
Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx
:NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.0 -
AirunElMarem - Heavens Tear wrote: »I thought we speak about only fistBM, okay axe/fist is good in bh.
Okay let's see:
We have an archer, and a bm, both of them are lvl43. They use lvl 43fist,42bow. They do dmg to a target for 30sec( they meet the statrequirement for weapons):
Fists: Physical attack:179-197 Attack rate: 1.43, so 30*1,43=42,9 (number of attacks). I just pick the maximum dmg, so 197*42,9=8451,3 dmg! With minimum dmg: 179*42,9=7679,1 dmg!
Bow: Physical attack:257-477 Attack rate: 0,67, so 30*0,67=20,1 (number of attacks). 477*20,1=9587.7 dmg! With minimum dmg: 257*20,1=5165,7 dmg!
.
Just a note, not sure if your characters are allowed to use rings, shards. (At least mine does b:chuckle)
lets say that the rings and the shards add "X" amount of damage per attack.
So, in 30 secs, this means:
fists= 1.43*X*30
archer=0.67*X*30
The fist is getting advantage on this. I dont use attack charms but I guess some people do, this benefits fisters even more.0 -
Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »Everyone already knows about str and dex who is posting here affecting particular weapon types, daggers being the one exception being melee that is dex based.
However you have stated the difference between archer dex and bm str having a notable effect on the damage difference between the two as one of the things you base your assertion on. If you don't know the ratio number, or how to get there, then it is not an informed opinion. And there is no point debating a point with someone who has no facts backing them for the higher theory. And knowing ratio is just the start: then you have to know how -interval has an increasing effect, that causes a decreasing effect of speed buff that has breakpoints, and other stuff to actually be a worthwhile thread that has already been gone over in the BM and archer forums.
It's not that this is being dismissed, but it has been gone over and proved with numbers already using viable builds and equipment, and there is no point redoing it if one side just tosses things at random as fact when it isn't. So while it can help newcomers going over it again with a reasonable debate, one side not knowing the mechanics renders the whole thing a waste of time.
Okay leave Archer, and focus only to BMs (I still have cards like arrow what have a bonus attack power, and BMs cant use arrow or bolt, but okay leave this)
So from the start if you use fists you think quests will be easy? Lvling will be fast? I think no. Becouse it eats more pots, you will have higher repair cost. I saw not one fistBM who left this game before they reach lvl50. I asked them why? Becouse lvling is really slow. They don't have enough money to do CS,BH all day. They plan to buy Annihilator of Souls for lvl60 but it'seems they will never have a chance to have it, only if they get a mold from 51. They die easily, and guess what? They didn't have -0.5int bracers on 44, if someone made lvl60 he wanted to buy AOS but he never thought to buy -.1int bracers, coz it costs 3,5m( today I saw one for 2m with average gems). FistBMs can't save money, if they have money they charge up money, or they steal from other ppl (I lost 30m in TT, becouse of dropstealers thats why I have lvl 70 armors).
I also meet with a fistBM in Tusk town. He was around lvl60 had a 3*chest and other armors from NPC, with no gems. I tried to sell my AOS to him for 100k ( it costs 300k min in AH ). I got the answer: It would be good, but sorry I don't have 100k to buy that.
All class shine when you have enough money, but with fistBM you just spend money, not earn. And with LA you will use more pots, and you will have much higher repair cost.
Now I answered for the original thread too.0 -
AirunElMarem - Heavens Tear wrote: »Okay leave Archer, and focus only to BMs (I still have cards like arrow what have a bonus attack power, and BMs cant use arrow or bolt, but okay leave this)
So from the start if you use fists you think quests will be easy? Lvling will be fast? I think no. Becouse it eats more pots, you will have higher repair cost. I saw not one fistBM who left this game before they reach lvl50. I asked them why? Becouse lvling is really slow. They don't have enough money to do CS,BH all day. They plan to buy Annihilator of Souls for lvl60 but it'seems they will never have a chance to have it, only if they get a mold from 51. They die easily, and guess what? They didn't have -0.5int bracers on 44, if someone made lvl60 he wanted to buy AOS but he never thought to buy -.1int bracers, coz it costs 3,5m( today I saw one for 2m with average gems). FistBMs can't save money, if they have money they charge up money, or they steal from other ppl (I lost 30m in TT, becouse of dropstealers thats why I have lvl 70 armors).
