People not squadding with me b/c they "Need EXP"?

Hildeborg - Heavens Tear

No matter what - if people are whining for group because they are not able to hold their own against regular world mob, they should delete and reroll because their build sucks to kingdom come.

Such characters are a liability later on. Weaklings. Cripples. Dead weight. Only good at wasting guild resources on a highly inefficient and useless character.

Helping them survive is bad for you and bad for them.

I rather explain them how to build a survivable char. If they don't want to listen ... *thumbs down* Let the weak and the meek be culled !

Smexxyfox - Heavens Tear

I beleive the point was to get more exp, where in this thread did u read that players need help to kill mobs?
Also since when does a BM suck that has trouble with magic mobs or a wiz that takes lots of dmg from melee mobs?

Assuming ppl's build suck just because they enjoy to squad to save money on repairs, get extra exp and save time is really ignorant.

Soho - Lost City

Personally, I don't party with people just because I dislike sharing drops as right now I'm low on cash, if it's a hard quest or someone specifically asks me for help cause they are having trouble. Generally, I just like to quest alone anyways, I find people make me do most of the work if I party with them. It's always a "Brb, quick" or something...

b:shutup

ShiroiAurion - Heavens Tear

If you squad right, you do get bonus xp and don't kill slower. This doesn't necesserily mean you need to kill separately though. If the mob hp balance is right killing together can be very helpful, like when one of you is a cleric/wizard casting mp-costly spells that do 1k damage while the mob only has 100 hp left. Let the other classes chop that last little bit away, it doesn't reduce their effectiveness getting the last hit but it's pretty bad for casters.
Since I'm cleric-biased I see another very positive point to squadding: you can buff other people and benefit from it yourself b:victory

It is true that it seems that you get less items if you squad, but this is often caused by level differences between squad members. Still, I do seem to have much less income when squadding, even with equal levels. Yet, what do I need money for other than better weapons/charms/pots/mounts which equals to faster killing = more xp? So why is getting less money for more xp a downside?

Kingpiccolo - Heavens Tear wrote: »

All those who think they lose exp by partying are complete and utter idiots, do you honestly think that soloing through a quest is going to save you grinding? What the hell do you think you are doing when you are killing these mobs? YOU ARE GRINDING ALREADY, just because there's a counter there counting the mobs you kill doesn't the grind any less of a grind, how thick can you be?

Find me a single mob area in PW where you can't kill constantly in a squad of 3 and I'll eat my own hat.

Hahaa, spot on! Just what I'm thinking. Why do people fail to notice this? >_<

Oh and I've always wondered why people on PW never visibly wear hats. =P

Briegg - Sanctuary

squadding doesn't give you more exp unless your the slower killer in the squad

i mean think about it
okay you have two people in your squad so you can kill monsters twice as fast
more exp?
no..
because your splitting the exp so it's the same as if you were grinding alone


the only way you'd get more exp in a squad is if you were the one
killing mobs at a slower rate
however coversely the one in the squad killing mobs at a fatser rate
is actually getting less exp than he/she would if the were grinding alone

ShiroiAurion - Heavens Tear

Briegg - Sanctuary wrote: »

okay you have two people in your squad so you can kill monsters twice as fast
more exp?
no..
because your splitting the exp so it's the same as if you were grinding alone

Wrong.

Proof:
1. Kill a mob
2. Write down how much xp it gives
3. Squad
4. Kill the same type mob
5. Write down how much xp it gives
6. Divide the number from point 5 by the amount of squad members
7. Compare the xp from point 2 with the number from point 6
This comparison gives either:
Case 8a. point 6>point 2 QED: squadding gives you more xp than soloing
Case 8b. The amounts are equal or 2<6: Like Kingpicollo I will eat my hat too

Smexxyfox - Heavens Tear

@Briegg

Maybe go test this before you just spread lies on the forum please. We have enough players already thats confused and thinking partying is bad based on lies and guesses.

