Healing? Mana? Buffing? Mana? @_@

Myai - Heavens Tear
Myai - Heavens Tear Posts: 163 Arc User
edited January 2009 in Cleric
Well, everyone knows Clerics can heal, but they can use up all of their MP doing so! Venos get a skill that restores some MP, so why can't clerics get that skill? I'm a veno, but my sis is a Cleric, and she loves to help people, but her MP always dies, and then she can't defend herself, and she dies. I just don't get why Clerics can't get a skill like the Venos' Nature's Grace that restores MP.

I don't get why they didn't give the Clerics a skill like that, so can someone PLEASE explain to me why not? >_<
Post edited by Myai - Heavens Tear on
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Comments

  • Keyne - Heavens Tear
    Keyne - Heavens Tear Posts: 202 Arc User
    edited December 2008
    Um, we do. Its called Celestial Seal. It increases our mana and hp regen rate. Its a buff that we can give anyone. Personally I like using Focus Powder (50 mp/sec for 10 min). Its like blue crack for Clerics. Thats why trainging up ur Apoth is important.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Kelebek - Sanctuary
    Kelebek - Sanctuary Posts: 95 Arc User
    edited December 2008
    If we had an insta mana restore skill, we'd be uber inbalanced.

    Your sis need to control her mana better. She can use pots if on a boss and spam healing is needed.
  • Myai - Heavens Tear
    Myai - Heavens Tear Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited December 2008
    I know that there is that buff, but it's annoying to have to wait for it to charge up again, even when it's faster. And, yes, I have the highest apothecary skill i can have at this lvl, and I make her jade powders as soon as I have the herbs. And trust me, that's OFTEN. I stop for herbs every time I see them T_T. And she does manage, the problem is that her MP doesn't recover fast enough even with the buff. >_<
  • Warmaiden - Lost City
    Warmaiden - Lost City Posts: 81 Arc User
    edited December 2008
    ^^
    If I'm correct, the single buffs and the jade powder don't stack.
  • Ermosa - Heavens Tear
    Ermosa - Heavens Tear Posts: 292 Arc User
    edited December 2008
    she doesn't need to wait till she restore MP, there r pots and charms meant for using. now imagine what will happen if she stop heal tank at boss, everyone in party will die because she wants restore mp not use pots, that is dumb. I see this often, when i waste my charm with using barrage skill(400 MP per 3 seconds) while some wizzie or cleric just starts mediate to get MP back and while cleric mediate barbar spends tons oh HP of his MP charm
  • thewordlesssignature
    thewordlesssignature Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited December 2008
    Hmm, how exactly is she using her MP? Is she dying in FBs or is she dying while grinding? How are her stats?

    Its also possible that she isn't timing things right- sometimes I find myself able to survive because I cast my ironheart blessing a little early to balance the damage I take...

    How about other items? Life powders really help me and I use some Jade powders when I need it.

    But ask her about those first questions and perhaps we can figure out something from there. =D

    jaa,
    sano
  • Myai - Heavens Tear
    Myai - Heavens Tear Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited December 2008
    Well, jade powder does work when you have the MP and HP buff, btw. ^^ And she does use pots, and all of the jade powder she could possibly use. I buy her some of those Rejuvenation pots too, so that she can recover mana immediately, but they're expensive. And she's never just started to meditate at the worst time possible XD lol, she's smarter than that. And not everyone can get charms and have them on all the time, so that's also a bit of a problem. >_> But, i guess I'll just have to find more herbs mean time XD
  • thewordlesssignature
    thewordlesssignature Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited December 2008
    How are her stats looking? Maybe she can afford to put more points into vit. Is she dying while she's soloing monsters? Does she know how to kite? Is she getting 'interrupted' a lot? How is her attack pattern? ex. cyclone/ plume shot/ cyclone?

    Actually, is her problem dying, or MP recovery? Is the problem just having no MP and then dying?

    maybe we can find an answer if we know what she is doing with her Mana. Try ask her those questions. =D

    jaa,
    sano
  • Oishasan - Sanctuary
    Oishasan - Sanctuary Posts: 217 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    If we had a veno type transfusion skill, that would be an awesome help.

    But atm, it's all about managing your skills.

    Your sis is doing right with regen buff and jade powder, but I think the main issue is how she is fighting.
    If she is soloing using plume shield..
    well ok, this is the main problem.
    If she is a robe build and using plume shield, her mana is going to be eaten very quickly if she doesn't kill the mob fast.

