LA vs HA

Eliathel - Lost City

Ok...

Right now Im arcane build, pure mag ftw.

Im heading to lvl 79-80, and Im very confused about what to do on PvP issues.
I dont own a nix, so probably flying through the sky and killing robe wont be that great, so mostly Ill be amp/purging in land.
But here comes my question... land=bms=equals stun=death.

So what the best build for that? A light one or heavy one?

I see light as the most balanced since you get a lot of phy def and even more when you got into fox form, and its also the most linear build since you dont have to worry about what stat do you need, but Ive also seen the light armor and stuffs like that lack in Hp department, while heavy stuffs has a lot of HP bonuses.

So do yo have any experience that can tell me about? Im a bit lazy on getting molders and such, but can work towards it if neccessary.

I really need pros a cons. Very clear ones.

Thx so much!

I dont need speculation, I need facts. Ie= im LA and die a lot more easily to mages, or Im HA and die even more easily to mages.
I need facts to find the right build, not to own everyone, but to survive more. Rite now as pure archers are the ones making more damage, but considering I dont own a nix, dont have pounce its clearly a difference. Pounce+Lucky scarab makes about 4 seconds of stun, and thats a lot. Should I concentrate on getting phy things and just being pure and switchin about 50 points to Vit (that makes 50*12=600 more hp) or going light but not having any hp at all...

XKIAx - Heavens Tear

Currently i'm also pure arcane (5 vit and 387 magic) b:sin
I'm restatting when i get to 90 for Heavy Armor.

Pros for Heavy armor:
Nice HP bonuses from helmet and refinement.
Insane phys def, sage fox form with heavy armor would probably give you 20k phys def (if not more) and about 15-16k phys def for demon foxes (not 100% sure on values).
You can take quite a few hits from phys mobs. And if you have enough HP, you can take a few hits from mag mobs too.

Cons for Heavy armor:
Heavily dependent on items that gives + stats to mag/dex/str if you want TT80 armor and TT80 magic weapon at level 80 (for example).
Mag defense sucks (as you already said), but i think the increased amount of HP you get makes up for it. And, if you have the money/time, you can get the TT70/80 arcane set too, so you can switch whenever. And yes, if you're Heavy armor, you can switch to arcane too without restating.
Heavy venos have less mag attack. Less mag attack = less healing/attacking power, but i was told its not that much of an impact.

Pros of LA:
All around good phys and mag def. Its not high, nor low, its just average IMO.
You're able to take a hit or 2 while luring/grinding.

Cons of LA:
You need 1 str, 1 dex and 3 mag per level to equip the highest gear (armor and weapon) of your level. Which leaves little or no room for vit. AKA, low HP.
LA venos cant use HP helmets of their level.
The amount of HP you get from refining is lower than that of Heavy armor.

Thats about all i can think of. I'm not heavy armor yet, so some of the above mentioned things might be incorrect :P

EDIT: You might want to check the "Rei's kinda-ok guide for Heavy/Robe Fox" topic on the top of the page for more info on heavy venos. Lots of info there :P
Also, people posted their stats (buffed and unbuffed) of the difference between arcane and heavy. Not light armor though i'm afraid. b:sad

Eliathel - Lost City

Thx! Yes, not having LA armor stats kinda is not good to compare stats. My major problem is that heavy equips Ive seen are REALLY good equip, not the normal average. Ive try using char simulator and in order to use HH70 armor and HH80 weapon you need a lot of equip that adds +stats.
Im aiming to equip the best HH weapon, thus things can be a little hard. Im not sure if equipping a lower heavy armor is really that good.
I was also considering just wearin some heavy equip, not all, in order to get a more decent mag def.
Ill probably re stat at 80 but my major problem is that I dont have any equip that adds stat, and have no idea of where to get them (maybe crafting?).
HP in every case equals more survaivility, so probably Ill be HA soon xD

XKIAx - Heavens Tear

Eliathel - Lost City wrote: »

Im aiming to equip the best HH weapon, thus things can be a little hard. Im not sure if equipping a lower heavy armor is really that good.