Briegg - Sanctuary

exp is divided equally give or take a couple points
but levels have something to do with it

here i just did a quick test here's what i got
43 Mastiff of great divide
exp for me single:195

Other player (later squadded with) lvl 42
Player's exp single:223

Squadded
My exp: 124
her exp: 110

so the exp seems to be split for the lowest character
in this case the lvl 42's 223 exp
however if we both still get half of her normal exp
it would mean it's not split in half because when both ours added together
would equal 230+
so are we indeed getting an exp bonus for being in a squad?

no..

actually it's do to the level difference
you see it's actually my exp that's being split in half(sort've
see the party system ensures that each member get equals exp points
but not an equal share

i'll explain it like this 40 exp to me at level 47
would equal about 53 or so to say a level 40

so what the party system does in order to give everyone equal shares for different levels
it gives me more exp since i'm the higher level
and less to the lower level(feel like i'm going in circles)

however because of the level difference we each get the same exp

we kill a mastiff it splits my exp 195 two ways
so it's 124 exp for me
and the remaining 71 to the lower level
but because of her lower level those 71 of my exp points
are equal to 110 of hers

does this make any sense?

anyhow
basically if your the higher level you will actually get a slight boost
however to the lower level player it'd be as if they were just getting half of what they'd normally
get so even if the mobs are killed twice as fast they'd be getting half the exp
thus no difference for them


however hears the main point
it all still balances out
your the higher level so you should be getting more experience right?
nope because since the other character is a lower level they won't kill mobs as fast
so your exp balances back out to normal as if you were just grinding alone

and also yes i have now checked if we are both the same level
at the exp gets split in half for both sides

so basically overall

no you don't more exp in squads unless your a higher level and you have a lower level squad mate that can kill just as fast or faster than you..

go eat your hats

YJ_CN - Lost City

person exp/person total exp rate
1 397 397 100%
2 220 220*2=440 110.8%
3 150 150*3=450 113.4%
4 132 132*4=528 133%
5 119 119*5=595 149.9%
6 110 110*6=660 166.2%

b:chuckle
i like squad~

Cinnamonn - Sanctuary

I actually prefer solo grind, im not a chatter box and i like keeping all my drops. Being a veno i can solo all but boss' and FBs.

Sir_walter - Heavens Tear

ok, so where does a party of 6 BM's go to aoe grind? answer nowhere there is not anyplace large enough with enough mobs. I don't party to grind because its expensive enough to grind without sharing drops. I'm another one who gets very few drops in parties. If i really want to aoe I'll find a Zhen party.

Kingpiccolo - Heavens Tear

Because the only sort of party is a 6 man party. >_>

2 man BM party is the most effective way to AoE grind, keep a bunch of mobs stunlocked and you hardly take any damage as you quickly dispatch them, then you can build chi while letting the mobs respawn and sutra to recover any hp lost. Ontop of you that you are getting a 20% bonus to overall exp. Also if there aren't enough mobs for a 6 man BM party how are there enough mobs for 6 people of different classes? You do realise Zhen parties don't magically make mobs spawn faster right? If 6 bm can kill faster than Zhen party how does Zhen party get more exp? Logic Failure right there.

Basically I'm seeing that people basically don't like to party because they automatically assume the other person is crippled and will AFK while leeching their exp and items. Well if you've got a mouse I can teach you how to leave party if you get stuck in a undesirable one. At level 80 I get quests to kill 80+ mobs of some sort, which I finish twice as quickly when in a squad of 2 and even quicker in squad of 3, I get my quick boost of exp and I can go back to killing the most efficient mob for me to grind on, instead of being stuck killing crappy quest mobs.

Oh and Brieggs, you get a exp and drop rate penalty when killing things more than 2 levels lower than you so that argument does not stand. Not to mention the fact that you do more damage to the mob with higher level skills and the natural bonus damage you get from attacking mobs lower level than you which means you getting more is completely reasonably because you are killing faster.

