Hercules skills

woland

Hello, I recently purchased a Baby hercules and I've been wondering...

The 3 last skills (+150% mag def and phys def, 70% physical reflect) are undoubtedly ultimate tank skills, but the stun skill...

If I want it to be a 100% tanking pet, should I:
a) leave the stunning skill
b) replace it with Bash
c) replace it with Roar

Thanks in advance for any opinions.

JustForFun - Heavens Tear

Replace it with bash IMO.

Reivi - Sanctuary

When playing in party

the stun does interupt casting mobs.;

Just play at 2 venos. One lures, the other takes on the mob

Your friend will be gratefull when pounce will stop the mobs from casting.

you can do it sol otoo .; just lure with another pet.; and be max distance.

Dont see any GOOD reason to change pounce.
It did save the life of friends more than once.

and I rarely take aggro on Herc...(Im LA build)

Go for bash , try to lure, take one or 2 casts or arrow .. and see the difference.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

In addition to the stun, it increases attack speed by 25% for 15 seconds if the stun lands.

XKIAx - Heavens Tear

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

In addition to the stun, it increases attack speed by 25% for 15 seconds if the stun lands.

That is true, it has an 80% chance to succeed on a stun. But the cooldown for the skill is 1 min long and stun never works on big bosses. So bash with its 8 sec (i think) cooldown is much better IMO.

Daerys - Sanctuary

Bash is a much better all around skill, since Pounce doesn't work on most bosses, so unless you plan on never tanking bosses(why'd you get the herc again?) then definitely drop Pounce for Bash.

Reivi - Sanctuary

never tanking bosses?

why do you need bash to take on bosses?

see the avatar.. lv 82 .. i do take on all the bosses of fb 89

I wont talk about fb 79 ..

I take on Polar Bear, Deiciter black , and the others ( even with adds) without any problem.

The only times i have problems for 15 seconds is when my wife is duoting with me, and uses her Cub with lv 4 flesh ream .. ( the cub takes the aggro for about 15 seconds the first time he reams the mob/boss .. )

Why ... and i really want to know.. why should I change pounce? Bash . 8 sec , 185% of base damages if lv 5, about 4k for 82 herc, on wich you should substracts all that counts for Thac0, on a boss of fb 79 or 89, deiceiter , polar .. Herc hits for 1100 -1300 ( roughly by memory) and every 8 seconds he could one hit for the double... cool .. that wont reduce the fight by half the time.

on the other hand, never in TT, in FB, or on any of the aformentioned bosses did my wife, a friend or myself when luring did we take brunts from those mobs or bosses.; pounce always steals the aggro and stops the mobs from casting.

so . losing pounce for bash ??? lol

and you think you know how to optimize ?

Daerys - Sanctuary

Lvl 5 Bash is 200%, and if you read a little more carefully I said that Pounce doesn't work on bosses, and therefore is worthless against them. Bash works on everything. Effectiveness against trash mobs is irrelevant, they're trash mobs.

Change or don't change, I have no concern one way or the other. Just laying out the facts. Bash is vastly superior against bosses, and isn't that the reason we use a Herc anyway?

Reivi - Sanctuary

Daerys.. have you read the post? wich names arent bosses ?

deiceiter black ? polar bear ? 1000 year deity ?

do you know that when entering a dungeon you need to stow and call herc so pounce works ? ( pounce doenst work when changing zones)

you need herc for TW bosses cause you do them alone ? (Gratz then )

Daerys - Sanctuary

Back off there Reivi, not sure what the hell I said to **** in your cornflakes. You like Pounce, we get it. It has it advantages, no one denies that. You tank fb89 bosses, we get it. Once again.... against bosses Bash is still better. Against trash Pounce is better.

And who the hell even mentioned TW? I sure didn't.

Reivi - Sanctuary

i just wondered on wich bosses pounce doesnt work on ?

all the TT bosses.. works. ;when pulled ( wurlord as example) stopped in its tracks.

I solo fb 59 for darkness tickets... I lure all the bosses with magmite.. herc stops them in their tracks before reaching me or casting me.

FB 69 , works also, only problem is that Herc doesnt like Ceneequs.

Fb 79, works on all bosses

Fb 89 ( luring with magmite between the antelopes) herc stops the bosses just fine.

you didnt pissed me Daerys.; the whole Bash is better pisses me, cause I NEVER seen a real good exemple that proves that.

Daerys - Sanctuary

You're absolutely certain Pounce works on all these bosses? I know for a fact other stuns don't, so I guess I just assumed (along with 99% of the veno community) that Pounce wouldn't work. If it does work then I think there are going to be an awful lot of angry Herc owners screaming for free Pounce scrolls, myself included.

Reivi - Sanctuary

it sure works.. i do it daily .; and when in group with my friends.. they know that herc or the cub (as backup) will stop the bosses

That wont last 3 sec.. but it sure stops them from casting.

the only problem is with fast runners ( mobs do adjust their speed to the puller / lurer)

in fb 69 i always stop Gaurnob / cenequus when he is pulled by a friend. (flash , stars and all)
in 79 linus doesnt past middle of the room (flash, stars and all)


in 59 herc stops all the bosses and has time to buff himself while the boss is stuned.

in 89 the bosses are stoped by herc when my wife pulls them, once again flash, stars and all, my wife pulls with cub and flesh ream.. so it s a little hard for herc and its low damages to take on aggro..; but all the bosses are stoped in their tracks by herc and the casts are stopped.

