Archer class dead?

jsxshadow

@saxroll I still like to object. For LA/AA going from (assuming full +10 cause only gears have been +10 in my example, ornaments+12 already) +10 to +12 gears is not that much HP. With passive thats roughly 3.5k HP for AA and 4.7-ish k as LA (assuming G16 helm/robe). Considering 10k crits per hit from the archer on the AA target thats roughly 1/3 of a hit and 1/6 of a hit lower chance for charm bypass. that is literally nothing. Sure, it can end up keeping someone alive but in the bigger picture it's completely negligible if it's just refine.

Granted, if you take into account ornaments from +10 to +12 as well + better glyphs than yeah, some def might be gained. However, all in all it might stay the same defensive wise if we compare deity vs josd instead of vit vs drakes. Still 10k-ish crits per hit will result in alot of chances to charmbypass the enemy as an archer. The only downside for the archer is that he will deal a bit less metal damage since josd obviously help vs any sort of damage, drakes don't.

The archer will be slightly squishier (depending on if the archer gets a more defensive chart, better glyphs, etc) assuming that the SB will also gain more damage...it should overall stay the same, especially since the Archer can also gain more damage aside of just adding deity.

If both would go josd (in archer vs sb case) then the archer would be at a massive disadvantage since the power to put pressure on the target would vanish or shrink down so significantly that he can find himself unable to kill the target. This is true for most classes. They can combo you, debuff you and no matter your shards -> you die if they get you. Hence deity is the only reliable sharding for archer as it offers the chance to kill before being killed. Just saying.

betuou

I play archer as main and been doing so since I started playing the game and even with my limited pvp experience i can say that the class is one of the worst if not the worst in 1 vs 1.In mass PVP it can do alright with proper team back up but even there it gets out shined easily by other classes.
People can say as many times as they want that it depends on how do you play your class or how smart you are and what not bottom line is that with equal gear and player skill archers loose to any other class simply because archer skills,defences and damage are too weak.
Why do archers need to invest so much? +12 deity NP GOF g17 its because they need it to be a factor in any PVP situation.Other classes dont need all that to be a major threat or do well.I dont know how the archer class does in PW China but this aint PW China things are different here shouldnt we get at least some adjustments?

I've seen people calling archers a support class.If thats true then we must be the dumbest support class in any game ever.Our buff is useless.Movement speed?come on...Evasion?please...I've never seen anyone in a squad complaining about not having that buff.What else do we do as a support? Stun people and be annoying?Or distract people and be target practice to keep people busy and..die?Im pretty sure archers weren't meant to be a support class when they designed it.

Even in the PVE aspect of the game who ever looks for a archer?Maybe the occasional usage of BV when all the BM's are on strike.I know its the same for other classes as well but archers bring nothing essential to the table everything we do can be done by another class better.

Here's how I see things.Tanks have high phy defence they can take hits last long in a fight they have good squad buffs and hit pretty good ..they usefull. Casters have high magic defence they hit hard..they have good squad buffs they can heal..they usefull.And then we have the light armor classes out of which 2 are OP and broken(guess who)...and the archers...what do we have?Evasion...

Archers need a rework in order to survive.There are people like me who love to play the class who dont want to reroll.No need to make them OP or broken just enough to be on pair with the other classes.

jsxshadow

As for this topic I recorded a great example how "weak" (not) the Archer class is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVrYyOBPZNg

Gear is approx equal. I got better cards 3x more refine Levels but she got a better chart and Glyphs. So overall pretty equal.

I have to admit that I made tons of mistakes in the first few fights since it was the first time PvPing with the new glyphs and the first time in roughly 4 months as well. The veno isnt a noob and the class itself is not the easiest to handle for an Archer due to massive chi burn, purge and loads of CC. One Para Nova on me without genie ready and I nearly always die. kitashi prolly is one of the best venos in the game so you can't say I just outplayed her in any regard. Sure, purify spell is ridiculously annoying for an archer but it doesn't make it impossible to win.

Sure, I didn't win any fight but that shouldn't be the goal for an Archer.

My point still stands. Archer are not that weak.

goldfinch47

No Wizard main for jsxshadow?

jsxshadow

goldfinch47 wrote: »

No Wizard main for jsxshadow?

