Effective HP with spirit

freygin
freygin Posts: 737 Arc User
edited August 2016 in Dungeons & Tactics
Does anyone know the formula for Effective HP but with spirit included ?

I'm trying to make sense whether it's valid or not to directly convert spirit into hp, but I bumped into a wall.

So here's the thing, I'm comparing [D with 10k HP and 2000 spirit] to [E with 10k HP and 1500 spirit] , and the result is like in this figure :
effectivehpwithspirit.jpg~original

(fg.1)
When D attacks E his multiplier is 1.2
When E attacks D his mutliplier is 0.833333333
So the effective HP for D when being attacked by E = 1/0.833333333*10k = 12000
While effective HP for E when being attarcked by D = 1/1.2*10k = 8333

(fg.2)
So if I want to ignore spirit, it's like D has 12k HP and E has 8333 HP, the effective HP (or survival index as I call it on the table) matched for both fg.1 and fg.2

(fg.3)
I assume the difference 12000-8333= 3667 is the HP I should add for E to be equal with D when spirit is factored in, but why is the result 14400 ?
I thought [D with 10000 HP and 2000 spirit] vs [E with 13667 HP and 1500 spirit] are equal, but it's actually :
[D:2000 Spirit, 10000 HP] = [E:1500 Spirit 14400 HP]

let's test shooting both with 12k dmg
when D attacks E = 12000 * 1.2= 14400
when E attacks D = 12000 * 0.833333333 = 9,999.999996 ~ 10000
It matched.

So [2000 spirit, 10k HP] is equal to [1500 spirit, 14400 HP] , means 500 spirit difference between 2000 and 1500 worths 4400 HP. If I fight with someone that has 2000 spirit and I only have 1500, I have to increase 500 spirit or HP +4400.

Is that correct ?

Comments

  • writerred
    writerred Posts: 68 Arc User
    not sure i understand the formula itself, but are you trying to figure out how much HP you need depending on spirit? Spirit doesnt affect HP, or are you trying to figure out how much hp you need to survive a damage with spirit
    If you're going to factor in spirit what damage you do is also affected by the opponents spirit, the smaller the gap between each player's spirit the less effective spirit is. Again i dont really understand all the formula stuff because math just goes over my head, but i would think if you want to compare the difference between the two characters, you need to factor in how much an effect a difference of 500 spirit will make.
    Next are you trying to make you're own original calculations, because if you are it seems like some sort of variable in your formula might be off? for example going off of figure two, no character can possibly have 8,333,333 or 833,333,333 hp. And really only a barb can get to 80k if they go for a pure vit build. also i noticed that you didnt factor in attack and defense levels and those are crucial to how spirit works, unless you're trying to formulate it with attack and defense levels equalling 0 which would make spirit useless. The description of spirit is pretty much 'for every Attack lvl you have over defense level and for every defense level you have over attack level, you have so much of an effect.'
    But i really dont see what kind of answer you're looking for, since spirit doesnt correlate or have any affect on HP, so i dont think there is even a tested formula for what it seems like you are trying to figure out
  • freygin
    freygin Posts: 737 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    The thing that decides whether a character lives or dies is HP, everything else is just reduction and should be able to be converted into HP, Effective HP is acquired by converting all dmg reduction into one big chunk of HP without any reduction, it can be used to compare character builds.
    for example :
    A has 1000 HP , 0 redux
    B has 500 HP, 50% redux
    C has 250 HP, 75% redux
    All A B n C have the same Effective HP, when being shot with 1000 dmg, they'll all die in one hit. 50% redux with 500 HP, 75% redux with 250 HP, when the redux is converted into HP,they'll have the same stat as A, 1000 HP with 0 reduction.

    Spirit is the same, it's reduction and dmg amp and can be converted to HP, it's like when your character is being debuffed by a BM's Heaven's Flame, you'll receive 2x the damage, but instead of seeing it from the damage received, we see it from different angle, it's like your HP is halfed but without the damage amp. Or if stacked with Extreme poison for example, the damage received will be multiplied by 2*1.2 =2.4x , it's like your HP is lowered a lot further. For example you have 10k HP, when HF landed, it's like you only have 5k HP, that makes you squishy, right ? imagine if the debuff is stacked with extreme poison you'll only have like 4166 HP, every dmg amp can be seen as lowering your HP. It's interesting.