Literature - Harshlands

Pounce sucks. I used to wonder if bash really held aggro like people said. I even made threads about it because I was dirt poor and didn't wanna waste money. But I noticed just 1 shot from ironwood scarab would draw aggro to me and herc couldn't regain it. Two shots from venemous would do the same thing. So I upgraded bash to 4 and it holds everything no matter how much I spam. I can even attack 1st and herc will get aggro. You can't do that with pounce...atleast not as pure mag.

The only time I have to watch my damage with bash is when I'm cleric buffed or on weaker mobs.

-edit- And also to Reivi, you must never party with wiz, archer or even barb in human form? Theres no way pounce can hold aggro with those chars spamming skills.

Reivi - Sanctuary

@ lit

i never Told it hold aggro.. with the lame damages herc does, bash would hold aggro.

I just said that pounce works as intended even on bosses.

Herc doesnt hold aggro to a magmite

But , pounce works.

euh..why would you fire first on mobs ? just let herc do the first hit.

why venomous or firewood?

I almost only uses noxious ( why have herc to do one mob only? )
Sometimes, poisoned mobs switch to me but herc gets the aggro back with one hit.

In TT herc will always have the aggro with a mixed party, barbs, Bm, Wiz have their damages reduced.

In Fb if they want to take the aggro no problem.. Herc only does what doesnt work for them .. stun the boss at the inc.

Literature - Harshlands

Reivi - Sanctuary wrote: »

@ lit

i never Told it hold aggro.. with the lame damages herc does, bash would hold aggro.

I just said that pounce works as intended even on bosses.

Herc doesnt hold aggro to a magmite

But , pounce works.

euh..why would you fire first on mobs ? just let herc do the first hit.

why venomous or firewood?

I almost only uses noxious ( why have herc to do one mob only? )
Sometimes, poisoned mobs switch to me but herc gets the aggro back with one hit.

In TT herc will always have the aggro with a mixed party, barbs, Bm, Wiz have their damages reduced.

In Fb if they want to take the aggro no problem.. Herc only does what doesnt work for them .. stun the boss at the inc.

Reivi - Sanctuary wrote: »

and you think you know how to optimize ?

Why do I attack first on mobs? Uhhh....because I can? Because the herc catches aggro and I don't need it to attack first. It's faster. People who use noxious and AOE grind aren't thinking. It's super slow and can easily result in death for a veno. In the time it takes to gather those mobs up, healing the herc, using noxious gas to kill them, I can kill the same amount 1 by 1.

And you keep talking about this damn stun on pounce. It has a bull**** cooldown time and doesn't even keep aggro. Do you even play with wiz or archers that can draw aggro in two seconds? That can wipe out a party with no cleric or tank. If you always do FB's with a full party then YOU are the one not playing your char to it's fullest potential.

How the fk are you lvl 82?

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

Reivi - Sanctuary wrote: »

i just wondered on wich bosses pounce doesnt work on ?

all the TT bosses.. works. ;when pulled ( wurlord as example) stopped in its tracks.

I solo fb 59 for darkness tickets... I lure all the bosses with magmite.. herc stops them in their tracks before reaching me or casting me.

FB 69 , works also, only problem is that Herc doesnt like Ceneequs.

Fb 79, works on all bosses

Fb 89 ( luring with magmite between the antelopes) herc stops the bosses just fine.

you didnt pissed me Daerys.; the whole Bash is better pisses me, cause I NEVER seen a real good exemple that proves that.

Does the debuff that says the mob is stunned pop up?

Reivi - Sanctuary

@ lit

maybe I know how to play ?
There is never a dead in a party i lead.. others than ppl doing FFA


@ Laz .

yep

but ..since we talk herc skills... do you have the same problem with the magic buff that only lasts 1/2 hr? and not the 1 hr noticed?

cybluerr

strange that my pet's pounce skill doesnt work on bosses.

khalamo21

Pounce doesnt work on bosses. It doesnt build aggro so if some1 steal aggro from herc on boss, u wont be able to take it back. Secondly Pounce doesnt stun bosses which means u wont get any better dps with it.

That said if u party u are slow cause ppl cant attack so they wont steal aggro. If u solo u are also slower cause dmg with bash is better than herc with pounce on bosses.

Last thing is normal training. Without bash u gotta send herc first and let him do few hits which slowers your training no matter what u ppl say. Also using herc to tank few mobs and using aoe is much slower than killing them 1 by 1. You have to wait few seconds for herc to attack all of them few times to cast a spell or all will come after u and u have to run away (u dont attack).

The real reason ppl keep pounce is cause they cant get it back and are scared. I have never seen veno that wasnt happy for replacing it with bash and wouldnt advice the same to others.