Nope xD I got trouble keeping up with my 7 chars as it is already..any more chars and I'm going to die. I'D love to play wizard tho but if I'd really want to I could go on another server I guess.

shopcheese

Go to TT and make all those noob people learn a lesson, so many annoying people.
If you can beat them of course. I personally struggle with my 600 ping vs 50 ping people.

betuou

jsxshadow wrote: »

Sure, I didn't win any fight but that shouldn't be the goal for an Archer.

Care to explain why?

Archers are annoying in pvp because they can purge.Kinda funny for a class to be ''feared'' for its weapon's proc alone.In order to get that people need to be r9 which isnt the cheapest thing to get unless you can settle for a tier2 bow but then you wont even tickle other people.And purge is not archer exclusive.How about some basic skills for archers that can have a bigger impact?What utility does a g16/tier 3 archer bring in mass pvp?Where this class is supposed to do well.Other classes can still be usefull even with lesser gear they can buff at least or heal or even pose a threat because their skills allows them to.Archers need more utility, better self and squad buffs since the DD role is unclear.

keihan007#7641

jsxshadow wrote: »

As for this topic I recorded a great example how "weak" (not) the Archer class is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVrYyOBPZNg

Gear is approx equal. I got better cards 3x more refine Levels but she got a better chart and Glyphs. So overall pretty equal.

I have to admit that I made tons of mistakes in the first few fights since it was the first time PvPing with the new glyphs and the first time in roughly 4 months as well. The veno isnt a noob and the class itself is not the easiest to handle for an Archer due to massive chi burn, purge and loads of CC. One Para Nova on me without genie ready and I nearly always die. kitashi prolly is one of the best venos in the game so you can't say I just outplayed her in any regard. Sure, purify spell is ridiculously annoying for an archer but it doesn't make it impossible to win.

Sure, I didn't win any fight but that shouldn't be the goal for an Archer.

My point still stands. Archer are not that weak.

That video basically proves every single point I made in this thread. You struggle to kill her or even put real pressure on her at times despite not being at gear level where the real struggles begin. You use class specific genies, which is something most people really cant do as they really dont care that much bout friendly 1vs1s, which are a small minority of PvP in this game anyways. Things like nullify poison just has no place in general genie, which is what most ppl will be stuck on when they are PKing.

jsxshadow

@saxroll Nullify is pretty good. I've seen people with HoS/SoF for mass pvp but I'd rather use HoS/Nullify since it really does help alot if there are loads of venos around.

Yeah, I struggle to put pressure on because it's a caster and her weapon was very proc friendly that day. I have alot less issues vs equally geared BMs and seekwr since I can be sure that my combos will go through if genie is on CD. Archer isnt the only cöass that struggles vs caster. Mostly caster themselves struggle the hardest vs other caster.

I agree to the point that any other class can be alot more effective in Mass-PvP due to having more CC/Debuffs or a special skill that can help regardless of gears. However, dont expect low-geared Seeker, Barbs, Wizards and Psys to be much better off. Especially Psys are even worse off on low gears since they are practically useless and die from just batting an eye.

@betuou You see, Vana G15 bows with Spirit Blackhole are nearly free and achievable for anyone. If you really purely play the ranged Purge game with the occasional BV, Stun, Freeze, Metal debuff and EA support thrown into the mix you can indeed be very effective as an Archer, even on lower gears. Sure, you die alot but you can help to get people killed if you got enough people to support. If you expect to deal alot of damage on lower gears than I gotta tell you that only SBs with their ulti can deal decent damage even with garbage gears.

setexample

Without being negative all I am going to say is thank you for proving all the archers concerns including mine, (let’s not make this long and discuss what the concerns are, we all know by now). So I am pretty sure, most who play this class will agree with me now that this class needs some rework or some new skills maybe, to help them achieve the potential damage output, or even some new skills to help them survive/counter all the new skills/updates. Also It would be nice if they gave archers something unique just for the daily grind make this class useful in squads.

PWI China already decided to hit this class with another nerf soon, it is just absurd, just as this class finally got something meaningful. I mean what are they even thinking, what is their goal for this class, do they just want archers to walk around with R9000000000 and do nothing?

If people who play this class do not express their concerns and just keep taking bs updates year after year nothing will ever change.