    2 answers..

    1. learn to kite. Cyclone is a great kiting tool, thunder ball on pull (if FAC) cyclone, rinse repeat..sometimes you can plume shot it for final kill shot. metal beasts are much harder, and if you can't avoid them, try the next method..

    2. If you're more of a FSC (or better, a light armor build FSC) depending how hard the mob hits, rotate your ironheart heal into your damage spell rotation (i.e. pull with cyclone, plume, ironheart, cyclone, plume, ironheart, repeat..). You will not be kiting, you're going to stand and fight.
    If a mobs seems to be doing too much damage, cycle ironheart with either cyclone or plume, depending on what the mobs resists (non-, metal, wood, tank-class, etc..).
    Ironheart will protect you much better than Plume Shield and for less cost.

    Plume shield is a last resort tool, and shouldn't be used in grinding..it's more of a 'Oh ****!' button.

    If you were using these methods, and still having the mana problems..well..
    speaking as an FSC, yes, I am usually 50% to 75% mana capacity after each mob, and then I go meditate.
    For if a bad scenario happens (2+ mobs) I like to be able to take it on and win. But yes, it's a horrible class to play when it comes to mana efficiency (as an FSC soloing). FAC I hear do not have the same issues, and I assume they wouldn't since nuking isn't very mana intensive, the healing is.

    good luck, happy new year.
    Oishasan
    Light Armor build, Support Cleric

    Kenmei
    Barbarian, feral build

    amale
    Arcane Veno
    Beetle Wrangler
  • Klath - Sanctuary
    Klath - Sanctuary Posts: 437 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    http://www.ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php?pw=pwi

    Clerics, buffs and heals mainly, have the highest mana cost for skill than any other class, even wizards, which got higher mana pool. So you arent doing anything wrong, the game is designed so clerics have to be out of combat so they have a mana regen (otherwise you will drain yourself in half a minute).
    Depending on boss fight and tanker, you can sit between ironhearts, cast 2-3, sit, count 5 seconds, stand, repeat. This will allow your mana to actually go up once you hit high lvs.
    1. learn to kite. Cyclone is a great kiting tool, thunder ball on pull (if FAC) cyclone, rinse repeat..sometimes you can plume shot it for final kill shot. metal beasts are much harder, and if you can't avoid them, try the next method..
    Ignore what he said, kiting as cleric is stupid unless you are killing an elite/boss monster. You will benefit a lot more by heal+spam spells+heal then meditate. You arent a wizard or veno, you can HEAL yourself and quite fast.
  • Oishasan - Sanctuary
    Oishasan - Sanctuary Posts: 217 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    I wouldn't exactly ignore it..
    if you can kite the mob, each kill costs around 5% of your mana pool, vs the 25%-50% sitting there tanking does.

    but to each his own, though I would not personally knock down someone elses advice without any facts.

    Clerics are given the tools to be great kiters, and even have stuns if they choose to spec that way to improve the method. To say to ignore it, is well, pretty damn ignorant.

    Possibly you are new to MMORPGs and have never tried the method, or possibly something far worse.

    Also adding, because of the nature of kiting, you regen much more mana (especially with buffs) then not kiting.
    The only reason not to kite is if it's vs metal resistant mobs. Which you can still kite, but it's about the same mana efficiency as standing and healing through their onslaught. All depends on how many keys you want to press in the end.
    Oishasan
    Light Armor build, Support Cleric

    Kenmei
    Barbarian, feral build

    amale
    Arcane Veno
    Beetle Wrangler
  • Klath - Sanctuary
    Klath - Sanctuary Posts: 437 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    You just forget that kiting = more time on combat mode = more time with sucky mana regen = less mana pool = less xp per mana wasted.
    Plus, the already mentioned, more time to kill each mob, making your xp AND loot (thus income) over time suck.

    Cyclone = one attack per 5 seconds, assuming you are damn professional and actually can cast it that fast.
    Plume Shot = one attack per 3.5 seconds, note that this can be "chained", and cast twice between animations, reducing this time by roughly 0.5 seconds every 2 casts, but lets ignore it.

    Given 100 seconds attacking.
    Cyclones = 20 attacks
    Plume shot = 28 attacks

    "Dont evade, endure!".

