Heavy Armor/Str Build, come dance with me.

Dinny - Heavens Tear

Foreword: I'm agonizingly aware this topic has been raised before, from the looks of things, approximately two months ago. I'm reviving it in a new thread. **** you all, necroing sucks.

I seldom see other Venomancers donning plate and axe, but I'm damn glad I chose that road. With my build I dish out the damage of your average Blademaster but have a pet's damage on top of that, and in addition, that pet acting as my esteemed meat-shield. Sweet.

Also, I find I'm always loaded with cash as there are only a few spells that are beneficial to me.

Anyway, I was wanting to hear any experiences, stories or tricks-of-the-trade as developed by fellow heavy armor comrades. Got any? Talk about them, swap them and debate them here. I'm just after hearing from you.

Furthermore, if interest is high enough, I will take time out of my day to write up a comprehensive guide on how to build a STR-based Veno and not suck. At this point in time, no reliable guideline exists and I see people abiding by home-grown builds.

So yeah. Come on you heavies, come and talk to me. I don't bite. Usually.

P.S. "Fox form" and "Melee/Strength Based" Venomancers are two distinctly different builds. I suppose I'm targeting both with this thread. If I were to write a guide -- if enough interest arose -- I would be sure to cover both adequately.

Silvia_Xenth - Lost City

wel i am a foxform veno player NOT tr actually but a VIT magic TANker cos i CAN tank and wear Magic weapon in foxform wish is the base off my damage in form srry iff i am not writting as a heavy tried that build in foxform and was very hard staying alive cos off HP while the build i am using now even iff it robe while lv2 foxform i get some Deff boost and a amasing HP 2 boot and a weapon 15 lv lower then build but i like it cos it hard 2 kill me i aint squeshy ANYMOREb:laugh reply iff u want

Dinny - Heavens Tear

Silvia_Xenth - Lost City wrote: »

wel i am a foxform veno player NOT tr actually but a VIT magic TANker cos i CAN tank and wear Magic weapon in foxform wish is the base off my damage in form srry iff i am not writting as a heavy tried that build in foxform and was very hard staying alive cos off HP while the build i am using now even iff it robe while lv2 foxform i get some Deff boost and a amasing HP 2 boot and a weapon 15 lv lower then build but i like it cos it hard 2 kill me i aint squeshy ANYMOREb:laugh reply iff u want

Hi Silvia thank you for your speedy reply!

Yes, when foxform is properly built it is a beautiful thing. I'm melee rather than fox, but when I switch to foxform... the defense is incredible! And you never need to heal either. I just spam leech whenever my HP seems to dip. Sapping enemies health is fantastic.

fuzzles

There's no reason to be a melee, non fox form veno. Absolutely none. Contrary to what you say, they're **** compared to fox form venos. In every single way.

If you don't want to spend any points on int, but still want to melee in fox form, simply use that low level quest reward wand. It's a magic weapon, but doesn't need any int to use.

If you see any melee non fox form venos, feel free to tell them that they're most likely not that bright.

So yeah. I'd advise you to get your hands on that wand as soon as you can, ditch the axes, and start leveling those foxy skills.

I was bored and couldn't resist. And I couldn't find any screenies of venos with axes. Close enough though, so just to translate that into internet speak for those of you playing the home game, here's the gist of it.
http://diy.despair.com/output/poster58555042.jpg

Dinny - Heavens Tear

fuzzles wrote: »

There's no reason to be a melee, non fox form veno. Absolutely none. Contrary to what you say, they're **** compared to fox form venos. In every single way.

If you don't want to spend any points on int, but still want to melee in fox form, simply use that low level quest reward wand. It's a magic weapon, but doesn't need any int to use.

If you see any melee non fox form venos, feel free to tell them that they're most likely not that bright.

So yeah. I'd advise you to get your hands on that wand as soon as you can, ditch the axes, and start leveling those foxy skills.