Person that didnt try bash on herc cant give u advice cause she has no experience with bash herc.

Desolate - Lost City

khalamo21 wrote: »

Bash doesnt work on bosses. It doesnt build aggro so if some1 steal aggro from herc on boss, u wont be able to take it back. Secondly Pounce doesnt stun bosses which means u wont get any better dps with it.

That said if u party u are slow cause ppl cant attack so they wont steal aggro. If u solo u are also slower cause dmg with bash is better than herc with pounce on bosses.

Last thing is normal training. Without bash u gotta send herc first and let him do few hits which slowers your training no matter what u ppl say. Also using herc to tank few mobs and using aoe is much slower than killing them 1 by 1. You have to wait few seconds for herc to attack all of them few times to cast a spell or all will come after u and u have to run away (u dont attack).

The real reason ppl keep pounce is cause they cant get it back and are scared. I have never seen veno that wasnt happy for replacing it with bash and wouldnt advice the same to others.

Person that didnt try bash on herc cant give u advice cause she has no experience with bash herc.

Pretty sure Bash works on bosses. But you can't expect it to seize aggro to regain the threshold of the party immediately, like Roar would if used. While Bash wouldn't work like a barbarian's Flesh Ream, it does help build damage over time to help keep aggro maintained.

khalamo21

Sry I meant pounce Ofc bash works on bosses. Pounce doesnt as bosses cant be stunned

MentalEdge - Heavens Tear

One lvl 5 bash fom herc and i can kill any mob i train on without taking aggro ,in tt bash is the shiznit so to speak nothing will take aggro from herc in there unless a barb has unlimited chi,in fbs and other boss types yeah sure bash won't hold aggro for long if you have a party of dd's,then again barbs have a hard time holding aggro also without sparks being passed,and no way can pounce do any of that,maybe it can stop a boss reaching you if you're luring it but saying that most high lvl venos have -channel gears and don't have that problem anyway...pounce on your tank in favour of bash or even fleshream is just folly.

Wurlord is the one thing where it is usefull during a lure,thats all.

Literature - Harshlands

khalamo21 wrote: »

That said if u party u are slow cause ppl cant attack so they wont steal aggro. If u solo u are also slower cause dmg with bash is better than herc with pounce on bosses.

Last thing is normal training. Without bash u gotta send herc first and let him do few hits which slowers your training no matter what u ppl say. Also using herc to tank few mobs and using aoe is much slower than killing them 1 by 1. You have to wait few seconds for herc to attack all of them few times to cast a spell or all will come after u and u have to run away (u dont attack).

+1 thats exactly what I was saying. People will draw aggro like crazy without takin pounce off. You would have to gimp your damage output bigtime.

And roar woul be better even than bash for holding aggro. But most people don't get it because it doesn't do damage.

So gl with your pounce Reivi.

khalamo21

I know that in HH getting aggro of herc is tough thing regardless what skill it uses but bash means higher dps = faster boss kills.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

My herc steals agro from barbs sometimes in TT even with skills turned off, though its rare. When I use bash no one can hope to get agro, which is the entire point.

woland

Thank you all for the opinions.

I don't really have the problems with trash mobs, so I don't care. My herc is for my TT/FB expierience, mainlky to help out my guild, as it is the only herc we have.

As I'm lvl 73, and there are some DD's significantly stronger than me, I really need a strong aggro-keeping skill. Therefore I choose Bash.

Thank you all

Literature - Harshlands

woland wrote: »

Thank you all for the opinions.

I don't really have the problems with trash mobs, so I don't care. My herc is for my TT/FB expierience, mainlky to help out my guild, as it is the only herc we have.

As I'm lvl 73, and there are some DD's significantly stronger than me, I really need a strong aggro-keeping skill. Therefore I choose Bash.

Thank you all

Pure tanker = Roar. Bash is not as good but it gets the job done with lower cooldown and it does damage. Thats why most people choose it.

With crazy damage dealers roar would have been better for what you're trying to do. ;o

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Literature - Harshlands wrote: »

Pure tanker = Roar. Bash is not as good but it gets the job done with lower cooldown and it does damage. Thats why most people choose it.

With crazy damage dealers roar would have been better for what you're trying to do. ;o

I've been playing around with Roar and I don't think that's true. I got roar for my golem with the reasoning that when I got a herc, if the herc were to die in a boss fight, my golem would be my backup tank (if for nothing but to tank long enough for me to run away). As backup tank, it (having done zero damage) would have to draw aggro off of players who'd done tons of damage. So Roar is the only option.

I tried using it during a TT run whenever someone accidentally grabbed aggro from the tank. The result was the archer (who hadn't initially grabbed agro) died 3 times. I don't think Roar just puts your pet on top of the aggro list, I think it wipes out any previously accumulated aggro. If an archer or wiz hits the mob for a lot of damage right after your pet Roars, they'll jump straight to the top of the aggro list and there's nothing you can do about it except hope they survive until the tank/pet does sufficient damage to get aggro back.

Mariejane - Sanctuary

so in TT/FB i get Roar or bash ??

Moon - Harshlands

Bash ftw..