Smexxyfox - Heavens Tear

I love you maths dude:

exp for you single:195
Squad 124+110 :234
/sarcasm
Yea its clear as daylight to me now, 195 is WAY more than 234.. maybe I should go back to school.
/end sarcasm
Also partying with somone 5 levels lower than you is kinda your own fault wouldnt u say?
Even your other agrument that the lowbie's exp was split is wrong too because 220 is less than 234. I really don't know how you can post the facts and then still argue the opposite.

You also seem to miss the point, just because you are in a party doesnt mean ur going to get 2x exp all of a sudden for ONE kill. like you said you would have gotten 195 and she 223, so if u both killed one mob EACH, total:418. In the party after killing TWO mobs(one each same as before) its 234 + 234 = 468. So once again 468 > 418(wich was ur individual earnings added).
Thats 50 extra exp on a measly 400 odd exp, its more than 10% exp bonus for just two members per two kills.(+-5% extra exp for every kill)

Faustinna - Heavens Tear

I think some of you don't understand that for mob killing quests, some of us REALLY don't need a party. We-4-shot-mobs before they get 1 shot off on us. As a cleric, if i team with someone they expect heals. This wastes unecessary mana i wouldn't have to use otherwise, share DQ drops i wouldn't have to otherwise and i'll get nothing out of it because never have i teamed with someone to have them kill equally fast or faster then me.

Stop spreading myths and rumors so you can get teams. If you build your character right, you do not need a team for quests involving killing monsters. Gather 3-4 quests for monster kills, pop an xp scroll, have fun.

Plus i use charms, always, everytime i've grouped with someone they never have charms. So after a few kills they meditate while i kill. This is called leeching, so no thank you.

ShiroiAurion - Heavens Tear

Faustinna - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As a cleric, if i team with someone they expect heals. This wastes unecessary mana i wouldn't have to use otherwise

You would have to use it to kill the mobs they kill for you instead. Clerics are effective healers. The mp it costs you to heal someone is less than the mp you would need for doing the damage your squad member did for you.

Smexxyfox - Heavens Tear

@Faustinna

I don't know what you are trying to say about spreading myths after we've clearly illustrated the bonus with facts. (even tho the poster tried his best to twart us by killing lower mobs with a unbalanced party)

Once more no one is saying we *need* the help. We are saying the exp is more and the killing is faster, try to understand what its all about before you start saying we want parties because our builds suck.

Lastly like shiroi pointed out, healing uses about 1/2 the mp of attacking and I've NEVER in my freaking life seen a cleric that can kill faster than a veno. Even on wood mobs I kill faster and im doing 1/2 dmg. I've also never seen someone meditate to regain mp, there is the really cool thing in PW called HP/MP potions. I know charm users that constantly have 30million coins have never heard of these things but against regular mobs they work just fine to keep mp/hp up.

I've also never been i a party were i got 1 dq item and the other person got 50. After about a hour of playing the cash I got from selling drops was more than 1/2 of what I normally would get because we usually kill way more mobs in the same time.

All you are doing with these posts of "no one kills as fast as me", "i dont like sharing drops" or "im on charms and dont have time to heal/buff other weaklings" is showing everyone how incredibly selfish, greedy and self centred you really are.

Obsessed - Heavens Tear

Smexxyfox - Heavens Tear wrote: »

@Faustinna

I don't know what you are trying to say about spreading myths after we've clearly illustrated the bonus with facts. (even tho the poster tried his best to twart us by killing lower mobs with a unbalanced party)

Once more no one is saying we *need* the help. We are saying the exp is more and the killing is faster, try to understand what its all about before you start saying we want parties because our builds suck.

Lastly like shiroi pointed out, healing uses about 1/2 the mp of attacking and I've NEVER in my freaking life seen a cleric that can kill faster than a veno. Even on wood mobs I kill faster and im doing 1/2 dmg. I've also never seen someone meditate to regain mp, there is the really cool thing in PW called HP/MP potions. I know charm users that constantly have 30million coins have never heard of these things but against regular mobs they work just fine to keep mp/hp up.