I was bored and couldn't resist. And I couldn't find any screenies of venos with axes. Close enough though, so just to translate that into internet speak for those of you playing the home game, here's the gist of it.
http://diy.despair.com/output/poster58555042.jpg

The thing is, I'm built to accommodate both, mainly to switch it up. I do plenty of foxforming and I'm virtually a brick wall when I am. I've definitely done as you've said and taken fox skills under my belt. It's a bit of a strain though -- foxform is a very odd build. I own both a wand and axes, so I can literally do either.

"If you don't want to spend any points on int, but still want to melee in fox form, simply use that low level quest reward wand. It's a magic weapon, but doesn't need any int to use."

Virtually what I've done. b:laugh Works well, I might add.

Basically, I don't know what you're whining about. I don't intend on PvP, and as far as PvE goes... I got to level 61 without a problem and I continue to climb in regard to level, so I don't see the issue. And a lot of that would have been meleeing non-foxform.

There is no need to be rude, and I admit I was extremely offended by:

"... feel free to tell them that they're most likely not that bright."

I created this topic to hear from foxforms and/or melees, not for you to come in here and hurt my feelings. I didn't deserve that; just because I choose to play in a style that you deem unconventional does not mean I, or any other melees out there, are to be labeled as "not that bright". I believe you owe me an apology for that comment -- I never stepped on your toes, so I expect mine not to be stepped on either.

Please have a little more consideration. Your points are all valid and I will take the time to read and consider what you say and treat you respectfully, and in return, I expect to also be treated with decency. Thank you.

Edit: Oh, while I remember, I deal roughly 3k a hit with my axes, just shy of 4k if I'm lucky. Also, I hit once per second. From this, we can deduce that without crits, I will deal an average of 30k every ten seconds. At least. Additionally, I crit in at about 6k, usually marginally less. Please tell me how this "****".

chickenwingling

Question - you are hitting 3K (at least you make it sound that way since you're shy from 4K) with an axe at lv61 with a veno? REALLY? Because my warrior at lv61 with HH axes and probably a heck lot more str than you did not... so I'm kinda confused on this

Solandri - Heavens Tear

chickenwingling wrote: »

Question - you are hitting 3K (at least you make it sound that way since you're shy from 4K) with an axe at lv61 with a veno? REALLY? Because my warrior at lv61 with HH axes and probably a heck lot more str than you did not... so I'm kinda confused on this

Nerf venos!!! b:chuckle

Dinny - Heavens Tear

chickenwingling wrote: »

Question - you are hitting 3K (at least you make it sound that way since you're shy from 4K) with an axe at lv61 with a veno? REALLY? Because my warrior at lv61 with HH axes and probably a heck lot more str than you did not... so I'm kinda confused on this

Yes, 3k is my average hit with axes at level 61. And how do you know how much strength I have? :P

I'll get a screenshot later... because if that's the case, then that is indeed somewhat worrying.

chickenwingling

I didn't mean to say I know how much str - but as a warrior their priority is str so chances are a warrior has more str than a veno (well hopefully)... and my warrior with HH axes didn't go near 3K average hit on mobs same lv...

I'm doing str/arcane robe myself... but I'm using a magic sword and wearing str gear that's 10-20 levels lower than me so I can keep the advantage of magic (healing/support with skills) and wear decent def gear

Dinny - Heavens Tear

Okay, later is now. Me fighting a Taurox Enthusiast, which as you know is my level exactly, who is not afflicted by any anything (i.e. Increased Defense, Weakness, etc) and I am unsparked. This is what an average hit looks like, although on the off occasion it can drop to 3k or crit in at about 6k:



Comments? Complaints?

My strength is over 200.

chickenwingling

Few things

1- Can't really tell if you're afflicted by anything doesn't show

2- So you're 61 - how much int you got?

