PW has become a casino

cayleyseveren

Bottom line... risking money on the random chance of winning something more valuable with it (no skill involved) IS gambling. That's indisputable fact. It's the very definition of a gamble. Consolation prize or not.

foley3k

cayleyseveren said:

foley3k said:

wager ‎(plural wagers)

Something deposited, laid, or hazarded on the event of a contest or an unsettled question; a bet; a stake; a pledge.  
(law) A contract by which two parties or more agree that a certain sum of money, or other thing, shall be paid or delivered to one of them, on the happening or not happening of an uncertain event.
That on which bets are laid; the subject of a bet.

Can you show me where players placed a bet, stake or pledge? Which NPC do we need to visit to do this? Because to gamble you need to place a wager. And no, buying a pack isnt a wager, because, again, gambling has 1 of 2 outcomes. Win or lose. Until you can prove that you placed a wager it isnt gambling. And yes, you can lose all if you are stupid, but you still got SOMETHING from the packs, you even said yourself. You get something from the packs, which is not gambling. Until the packs themselves deliver NOTHING, it is not gambling.

Of course some people consider it gambling. When people spend an enormous amount of real money in a game, then realize they wasted their money, they look to place the blame.
In those links posted, do any of those things they are referring to ("lottery boxes") do any of them give you nothing? If so, that would be gambling. If not......

On the loss of value on getting perfect tokens of luck. The value of those are determined by the player base. What it is worth is different to each player, and on different servers as well, cause the price of gold is different across servers. So the "value" of those have no play in this. What your value of them are is meaningless.

Gambling comes in many forms. It's not just placing a bet (or a wager) like you seem to think. One form of gambling is risking money or goods on the outcome of a random-chance undertaking. Opening a pack IS a random-chance undertaking, just like spinning a roulette wheel. You need to learn the difference between gambling and betting, then your argument might carry some weight.

You also said that if packs gave you nothing, then it WOULD be gambling; implying that as you get tokens it's not. So wrong. Lotteries in Japan, for example, always give a consolation prize. They offer expensive holidays, cash sums and all kinds of goodies, but the prize for 9,999 out of every 10,000 attempts is a small pack of tissues. That's very much like in-game packs. And yes, it is a gamble. You don't want the tissues, just like you don't want 15 tokens of luck; you're in it for the big prizes. It's a lottery and lotteries the world over are a well-known form of gambling; and are governed as such.

Prime example: A few weeks back, my boyfriend and I were in the pub and he played on the fruit machine. At one point, he won ten pounds. It immediately started to flash between fifteen pounds and two pounds. Two lights were also flashing; one said "collect" the other said "gamble". He collected it, mostly because of me gnashing my teeth, lol. Point is, he'd have got two pounds if he'd lost the gamble. Like I said, gambling doesn't always mean getting nothing. Or was the machine wrong? Should I call the manufacturer and ask them to change the word "gamble" as it doesn't match your incorrect understanding of the word? I think not. Gambling simply means risking what you have on an uncertain outcome.

Gambling, when used with the word Casino, as in the title of this thread, involves placing a bet or a wager. Which again, has 1 of 2 outcomes. Win or Lose, something or nothing.

Taking a gamble is different.

freygin

$ to Zen in pwi = money to chips in casino. The bet or the wager is how many packs we buy.

When gambling in a casino, we win some and lose some, it's not like we'll do all-in in every round and got nothing at instant. When we open packs, we might get something expensive (win), or just getting cheap items/token of luck (lose). When we all-in, it's similar to when we sell all items we got from packs then use it to buy more packs, open it, sell whatever we got, rinse and repeat until we get expensive item or close to nothing because in the end selling the items won't be enough to afford even one piece of pack.

Win or lose, something or nothing is more like betting on a horse race or bet on a boxing fight/football, we'll get something when we bet on a winning horse/team/boxer, and nothing when we bet on a losing one.

Of course if you compare the process it's totally different from a casino and opening packs, but the big picture is it's a form of gambling. Casino, horse race, lotto numbers, opening packs, they're all gambling and each has different method.