Finally I thank those who have taken some time to participate in this discussion (even jo). I am sure pwi staff will see this and make some improvements sooner or later. I urge all archers to always speak up and let pwi know, only way to make a difference if you wish for change.

setexample

Without being negative all I am going to say is thank you for proving all the archers concerns including mine, (let’s not make this long and discuss what the concerns are, we all know by now). So I am pretty sure, most who play this class will agree with me now that this class needs some rework or some new skills maybe, to help them achieve the potential damage output, or even some new skills to help them survive/counter all the new skills/updates. Also it would be nice if they added something unique for this class just for the daily grind, help them be useful in squads.

PWI China already decided to hit this class with another nerf soon, it is just absurd, just as this class finally got something meaningful. I mean what are they even thinking, what is their goal for this class, do they just want archers to walk around with R9000000000 and do nothing?

If people who play this class do not express their concerns and just keep taking bs updates year after year for this class nothing will ever change.

Finally I thank those who have taken some time to participate in this discussion (even jo). I am sure pwi staff will see this and make some improvements sooner or later. I urge all archers to always speak up and let pwi know, only way to make a difference if you wish for change.

jsxshadow

Got another nice vid showing how "weak" Archer are. (the few times I died I did so because I am stupid and misjudged the situation):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as5FWxkuMkA

@setexample I can still only keep on riding the same thoughts I always had. In Mass-PvP you have Purge. Nearly no other class can kill a max buffed target alone on equal gears (yeah we know sins are broken so ignore them for now please). Purge is what gets them killed and thus Archer already got quite the power, especially since ranged purged is alot less likely to be avoided.

Then you have Ranged CC (Seal, Stun, Freeze), Metal Debuffs, BV. You also have a very nice knockback, plenty of Anti-Stun skills (no class has anti-paralyze) and the damage isnt significantly lower compared to other classes on equal gears. That is the reason why CN won't buff archer that much anymore.

As for 1v1. IF they would give archer any shenanigans like Paralyze...Caster wouldn't even need to try to 1v1 an Archer anymore cause they would have no chance anyways. Archer are not the most OP class. However, they are very delicate. Any boost in whichever regard could completely break the class. Granted, they broke sins too and they don't care a single bit...but just cause sins are broken doesnt mean archer need to be broken as well.

PS: I recently had some 1v1 vs a deity archer on my Barb. Holy moly. 20k+ crits just with metal debuff + metal skills is no joke. Had to struggle just to survive. Sure, he outgeared my barb by quite a bit but even if I was full josd, if he uses BV and sparks in any form or fashion I can still get one-combo'ed if HoS is in CD. If he had a GoF Bow I wouldn't even need to bother fighting him at all. 40k zc...GG WP.

kokoot

jsxshadow wrote: »

Got another nice vid showing how "weak" Archer are. (the few times I died I did so because I am stupid and misjudged the situation):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as5FWxkuMkA

@setexample I can still only keep on riding the same thoughts I always had. In Mass-PvP you have Purge. Nearly no other class can kill a max buffed target alone on equal gears (yeah we know sins are broken so ignore them for now please). Purge is what gets them killed and thus Archer already got quite the power, especially since ranged purged is alot less likely to be avoided.

Then you have Ranged CC (Seal, Stun, Freeze), Metal Debuffs, BV. You also have a very nice knockback, plenty of Anti-Stun skills (no class has anti-paralyze) and the damage isnt significantly lower compared to other classes on equal gears. That is the reason why CN won't buff archer that much anymore.

As for 1v1. IF they would give archer any shenanigans like Paralyze...Caster wouldn't even need to try to 1v1 an Archer anymore cause they would have no chance anyways. Archer are not the most OP class. However, they are very delicate. Any boost in whichever regard could completely break the class. Granted, they broke sins too and they don't care a single bit...but just cause sins are broken doesnt mean archer need to be broken as well.

PS: I recently had some 1v1 vs a deity archer on my Barb. Holy moly. 20k+ crits just with metal debuff + metal skills is no joke. Had to struggle just to survive. Sure, he outgeared my barb by quite a bit but even if I was full josd, if he uses BV and sparks in any form or fashion I can still get one-combo'ed if HoS is in CD. If he had a GoF Bow I wouldn't even need to bother fighting him at all. 40k zc...GG WP.