3- So why not become a warrior? Warriors come with much more HP and AWESOME AOE (you can also be a hybrid warrior - dex+str build).... get a mount, do zen and make loads of money... it feels like your calling isn't really a Veno class. And sure the pet tanks for a bit - but seeing you do that much dmg chances are you will steal aggro from your pet of mobs who aren't short on HP. Also honestly - tell me what's this whole "pet tanks" saving you? A few pots an hour? As a warrior I barely ever used any HP pot unless I was fighting a magic based mob - but in your case if you're using axes chances are you are unable to equip arcane armor your level for magic mobs. Also, pet tanking - cool and all but how much can you heal your pet at a time? Also if you get ganked by 2+ mobs then what? I'm not sure how much HP you got but you certainly can't heal your pet fast enough for survival (not taking Hiero into account).

I'm just confused about this whole idea - if I wanted an axe veno I'd definitely choose warriors over venos for AOE/Stun Spells/Zen/TW...

So how do you suppose you'll manage at higher levels?

4- The moment I saw a "**** You" for image I honestly lost all interest in what you what to convey - 'cause initially I was very interested and curious about your build - because I am a NEWBIE when it comes to venos... but now it just feels like you're trying to stand out or something and challenge this forum with the "complaints". And honestly when you show that level of maturity, then your credibility falls short.

Dinny - Heavens Tear

1: Oh, good point. But I'll assure you I'm not. I cropped for size but I still have the full genuine article somewhere if you require assurance.

2: Not a fantastic deal. 50, which is enough for me to use the spells that are useful to me effectively (for example, a scarab which lowers the enemy's physical defense by 30%, and if I become a demon it has a good chance of lowering my enemy's phys to 0) and weild a decent -- but not amazing -- magic object. Also, it needed to be somewhat sufficient in order to heal my pet well.

3: Because I am a busy student and getting to level 61 took months for me and there's no way in hell I'll do that again. I'd rather be a **** Veno playing casually than redo -- I simply don't have the time required to do that, I'm entering university soon. I agree with you thoroughly here. Blademaster/Warrior is honestly more of my 'calling' as you so beautifully put it. I basically started out with the intention to hybrid/light armor but somehow wound up with heavy along the way.

If I get ganked, I still make it out fine. The only time it's a problem is when they're mag based opponents.

No idea how I'll manage at higher levels, can't say for sure. But mobs are really not a problem for me... at all. And I don't have any intention of PvP at this point. If I ever wanted to PvP I could just restat to a more mag-oriented build.

4: Aw, get a sense of humor. A lot of people have been going "Pssh, yeah right" when I tell them how much damage I do, hence the title. It's titled as such because I sent it via MSN to a factionmate. I don't believe there is any issue with being lighthearted, and if you honestly took the title of my image to offense, then you do have my sincere apologies.

Also, "trying to stand out or something and challenge this forum with the "complaints"."? Forgive me for this, but who are you to judge what I'm doing? I opened this thread to hear from people who have taken the same path or from people who are foxform -- NOT to have people come and criticise me. The criticisms are valid, I'm not refuting them, but it's not what I asked for. I didn't come in here and brag about how amazing I am, because it simply isn't the truth. People would crush me in PvP. And please don't attack me for defending myself against fuzzles' claims. You have no right to insinuate that I am immature, particularly when I showed you no disrespect.

In the event that you do in fact believe that I have offended you, again, you have my apologies.

chickenwingling

^U obviously dun read what I wrote! I said I was genuinely curious and honestly wanted to know how you are pulling of your veno UNTIL the image = which said "**** You"

So if asking you a simple question or challenging your dmg ('cause my warrior does less) made you say "**** You" to me and the rest of the thread followed by the "complaints" made me think what I wrote. Like I said I'm a newbie Veno and I play my archer/warrior more so my inquiry to you was nothing less than sincere so I did not appreciate the response I got. Remember if you randomly say "**** you" to someone asking a question - their initial motives/impression will be questioned and I figured since you're asking if anyone's got any "complaints" (weird thing to ask) - then I figured you're just out there to stand out or challenge something.