Even dye-ing fashion is a gambling to me. >< It's just colour ffs, why aren't we allowed to dye it as we want.

Just want to add, this game is exploiting human weaknesses in every possible way such as gambling and ego. Someone got something rare or OP and Duke shouts.

I bet many of us ever spent more than we can afford to lose just because we want specific color on fashions, at least once, to match it with flyer or mount or whatever reason xD

foley3k

freygin said:

$ to Zen in pwi = money to chips in casino. The bet or the wager is how many packs we buy.

When gambling in a casino, we win some and lose some, it's not like we'll do all-in in every round and got nothing at instant. When we open packs, we might get something expensive (win), or just getting cheap items/token of luck (lose). When we all-in, it's similar to when we sell all items we got from packs then use it to buy more packs, open it, sell whatever we got, rinse and repeat until we get expensive item or close to nothing because in the end selling the items won't be enough to afford even one piece of pack.

Win or lose, something or nothing is more like betting on a horse race or bet on a boxing fight/football, we'll get something when we bet on a winning horse/team/boxer, and nothing when we bet on a losing one.

Of course if you compare the process it's totally different from a casino and opening packs, but the big picture is it's a form of gambling. Casino, horse race, lotto numbers, opening packs, they're all gambling and each has different method.

Even dye-ing fashion is a gambling to me. >< It's just colour ffs, why aren't we allowed to dye it as we want.

Just want to add, this game is exploiting human weaknesses in every possible way such as gambling and ego. Someone got something rare or OP and Duke shouts.

I bet many of us ever spent more than we can afford to lose just because we want specific color on fashions, at least once, to match it with flyer or mount or whatever reason xD

$ to Zen in pwi = a transaction. You are free to use that in anyway you wish across their games. Buy items, turn it into gold, etc... You cant at the end of the day, go back to PWE and change what ever packs you haven't opened, back into real money, or zen, like you can do with chips in a casino.

Again, taking a gamble, is not the same and gambling (as it is used in this thread).

freygin

You always focus on the process or definition, so when two ppl watch a boxing fight and make a deal to pay when their favorite boxer loses isn't gambling because they don't visit a dealer and properly placing a bet with their hands ?

Or if someone opens a business similar to opening packs by selling scratchcards with chances like this :
Tissue - 15 (97%)
Cigarettes - 10 (2.9999%)
A car - (0.0001%)
I bet his business will be categorized as a gambling company. No matter how he defends it by saying it's not gambling it's just taking a gamble, you never get nothing, I'm not forcing anyone, it's optional. etc etc.

dblazen1

No matter how much it is discussed, in a legal sense it's not gambling, because you always get a random item in return. You can't make a case out of this.
The only "gamble" in packs you are taking is the item that will come out of it. It's not going to take your gold from you without giving anything in return.

You might as well sue nintendo for selling pokemon cards, because you didn't get that shiny charizard card.

What should be done is that parents educate their little snot nosed brats not to spend money on stuff they don't need. Especially not on low odd chance packs.
The corporate world can and will abuse people's trust and interest to their own advantage in the end.
Then again, they shouldn't allow their kids to make micro-transactions until they reach an age they are smart enough to do so. And in a mental state they are smart enough to do so.​​

freygin

It is not going to make a case I agree, but it IS a form of gambling, and it is legal since every mmo has it nowadays. Even casino is legal.

foley3k

freygin said:

You always focus on the process or definition, so when two ppl watch a boxing fight and make a deal to pay when their favorite boxer loses isn't gambling because they don't visit a dealer and properly placing a bet with their hands ?

Or if someone opens a business similar to opening packs by selling scratchcards with chances like this :
Tissue - 15 (97%)
Cigarettes - 10 (2.9999%)
A car - (0.0001%)
I bet his business will be categorized as a gambling company. No matter how he defends it by saying it's not gambling it's just taking a gamble, you never get nothing, I'm not forcing anyone, it's optional. etc etc.

Well, ya I am focusing on the process/definition, because that's how the world works. It is why things have a definition.