I've also never been i a party were i got 1 dq item and the other person got 50. After about a hour of playing the cash I got from selling drops was more than 1/2 of what I normally would get because we usually kill way more mobs in the same time.

All you are doing with these posts of "no one kills as fast as me", "i dont like sharing drops" or "im on charms and dont have time to heal/buff other weaklings" is showing everyone how incredibly selfish, greedy and self centred you really are.

You've gotten a lucky batch of parties then. There is a lot of incompitent players out there. The parties I -have- been in were horrible, all killed slower then me or couldnt kill at all, went afk, did meditate(lol), and I got about 3 DQ items in an hour. There are people out there who have had bad experiences with parties... b:surrender(though I've never rejected a party and never will, I'm always bored and I like helping, just saying I can see other peoples views)

Smexxyfox - Heavens Tear

Oh I completely agree that some ppl do suck and they make bad party members. But like another guy posted a few posts back , I'l give anyone free lessons on how to press "t" *click on noob* , clck on *kick* XD

You don't need to punish yourself with someone that can't play, try and suggest to them how to play better and if they show attitude just kick em, there are loads more ppl to choose from.

Bitisu - Lost City

O.o
again i must put my two. . wait a sec*counts on fingers* five cents in
>.>
im a bm as its the class i think the most like
now when i do quest i do it usally solo unless i got some one my lvl to squad with
ill only squad with guildies as i can talk to them and we understand our specific roles
for example i did most of my quests up to 48ish with a cleric from my guild(hehe fay im talking about you O.O) i would run around and mob teh quest mob or if they were mixed up id basically gather everything i could and aoe it to death
now if you take into consideration that 1/2 times i gonna arrgo a mob that isnt on the quest list and we both understood that
i would aoe (cause im a axe^^) and he would be flying and healing and since i have diamond sutra i could take care of myself on 5-6mobs and he could focus on picking off other mobs
or if it was magic mobs he would atk em and do good damage and id basically stun lock the mobs
either way its about communication and trust me vent/skype helps alot
<.<
. . .
yea
ill solo grind but if its quest mobs ill squad cause its faster and i usally get a bit more exp cause i kill everything in site not just the quest mob
>.>
. . .
or there is always rep farming where the one man army quest where you kill a certain amount of mobs ( you know you dont get exp from em that good anyway) so you kill em fast and then take up the quest again
for 46-50 we did what was called conquesting farming where you basically aoe kill conquesting dustwraiths(i swear they are made for aoeing) and wow does the rep stack up
*nods*
any who its all about communication and understanding your character roles
>.>
.......
i think im done
<.<
. . .
yea
*runs*

Granrey - Sanctuary

Wow, I see a lot of missinfo here.

I'm a blademaster. When partying with another player at closer level we can kill 4 times more mobs without going to meditation or using potions and reduce the posibility of being killed close to 0%.

Even if we get a penalty for squading toguether per every mob, if we spend the same time squading as we would do in solo mode the amount of reward is not comparable. Since most of meditation time now becomes killing time.

Squading also creates networks, without networks you level too slowly in the game.

I wish I could squad all of the time during the game for every quest.

I'm actually on a squad all the time but we are far away from each other a lot since we are doing different quests but at least we share the coins and the chat. When we need help we get back to each other quick.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »

Wow, I see a lot of missinfo here.

I'm a blademaster. When partying with another player at closer level we can kill 4 times more mobs without going to meditation or using potions and reduce the posibility of being killed close to 0%.

That's because you're melee. Most of the ranged classes can kill stuff taking little or no damage. In their case, the amount of mana needed to kill a mob is exactly the same. If you do it solo, you need 4 spells and need to med after (say) 10 mobs. If you do it in a group of 2, you need 2 spells (and the other person needs 2 spells) and need to med after 20 mobs. But your exp is halved so you're getting the same exp per time spent meditating. Hence no incentive to group.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Even if all players were equally capable of killing mobs you still get diminishing returns with more players. Players are much more likely to target the same mobs in groups so maybe 2 players can kill 50% more mobs then alone. The only time I would squad for a killing quest is if there simply arent many mobs available in the area and I find myself running into other players mobs too often.