BTW I'm a student too - in University, 24, in pharmacy school... got 3 6x characters - it's not that hard starting over again especially now since you got money to support your warrior. And hmmm warriors are VERY easy to lv - at least to 6x but after that it gets a lil more challenging and you may have to join AOE/zen parties.

doremi12

Dinny - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Okay, later is now. Me fighting a Taurox Enthusiast, which as you know is my level exactly, who is not afflicted by any anything (i.e. Increased Defense, Weakness, etc) and I am unsparked. This is what an average hit looks like, although on the off occasion it can drop to 3k or crit in at about 6k:



Comments? Complaints?

My strength is over 200.

So you have forego the light and went into darkness b:shocked

HA veno has it place but will required lots od time and patient mainly when you level up, most are magical mob, FB boss to you can be a pain since most does AOE attack. With mag def this small, you get kill quickly and be a burden of the cleric. It will be difficult to find a group who wants you in their party. In FB, you will have trouble healing your pet with this low mag and can not tank the boss yourself hence you low HP and magic defend.

At PvP if you are font to do, caster will be you god enemy and you attk and defend has no match with melee when you gets higher where skill damage modifier matters but you can survive longer against melee in PVP.

The only viable option of HA is to use lower level HA with - in equipment and pump up your mag. I will not going into template but here is something you can ponder on.

PS. Robe build can have 10K phy defend and 8K HP with right equipment +5-7,when in fox form, phy def can goes up to 14K with full buff. This alone, maintain you mag attk and can stand against melee.

Dinny - Heavens Tear

chickenwingling wrote: »

^U obviously dun read what I wrote! I said I was genuinely curious and honestly wanted to know how you are pulling of your veno UNTIL the image = which said "**** You"

So if asking you a simple question or challenging your dmg ('cause my warrior does less) made you say "**** You" to me and the rest of the thread followed by the "complaints" made me think what I wrote. Like I said I'm a newbie Veno and I play my archer/warrior more so my inquiry to you was nothing less than sincere so I did not appreciate the response I got. Remember if you randomly say "**** you" to someone asking a question - their initial motives/impression will be questioned and I figured since you're asking if anyone's got any "complaints" (weird thing to ask) - then I figured you're just out there to stand out or challenge something.

BTW I'm a student too - in University, 24, in pharmacy school... got 3 6x characters - it's not that hard starting over again especially now since you got money to support your warrior. And hmmm warriors are VERY easy to lv - at least to 6x but after that it gets a lil more challenging and you may have to join AOE/zen parties.

Forgive me for misreading you. I didn't say **** You to you... That's the picture's name, and I named it that cause' it was funny when I was sending it to a friend of mine. I did not direct that at you at all.

Pharmacy school and you still have time on your hands, you're incredible. I agree that with the money I have backed up, it will be easier though. Warriors do look like a lot of fun.

Doremi raises a point worthy of notice also. At this point, it seems as though veering away from humanform axes to specializing in foxform is the way to go.

Doremi, you are very right about what you've said. Bosses that don't AoE and all mobs are absolutely fine for me, but AoE bosses are extremely difficult. And PvP, even though I don't play for it, is a joke.

AlpineFrost - Lost City

I play a barb tank :P i have a vague idea of how veno's are supposed to be build/played. This is in no way, shape or form like any veno build i've seen lol.

And yah know what... instead of flaming you ima have to say Kudos.

This is a very unique build, and if it does work as well as you say, and you still enjoy playing it after 60+ lvls then thats all that matters really. I had a PvP built barb, played it to lvl 60 and REALLY enjoyed it! But i started to notice it was harder to find parties for my FB's and whatnot cause i couldnt tank lol. It get's hard, but ignore what the other people are saying, just play your game the way you like to play it.

Good luck with the build Ignore the flamers. NON CONFORMITY FTW!

Eilasvia - Lost City

Dinny can you post a screenshot of your char sheet and some infos about the equip you use?

MintJulip - Sanctuary

Dinny,

I wanted to start out by saying Awesome !! It boggles my mind how un-original people get in a fantasy game, and how stuck we all get in molds. Good job on having fun !

