BH Changes (Celestial Content Update)

bakujirou

Right, so how does everyone feel about it?
The Celestial's update has changed the Bounty Hunter 1 (100+) from the much easier Snakefist Guardian (WS), Mushi (FSP), Ghostwing (EU) and Aurogon (AEU) to the notably more difficult and (somewhat) less run Lord of Paradise (UP), Lord of Disaster (IBU 10), Natya Veda (DH) while keeping Mushi around. I assume this was done to incentivize people who reach 100 to try those harder instances more for the daily rewards, but I know there's no shortage of people with alts who aren't able to get to meet such instanced squad's demands to join those or survive the harder instances as easily as their mains (or even enjoy running those places off of 2x generally) - nevermind the advanced BH going into the new instance and TTR

kitty2828#7043

I don't like this at all!

I know plenty of mains who can't get into anything past fs, let alone survive. Also, it removes one of the ways newbies could generate coins to learn skills. At least with bh aeu and eu you could gain 500k silver and a potential book to your collection. If it was a duplicate you could also sell it to get coins to learn one of the skills. Now morai skills cost 10mil? How are new players supposed to get that amount of silver for every morai skill?

octaslasher

I don't like this at all!

There are many issue with the changes to bh100 in this patch (not the only issue in this patch).
Indeed as bakujirou points out, I also think that these changes are to incentivize doing the newer instances although the implementation is heavily flawed.

First of all the current list only has dungeons that require you to be at least rb1 100 (FSP) the rest all have higher level and sky level requirements. This means that a fresh lvl100 player (or even an alt) does not have any bh100 he/she can join which is a fundamentally flawed design choice. Not only do you now have 1 less exp instance you can do to help you level, you also now do not have a coin income (silver) to allow you to cover basic costs (the main one being gear repair). There are no other sources of silver income past Jones anymore so from level 81 on wards players have no way of making enough silver to self sustain. Killing mobs for coin and drops is not feasible as you will not make more than you would need just for repairs alone. Insult to injury the reward for bh100 has also been lowered to 150-200k. that number is basically the repair cost for a barbarian doing lets say 2 runs of phoenix valley or 1 run of QSM. It's also the number you would need to repair just the daggers after killing your maximum quota of vitae mobs for the day. All of this ignores the cost of teleporting, and other npc costs to for example learn skills as kitty2828 pointed out, buy/upgrade 101 morai gear or g16 which is crucial for a player at lvl 100, imbue gems into gear, open Lunar (3 million silver per run) or any other npc costs for that matter.

The difficulty of the dungeons is not a problem, the changes needed are just making sure that if you are lvl 100 non rb/rb1 there is a different set of dungeons which you can enter for bh100. I say that the difficulty of the dungeons is not a problem because the 'requirement' set by players is in most cases simply outlandish and not needed. That is a separate problem which stems from the mentality of not working as a team in a party, trying to skip dungeon mechanics at every turn no matter how simple it is and trying to solve everything with just damage. On the contrary now that those 'harder' instances are bh100 for everyone there would be less of an excuse to exclude basic geared people for going in especially with the overall population of the game not being that high people will have no choice but to relearn how to properly run dungeons as a coherent group to get a bh done.

With the removal of the skill books and the EU and AEU dungeon from the bh list there is also another issue that comes up. With these changes these two instances have received a heavy blow to their relevance. Apart from herb pots and lvl 100 morai gear there are no suitable rewards anymore for these two dungeons and this will cause players to hardly run them anymore which is a shame. (not to mention AEU is to this day is still bugged and should be fixed so the mechanics work properly again). These two instances together with WS and TT3-x could be set as bh100 for non-rb and rb1 players.

As for the current list, while it is suitable for rb2 players the rewards should in my opinion still be increased back to the 500k silver to at least provide a more reliable source of income for basic self sustain of any given character.