    PS: Your attempts to insult a cleric 40 lvs higher than you is failing so far.
  • Oishasan - Sanctuary
    Oishasan - Sanctuary Posts: 217 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Well, lets start with the kiting.

    If you use cyclone, and refresh it during the kite as it wears off your target, you will be done in short work regardless.
    In the time you are running/kiting, you are regaining mana at a higher rate..try it, you might notice it. And you do not have to meditate, maybe once every 4 or 5 targets.
    Simply put..working as intended.

    If you try and compare it to the tanking method, you are constantly casting (no increased mana regen), and using heals, thus it is much less efficient, but sometimes needed.
    You also need to meditate after every encounter of this sort.


    As to wanting to get in to an E-Peen contest.

    /rant on /flame on

    This isn't my only PWI toon. I have been at the game for less than a month, have 2 level 29s on Lost City, but chose to play on Sanctuary, thus, a 39 veno and this cleric currently.

    In over 15 years of MMORPGs, I have more maxed out / end-game toons in virtually every MMORPG then you obviously have brain cells.
    So explain to me again how your 40 levels,
    (which I will gain in short order on 2 characters as a casual gamer, 1 account),
    is supposed to make you a superior player in any way?

    /flame off /rant off
    Oishasan
    Light Armor build, Support Cleric

    Kenmei
    Barbarian, feral build

    amale
    Arcane Veno
    Beetle Wrangler
  • Klath - Sanctuary
    Klath - Sanctuary Posts: 437 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    If you use cyclone, and refresh it during the kite as it wears off your target, you will be done in short work regardless.
    In the time you are running/kiting, you are regaining mana at a higher rate..try it, you might notice it. And you do not have to meditate, maybe once every 4 or 5 targets.
    Alright, you didnt grasp the concept of combat mode yet.

    Whenever you attack something, something attacks you (even if they hit or not), or you debuff something, you enter into a 10 seconds state called "combat mode", on which your hp AND mana regen is cut to 25%, meaning each 4 seconds on combat mode is equal to 1 second out of it.
    Thus, if you kite a mob, you will be on 1/4 mana regen for LONGER than if you killed it faster, as the state goes away after 10 seconds.
    It DOES NOT matter if you are casting, just being targeted and/or chased by a monster puts you into this 1/4 mp regen.

    Lets say you regen 40 mana per second, thats only 10 per second on combat mode. And 80 per second on meditation.

    So, the faster you kill a monster, more time you have to regain mana between monsters. And best solution here is kill the fastest possible, burn all your mana and then meditate for 1 minute.

    Lets say you need to kill a monster on 10 attacks, be either cyclone or plume shot (they do similar damage).

    You waste 50 seconds on combat mode to kill that monster using cyclone.
    While you waste 35 seconds on combat mode using plume shots.
    Note that you can even start with cyclone, giving you time to pre-heal and spam plume shots.
    Enduring gives you over 12 seconds of faster mana regen (discounting the time to cast a ironheart), and if you were in combat mode for those 10 seconds, you would have regenerated 3 seconds (12/4).

    This is obviously considering a melee monster, because you wont even kite mages and archers, will be plain useless. And also not considering the use of a charm, that will obviously say a big "**** you" to meditating and mana regen. Charms make grinding almost twice as fast (you trade money for xp). People will even stop looting coins to kill faster. Why you think they do that? Because they lack brain cells?




    PS: About your puny rant, i really could care less.
    So explain to me again how your 40 levels,
    (which I will gain in short order on 2 characters as a casual gamer, 1 account),
    is supposed to make you a superior player in any way?
    So you felt inferior about my level and thought i was saying i was a better player?

    40 lvs:
    = many more skills maxed/high level
    = many more AND different kind of monsters killed on MANY kind of ways you can imagine
    = my epenis is bigger than yours.
  • Mkto_cl - Heavens Tear
    Mkto_cl - Heavens Tear Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    well in my opinion i have 2 clerics and in one of them the mana drains out like crazy, almost 85% per mob, im lvl 49 right now and my mobs are about the same level.

    I always have use pots for mp, also i have found the pots area little tricky, if you attack one mob after another the regenerates rate decrease, but if you kill one and then wait 5-15 secs the regeneration of the mana gets back to normal, that way you can continue increasing 50, 100 mp per second, depends on the potion you are using. That way you don't need to stop and medite each time.

    another usefull way i founded is try to get or craft an armor that increase your mana regeneration rate. i know are hard to find and get but it helps a lot.