So, the real reason I'm posting. I am currently lvl 58 mage build who is seriously considering restating to light armor. I have to admit at first that my reasons for this were for the look. But, the more I really study the fox tree the more intrigued I am by it, and I am very curious to see how the fox tree is used.

I play on Sanctuary and I have rarely (to the point of never) seen a fox form veno in action.

I noticed that no fox form veno's have posted (or at least they haven't mentioned anything about it) on this thread. If any read this and care to give some of their knowledge that would be great.

Peace,

And enjoy the game !!

MintJulip 58 Venomancer on Sanctuary

wenh93

i hop u all know a melee wf hell or heaven will destroy endgame anyday...
condsider the fact they hav high pdef/ some magic for melee classes and a pet to do some side dmg ya they probably got a phoneix or hercb:cry

Byno - Sanctuary

MintJulip - Sanctuary wrote: »

I noticed that no fox form veno's have posted (or at least they haven't mentioned anything about it) on this thread. If any read this and care to give some of their knowledge that would be great.
MintJulip 58 Venomancer on Sanctuary

The only fox veno I've ever seen on Sanc who knew what she was doing would be Viprae. I have some of the more useful fox form debuffs for TWs or bosses, but I've never experimented with them in day to day grinding.

As for for str/melee veno, it seems like a curious idea but that really cuts out all of your skills. Having a pet is nice for the bonus damage, sure, but without the skills or debuffs, you no longer have most of the strengths a veno usually has. For casual play such as you do, it sounds like a fun experiment, but as you get higher, and 80% of mobs have a magical based ranged attack...If you get spawned on by 2 or three? Ouch.

MintJulip - Sanctuary

Byno - Sanctuary wrote: »

The only fox veno I've ever seen on Sanc who knew what she was doing would be Viprae. I have some of the more useful fox form debuffs for TWs or bosses, but I've never experimented with them in day to day grinding.

As for for str/melee veno, it seems like a curious idea but that really cuts out all of your skills. Having a pet is nice for the bonus damage, sure, but without the skills or debuffs, you no longer have most of the strengths a veno usually has. For casual play such as you do, it sounds like a fun experiment, but as you get higher, and 80% of mobs have a magical based ranged attack...If you get spawned on by 2 or three? Ouch.

Thanks Byno.

Maybe what I'll do is start a new fox form veno to give it a try. I love my veno right now, it just bugs me that I have all these potential skills that I rarely if ever use. I too keep a couple of fox form skills leveled for bosses. I just keep thinking that they have all those fox form skills for a reason. I have noticed that you really gain spark fast in fox form.

Before restat, I will experiment with an alt..... that seems best.

Byno - Sanctuary

MintJulip - Sanctuary wrote: »

Before restat, I will experiment with an alt..... that seems best.

If you decide that you like a fox form veno, I don't think I would advise restating your main. The melee attacks are more or less equal in cost to the scarabs in coin and spirit, and it might be problematic to afford upping the stats enough to support your grinding and leveling. If you do want to swithc, you may want to just keep leveling the alt.

Dinny - Heavens Tear

AlpineFrost: Thank you so kindly -- you're the first person here on the forums who have accepted the build. I'm definitely not saying it's uber or ultimate, but it works. A PvP barb eh? That sounds like fun! I can just imagine all of the melee classes crying as they barely do any damage on you. I definitely hear what you're saying about party slots though, it does get a bit harder as time goes on and on and on.

Non-conformity FTW indeed! Yet, I've still decided to orient this in the way of Foxform specializing. I can keep my build the way it is, but tidy up the loose ends and make me a bit more useful.



Eilasvia: I sure will!




MintJulip: Ah, what a breath of fresh air you are! I will attempt to let you in on foxform specialists a little:

To my knowledge, there are two ways to approach this:

Heavy Armor
Heavy armor build foxformists have incredible pdef. In addition to that, if you are hit, all you have to do is use "leech" on the enemy to recover your lost HP. The melee attack in foxform is derived from two things: strength, and the physical attack on your weapon (which must be a magical implement of some sort, so this is a little tricky).