I also meet with a fistBM in Tusk town. He was around lvl60 had a 3*chest and other armors from NPC, with no gems. I tried to sell my AOS to him for 100k ( it costs 300k min in AH ). I got the answer: It would be good, but sorry I don't have 100k to buy that.
All class shine when you have enough money, but with fistBM you just spend money, not earn. And with LA you will use more pots, and you will have much higher repair cost.
Now I answered for the original thread too.
How can you do a fists review wihout using fists? its obvious by reading your post b:chuckle0 -
Hey funny guy:)
Imagine I use 5 weapon:)
If you think something is not true what I wrote down, just say which part? And why? Where do you get money ohh fistBMmaster?0 -
AirunElMarem - Heavens Tear wrote: »Hey funny guy:)
Imagine I use 5 weapon:)
If you think something is not true what I wrote down, just say which part? And why? Where do you get money ohh fistBMmaster?
Actually, each post just shows you know less and less of the topic. Fist BMs have the cheapest grinding/questing of any weapon type. They do not need to pot/genie skill/use charm when they are grinding, as the large amount of chi they gain lets them use Sutra for all their healing needs. And it is actually easier to do quests than doing AoE on some of the ones where mobs are spread too far out. Fists kill faster, which I saw an example of when I was grinding Foxwing Supremes. Me with AoS kill them before they could cast, axe BM with TT weapon right next to me tended to have to spam skills and still got hit with magic one or two times everytime.
I used fists from 9-19, then again from 48+. I had a bracer with -.05 interval until reach 60, that helped out in giving an extra attack every 9 seconds basically. Killing was easy and quick, usually had to sell off 100 pots at a time since I never needed them. Used life powders before sutra, so again health/mana pots were useless.
Also, the standard fist BM build uses HA, so bringing up LA fist BMs is beyond pointless. And using one person as an example for all is....Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura
Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx
:NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.0 -
Because BM's don't need to wear light armor. It's much more effective to stack up on heavy armor with magic accessories and use magic def marrow, because it gives a much more balanced defense.Hammered_Guy - Sanctuary wrote: »Hi guys!
I wanna make a Fist/Claw BM just for PK. I dont care bout PvE. I wanna use Fists/claws only, with tons of dexterity -> much Evasion, high crit rate. What do u think bout the armor (chest, legs, etc)? I think Light Armor would be good, cause i wouldnt need that much strength so i can put the points on dexterity and there are melee PKers and magic PKers, so why not balanced armory? Its just strange, cause i never saw a Light Armor BM. So, what do u think? Remember, Pure PK.. thanks b:thanks
Also, 90+ BM's that are devoted to a single weapon are ****. I've seen several instances where an Axe/Fist BM totally ****.
HF + Fist to death anyone?●Wizard (Male) - Fasditious and pretentious, carries the arrogance of intellectual superiority. Feels the need to remind everyone of his world-ending power, but grows a little manic and unhinged when he finally is allowed to unleash it. "Ahh-hahahahaha!! NOW YOU ALL BURN!!!!"
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
I know less and less? I didn't charged up money, and I just bought necessary things only. I didn't use fists for a long time on early lvls, but all quest was a pain with fist! You don't say where did you get money for your bracers... now maybe you can buy it, thanks to the new quests, but I still don't believe that you can buy lvl 60 bracers on lvl 60. Okay you could sell that for the same price, but where you get money to buy it? With my veno I was able to save 4m from lvl1 to 60(without new quests), but I didn't use any pot, I never had more repair cost than 4k, I didn't pay for weapons, armors. I just use those what I got from quests. You say that you are an old player, so bracers was 3,5-4m. I don't belive that u could buy it!!!
You just drop words, but the stuffs what you are talking about are almost impossible to have.
I just saw a fistBM around lvl94. He had only the 90gold bracers and nothing more which can give -int. And his guild own some territori, so you can imagine he is not poor...
Another had the 90gold bracers and 90gold legs (maybe the set bonus gives him another -.5int).
I still have fists, and I usually use it, becouse I use all 4 weapon + bow sometimes. On lvl 60 I used AOS, and the only thing why AOS is good it's enlighten. So you don't need a lot of mana pots, but thats all. But sutra have 30 sec cooldown...
Airfight is really hard with BM, becouse you can end with 3 mobs on you easily.
I feel the same here, like in the TT topic where ppl keeping say buy this, collect here this stuff and voila you have everything what you want. But in the game TT still bad for BMs.