With the boxing match analogy, yes, because they made a BET. One person wins the other loses. You are gambling on who wins, because you placed a bet, or a wager in hopes of winning more then your bet or wager. ie started with zero, if you win you get $50, if you lose, you pay $50.

The other example, do you always receive something from the scratch off? (Probably not, because that's not how scratch offs work). There would still be a chance of getting nothing at all, but with PWE packs you always get something. You bought the pack, open in and receive something. There is a 100% chance that you will receive something.

freygin

Then I'll just repost the definition of gambling from wikipedia, since that's how the world works, and the world has wikipedia now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling said:

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize.[1] The outcome of the wager is often immediate, such as a single roll of dice or a spin of a roulette wheel, but longer time frames are also common, allowing wagers on the outcome of a future sports contest or even an entire sports season.

All of those three elements are present in opening packs, therefore it is gambling. Every item from packs has chance, and it is a prize when an item that popped out has more value than the price of one pack, not quite sure what consideration is referring to but it could mean consequence or reward, and it is also present in opening packs, the consequence is we will always get something but it could be valueable or just craps. Noone opens packs just because he wants token of luck.

Opening packs is the wagering of money converted to zen/gold and then used to buy packs (stakes) from boutique with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money (when we sell the valuable items that pop out and are more expensive than the packs), and/or gear/gems/goods that is OP. It is gambling because three elements : consideration, chance and prize are present. The outcome of opening packs is immediate, just one right click away from each pack. but longer time frames are also common, when the total items coming from the packs are sold for buying even more packs, allowing wagers on the outcome for more wagers of an entire opening packs session until getting something valueable or end up with close to nothing and cannot be used to afford even one piece of pack.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

foley3k

freygin said:

Then I'll just repost the definition of gambling from wikipedia, since that's how the world works, and the world has wikipedia now.

Citing wikipedia for anything is stupid. Some university and college professors (i've seen high school teachers as well) will automatically fail you if you cite wikipedia as a source.

Merriam Webster. Pretty much the standard I would say.
MW gives a simple definition
: to play a game in which you can win or lose money or possessions : to bet money or other valuable things
: to risk losing (an amount of money) in a game or bet
: to risk losing (something valuable or important) in order to do or achieve something

When you open a pack, you have not placed a bet, you have not lost anything.

freygin

Be it Wikipedia or Merriam Webster, they're both online dictionary/encyclopedia, if citing Wikipedia is stupid, chances are so is citing Merriam Webster. (It's like saying Windows is more vulnerable to virus than iOS while iOS user base is much smaller hence hackers are more interested in messing with windows.)

Anyway, I'll take a bite of your standard then.

MW gives a simple definition (as verb)
: to play a game in which you can win or lose money or possessions : to bet money or other valuable things
to play a pack opening game, in which you can win some money when getting valuable gear like CoM or lose money when you get perfect token of luck. In this case it can be said you bet money because pack isn't free or it can be said other valuable thing which is a pack.

: to risk losing (an amount of money) in a game or bet
to risk losing an amount of money in this pack opening game because the chance of getting token of luck is high and 15 token of luck is cheaper than pack price

: to risk losing (something valuable or important) in order to do or achieve something
to risk losing your gold which you can use to buy other important boutique items in order to achieve something from the packs.

Other definition on MW page :
1 a : to play a game for money or property b : to bet on an uncertain outcome
2 : to stake something on a contingency : take a chance

Simple Definition of gamble (as noun)
: something that could produce a desired result or a bad or unpleasant result

Sounds like it's directly referring to Opening packs lol. How can you still say opening packs is not a gamble with definition like that !


When you open a pack, you already did place a bet because it isn't free, when pack price < item price, you win, when pack price > item price, you already lost an amount of money in this pack opening game.

sylenthunder

Seriously guys, this thread is going nowhere.

Also, Wikipedia is not a "reputable" source, because anyone can change it to whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want. Which is why most good schools ban the use of it entirely.

Since the thread has been trolling in circles for a couple of days now, we're just going to close it.

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