Heavy Armor foxformists do a little less damage and so like to have pets that do the damaging for them, or pets that tank magic as they do not tank magic as sufficiently.

In this build, you do as a barb would: Stat yourself for armor, and dump everything remaining into Int so that you can equip higher level wands.

So the build is, for every 10 levels, you must increase your STR by 10 and your DEX by 3.

Arcane/Robe
These foxformists essentially become 'light armor'. Their natural arcane robes give them great resistance to magical enemies whilst the ordinary PDEF boost from being in foxform covers the physical aspects. These foxies are generally more all-round. Vit is left untouched, dexterity is too I think (I can't remember if robes requrie dex), strength kept to the absolute minimum (enough to equip your robes and weaps) whilst you pour into magic.

And here's the thing: I don't know if they hit softer than heavy armor or not. While heavy armor has STR, arcane can equip a higher level wand with higher melee/physical attack! So the line gets blurry here.


I am soon to conduct an experiment and conclude whether Robe or Heavy foxes damage more. I will let you know what comes of it.




wenh93: Even if I got to heaven/hell, in PvP, other heaven/**** would destroy me anyway. Having a pet for extra damage is definitely a point worthy of notice however. A melee-based Veno with a Phoenix would indeed be considerably formidable...




Byno: What you say is probably why I haven't encountered difficulties yet: Up until now, many of the mobs have been physical, and I have no problem against those. I will readily admit that if I get ganked by magic mobs, I WILL die. And for that reason it looks like I'll be doing a minor restat.

doremi12

Fox form skills are limited and has only little use while human form has more utilities.

Look at the veno skill you will notice that most are DOT/Debuff. In that veno are sort of support class in mass PvP such as TW but not a damage dealer yourself. HA foxy sure has it use but your effectiveness as a veno reduce to 50%.

But a robe veno can have the advantage of both, look at stats below at L100 with full buff.

HP 8K
Phy. Def : 14474
M. DDef : 11000

Phy Attk : 2323 -3043
M. Attk : 6819 8503

Equipments use are common one either from events or FB and +5-7. In this built, you canturn in foxy and still has decent PA while maintain good magic attack.

b:victory

Xchandra - Heavens Tear

i am a heavy armor veno fox. im following a guide that was posted of the pw: m servers. I only allocate str for my armor and i am pushing for some int to use magic weps.

while melee weps do seems strong, many venos ignore melee mastery. this does make your magic wep attack about as strong as a good melee wep. only in fox you benifit from it.

i go around with my golem and either it tanks or i do if i dont allow it to use special abilites i can tank the dmg.

I do kill faster than full int venos with their golem. dont underestimate the skills foxes have, they do heavy dmg and debuff to boot.

It became apperent who had the advantage when i went to broken bow hill. this place is the slaughter house due to the werewolf spearmen and archers. Because some of the mobs you need run into those spearmen, barbs blade masters, end up running away. most casters get killed quickly if a spearman spawns close to them.
Of all of this i didnt have any trouble at all. infact i would fight 2 mobs at a time. my pet and i can tank. if i would get 3 id just round em up close and use my aoe attack, use my pets abilities to draw aggro from me, heal pet, aoe rip em appart fast and continue pulling. i have yet to buy pots from the stores, the ones that drop are enough. Now that i have my 2nd lvl into fox form, i have 90% more armor from the heavy armor. i actually have more armor than a barb in tiger. however my hp isnt that high. If i get buffed by a cleric with the hp and mp regen, i can consta pull non stop, no pots at all and spam my skills.(and pet skills)
the good thing about the build im opting for is that while limited magic it does allow me to use robes, and by the time i get to where many caster mobs roam, i can easly plot on a few robe items. change my golem for my caster tank and continue on.
2 days i went from 6 to 29, so far mob killing is utterly easy. only time i ever go to human form is when i bramble myself. now as for my armor, i socket or grab armor with hp on it.


now for the nay sayers i ask you this. why would this class be given fox form and skills the form benifits from.? just like all the other classes you can spec to make it work. it plays different but that doesnt make it useless.

heavy armor veno specs have been out waaaay before pwi came out and have been proven useful.