Thats why I won't write more for this topic. Have fun and good luck make a fistBM and you will see that you won't have money, and with those stuffs other BMs will do more dmg for example on lvl 70 with Goulish sword, and other DDs will do more dmg...0 -
Even with sutra's 30 sec cooldown I can grind nonstop. I don't even have to use sutra every 30 secs... because you can double spark for HP as well. phys marrow means you take less damage and you can cancel the first magic attack with shadowless. The mob will die before it starts casting again. I kept sutra leveled and only had to use it once a min or so... ofcourse there's exceptions to everything, like the kiting magic mobs around king's feast and tusk, but you can use magic marrow there...
It's certainly a lot better than questing with axes. Roar can be used with fists... so can Aeolian. You build chi faster, you do more damage on single targets and you still have access to drake sweep/fan of flames. At bosses you get more than 2 sparks every 30 secs so after 59 you can drop HF on cooldown. Other than the occasional group of melee mobs where you want to use Fissure/Cleave, Axes are worthless in BH/HH/PvE at lower levels. Grinding? you make more money with fists and honestly these days AOE grinding is pointless until you're like lv70. At which point you'll have plenty of spirit and money to spare for axes.
PvP? Yeah axes has an extra use, Drake Bash, and calamities are OP at lv70. Also help if you want to kill someone with genie skills because of added chance to zerk, and so on. But even then, fists are your best bet for heavy armor and chi building.Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.0 -
AirunElMarem - Heavens Tear wrote: »I know less and less? I didn't charged up money, and I just bought necessary things only. I didn't use fists for a long time on early lvls, but all quest was a pain with fist! You don't say where did you get money for your bracers... now maybe you can buy it, thanks to the new quests, but I still don't believe that you can buy lvl 60 bracers on lvl 60. Okay you could sell that for the same price, but where you get money to buy it? With my veno I was able to save 4m from lvl1 to 60(without new quests), but I didn't use any pot, I never had more repair cost than 4k, I didn't pay for weapons, armors. I just use those what I got from quests. You say that you are an old player, so bracers was 3,5-4m. I don't belive that u could buy it!!!
You just drop words, but the stuffs what you are talking about are almost impossible to have.
I just saw a fistBM around lvl94. He had only the 90gold bracers and nothing more which can give -int. And his guild own some territori, so you can imagine he is not poor...
Another had the 90gold bracers and 90gold legs (maybe the set bonus gives him another -.5int).
I still have fists, and I usually use it, becouse I use all 4 weapon + bow sometimes. On lvl 60 I used AOS, and the only thing why AOS is good it's enlighten. So you don't need a lot of mana pots, but thats all. But sutra have 30 sec cooldown...
Airfight is really hard with BM, becouse you can end with 3 mobs on you easily.
I feel the same here, like in the TT topic where ppl keeping say buy this, collect here this stuff and voila you have everything what you want. But in the game TT still bad for BMs.
Thats why I won't write more for this topic. Have fun and good luck make a fistBM and you will see that you won't have money, and with those stuffs other BMs will do more dmg for example on lvl 70 with Goulish sword, and other DDs will do more dmg...
Old main was a cleric that discovered the air gather aoe poison grinding, making me roughly 1 million coins a day with almost no cost for repair. As such, I had a good amount when I swapped over to fist BM in Nov 08. Crafted set of fists/claws for my BM, and used the cleric's money to get the DQ orders for the bracers.
Currently my lvl 100 BM (avatar has been broken over half a year) is soloing TTs, mostly single mode. But I can have a cleric on laptop and do squad mode 3-1 with no problem already. Makes plenty of cash and don't even charm tick on single mode.
You don't know how damage formulas work, you don't know how -int stacks, you don't know the -int gear, you don't even know set bonuses, you don't know what competent fist grinding is like, you don't know how to manage aggro properly (luring), you don't know the ratio between different stat basises, you don't know how to calculate fist damage vs. archer bow damage.
In short, you know absolutely nothing about the topic, and every post you make introduces a new ignorance you possess. The only reason to post in this thread, is to ensure you don't infect any new BMs coming to learn something with your ignorance.Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura
Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx
:NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.0 -
AirunElMarem - Heavens Tear wrote: »Hey funny guy:)
Imagine I use 5 weapon:)
If you think something is not true what I wrote down, just say which part? And why? Where do you get money ohh fistBMmaster?
ok mr 5 weapons. b:chuckle
There is no way you can quest more efficient with axes than with fists.
fists is the cheapest/most efficient weapon in you vs 1 mob. If you want to kill several mobs at oncee, then the right weapon is the axes.
