PW has become a casino
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Gambling since 2009....
To be honest though, I really don't think you'd have a case there.0 -
hahahahahahbestwizard11 said:Oh boy more packs! Together with stuff like meridiens/refining/star-charts/avatar cards, etc perfect world is no longer a game, it has become a casino, making many kids addicted to it. What happen when they grow up? I think we have a case to launch a complaint against PWE to the consumer watchdog, don't we?
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Well all of this RNG is rather "limited" if you buy gold at 4m each and wait for a pack sale you will almost always make profit by opening packs. There are variables ofc and its not a 100% chance. But i have opened over 4k packs since October (i dont cash shop at all) and im about 3.8bill coins up. Ofc there has been luck involved but the BEST thing i have opened so far is only a Wings of Ascension. The odds of profit in this game are very high as far as RNG goes if you play your sales right.
This is common knowledge after all
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best thin i have opened is *only* a woa ...0
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i hope you understand this game follows the same rules for online gambling for those packs. there was a guy complaining about this many years ago and his argument was also moot.
they are not forcing anyone to buy packs and each pack has a CHANCE. volume of packs does not enforce that a given result MUST occur.... ie... buy 1000 packs and you are guaranteed x items. thats not how chance works.
i mean the complaint should be that competing in this game requires investment of a lot of money from a lot of people, and that the money they are making is sooo inflated based on absolutely nothing save for what lengths some people will go to be invincible in a game.
the most a complaint is going to get is a notification on startup of the client that gambling is bad and if you think a friend has a problem to tell them to get help.0 -
In terms of legality, you are paying $ for Zen. As long as they demonstrate you received the correct number of Zen for the $ you charged you have no case. What you then do with the Zen (on PWI this converts to gold) is down to you within the realms of pixels.DarkSkiesx
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http://mypers.pw/8/#3734570 -
Technically, exchanging cash for Zen is no different to exchanging cash for chips in a casino. Gold may be an in-house currency, but when it's paid for with cash for the purposes of buying 'chance' packs, it can easily be construed as gambling. If someone took them to court over it, PWE would most definitely have a case to answer. People underage are basically swapping cash for chips and playing the odds on a very stingy roulette wheel.darkonome said:In terms of legality, you are paying $ for Zen. As long as they demonstrate you received the correct number of Zen for the $ you charged you have no case. What you then do with the Zen (on PWI this converts to gold) is down to you within the realms of pixels.
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cayleyseveren wrote: »In terms of legality, you are paying $ for Zen. As long as they demonstrate you received the correct number of Zen for the $ you charged you have no case. What you then do with the Zen (on PWI this converts to gold) is down to you within the realms of pixels.
Technically, exchanging cash for Zen is no different to exchanging cash for chips in a casino. Gold may be an in-house currency, but when it's paid for with cash for the purposes of buying 'chance' packs, it can easily be construed as gambling. If someone took them to court over it, PWE would most definitely have a case to answer. People underage are basically swapping cash for chips and playing the odds on a very stingy roulette wheel.
Except that in a casino, you can only buy chips, specifically meant for gambling.
With zen, it's your own choice what you buy, chance packs are just 1 of the many things your could get with it.
Anyone who would try to make a case out of this would lose near instantly.
The only fitting image for this forum.0 -
dblazen1 said:cayleyseveren wrote: »In terms of legality, you are paying $ for Zen. As long as they demonstrate you received the correct number of Zen for the $ you charged you have no case. What you then do with the Zen (on PWI this converts to gold) is down to you within the realms of pixels.
Technically, exchanging cash for Zen is no different to exchanging cash for chips in a casino. Gold may be an in-house currency, but when it's paid for with cash for the purposes of buying 'chance' packs, it can easily be construed as gambling. If someone took them to court over it, PWE would most definitely have a case to answer. People underage are basically swapping cash for chips and playing the odds on a very stingy roulette wheel.
Except that in a casino, you can only buy chips, specifically meant for gambling.
With zen, it's your own choice what you buy, chance packs are just 1 of the many things your could get with it.
Anyone who would try to make a case out of this would lose near instantly.
The simple fact is, this game not only allows minors to exchange cash for gambling items (packs) but it actively encourages it. Any legal professional worthy of the title could easily argue so. Yes, with Zen it IS your choice what you buy, but the fact that minors are given the chance to gamble with it, is very shaky ground for PWE both legally and morally. I'm amazed you can't see that. Supplying minors with the means to gamble, in any form, wouldn't be looked upon favourably by the courts, that's for certain.0 -
dblazen1 said:cayleyseveren wrote: »In terms of legality, you are paying $ for Zen. As long as they demonstrate you received the correct number of Zen for the $ you charged you have no case. What you then do with the Zen (on PWI this converts to gold) is down to you within the realms of pixels.