Getting the highest weapon and lower armor is better than getting higher armor and a lower weapon, since veno's aren't really suppose to take that many hits.

Eliathel - Lost City wrote: »

Ill probably re stat at 80 but my major problem is that I dont have any equip that adds stat, and have no idea of where to get them (maybe crafting?).

You can craft them yes, but looking in the AH is also a good option.

littlemoya

Cost a lot to go heavy armor, cause most people also make another arcane armor set as well.

Heavy is good for people who like to fight in fox form, as you can make use of the higher strength.

Using LA you would still mainly fight as a caster, just with additional phy defense so you are not so squishy. It does allow you have more freedom in equipment, as you don't have to keep looking for things with a lot of +stats.

Byno - Sanctuary

XKIAx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You need 1 str, 1 dex and 3 mag per level to equip the highest gear (armor and weapon) of your level. Which leaves little or no room for vit. AKA, low HP.
LA venos cant use HP helmets of their level.
The amount of HP you get from refining is lower than that of Heavy armor.

You can just as easily optimize stats for lots of vit in LA as you can optimize stats to wear HA/current level wep.

Also, so far as I knew, refining armor gives hp based on the level of the armor, not on the type.

xperfectxzer0x

HA is mainly for those who use fox form a lot, which I don't. I prefer noob cannoning with my venom scrab or w/e it's called. LA is usually for those who want a little defense from being blind sided or sniped by a ranged unit. However I found that just shoving a few granite into my Robes to raised my physical defense worked pretty well. Of course I've haven't been playing for long so don't exactly trust what I say

XKIAx - Heavens Tear

Byno - Sanctuary wrote: »

Also, so far as I knew, refining armor gives hp based on the level of the armor, not on the type.

Hmm, you're right. I was told refining heavy armor gives more HP, but i checked the database and it doesn't.

Obsessed - Heavens Tear

XKIAx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Hmm, you're right. I was told refining heavy armor gives more HP, but i checked the database and it doesn't.

Database is severly wrong with refining values. Heavy gives the most.

Eliathel - Lost City

But HA should always have more HP, considering bonus from equipment and bonus from HP citrines.
LA equip dont have Hp bonus and you will use Citrines, but will never compare to HA hp bonus.
Seems like the "vit cleric or LA cleric", vit is always best, more hp means you will survive more...

Thx Obsessed for the tip on refining

Byno - Sanctuary

Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Database is severly wrong with refining values. Heavy gives the most.

Do you know how much exactly? I'm curious now how that all works out.

Obsessed - Heavens Tear

Edit: PWdatabase is just really wrong with their refinement values.
Edit2: PWDB seems to have correct values for LA only.

heres my compelation for TT90:
(refinements 1-5 taken from ingame armor description, 6-12 calculated)

+1 arcane: 25
+2 arcane: 50
+3 arcane: 76
+4 arcane: 107
+5 arcane: 143
+6 arcane: 188
+7 arcane: 248
+8 arcane: 325
+9 arcane: 426
+10 arcane: 551
+11 arcane: 725
+12 arcane: 937

+1 light: 30
+2 light: 60
+3 light: 91
+4 light: 129
+5 light: 171
+6 light: 226
+7 light: 298
+8 light: 390
+9 light: 511
+10 light: 669
+11 light: 870
+12 light: 1125

+1 heavy: 40
+2 heavy: 80
+3 heavy: 122
+4 heavy: 172
+5 heavy: 230
+6 heavy: 302
+7 heavy: 398
+8 heavy: 520
+9 heavy: 682
+10 heavy: 882
+11 heavy: 1160
+12 heavy: 1500

Conclusion: It's a pretty noticable difference.

MentalEdge - Heavens Tear

For everyone that says you get low hp on LA,refine your gear a bit for gods sake,and use hp gems,i have more hp as LA than most vit builds with their arcane armours,and LA is good up until 90/91,thats when its a bit easier to then switch to HA.

My pet heal has never been gimped,always been able to tank any boss i need too (TT's/FB's)my magic defence is fine v other casters,my magic attack is high,i don't die easily to melee'rs,most of the time actually i don't die period.