A final unrelated note: the need for books is gone but they are still in the cs shop, so kindly remove that asap. also I hope anyone that bought the books just recently can either get a full refund or they should make it that if you have the book you can learn the skill free of silver charge and phase out the books like that cause otherwise its a scum move to remove books with an update without prior warnings.

bakujirou

octaslasher wrote: »

First of all the current list only has dungeons that require you to be at least rb1 100 (FSP) the rest all have higher level and sky level requirements. This means that a fresh lvl100 player (or even an alt) does not have any bh100 he/she can join which is a fundamentally flawed design choice. Not only do you now have 1 less exp instance you can do to help you level, you also now do not have a coin income (silver) to allow you to cover basic costs (the main one being gear repair). There are no other sources of silver income past Jones anymore so from level 81 on wards players have no way of making enough silver to self sustain. Killing mobs for coin and drops is not feasible as you will not make more than you would need just for repairs alone. Insult to injury the reward for bh100 has also been lowered to 150-200k. that number is basically the repair cost for a barbarian doing lets say 2 runs of phoenix valley or 1 run of QSM. It's also the number you would need to repair just the daggers after killing your maximum quota of vitae mobs for the day. All of this ignores the cost of teleporting, and other npc costs to for example learn skills as kitty2828 pointed out, buy/upgrade 101 morai gear or g16 which is crucial for a player at lvl 100, imbue gems into gear, open Lunar (3 million silver per run) or any other npc costs for that matter.

Yeah, this is a really big problem. I'm assuming their idea is that you'll reawaken as soon as you hit 100 to continue the RA course while still getting JoJ dailies or the idea of lv 100+ non-RA didn't even come to mind when they did this

The difficulty of the dungeons is not a problem, the changes needed are just making sure that if you are lvl 100 non rb/rb1 there is a different set of dungeons which you can enter for bh100.

This would be ideal. I hope they actually do something like this.

I say that the difficulty of the dungeons is not a problem because the 'requirement' set by players is in most cases simply outlandish and not needed. That is a separate problem which stems from the mentality of not working as a team in a party, trying to skip dungeon mechanics at every turn no matter how simple it is and trying to solve everything with just damage. On the contrary now that those 'harder' instances are bh100 for everyone there would be less of an excuse to exclude basic geared people for going in especially with the overall population of the game not being that high people will have no choice but to relearn how to properly run dungeons as a coherent group to get a bh done.

This is a long standing issue and honestly with how small the playerbase is, I dont think people will change or adapt even now. At most, you might have factions do more daily runs among their members if they have the ability to carry them that way, but I've seen people be straight up unable or unwilling to do mechanics in simpler dungeons like AEU when formed outside of such groups. I question whether they'll bother to learn harder ones like this. As usual, those who ask outside of their circle will keep asking for top end weapons as some sort of competency test because they just want to idiot-proof the run, even for something as simple as BHs.

With the removal of the skill books and the EU and AEU dungeon from the bh list there is also another issue that comes up. With these changes these two instances have received a heavy blow to their relevance. Apart from herb pots and lvl 100 morai gear there are no suitable rewards anymore for these two dungeons and this will cause players to hardly run them anymore which is a shame. (not to mention AEU is to this day is still bugged and should be fixed so the mechanics work properly again). These two instances together with WS and TT3-x could be set as bh100 for non-rb and rb1 players.

I agree. I really dislike it when an instance falls out of use, so still allowing it as a BH for some (and fixing AEU) would be the best possible outcome

And yeah, what they did with the books was unfair. Though small, there was still a market for the rarer ones. Its nice you could learn skills without them now but I'd have liked to keep them around so you could learn them for free if you had the book or something - especially with the ludicrous skill cost of the morai ones now.

chipsr01#2846

I don't like this at all!

I never did any of the old BH quests but I liked the worldchat where people wanted BH SNAK and BH SNACK. Last one always made me hungry.

obielle

chipsr01#2846 wrote: »

I never did any of the old BH quests but I liked the worldchat where people wanted BH SNAK and BH SNACK. Last one always made me hungry.

This reminds me of a guy that was in a faction with me once who would call the boss sneakfish. Definitely the most unique version of the boss's name that I've seen.

only0newish

I don't like this at all!

octaslasher wrote: »

There are many issue with the changes to bh100 in this patch (not the only issue in this patch).
Indeed as bakujirou points out, I also think that these changes are to incentivize doing the newer instances although the implementation is heavily flawed.

First of all the current list only has dungeons that require you to be at least rb1 100 (FSP) the rest all have higher level and sky level requirements. This means that a fresh lvl100 player (or even an alt) does not have any bh100 he/she can join which is a fundamentally flawed design choice. Not only do you now have 1 less exp instance you can do to help you level, you also now do not have a coin income (silver) to allow you to cover basic costs (the main one being gear repair). There are no other sources of silver income past Jones anymore so from level 81 on wards players have no way of making enough silver to self sustain. Killing mobs for coin and drops is not feasible as you will not make more than you would need just for repairs alone. Insult to injury the reward for bh100 has also been lowered to 150-200k. that number is basically the repair cost for a barbarian doing lets say 2 runs of phoenix valley or 1 run of QSM. It's also the number you would need to repair just the daggers after killing your maximum quota of vitae mobs for the day. All of this ignores the cost of teleporting, and other npc costs to for example learn skills as kitty2828 pointed out, buy/upgrade 101 morai gear or g16 which is crucial for a player at lvl 100, imbue gems into gear, open Lunar (3 million silver per run) or any other npc costs for that matter.