    Also each time you lvl up try to add more point to magic than to the other attributes, more magic means faster mana regeneration and powerfull attacks.

    i hope this helps and good luck

    "when i say you im refering to your sister"
  • Oishasan - Sanctuary
    Oishasan - Sanctuary Posts: 217 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Honestly Klath, you're an idiot.


    OP, try kiting with cyclone, and notice the difference in mana consumption, vs tanking a mob. You can time your 'safe' distance on cyclone on the refresh itself. You can also kite archers and casters, because cyclone and its refresh have a greater range than your target's casting/archery range.

    Keep track of the time it takes you to kill 10 mobs in both methods. (Including meditation)

    If you look at our tree, it is plain we have the ability to kite very well, and mana efficiently, which is the reason of this thread.

    Also it is good practice to learn how to do it, for in a TW, you really don't want to tank that blademaster.
    Oishasan
    Light Armor build, Support Cleric

    Kenmei
    Barbarian, feral build

    amale
    Arcane Veno
    Beetle Wrangler
  • Pynk - Sanctuary
    Pynk - Sanctuary Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    For us lower level clerics that have low hp... I'm going to give the kiting a try. I'll take less "loot" if it keeps me alive and keeps me from losing my exp. Now hopefully, I'll level up and not need to do that, but for noobies, I feel it's something valid to try.

    Sorry if I interupted a personal flame there. b:surrender
  • _WillFire_ - Sanctuary
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Well, everyone knows Clerics can heal, but they can use up all of their MP doing so! Venos get a skill that restores some MP, so why can't clerics get that skill? I'm a veno, but my sis is a Cleric, and she loves to help people, but her MP always dies, and then she can't defend herself, and she dies. I just don't get why Clerics can't get a skill like the Venos' Nature's Grace that restores MP.

    I don't get why they didn't give the Clerics a skill like that, so can someone PLEASE explain to me why not? >_<

    Clerics learn to use thier MP wisely. Efficiently. Tell her to get her Ironheart up into the 5+ and only use it when actually needed. This takes practice.

    Use pots.

    Use powders.

    If you are rich and don't care...use MP charms. Problem with these things is that they go off at 75% and burn very quickly. They should be at 50% like the HP charms...but that's a different arguement.

    If you think mp use is high now wait til she gets Blue/Red bubble. b:cry
    Mark 12:29-37
    _WillFire_ 8x Combat Medic
  • howdositfeel
    howdositfeel Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    this is going to be fun.. first time playing this game hope i do good ion heals .. i'm a world of warcraft junky. i have a lvl 80 Holy Paladin. this will be fun..lol..i hope..
    [SIGPIC] [/SIGPIC] b:bye
  • Clandore - Lost City
    Clandore - Lost City Posts: 180 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    To be honest, I think in most situations a well-trained cleric simply shouldn't have to kite mobs, meaning that their int should be kept at a level where they can 2-3 shot most mobs. Of course, as you lvl you will encounter mobs with different properties and you learn to use different skills combos (over the classic cyclone-plume-plume and repeat if you haven't killed your mob with those 3). There will be a few mobs now and then that require some ingenuity, and you may find that you will need to spark and plume after all if you want to grind alone.

    Even with good mana regen and high int, however, eventually you will find that some mobs take ~1k mp to kill, and don't we all appreciate the our expensive spirit charms (that stupidly ticks at 75% instead of 50% as someone mentioned).

    But at lower levels I have never found OM to be a big problem once I throw in pots and powders (which were surprisingly affordable, if I recollect correctly). If OM while grinding is the problem, check the cleric's stats build - instead of putting more pts into vit you might want to see if you need more int to grind more efficiently. And if she is OMs while healing in a party... again she may simply need more mana. If she is flying about, just a reminder that elf wings over eagle wings consumes mana.
  • Myai - Heavens Tear
    Myai - Heavens Tear Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Well, I just read one whole pages worth of those tips/rants/arguments and I just have ONE question. What is kiting? XD Sorry, but my main is a veno and I care to use her more than my lvl 17 cleric since I have my sister as a cleric. If I knew what kiting was, I think I'd be able to properly explain this all to my sis. b:chuckle Thank you for all the help, she will thank you all, but she doesn't post in the forums, so I'm thanking you all now for her.
  • Klath - Sanctuary
    Klath - Sanctuary Posts: 437 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Kiting is attacking a monster and running away from him before he can hit you. Either to kill him slowly but safely or to keep him busy.
    Examples:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvQAdaICNws
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMteJFoLAZ0
  • Djinny - Sanctuary
    Djinny - Sanctuary Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    OK, I'm just a level 21 Cleric, but I have to say that in my experience so far kiting monsters has been far faster than tanking them.