As for the whole you level faster as arcane over LA,thats BS too,i regularly steal agro off mobs my pet attacks with bash levelled,not going to be killing any quicker than i can already.

If you're willing to spend some of your coin most you venos hide away under your matresses,you can outperform any arcane and do well in PvP whereas arcane is going to get you flattened by any archer/barb/bm that comes your way,and switch to HA 90+(unless you have luck with getting great + attribute equips then you can go HA a lot sooner)

Eliathel - Lost City

Im not saying that Veno LA DONT get Hp, its just that HA equip get EVEN MORE hp. Its just rational due to the fact that HA equip has always better HP bonuses.
If you have more HP you will always survive more, to crit, to damage. Plus you have the advantage to swich some gear in order to get even more Mag def or all phy def.
HA its just harder to get. Damage will be always the same as LA, since both builds will use same weapon, and damage is all about weapon, nothing else.

I think in the long run, though HA is harder to get, pays a lot more then LA mostly due to the fact that they get more HP from citrines, refining and equip.

Its like I said before, Vit cleric is always the most wanted build. LA cleric? HP will make you survive, thats what matters always.


Obsessed, those HP refining numbers are awesome xD

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Eliathel - Lost City wrote: »

If you have more HP you will always survive more, to crit, to damage.

I suppose it's worth pointing out that at your level (32), for a veno doing regular grinding, having more hp is actually a disadvantage. Most grinding is low-risk so the extra hp doesn't really help you survive.

But the veno's main advantage when grinding is Soul Transformation + Metabolic Boost + Nature's Grace to reduce or eliminate downtime. You get MB at 26, ST at 29, and NG at 36. So for a while there you are relying only on MB, and even when you initially get both MB and NG, they only replenish about 25% each. You're most likely running out of mana before those cooldowns have expired. You either have to use potions, or sit and meditate.

What else can you do? ST only has a 1 min cooldown. By using it between uses of MB and NG, you're effectively converting hp regen into mp regen. But the ratio of that conversion depends on the ratio of your max mp to max hp.

e.g. If you have 1000 hp and 3000 mp, +5 hp regen is equivalent to +15 mp regen. 500 hp converts to 1500 mp when you use ST.

But if you have 1500 hp and 3000 mp, +5 hp regen is only equivalent to +10 mp regen. 500 hp converts to only 1000 mp when you use ST.

So slap on a +hp regen item, make sure you have as few hp as possible, and use ST in between the 5 min uses of MB and NG every time your hp reaches max. That's what I do with my level 30 hay farming veno, and she never needs to med and only occasionally uses potions (when she accidentally gets hit). This despite her not having NG yet.

Walterthewf - Harshlands

Anyone know what the hp value a g6 shard gives to a LA build vs a HA build?
I was never aware they gave different hp, and am curious what the difference is.

thanks

Obsessed - Heavens Tear

Walterthewf - Harshlands wrote: »

Anyone know what the hp value a g6 shard gives to a LA build vs a HA build?
I was never aware they gave different hp, and am curious what the difference is.

thanks

Shards give the same hp, only refinements give different values.

Byno - Sanctuary

Eliathel - Lost City wrote: »

Im not saying that Veno LA DONT get Hp, its just that HA equip get EVEN MORE hp. Its just rational due to the fact that HA equip has always better HP bonuses.

LA gets plenty of HP. Based on the tt90 LA vs HA gear, look at it this way:

Base stat wise, HA gives +122 and LA gives +91. With all four pieces, this gives HA a bonus 124 HP. Two HA pieces give +80, while two LA pieces give +70, which means HA gives another bonus +20. Refinement wise, going to +3 gives HA 122, and LA 91, so another +124. Gems give them the same, and they have the same VIT chances. So gearwise, that's about 339 more HP for HA.

The trick? How much HP would I be losing after I reset my stats to HA? 64 VIT down to 13 VIT loses me a grand total of 612 HP. Based entirely on the four main pieces of armor, going HA would lose me 273 HP.

HA definitely has it's pros over LA, but I don't think HP is really one of them.