I started with sword and around level 30, I heard the advice about using shadowless kick to cancell mag attacks. In other words, I was using my sword but when the mob was casting, I would switch to fists to use shawdowless kick and then back to sword.
In all this switching, I started noticing that my fists where doing a higher dps than the sword and creating more chi per second (so, in my mind the rumours on the forum about fists dps were true). Then, I kept on fists only exept when I wanted to use my sword or axes for the skills only.
Fists also have a higher chance to cancell mag attacks by normal attack only. The way it works is that if you hit the mob at the right time (with any weapon), it will cancell the attack but you cant plan to do this, its just a matter of chance. However, fists increment this chance as fists makes more hits per second than axes, sword and pole.
By creating more Chi per second, fists allow you to use more chi skills from the other weapons. I think I can cast dragon more often than a pure axes character as I create more chi than him, its just a matter or swithing the weapon.
By higher dps in you vs 1 mob and blocking mag attacks, you lose less HP than with axes. Keep in mind that you should not dump your axes in you vs mob, the weapon is very important to cancell mag attacks too with Drake Bash.
And as I mention before, the rings and shards work way better with fists than with any other weapon.0 -
HFs cooldown = 30 sec, HF costs 2 sparks.
Time it takes for each weapon type to build 2 sparks.
5 chi per hit = 40 hits for 2 sparks
Type: Interval between hits * 40 hits = time to build 2 sparks.
Axes/hammers 1.2 * 40 = 48 sec (wasting HF time)
Dual sword/poleaxe 1.1 * 40 = 44 sec (wasting HF time)
Pole 1.0 * 40 = 40 sec (wasting HF time)
Single Sword .9 * 40 = 36 sec (wasting HF time)
Fist/Claw .7 * 40 = 28 sec DINGDINGDING we have a winner! (not wasting HF)
Fist/Claw+ DQ bracers .6 * 40 = 24 sec
and finally for ****s and giggles
Fist/Claw with full -int .25 * 40 = 10 sec (You can cast Myraid, and HF, and glacial on CD) (and 15 sec for 3 sparks = perma demon spark)
Fist/Claw with full -int demon sparked .2 * 40 = 8 sec (12 sec for 3 sparks = perma demon spark)
As you can see, while fists are goldlike wtfpwn 100% win endgame, they are merely by far the best boss or single target weapon at lower levels. b:bye[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper. - T. S. Eliot0 -
Only argument I can see viable for going axes is the 70-80 range. With hyper it took me a day to get 71-80 and I only used 500k per 60mins of 5x cause of double drops. Either way you should still have fists because they are better for everything else. Then again if you are only fists you are just as bad as a pure axe warrior. Use all your weapons as you will find each one outperforms another in certain areas, besides blade. lol blade.0
-
Lol... so many people are supporting fist now... seems like Lyndura is out. Anyway, I personally didn't object to fist last time when I was playing. Now back again. But axe really was the craze then and it seems like many things change along the way when people start realising that chi is really important and fist builds it up real fast. But either way, any one who follows only one weapon path at endgame sucks right? So I guess I shall go with the axe/fist build now... Lyndura's guide still is good... but I guess his advice to go only axe is -.-".
Then should we follow his guide on the fist skill build? Does anyone know?0 -
With the addition of a lot more interval fists (85, 95, 100) and gear (tome, cape) fists have gotten a lot better. Genies helped too. Back then fists weren't as good as they are now. They were still effective, but nobody really accepted them, as stunlocking was much harder without genie skills to support you. And back then, with lower refines etc, XS/GX were a lot more effect in pk.
Fist skill build? Start by maxing the basic skills as always, like the pdef buff, roar, sprint, fist mastery, aeolian, etc. Get lv1 in every skill that's usable with fists/axes, and then decide what you rather do. I personally raised Heaven's Flame and Drake Bash first and only got the AOEs to 5 later on during 7x. Now during 8x I've started raising Cyclone Heel as well.