    I find that by kiting, I can pick a monster to kill and then kite it towards another monster. When the first one dies, I can immediately start killing the next one.

    Then, once I've killed 8-9 monsters and run out my mana, I can have one long uninterrupted meditation session. This is more efficient than stopping multiple times.

    But again, I'm only level 21, so this may only work at lower levels. Maybe tanking really is better at higher levels, but certainly for now if kiting is "stupid", then I guess I'm an idiot.
  • Ramuz - Lost City
    Ramuz - Lost City Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    In my Experiance as Cleric, I found that Mana is a very valuable comodity, which must be conserved. In my opinion, the way you conserve your mp is not something that someone can show you how to do, its something you have to figure out on your own. Remember that everyone has a strategy, whether its spending a heck of a lot of cash on Spirit charms or managing your potions and what-not.

    There have been many times I have died because I ran out of Mana, all I can say is choose your spells wisely, use the spels that consume the least amount of mana when you can get by with it.
  • CatGirll - Sanctuary
    CatGirll - Sanctuary Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    my cleric was lvl 14 when i deleted her because of her mana problem,i'm not telling you to do that but i just didn't have the patience for all that ****(so i started veno ^^)

    anough abt me, f u'r sisters problem is that she dies so often in a party then i have a simple idea that might work: fly

    mana recovery goes slower but u'r safe, and if the monster goes away just land and go back to healing tanking partymember

    this worked pretty well when i tried it when i was in a party

    for the mana problem i can't give you anny tips, srry =/
  • turonga
    turonga Posts: 58 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    The way I used my cleric in other games was to study my team's hp and look at the capacity of my heal then I know when the hp gets to a certain point I can heal. Not like most who spam it and waste the mp fast.
  • xlovex
    xlovex Posts: 152 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    a cleric shouldn't run out of mp fast at all.

    if you don't ever attack with your cleric, your heals will never trigger "combat stance" where your mp regen is quartered.

    even at lvl 30-40 you already have something like a 20 mp per sec tick.

    that should be more than enough to stack ironhearts (every 1 or 2 seconds) and, if your tank is properly geared, should be fine.
  • Granz - Heavens Tear
    Granz - Heavens Tear Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    Well, i'm not sure about whether tanking or kiting is better....

    but for mobs.....i jus kill them before they get close enough to do dmg....

    for healing ppl.... ah.....well....

    (either way...i'm cant really answer this....cuz i'm one of those ppl who always have a charm on..... XD)

    well......either way.....if your sister wants a charm i'll give her one.... XD
  • Nelae - Heavens Tear
    Nelae - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,490 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    If clerics could recharge their mp fast, it would be the ultimate class.
    High dmg, best heals, fast mp recover = gods
    b:dirty
  • tweenskeet
    tweenskeet Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited January 2009
    I hope she has a proper MAG amount, which would make this forum easier to explain.

    Being LA might prompt less MP Regen then the VIT Arcane or Full MAG builds, so if possible, consider going those routes if you have issues in Regen still.

    With what you've stated, Focus Powders should really do the trick. Maybe she's casting the wrong spells too much, or not measuring time between heals properly. I'm referring to Ironheart's Blessing, in that you don't need to spam it, but keep it on enough to stack it, with a 1-2 second window between completed cooldown and cast. Also knowing when to use Wellspring Surge, if it's leveled up, when your target's HP doesn't seem to need the Ironheart's stacking.

    In terms of attacking, from personal experience, attacking mobs with Great Cyclone and Plume Shot at their maxed possible levels allows me to kill within a few attacks, 2-4 depending on circumstance. Kiting in the form of gathering and killing off one at a time would be much more efficient when done properly, in that your regerative cycle occurs after the killing, all in one sit down.

    Not playing too many of the other classes, I can't personally compare the MP consumption, but from what I know, Clerics expend a butt-load of MP in both fighting and healing.. so you'll love Celestial Guardian's Seal, Focus Powders, and adequate Mana Potions.

    Hope this helped. <3