    I believe spirit can be treated as such as well. But I'm still figuring out how it correlates between the two party, the attacker and the defender, because the attacker will deal more dmg while the defender will deal less dmg. If @asterelle or anyone could give the formula for Effective HP with spirit, that'd be great, so we could evaluate the value of x spirit difference in different 'currency', which is HP :)

    About the 8,333,333 you saw in the table, it's actually 8,333.333333. My country use . to separate per 3 digits, and use , for decimals. Sorry for the confusion.


    ---
    writerred wrote: »
    The description of spirit is pretty much 'for every Attack lvl you have over defense level and for every defense level you have over attack level, you have so much of an effect.'
    But i really dont see what kind of answer you're looking for, since spirit doesnt correlate or have any affect on HP, so i dont think there is even a tested formula for what it seems like you are trying to figure out

    Attacker with 2000 spirit vs Defender with 1500 will make the attacker's damage multiplied by 1.2.
    Let's say this attacker has 1000 base pvp damage and 50 atk level. This will make his damage output=1500, with spirit factored in that'd be 1500 * 1.2 = 1800 dmg.
    the equation for DMG = (1000 * 1.5 ) * 1.2

    If the Defender has 18000 HP, he'll die in 10 hits. so the equation could be written like this :
    HP = 10 * DMG
    HP = 10 * (1000 * 1.5) * 1.2
    18000 = 10 * 1500 * 1.2

    now let's remove 1.2 from the right. We can write it like this :
    18000/1.2 = 10 * 1500
    15000= 10 * 1500

    See how spirit effect (x1.2) is removed and now affecting HP by lowering it to 15000 ? That's what I'm trying to accomplish by doing this test.
    From A with 1000 base dmg , 50 atk level, 2000 spirit vs D with 1500 spirit 18k HP
    now becomes A with 1000 base dmg, 50 atk level vs D with 15000 HP. ( without spirit factored in).
    In this case, it's like by having 500 more spirit, the attacker reduces the defender's HP by 3000, permanently.

    Multiplication is commutative, if you see it from 'for every attack lvl you have over defense level' , that'd be like this :
    HP = 10 * 1000 * (1.5 * 1.2) , in this we see spirit affects atk level.

    Post edited by freygin on
  • writerred
    writerred Posts: 68 Arc User
    still confused by the math, so feel free to disregard anything else i say, but if i understand right you're trying to calculate if spirit is used by itself, but that isnt how spirit works. Factoringspirit by itself doesnt work because it is completely dependent on attack and defense levels, and acts as an amplifier to them.
    So the only thing i can really say is that if you want to try and figure out a formula for this, you need to have much more than one player testing it. All the other formulas for atk/def levels and spirit were made after several players tested and confirmed the results. As far as i know, there is no formula for what you are trying to figure out currently in existance, so if you really want to figure it out, you're going to need many more players to help you test it.
  • keihan007#7641
    keihan007#7641 Posts: 1,190 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    writerred wrote: »
    still confused by the math, so feel free to disregard anything else i say, but if i understand right you're trying to calculate if spirit is used by itself, but that isnt how spirit works. Factoringspirit by itself doesnt work because it is completely dependent on attack and defense levels, and acts as an amplifier to them.
    So the only thing i can really say is that if you want to try and figure out a formula for this, you need to have much more than one player testing it. All the other formulas for atk/def levels and spirit were made after several players tested and confirmed the results. As far as i know, there is no formula for what you are trying to figure out currently in existance, so if you really want to figure it out, you're going to need many more players to help you test it.

    He is trying to build a equation based on existing formulas, there really is no need for any testing as long as the formulas used in equation are correct. Its simply math to create that equation.

    If I had to guess, I think it would be following HP / (dmg reduction) / (attack levels) / (attackers spirit+1000/defenders spirit +1000).

    But I just woke up from naps so I`d take it with grain of salt.
    BlackList vs Frenzied 3/17

    https://youtu.be/RkkWkigYd3k
  • freygin
    freygin Posts: 737 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    Yeah that's what I want to accomplish by this, I think I got it for the effective hp. Using 1/spirit multiplier * existing effective hp formula.

    Now what I want to know is, since we as the defender with lower spirit also attack him with lower damage, how much effective hp exactly the defender has to have to be on equal ground with the attacker for that particular spirit difference, and current gears. With that, it'd easier to see it in HP than in spirit.