Yourmom - Lost City

Byno - Sanctuary wrote: »

LA gets plenty of HP. Based on the tt90 LA vs HA gear, look at it this way:

Base stat wise, HA gives +122 and LA gives +91. With all four pieces, this gives HA a bonus 124 HP. Two HA pieces give +80, while two LA pieces give +70, which means HA gives another bonus +20. Refinement wise, going to +3 gives HA 122, and LA 91, so another +124. Gems give them the same, and they have the same VIT chances. So gearwise, that's about 339 more HP for HA.

The trick? How much HP would I be losing after I reset my stats to HA? 64 VIT down to 13 VIT loses me a grand total of 612 HP. Based entirely on the four main pieces of armor, going HA would lose me 273 HP.

HA definitely has it's pros over LA, but I don't think HP is really one of them.

I agree with this. As LA, any +stat bonuses you get on your armor mean that you can switch those out for more vit if you want. You don't get this luxury with HA, you need all the +stat you can get just to equip your gear and hope you can use a weapon your own level.

Obsessed - Heavens Tear

Yourmom - Lost City wrote: »

I agree with this. As LA, any +stat bonuses you get on your armor mean that you can switch those out for more vit if you want. You don't get this luxury with HA, you need all the +stat you can get just to equip your gear and hope you can use a weapon your own level.

I have 37 base vit, and 76 with gear(well will when I reset for my new TT90 cape)... not too shabby. HA has plenty of oppertunity to get -some- vit, specially in the higher levels. With the right gear it's not as tight knit as many think.

Byno - Sanctuary

Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I have 37 base vit, and 76 with gear(well will when I reset for my new TT90 cape)... not too shabby. HA has plenty of oppertunity to get -some- vit, specially in the higher levels. With the right gear it's not as tight knit as many think.

It's definitely possible to get plenty of vit out of HA, but the thing is as you get more +stat ornaments and such to up your vit, you'd still get a lot more vit out of those same ornaments with LA. The best way to get more vit out of HA than LA would probably be through refinements, but that can get pretty expensive.

Obsessed - Heavens Tear

True but if you are light armor, are you looking for +stat ornaments? Not very likely. I agree LA could get more out of it with the same ornaments, though they wouldnt generally goto the lengths to do so.

Byno - Sanctuary

Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »

True but if you are light armor, are you looking for +stat ornaments? Not very likely. I agree LA could get more out of it with the same ornaments, though they wouldnt generally goto the lengths to do so.

Of course. Not all LA are going to have more hp than a HA, since most of them don't bother actually putting any work into their stats, but if one is going to put the effort forth to get the +stats to wear HA, then hp isn't really much of a bonus because LA would give more with the same equips. Even then, I don't think the hp difference is big enough that it really favors either side.

Eliathel - Lost City

Hm... seems interesting... I should look into this.
Im looking for the best way to be effective at pk but also at TW. My main point is not losing the use of my magic weapon, so its most likely I end up using low lvl HA armor then resigning to my HH which is the one that gives me my magic attack.

The idea of HA comes from the fact that fox form abilities look awesome for support. Debuffing, amplifying its very interesting for me. Nix is wayyy out of my way so far (Harshland server, and I suxs at economical things) so re stating to HA could make me more effective at TW surviving more phy hits. Plus the others skills look awesome too, from debuffing mist to aoe purge in sage.

Anyone has experience on this?
Refining its a must in end game, so unless LA can in fact give more HP bonus through others things that are not stats, in the long run HA is going to have more HP, at least +5 refined gear is needed to compete against others.


P.D= Im actually lvl 78, I always post with this char bcs Im used to xD

XKIAx - Heavens Tear

I have a question to existing LA/HA users.

How much does your healing power go down? I'm currently arcane with my TT80 endless ambiguity and i heal about 40-50% of my pet's HP (pet has 4k HP). So i'm wondering how much it'll go down when going HA/LA.

Also, how much damage do you take from mag/phys attacks? Theoretically mag damage would pawn HA, but how is it really affected in PVE/PVP?
I'm also curious about LA, is it just weak jack-of-all-trades armor? Or?