Zanixx - Heavens Tear

Solemonie - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Also some players consider *ninja invites* rude and will deny em anyway.

what i hate more than ninja invites is ninja faction invites. when your just grinding and someone sends you one. you think its a squad invite so you click "Yes" and *boom* your in there faction. has happened to me once when i first started this character. and twice on my alt lol.

Zanixx - Heavens Tear

yeah well thats about it

Dollet - Sanctuary

There are a couple reasons I sometimes don't squad

First, I might be playing semi-AFK. For instance, I'll be watching an tv show, having a conversation with my roommate, on the phone, or studying during my meditation breaks. If I were squadded with someone, these distractions would cause unnecessary problems in our teamwork. So for both our sakes, I just say something like, "Sorry, no thanks, I'm almost done" etc to keep it simple.

Another reason is the opposite. Sometimes I'm really in a fast grind mood with lots of potions and charms, and I've noticed that the other person just can't really keep up. They pause too much between monsters, or they're not doing their fair share of the damage.

Or maybe I just think the other person is rude. I take notice of people KSing others, having bad coversations in e chat, or saying to me "HAY SEXXXY HEAL/REZ MEH NOW PLZ"? If I don't like them already, we're probably not going to work well together.

I still squad some times and do agree that it's a great way to meet people. I've met some really cool people through squads, and I have fun when we're working towards a common goal effectively. Plus, it makes sense when there's a lot of people fighting over limited mobs in one area.

In general, people all have different play styles and expectations, which also change with their mood. They have their own reasons for asking for squads or refusing squads that, like me, they might not feel like going into a long explaination. We don't really know what's going on on the other side of the monitor. Also, people are pretty set in their perspectives on whether they enjoy teams or not. Pushing one's arguments after a certain point won't really get them to change their playstyles or mindsets.

Granrey - Sanctuary

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That's because you're melee. Most of the ranged classes can kill stuff taking little or no damage. In their case, the amount of mana needed to kill a mob is exactly the same. If you do it solo, you need 4 spells and need to med after (say) 10 mobs. If you do it in a group of 2, you need 2 spells (and the other person needs 2 spells) and need to med after 20 mobs. But your exp is halved so you're getting the same exp per time spent meditating. Hence no incentive to group.

I have to go in more detail.

I have to clarify first the squad has to work as a team rather than a group to make the system work.

-When I'm killing mobs close to my level (solo). I usually kill one and go to meditation. When I'm with another partner we can kill 3 or 4 without going to meditation.

-When solo you have to fight to find prey. Yes, that’s right. Go to the mines in Archo and you have to fight to find prey since that area is very busy all the time with quests and grinding. Even if somebody (soloing) else started to attack the mob and your squad attacks the mob too the other guy will probably leave the mob since he will not do most of the kill and the kill will not count on his quest.

Less meditation time and more killing time, killed probability almost 0% and success rate close to 100% on every mob at your level. There is no way this can go wrong.

To make this easy to understand imagine that on a particular mob you have the 50% chances of killing the mob and the other 50% means you either walk away or get killed.

Guess what? with a partner the success rate will be 100% since in the case you see yourself getting almost killed, you walk away and your partner will finish it. This will work even when you are fighting on your own and your partner will kick when you are in trouble.

As weird as it sounds, people 10 levels higher than mine have ask me to squad with them just to do that extra little help that avoid them walking away from the prey or getting killed. All they do is to kill extra mobs to compensate the exps they lose for having me on the squad.

When you walk away solo you get no exp. (and lose time) and if you die you lose rep. with a team you do not die and when you walk away he finishes the mob for you and you get exp too.

My suggestion for squad is kill one or two and go to meditation. Kill twice as many mobs as you would do soloing and everything will be fine.