The difficulty of the dungeons is not a problem, the changes needed are just making sure that if you are lvl 100 non rb/rb1 there is a different set of dungeons which you can enter for bh100. I say that the difficulty of the dungeons is not a problem because the 'requirement' set by players is in most cases simply outlandish and not needed. That is a separate problem which stems from the mentality of not working as a team in a party, trying to skip dungeon mechanics at every turn no matter how simple it is and trying to solve everything with just damage. On the contrary now that those 'harder' instances are bh100 for everyone there would be less of an excuse to exclude basic geared people for going in especially with the overall population of the game not being that high people will have no choice but to relearn how to properly run dungeons as a coherent group to get a bh done.

With the removal of the skill books and the EU and AEU dungeon from the bh list there is also another issue that comes up. With these changes these two instances have received a heavy blow to their relevance. Apart from herb pots and lvl 100 morai gear there are no suitable rewards anymore for these two dungeons and this will cause players to hardly run them anymore which is a shame. (not to mention AEU is to this day is still bugged and should be fixed so the mechanics work properly again). These two instances together with WS and TT3-x could be set as bh100 for non-rb and rb1 players.

As for the current list, while it is suitable for rb2 players the rewards should in my opinion still be increased back to the 500k silver to at least provide a more reliable source of income for basic self sustain of any given character.

A final unrelated note: the need for books is gone but they are still in the cs shop, so kindly remove that asap. also I hope anyone that bought the books just recently can either get a full refund or they should make it that if you have the book you can learn the skill free of silver charge and phase out the books like that cause otherwise its a scum move to remove books with an update without prior warnings.

I agree with this post. I'ld also like to add a suggestion to make the skill books either be transmuted for some lowbie junk or to be given some coins value to be sold out. But of course why would the devs give us coins... or work on the transmute npc even more, when they can just leave a ton of useless items hanging in everyone's inventories. Books which were worth millions are now useless. It's such a waste.

With this patch there is just no income for the low lvl players. No, gathering herbs all day is not an income. Please pwi dont pretend like there is anything they can do to gain coins. Feels like they just want to force people to cash shop and milk the game as much as possible before they close it. It's bad enough people world wide are facing poverty this year, they have to relive that feeling in pwi as well. Who'ld want to play if they cant even repair their gears? In Dawnglory, the facs i've been in, refuse to put any fac funds in the fac blacksmith to reduce the repairs fees for their members because they like to hand pick who to give temp charms to. Great, so the very limited funds for repairs even at max are even smaller now even for the very active facs, there is no hope they'll help with that. Being carried is boring and raises people to have the mind set they need gear or to know someone op instead of trying to do a dungeon by themselves. People dont like to learn mechanics, i've tried over the years and it's always the same story. Most would rather fall behind than to put an effort and learn something new and remember it... till the next day always having to tell people what to do because they forget or werent explained. The other players who are used to the dungeon, rushing to get it done, so the new players dont have the time to actually learn the mechanics or even look at the boss longer than few seconds to remember it.

Some game we got here, guys! Returning players used to have something to go back to - those lower bh dungeons were the one thing they vaguely remembered. Right now it's all new dungeons, all too hard for them. Ofc most of them end up quitting again, since they get overwhelmed by all the new things and how weak their toons are compared to everyone else and the difficulty of the new dungeons.

The population of the game is getting smaller and smaller and they just killed any hope for new players or returning players to renew the playerbase. On Tideswell, we never see any TTR squads being formed, or the new dungeon? Nope, noone is even trying it out for fun.
It's nice they are giving pack which can give S card, but the C-S packs give nothing. I've opened so many and never got an S card, so it's basicly useless. Practictly speaking, that S pack is not relavant change, not going to make any difference. The 1 free A pack from normal BH is slightly better but people can get A packs from other places as well. I rather get 500k and no A pack from BH than to get 150k and A pack from BH.

May be if we could pick between money and items as a reward from BH / MBH it would be ideal?