Here is one of those:
http://forum.perfectworld.com.my/viewtopic.php?t=5657

the op of this thread was mocked thru most of the pages yet pushed on to prove it would work, and it did. keep in mind the servers in pw m are pvp only. she explains her strats in pvp (you need to read thru the whole 23 page thread) knows her weaknesses ect. keep in mind her build was to show that fox form in pure str con and agi was a viable build. then she did take some points off from con to get a magic wep which boosed her dmg up. also other fox venos did post their stuff .

one reason i see this build being shunned and the more casterish ones being widely accepted is the fact that the most poplulated servers are pve. and pwi has less pvp , lost city isnt even fully populated.

Xchandra - Heavens Tear

doremi12 wrote: »

Fox form skills are limited and has only little use while human form has more utilities.

Look at the veno skill you will notice that most are DOT/Debuff. In that veno are sort of support class in mass PvP such as TW but not a damage dealer yourself. HA foxy sure has it use but your effectiveness as a veno reduce to 50%.

But a robe veno can have the advantage of both, look at stats below at L100 with full buff.

HP 8K
Phy. Def : 14474
M. DDef : 11000

Phy Attk : 2323 -3043
M. Attk : 6819 8503

Equipments use are common one either from events or FB and +5-7. In this built, you canturn in foxy and still has decent PA while maintain good magic attack.

b:victory

ok so thats what a buffed robe veno? looks more like a light armor to heavy robe one. , why dont you look for a fully buffed heavy armor one. actually provide pics also

aerifyre

At lower(ish) levels, both build types (foxform/pure melee) are fairly good. They can both output some decent damage, and they can both take hits fairly well. Having a good pet also helps up your damage and survivability.

The pure melee type has the advantage of being able to use the scarab spells if you're good at swapping weapons. While you may not deal a ton of damage via the spell itself (due to low magic, so low weapon magic damage), you still get the benefit of the effects. Ironwood Scarab can be quite helpful in this respect.

You also get the use of the hp/mp recovery spells easier, and you don't have to revert forms when you need to recast thorns or speed. As well, since you won't be using an excessive amount of mp normally, the hp/mp swap spell becomes quite useful. Between the swap and the recovery spells, you can stay at full health a majority of the time.

The main disadvantage of a pure melee type, of course, is that you don't really get any special attacks. You will also be limited against magic-type mobs.

Foxform gets the advantages of the special attacks, and the melee mastery. Since foxform gives the boost to p.def, you can spread points out more, and use a combination of magic and heavy armor - giving you decent p.def as well as m.def - and also nets you a better weapon - though that mainly only helps with pet healing. While you may not be able to wear armor at its exact level, you'll have more options. You could, also, go for pure heavy armor, and rely on the added damage from the extra strength and fox attacks, to make up for the lower damage on a low-magic-requirement weapon.

If you end up going with the heavy/arcane split, you'll also be able to withstand magic-type mobs easier than a pure melee. You will also have the option to sit back and let the pet do most of the work, as your higher magic attack will better facilitate keeping the pet alive. This would also enable you to stand somewhat far away, and keep the monster cursed, while limiting damage to yourself.

Foxform also gets to use the curses, primarily the one that causes +20% damage from all sources (physical and magical, unlike the purely physical bonus from Ironwood) - can't remember the name of it offhand.

Disadvantages of the foxform type builds are having to transform to use certain abilities, like the recovery spells, thorns, and speed. Also, since your stats may be split up more, your character could suffer in some areas.

However, IMO, this only applies to the pre-heaven/hell levels. Once you have the option, a heaven-type foxform build gets a couple extra large bonuses.

The first, is the melee mastery addition damage jumps up to +200%. With a decent weapon, this can bring your physical damage up considerably, as it's +80% higher than the level 10 of that skill.