Technically, exchanging cash for Zen is no different to exchanging cash for chips in a casino. Gold may be an in-house currency, but when it's paid for with cash for the purposes of buying 'chance' packs, it can easily be construed as gambling. If someone took them to court over it, PWE would most definitely have a case to answer. People underage are basically swapping cash for chips and playing the odds on a very stingy roulette wheel.
Except that in a casino, you can only buy chips, specifically meant for gambling.
With zen, it's your own choice what you buy, chance packs are just 1 of the many things your could get with it.
Anyone who would try to make a case out of this would lose near instantly.
The simple fact is, this game not only allows minors to exchange cash for gambling items (packs) but it actively encourages it. Any legal professional worthy of the title could easily argue so. Yes, with Zen it IS your choice what you buy, but the fact that minors are given the chance to gamble with it, is very shaky ground for PWE both legally and morally. I'm amazed you can't see that. Supplying minors with the means to gamble, in any form, wouldn't be looked upon favourably by the courts, that's for certain.0 -
someone spend there babysitting money and lose now think they can sue for loosing? Cable companies sued for minors being able access pron thru the remote I think not ,parents responsibility police what a child does or put parental controls. Prizes are not considered gambling in courts money has be reward.
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Nobody's going to sue anybody. We were just discussing whether or not buying packs could be construed as gambling. That was all. I very much doubt anyone would try to file a lawsuit over it. Well... some Americans might. I really don't care about packs personally. I've never bought them and I never will. I wouldn't go into a shoe shop and come out with 50 boxes that "may contain shoes", and I won't buy packs that "may contain something useful." The whole concept of buying packs just seems bizarre to me. If I'm going to part with money, I want to end up in possession of the thing I was looking to buy. I won't spend money on a maybe; I work too hard to earn it.0
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Exactly my thought, this game is like a disguised casino, most of the things you want in this game lead to gambling, you want to upgrade refine ? gambling. You want to get something off the packs ? gambling. You want to get Avatar S ? gambling. You want the best stats on starchart ? gambling, already got the stats that you think are best and want it doubled on fatestar ? gambling. Even for aesthetic purpose such as COLOUR for fashion, guess what ? GAMBLING.
I read that packs are banned in China. I wonder how ppl get items from packs if packs are banned.
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when packs first hit the market - dont lemme lie here, but i think it was around 2k9 in the form of anniversary packs it was actually no gambling. well this doesnt sound right the way i wrote- it WAS gambling, but was not perceived as gambling from the palyerbase. with 300k goldprice .. 1 best luck token (early anniv packs had a 2%chance for those) would be close to 20gold alreadycayley2 said:Nobody's going to sue anybody. We were just discussing whether or not buying packs could be construed as gambling. That was all. I very much doubt anyone would try to file a lawsuit over it. Well... some Americans might. I really don't care about packs personally. I've never bought them and I never will. I wouldn't go into a shoe shop and come out with 50 boxes that "may contain shoes", and I won't buy packs that "may contain something useful." The whole concept of buying packs just seems bizarre to me. If I'm going to part with money, I want to end up in possession of the thing I was looking to buy. I won't spend money on a maybe; I work too hard to earn it.
hitting a vit or cit or garnet was 20m aka 80gold..... didnt feel like gambling at all---> just open packs and get rich.
this is not the case with MOST of current packs anymore, with gold at 4m minimum. It is the case with 25s sochi packs though. Just open enough of them, and ur getting rich.0 -
No it hasn't become a casino. It isnt gambling.
A casino you buy chips (in some cases you just use a card/code that keeps track of what you have) and those chips can only then be used for games, on which you gamble, in a win or lose situation. In some cases you get something, in most you get nothing.
In PWE, you bought Zen. You can use it for anything in the boutiques in any of their games. Fashion, pills, refines, packs, etc...
Now in a pack, you are guaranteed to win something. Just because you don't get what you want, doesn't mean it is gambling. You buy the pack, you specifically get something in return from purchasing that pack. You receive something 100% of the time. Gambling is a win or lose situation. Getting something from buying something is not gambling.
This is the most **** thing I have seen on the forums in a while.cayleyseveren said:
The simple fact is, this game not only allows minors to exchange cash for gambling items (packs) but it actively encourages it. Any legal professional worthy of the title could easily argue so. Yes, with Zen it IS your choice what you buy, but the fact that minors are given the chance to gamble with it, is very shaky ground for PWE both legally and morally. I'm amazed you can't see that. Supplying minors with the means to gamble, in any form, wouldn't be looked upon favourably by the courts, that's for certain.
What about a kid buys, lets say, a pack of sports cards. Some cards are worth a lot of REAL money now a days. You could spend $3.99 on a pack of cards and get a rookie card worth $200 (actual numbers btw, I am a collector). So the kid is now gambling? Shame on that kids parents for allowing them to gamble. Shame on the store where he purchased the cards, for selling the cards to a minor. Lets get together and shut down these establishments that are corrupting our youth.