Thanks in advanced :P

EDIT: The main reason why i want to switch armors, is cause i'm sick of getting 1-shotted by archers in TW, also 2500 HP is just not my thing. And yes, i know i can add vit, but my pdef still sucks xD. (899 phys def, human form, no buffs)

Solandri - Heavens Tear

XKIAx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

How much does your healing power go down? I'm currently arcane with my TT80 endless ambiguity and i heal about 40-50% of my pet's HP (pet has 4k HP). So i'm wondering how much it'll go down when going HA/LA.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=2316001#post2316001

Also, how much damage do you take from mag/phys attacks? Theoretically mag damage would pawn HA, but how is it really affected in PVE/PVP?
I'm also curious about LA, is it just weak jack-of-all-trades armor? Or?

Ratios of def for current-level armor sets are (with mdef on arcane set at 100):

Arcane: 11 pdef, 100 mdef
Light: 43 pdef, 67 mdef
Heavy: 100 pdef, 43 mdef

So yes HA takes more magic damage, but it's nowhere near as bad as how much physical damage arcane wearers take.

LA is a happy medium. Unless you resort to large amounts of stat bonuses or reduced requirement armor, a balanced mix of heavy + arcane will end up with about the same def as LA. So it's not a weak jack-of-all-trades. Its main drawback is lack of flexibility. With both LA and HA, you can swap in pieces of arcane to boost mdef at the cost of pdef:

LA pdef range = 11-43
HA pdef range = 11-100

LA mdef range = 67-100
HA mdef range = 43-100

Zorish - Harshlands

Ive re stated to HA, and for me its really working. I dont notice that much the lack of magic attack and I can have a good phy defn, which helps me a lot in TW, (actually it was great not dying to aarchers) and getting the perfect combination of gear gives me a nice magic defense.
The major problem is getting items with +stats or molds with those. Its something I have to work on, but its my first time playing a veno and it takes time to learn xD

XKIAx - Heavens Tear

Thanks solandri.

Zorish - Harshlands wrote: »

Ive re stated to HA, and for me its really working. I dont notice that much the lack of magic attack and I can have a good phy defn, which helps me a lot in TW, (actually it was great not dying to aarchers) and getting the perfect combination of gear gives me a nice magic defense.
The major problem is getting items with +stats or molds with those. Its something I have to work on, but its my first time playing a veno and it takes time to learn xD

Did you find that mages hits harder now? How much harder? (more or less).

Thanks for the answers.

Dioica - Sanctuary

Byno - Sanctuary wrote: »

Of course. Not all LA are going to have more hp than a HA, since most of them don't bother actually putting any work into their stats, but if one is going to put the effort forth to get the +stats to wear HA, then hp isn't really much of a bonus because LA would give more with the same equips.

I am not sure if this always would be true if you refine your armor?

Byno - Sanctuary

Dioica - Sanctuary wrote: »

I am not sure if this always would be true if you refine your armor?

Refine your armor? I'm not sure what you mean. With LA and HA armor refined to the same level ((in this case +3ish)), with the same ornaments/equips, LA would get more hp out of the bonus vit they get, even though HA refines for slightly more ((this is in reference, of course, to the tt90 armors since I don't know the refine stats for tt99 and such)). I think you'd have to have your refinements more in the +5/+6 range for the HA refinement bonus to overtake the LA vit bonus.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

Byno - Sanctuary wrote: »

Refine your armor? I'm not sure what you mean. With LA and HA armor refined to the same level ((in this case +3ish)), with the same ornaments/equips, LA would get more hp out of the bonus vit they get, even though HA refines for slightly more ((this is in reference, of course, to the tt90 armors since I don't know the refine stats for tt99 and such)). I think you'd have to have your refinements more in the +5/+6 range for the HA refinement bonus to overtake the LA vit bonus.

Against physical damage, LA will burn through that HP faster than HA will. Against magical damage HA can switch to Arcane pieces to limit how fast they burn through their HP which, in my opinion, is the only time it would actually matter, and if they have an arcane set, they still might not burn through their HP as fast as LA would.

Basically, the higher your DR% against that type of damage, the slower you burn through your HP.


HA/Arcane builds, in my opinion, are an attempt to min/max both Magic and Physical DRs.