And what about most cases when you face average geared archer . he will hit you for 2000 dmg max and thats all. Your charm wont even tick and talking about killing you its nonsense. Its impossible.

cosmosia1989

@kokoot gear imabalance doesnt matter. Any class that gets significantly outgeared will deal alot less damage than they would on equal terms. That is normal xD

Try killing an endgame josd barb with a g16 sin or duskblade. Impossible. Hence it doesnt matter.

elcocot

cosmosia1989 wrote: »

@kokoot gear imabalance doesnt matter. Any class that gets significantly outgeared will deal alot less damage than they would on equal terms. That is normal xD

Try killing an endgame josd barb with a g16 sin or duskblade. Impossible. Hence it doesnt matter.

LOL and what about killing decent barb with decent archer. dont even bother. must be very OP archer decent barb to do some dmg. op archer vs op barb also little chances

cosmosia1989

elcocot wrote: »

cosmosia1989 wrote: »

@kokoot gear imabalance doesnt matter. Any class that gets significantly outgeared will deal alot less damage than they would on equal terms. That is normal xD

Try killing an endgame josd barb with a g16 sin or duskblade. Impossible. Hence it doesnt matter.

LOL and what about killing decent barb with decent archer. dont even bother. must be very OP archer decent barb to do some dmg. op archer vs op barb also little chances

I elaborated on that before. These days it massively depends how each is spec'ed.

If you take a full josd barb vs a full josd Archer or just both more spec'ed towards survival-power than ofc the archer will have a hard time beating the barb. The longer a fight lasts the harder it gets for archer.

However, if you take a max damage spec'ed barb vs a damage spec'ed archer then the archer will have a very good chance of winning. Endgame deity archer can hit deity barbs for 20k crits per metal skill with just the regular metal debuff. That's insane damage. Be josd archer vs josd barb and you can be happy to hit 10k crits whilst the barb can still oneshot you with his Arma/debuff combo and so on.

I cannot push this enough: If you play an Archer go for AS MUCH DAMAGE AS POSSIBLE and then you will realize that the class is alot of fun and can be very competitive. Josd Archer is pointless cause debuffs and mechanics will get you killed no matter how tanky you are in base. Damage, damage and even more damage please.

keihan007#7641

elcocot wrote: »

LOL and what about killing decent barb with decent archer. dont even bother. must be very OP archer decent barb to do some dmg. op archer vs op barb also little chances

I actually killed a +12 vit stone barb recently in 1vs1. I am only 2 piece deity still, I do have 20 aptitude chart however so I`d say I am close enough to average deity 15 aptitude chart archer not to matter. I`d say it really depends on the barb, if the barb is good enough/has godlike para rng, archer really just cant win, you need to land so much in order to drop the barb. Meanwhile the barb can drop you in one combo if they get lucky once.

As long as the barb stays on offensive and the gear gap isnt massive for the side of archer, barb should be winning it. In my match the barb started to get scared of those metal combos and started playing more passively, which was by far their biggest mistake. I managed to capitalize on that after a while and drop the barb but it wasnt exactly easy. Had they kept pressuring me, I would of not had the opportunity to go on the offensive to drop them.

cosmosia1989

saxroll wrote: »

elcocot wrote: »

LOL and what about killing decent barb with decent archer. dont even bother. must be very OP archer decent barb to do some dmg. op archer vs op barb also little chances

I actually killed a +12 vit stone barb recently in 1vs1. I am only 2 piece deity still, I do have 20 aptitude chart however so I`d say I am close enough to average deity 15 aptitude chart archer not to matter. I`d say it really depends on the barb, if the barb is good enough/has godlike para rng, archer really just cant win, you need to land so much in order to drop the barb. Meanwhile the barb can drop you in one combo if they get lucky once.

As long as the barb stays on offensive and the gear gap isnt massive for the side of archer, barb should be winning it. In my match the barb started to get scared of those metal combos and started playing more passively, which was by far their biggest mistake. I managed to capitalize on that after a while and drop the barb but it wasnt exactly easy. Had they kept pressuring me, I would of not had the opportunity to go on the offensive to drop them.