The worst part of soloing is that it is boring, slow leveling, risky and you do not create networking.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That's because you're melee. Most of the ranged classes can kill stuff taking little or no damage. In their case, the amount of mana needed to kill a mob is exactly the same. If you do it solo, you need 4 spells and need to med after (say) 10 mobs. If you do it in a group of 2, you need 2 spells (and the other person needs 2 spells) and need to med after 20 mobs. But your exp is halved so you're getting the same exp per time spent meditating. Hence no incentive to group.

I think I see your point, but you can recover even when you fight, and pacing matters.

And even if you gained no other benefits from squadding, if you were safer that could be an advantage for you. Also, you probably need to take some time getting into a good attacking position. And maybe you find yourself sometimes waiting for 30 second cooldowns. And kiting and other kinds of running can take time.

Also, monsters have been designed so they initially do almost nothing and then they start ramping up their damage. If you so overpower them that you can kill them solo before you had any risk, then in squad you might fall back on skills with lower power requirements.

Personally, I might not want to squad (or do anything difficult) if I was doing something in real life where I might have to quit without warning. But I do not think you were concerned with this?

Gasoline - Lost City

Only time i party for quests is if the other person actively is killing fast, and can handle their own kills (mostly other venos or archers).
A huge amount of ppl dont, they kill 1-3 mobs than they meditate.
Or they go afk in the air or they hit same mob as me even tho there is plenty other mobs to kill. Or clerics that just heals/buffs from air instead of killing saying "im support cleric only".

I do know that clerics and wiz eat mp-pots and often lacks money to buy knew. But its really not my problem if someone cant afford pots. I don't wanna wait 5 min while they restore mp, neither do i wanna let them leech loot and xp while im killing.

I do party with friends at airmobs when i want exp. Because 4-6 ppl grindparty on scroll killing fast at same speed is really good exp compared to grinding alone. But party random ppl for quests is mostly just a pain. And random loot is never random btw, its really annoying when u kill so much faster and he/she gets all the drops b:angry. But at some places u do have to squad if u wanna finish quest, since there is more players than mobs around.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Even if all players were equally capable of killing mobs you still get diminishing returns with more players. Players are much more likely to target the same mobs in groups so maybe 2 players can kill 50% more mobs then alone. The only time I would squad for a killing quest is if there simply arent many mobs available in the area and I find myself running into other players mobs too often.

Like I mentioned, most people haven't figured out the art of pulling. Most groups kill a mob, then send someone out to find something else to kill. Then they sit and wait, wasting time.

A skilled puller in a full group will have the group fighting non-stop. They will estimate how long it'll take them to bring the next mob, then leave halfway through the fight. They'll come back with the next mob right around the time the group finishes killing the first mob. I used to do that when pulling in EQ, and after half an hour some people would start begging me for a break while others would say no way this was the best exp they've had. This is part of the reason why zhen groups work so well - people unintentionally end up doing this.

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think I see your point, but you can recover even when you fight, and pacing matters.

Recovery rate is the same whether you're solo or in a full group. Pacing matters in terms of boredom. Are you constantly hunting/fighting, or are you fighting then sitting bored while you med? You get the highest overall kill rate when you kill stuff quickly and empty your mana bar, then sit to med (take advantage of the regen bonus while medding). But that tends to be boring, and it's more difficult to synchronize that in a group. It's actually easier to accomplish solo.

Smexxyfox - Heavens Tear

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That's because you're melee. Most of the ranged classes can kill stuff taking little or no damage. In their case, the amount of mana needed to kill a mob is exactly the same. If you do it solo, you need 4 spells and need to med after (say) 10 mobs. If you do it in a group of 2, you need 2 spells (and the other person needs 2 spells) and need to med after 20 mobs. But your exp is halved so you're getting the same exp per time spent meditating. Hence no incentive to group.

After all thats been said in this thread there are still ppl like this guy that thinks exp is halved! b:cry
How many times do we need to show u the facts of getting at least 20% extra xp per kill in a party?