There's no real skill build for fist BMs... just start by maxing these skills:
Aura of Golden Bell
Aeolian Blade
Roar of the Pride
Drake's Ray
Cloud Sprint
Sutra
Fist Mastery
Physical Marrow
Magical Marrow (leave this at 5-6 or so till later)
Get these skills to 1:
Fan of Flames
Drake Sweep
Shadowless Kick
All axe skills
Then afterwards start working on maxing other skills, depending on preference. I got farstrike to 1 too for fun, but not leveling it yet.Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.0 -
We seem to be forgetting the main focus of the topic, claws/fists for PK purpouses, on my personal opinion, they're only good for 1v1 PvP fighting physical classes, which are barbs, assas and other BMs
When fighting squishy classes like wizzys or clerics, your best friend is spike damage, which is something fists lack, they have a very high attack rate and the best dps of all weapons on regular attack, however their damage is very constant, they don't have a significant variation between hits, so you're allowing the cleric to IH to heal more than you're damaging, and the wizzy to get time for the charm to cooldown
Axes on the other hand, are terribly slow weapons, but they have a huge spike damage, and cala axes or TT90 have the REALLY useful sacrificial strike, which doubles your damage output on a single attack at the low cost of 5% hp, now if that stacks with a critical strike you're getting 4x a regular attack, and if your target is under HF you're getting 8x a regular attack, considering physical attacks tend to devastate squishy classes you're very likely to 1-shot them, or force their charm into a HUGE spike and giving you time to wear them down while it's on cooldown
My PvP experience in this game is quite limited, since i had enough PvP in my past MMO (that's why i joined a PvE server), however, when i have dueled arcane classes i find axes much more effective than fists, because axes can deplete their hp in a single hit, powerful healing means nothing if your whole life bar is depleted at once, fists are bestial damage per second, but have the lowest spike damage
Fists are awesome weapons against mobs, and without them a BM cannot be a good tank, however for PvP i would say axes are a better bet against squishy classes at least, fists are better against physical classes, but going solo against a barb is a bad idea, there's no way you will get thru their charm fast enough if they're at least decent and at your level0 -
Yes, your PvP experience is too limited. Endgame when everyone and their mother is running around with at least 10k pdef and 8-12k HP buffed, your spike damage isn't going to look like much of a spike. Even if you're relatively strong you may hit someone for 6k, but it's still not going to be enough especially if they have genie skills to save them.We seem to be forgetting the main focus of the topic, claws/fists for PK purpouses, on my personal opinion, they're only good for 1v1 PvP fighting physical classes, which are barbs, assas and other BMs
When fighting squishy classes like wizzys or clerics, your best friend is spike damage, which is something fists lack, they have a very high attack rate and the best dps of all weapons on regular attack, however their damage is very constant, they don't have a significant variation between hits, so you're allowing the cleric to IH to heal more than you're damaging, and the wizzy to get time for the charm to cooldown
Axes on the other hand, are terribly slow weapons, but they have a huge spike damage, and cala axes or TT90 have the REALLY useful sacrificial strike, which doubles your damage output on a single attack at the low cost of 5% hp, now if that stacks with a critical strike you're getting 4x a regular attack, and if your target is under HF you're getting 8x a regular attack, considering physical attacks tend to devastate squishy classes you're very likely to 1-shot them, or force their charm into a HUGE spike and giving you time to wear them down while it's on cooldown
My PvP experience in this game is quite limited, since i had enough PvP in my past MMO (that's why i joined a PvE server), however, when i have dueled arcane classes i find axes much more effective than fists, because axes can deplete their hp in a single hit, powerful healing means nothing if your whole life bar is depleted at once, fists are bestial damage per second, but have the lowest spike damage
Fists are awesome weapons against mobs, and without them a BM cannot be a good tank, however for PvP i would say axes are a better bet against squishy classes at least, fists are better against physical classes, but going solo against a barb is a bad idea, there's no way you will get thru their charm fast enough if they're at least decent and at your level
And yes at lower levels Axes are good for duels, because any random idiot can hit roar/drake bash/aeolian blade and win. Other classes dont have the same kind of target control skills. Why do you think all these axe BMs are full of themselves? They all think they're good at pvp because BMs kill arcane/LA easy in duels.Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.0 -
If you want some entertainment, watch a vit axe pk video. One guy was all full of himself, then watching the video I felt like it was a Martha Stewart special on home gardening. Fails to kill, fails to kill, oh look; heavens flame followed by Bramble Rage. Over, and over, and over. And thus, they have a new name: The Gardener Build. Can't kill ****, without an amped BR.Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura
Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx
:NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.0 -
That's not true! They can use amped True Emptiness too! b:chuckle0
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