That is indeed true and I can share this experience. Especially barbs are extremely tough now with the Golden Glyph'ed armageddon..that skill deals so much damage...it's just insane. I just recently tested it on my db on selfbuffs. 31k pdef, 31k HP + 100 def lvl (def weap + bles). Penetrate armor + Mire and a zerkcrit is insta-oneshot with ~43k. Just zerk or crit are easy charm-bypasses. Note that my barb did not wear full gears (so -18 attack level and 4k base damage) and only level 3 glyph. Lvl5 adds another 20% base damage on top of arma's damage.

So yeah, barbs are extremely tough again due to arma and in terms of survival-power they are still king.

kokoot

cosmosia1989 wrote: »

elcocot wrote: »

cosmosia1989 wrote: »

@kokoot gear imabalance doesnt matter. Any class that gets significantly outgeared will deal alot less damage than they would on equal terms. That is normal xD

Try killing an endgame josd barb with a g16 sin or duskblade. Impossible. Hence it doesnt matter.

LOL and what about killing decent barb with decent archer. dont even bother. must be very OP archer decent barb to do some dmg. op archer vs op barb also little chances

I elaborated on that before. These days it massively depends how each is spec'ed.

If you take a full josd barb vs a full josd Archer or just both more spec'ed towards survival-power than ofc the archer will have a hard time beating the barb. The longer a fight lasts the harder it gets for archer.

However, if you take a max damage spec'ed barb vs a damage spec'ed archer then the archer will have a very good chance of winning. Endgame deity archer can hit deity barbs for 20k crits per metal skill with just the regular metal debuff. That's insane damage. Be josd archer vs josd barb and you can be happy to hit 10k crits whilst the barb can still oneshot you with his Arma/debuff combo and so on.

I cannot push this enough: If you play an Archer go for AS MUCH DAMAGE AS POSSIBLE and then you will realize that the class is alot of fun and can be very competitive. Josd Archer is pointless cause debuffs and mechanics will get you killed no matter how tanky you are in base. Damage, damage and even more damage please.

The thing is you have to have better gear than the oponent. Your skill does not matter. The "cash" will kill the oponent. If you dont have it you are trash, thats just sad. Other classes can kill with lesser amout of "cash". We cant do anything about it.

cosmosia1989

kokoot wrote: »

cosmosia1989 wrote: »

elcocot wrote: »

cosmosia1989 wrote: »

@kokoot gear imabalance doesnt matter. Any class that gets significantly outgeared will deal alot less damage than they would on equal terms. That is normal xD

Try killing an endgame josd barb with a g16 sin or duskblade. Impossible. Hence it doesnt matter.

LOL and what about killing decent barb with decent archer. dont even bother. must be very OP archer decent barb to do some dmg. op archer vs op barb also little chances

I elaborated on that before. These days it massively depends how each is spec'ed.

If you take a full josd barb vs a full josd Archer or just both more spec'ed towards survival-power than ofc the archer will have a hard time beating the barb. The longer a fight lasts the harder it gets for archer.

However, if you take a max damage spec'ed barb vs a damage spec'ed archer then the archer will have a very good chance of winning. Endgame deity archer can hit deity barbs for 20k crits per metal skill with just the regular metal debuff. That's insane damage. Be josd archer vs josd barb and you can be happy to hit 10k crits whilst the barb can still oneshot you with his Arma/debuff combo and so on.

I cannot push this enough: If you play an Archer go for AS MUCH DAMAGE AS POSSIBLE and then you will realize that the class is alot of fun and can be very competitive. Josd Archer is pointless cause debuffs and mechanics will get you killed no matter how tanky you are in base. Damage, damage and even more damage please.

The thing is you have to have better gear than the oponent. Your skill does not matter. The "cash" will kill the oponent. If you dont have it you are trash, thats just sad. Other classes can kill with lesser amout of "cash". We cant do anything about it.

Why do you need better gears? No, equal is enough to have a chance of winning vs anything that isnt sin or duskblade.

Equal in this case means that you have equivalent offensive power for every point of defensive power the enemy has. So enemy has double Pdef/Mdef on chart? You gotta have 2xpattack/2xpenetration. Your enemy is full josd? You gotta be full deity.