Legally and morally PWE has done nothing wrong. Any legal professional could argue so. You are correct in saying that, only because the lawyer would make you pay up front first because they know they wont win, and they will get your money anyway.
So to sum this up.
Gambling you place a BET. You either win or lose.
PWE You buy zen, and use it on any game and you will always receive something with it. The fact that you always get something from the packs makes it NOT GAMBLING.
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The fact is gambling can be disguised in many form. Packs is a form of gambling, refine too, colouring fashion as well, and many many many more.0
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It's not forced.
It's entirely optional.
This thread is 7 years too late.
All this has been said in this thread already. What more discussion on it is there?
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colouring fashion isnt gamble, it says random, thats why there are specific pigments with the desired colour.
it's funny to say that packs are gamble, never thought that before.
Probably people are bored and just trolling on forum0 -
Wrong. You can't buy yellow pigment with Zen/Gold without gambling on the packs and getting a pile of **** you didn't want, need or ask for. I know you can dye fashion other ways, but we're talking specifically about packs here.beast21g said:colouring fashion isnt gamble, it says random, thats why there are specific pigments with the desired colour.
it's funny to say that packs are gamble, never thought that before.
Probably people are bored and just trolling on forum
As for people getting bored and trolling the forum, I can only imagine that's what you're doing. Your contribution was both pointless and incorrect.0 -
cayley2 said:
Wrong. You can't buy yellow pigment with Zen/Gold without gambling on the packs and getting a pile of **** you didn't want, need or ask for. I know you can dye fashion other ways, but we're talking specifically about packs here.
As for people getting bored and trolling the forum, I can only imagine that's what you're doing. Your contribution was both pointless and incorrect.
Do these packs have a chance of getting nothing? ie, you click to open the pack, and it says "sorry try again" and you receive nothing?
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No, which is why it's not really gambling. You're guaranteed to get something. The only "gamble" is on what you'll get.Do these packs have a chance of getting nothing? ie, you click to open the pack, and it says "sorry try again" and you receive nothing?0 -
sylenthunder said:
No, which is why it's not really gambling. You're guaranteed to get something. The only "gamble" is on what you'll get.
Exactly my point.
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Why do you assume gambling has to lose your wager for nothing ? In opening packs, we did lose a portion of our wager if it only gives 15 perfect token of luck.
All those three elements are present in opening packs.
Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize.[1] The outcome of the wager is often immediate, such as a single roll of dice or a spin of a roulette wheel, but longer time frames are also common, allowing wagers on the outcome of a future sports contest or even an entire sports season.
Also we can lose all and get nothing if we keep on selling whatever we get from packs and use it to buy more packs hoping we hit a jackpot like CoM. For example we bought 10 packs, all gives 15 perfect token of luck, we sell 150 perfect token of luck and use it to buy more packs, maybe we get only 2 packs and open it again, we get 30 perfect token of luck and that's it. At first we have 10 packs and ended up having only 30 perfect token of luck.
Or we can start from much higher than that like 1000 packs and keep selling whatever we get to buy more chance with buying more packs, in the end it could end up of getting next to nothing.
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I'm so glad you posted the definition of what gambling is. Some people on here don't seem to know. Any investment in something where what you get is subject to mere chance, is a gamble. And that's exactly what packs are.0
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I just googled about RNG in MMO and most ppl agree that it's a form of gambling in disguise. It's not like a conventional gambling in a casino but the pattern is the same. We have high hope for getting op thing and might end up spending too much and get craps.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2i6hwq/is_mmo_gambling_the_new_casinos_but_for_kids/
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/23623-do-we-really-want-gambling-in-the-mmos-we-play/
just for examples.0 -
wager (plural wagers)freygin said:Why do you assume gambling has to lose your wager for nothing ? In opening packs, we did lose a portion of our wager if it only gives 15 perfect token of luck.
All those three elements are present in opening packs.
Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize.[1] The outcome of the wager is often immediate, such as a single roll of dice or a spin of a roulette wheel, but longer time frames are also common, allowing wagers on the outcome of a future sports contest or even an entire sports season.
Also we can lose all and get nothing if we keep on selling whatever we get from packs and use it to buy more packs hoping we hit a jackpot like CoM. For example we bought 10 packs, all gives 15 perfect token of luck, we sell 150 perfect token of luck and use it to buy more packs, maybe we get only 2 packs and open it again, we get 30 perfect token of luck and that's it. At first we have 10 packs and ended up having only 30 perfect token of luck.
Or we can start from much higher than that like 1000 packs and keep selling whatever we get to buy more chance with buying more packs, in the end it could end up of getting next to nothing.
Something deposited, laid, or hazarded on the event of a contest or an unsettled question; a bet; a stake; a pledge.