Second, the life-drain attack goes to 100% drain probability with heaven types. While hell-types can steal more hp, they still have a chance of stealing none. Along these lines, the -accuracy attack gets a damage boost with the heaven-type, while it only gains a speed reduction via hell.

Third, the foxform transformation gets an addition boost to p.def and accuracy with heaven types. This adds damage, since you won't miss as often, and makes you take less, of course.

Fourth, your main curse allows even more extra damage to be dealt from all sources. Hell-types get a duration increase, which can help keep it on longer for things like boss fights, but at level 10, it already lasts for 20s, which is a fair while.

In comparison, the only real advantage that the pure melee form gets at high levels, is from Ironwood - and that may not exactly be an advantage. Yes, you can drop the p.def down to 0 with hell-type, but it only has a 20% chance to succeed. So, while you may deal a lot more when it does work, a majority of the time it will only be wasted mp.

A pure-melee type that chooses the hell side will get some other bonuses, comparatively. They still get the easier use of the recovery spells, and hell-types get a reduced cooldown, meaning you have an easier time keeping yourself healed. Thorns will also go form 60% to 75% returned damage, while the heaven form only gets an increased duration - which is somewhat useful for foxform, such that you don't have to transform as often (though you'd still need to if you wanted to keep speed on).

Overall, though, the foxform builds get much bigger bonuses at higher levels.

While this may make a big difference eventually, IMO, it'd be a better idea just to play how you like. Since the OP admitted to being a casual player, reaching the levels required to choose between the heaven/hell forms may not even really be a factor.

Sorry for the wall-O'-text~

Dinny - Heavens Tear

Aerifyre's wall is a nice, objective analysis weighing both the pros and cons. I am glad you took the time out of your day to provide us with such a detailed breakdown -- I'm sure it is greatly appreciated.

Ironwood Scarab is without a doubt the most useful spell to Melee Venos -- and in fact the only one. I would always open up with that move, and then equip my axes and dive in (I had my wand and axes easily accessible on the sidebar to switch). Rather than feeling limited, I see it as money well kept, as spells are expensive and anyway I have almost never seen any Veno use anything in combat other than spamming that poison scarab thing.

Also for those talking about Light Armor Foxes; just don't. While it will make you a good all-round tank, it seriously gimps your damage. Either be a pure-intish fox and be a solid mag tank with a nice PDEF boost in that form and rely on spells and your pet for damage (like this, you can also very effectively play as a normal veno as well!), or be a heavy armor, statting yourself -just- enough STR to wear heavy armor and pumping MAG the rest of the time. You need to pump dex quite a bit to wear light, and in foxform, dex is much less important that STR (melee hit) and MAG (the level of magic implement you can equip, effectiveness of magic attacks).

sarrafeline

aerifyre wrote: »

...

Sorry for the wall-O'-text~

Wow, excellent. Thanks for that, it makes a lot of sense. I currently have a robe veno, a heavy armor veno, a light armor veno, and a heavy armor fox form veno. Yeah, I got stuck on my main (robe) at level 53 and decided to try something new. ^_^;

I'm going to take a few things you said into consideration while I play from now on.

aerifyre

No problem for writing that up. A couple things to add that I thought up later:

At low levels, the pure-melee will probably be considerably stronger than a foxform veno. Mainly, this is due to the passive melee mastery - since you don't even get it until level 19, and even then the bonus probably wouldn't put your p.atk up quite as high as a normal melee weapon. You don't really start seeing the effects till the middle levels, when combined with the foxform attack damage.

Also, as Dinny pointed out, you would save a considerable amount of money by not having to level many skills. Ironwood Scarab, thorns, and the pet heal would be pretty much it until level 29, though most would grab foxform, and the hp recovery spell at 26. Even then, there's relatively few skills for a pure-melee type, so you'd be fairly loaded with money, which you could use to advance your pets faster - which would further add to your damage compared to the foxform types, until later levels.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

My question would be, what does the pure melee veno build get you over playing, say a blademaster?