Below deity/josd it's tricky cause you might lack some offensive power if you and your opponent are both Vit-sharded (as my archer is for example). With deity and a decent offensive star chart you have enough damage to kill anything in your gear range, even barbs tho that might require some outplaying, depending on how good the barb is.

kokoot

cosmosia1989 wrote: »

kokoot wrote: »

cosmosia1989 wrote: »

elcocot wrote: »

cosmosia1989 wrote: »

@kokoot gear imabalance doesnt matter. Any class that gets significantly outgeared will deal alot less damage than they would on equal terms. That is normal xD

Try killing an endgame josd barb with a g16 sin or duskblade. Impossible. Hence it doesnt matter.

LOL and what about killing decent barb with decent archer. dont even bother. must be very OP archer decent barb to do some dmg. op archer vs op barb also little chances

I elaborated on that before. These days it massively depends how each is spec'ed.

If you take a full josd barb vs a full josd Archer or just both more spec'ed towards survival-power than ofc the archer will have a hard time beating the barb. The longer a fight lasts the harder it gets for archer.

However, if you take a max damage spec'ed barb vs a damage spec'ed archer then the archer will have a very good chance of winning. Endgame deity archer can hit deity barbs for 20k crits per metal skill with just the regular metal debuff. That's insane damage. Be josd archer vs josd barb and you can be happy to hit 10k crits whilst the barb can still oneshot you with his Arma/debuff combo and so on.

I cannot push this enough: If you play an Archer go for AS MUCH DAMAGE AS POSSIBLE and then you will realize that the class is alot of fun and can be very competitive. Josd Archer is pointless cause debuffs and mechanics will get you killed no matter how tanky you are in base. Damage, damage and even more damage please.

The thing is you have to have better gear than the oponent. Your skill does not matter. The "cash" will kill the oponent. If you dont have it you are trash, thats just sad. Other classes can kill with lesser amout of "cash". We cant do anything about it.

Why do you need better gears? No, equal is enough to have a chance of winning vs anything that isnt sin or duskblade.

Equal in this case means that you have equivalent offensive power for every point of defensive power the enemy has. So enemy has double Pdef/Mdef on chart? You gotta have 2xpattack/2xpenetration. Your enemy is full josd? You gotta be full deity.

Below deity/josd it's tricky cause you might lack some offensive power if you and your opponent are both Vit-sharded (as my archer is for example). With deity and a decent offensive star chart you have enough damage to kill anything in your gear range, even barbs tho that might require some outplaying, depending on how good the barb is.

No on equal gear archer gets rect.
Of course somerimes you can kill something. But target has to be unprepared, laggy, or very bad luck. If you are dealing with some1 who knows what to do. Your best hope is you can kite for a while until he kills you.
Thats kind of sad. You can be competitive only if enemy has lower avatar cards. Or weaker starchart. Or less refined gear.
But most people that do PvP events have this all maxed so you as an archer have no chance.

aeternusdoleo

People seem to forget... there's 4 types of PVP in this game:
1vs1. This is currently the domain of mostly Dusks and Sins. Archers get rekt cause they cannot stay at range in this mode, unless they are facing another ranged class.
3v3 or 6v6. This already allows some more support oriented classes to shine and class synergies to work. It was a good move for PWI to implement this. Archers are a little better here, but still suffer from not being able to evade the enemy team as much.
Mass vs Mass (TW and XTW). Archers, especially clustered in groups work well here. They can quickly switch targets and mass focus on enemies. Their extremely long range and relatively high physical DD allows coordinated groups of archers to quickly pick off arcane targets - mainly clers. Good and quick coordination is key here, if a target immus, move to the next.
Giant Clusterbrawl (AKA Nationwar). Reasonable for an archer. If solo you can try to dodge/escape when attacked, and pick off targets that are already engaged. If in a squad, much the same. But you'll be opportunistic rather then agressive.

Archers aren't my cup of tea. Tried em - but for extreme ranged damage these days the ol' wiz/psy boosted by sage SS seems the preferred combi. They made good autoculti alts though, back when that was worth doing... What archers need in my opinion is EVEN MORE range. If they can outrange the enemy they get a first strike vs other ranged classes. A range of 35 on bows wouldn't be a bad thing...