(law) A contract by which two parties or more agree that a certain sum of money, or other thing, shall be paid or delivered to one of them, on the happening or not happening of an uncertain event.
That on which bets are laid; the subject of a bet.
Can you show me where players placed a bet, stake or pledge? Which NPC do we need to visit to do this? Because to gamble you need to place a wager. And no, buying a pack isnt a wager, because, again, gambling has 1 of 2 outcomes. Win or lose. Until you can prove that you placed a wager it isnt gambling. And yes, you can lose all if you are stupid, but you still got SOMETHING from the packs, you even said yourself. You get something from the packs, which is not gambling. Until the packs themselves deliver NOTHING, it is not gambling.
Of course some people consider it gambling. When people spend an enormous amount of real money in a game, then realize they wasted their money, they look to place the blame.
In those links posted, do any of those things they are referring to ("lottery boxes") do any of them give you nothing? If so, that would be gambling. If not......
On the loss of value on getting perfect tokens of luck. The value of those are determined by the player base. What it is worth is different to each player, and on different servers as well, cause the price of gold is different across servers. So the "value" of those have no play in this. What your value of them are is meaningless.0 -
yep it is.. xd it allways been casino. Just now they taking to much0
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I deal with gamming commisions in several states with my business ,i can offer any prizes not cash and be fine soon as someone gives option let win cash or buy an item for cash then its inticment to gamble.0
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you are wrong some times there are yellow pigments on boutique when they decide to put them as sales.cayley2 said:
Wrong. You can't buy yellow pigment with Zen/Gold without gambling on the packs and getting a pile of **** you didn't want, need or ask for. I know you can dye fashion other ways, but we're talking specifically about packs here.beast21g said:colouring fashion isnt gamble, it says random, thats why there are specific pigments with the desired colour.
it's funny to say that packs are gamble, never thought that before.
Probably people are bored and just trolling on forum
As for people getting bored and trolling the forum, I can only imagine that's what you're doing. Your contribution was both pointless and incorrect.0 -
Gambling comes in many forms. It's not just placing a bet (or a wager) like you seem to think. One form of gambling is risking money or goods on the outcome of a random-chance undertaking. Opening a pack IS a random-chance undertaking, just like spinning a roulette wheel. You need to learn the difference between gambling and betting, then your argument might carry some weight.foley3k said:
wager (plural wagers)
Something deposited, laid, or hazarded on the event of a contest or an unsettled question; a bet; a stake; a pledge.
(law) A contract by which two parties or more agree that a certain sum of money, or other thing, shall be paid or delivered to one of them, on the happening or not happening of an uncertain event.
That on which bets are laid; the subject of a bet.
Can you show me where players placed a bet, stake or pledge? Which NPC do we need to visit to do this? Because to gamble you need to place a wager. And no, buying a pack isnt a wager, because, again, gambling has 1 of 2 outcomes. Win or lose. Until you can prove that you placed a wager it isnt gambling. And yes, you can lose all if you are stupid, but you still got SOMETHING from the packs, you even said yourself. You get something from the packs, which is not gambling. Until the packs themselves deliver NOTHING, it is not gambling.
Of course some people consider it gambling. When people spend an enormous amount of real money in a game, then realize they wasted their money, they look to place the blame.
In those links posted, do any of those things they are referring to ("lottery boxes") do any of them give you nothing? If so, that would be gambling. If not......
On the loss of value on getting perfect tokens of luck. The value of those are determined by the player base. What it is worth is different to each player, and on different servers as well, cause the price of gold is different across servers. So the "value" of those have no play in this. What your value of them are is meaningless.
You also said that if packs gave you nothing, then it WOULD be gambling; implying that as you get tokens it's not. So wrong. Lotteries in Japan, for example, always give a consolation prize. They offer expensive holidays, cash sums and all kinds of goodies, but the prize for 9,999 out of every 10,000 attempts is a small pack of tissues. That's very much like in-game packs. And yes, it is a gamble. You don't want the tissues, just like you don't want 15 tokens of luck; you're in it for the big prizes. It's a lottery and lotteries the world over are a well-known form of gambling; and are governed as such.
Prime example: A few weeks back, my boyfriend and I were in the pub and he played on the fruit machine. At one point, he won ten pounds. It immediately started to flash between fifteen pounds and two pounds. Two lights were also flashing; one said "collect" the other said "gamble". He collected it, mostly because of me gnashing my teeth, lol. Point is, he'd have got two pounds if he'd lost the gamble. Like I said, gambling doesn't always mean getting nothing. Or was the machine wrong? Should I call the manufacturer and ask them to change the word "gamble" as it doesn't match your incorrect understanding of the word? I think not. Gambling simply means risking what you have on an uncertain outcome.
Post edited by cayleyseveren on0
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