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The basic problem with HRs in mod6
Let's put our pride aside for a moment and admit it.
HRs are a bit <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> this mod.
I have 3 pvp toons: A lvl 65 TR, 1.7k; a lvl 70 CW 2.2k and my 4k HR. I pvp on all of them everyday, enough to get the dailies. They all share the same enchants T. Terror and grtr Negation.
Which one is the easiest to play..? In the present event..?
It's pretty much a draw between the TR and the CW. If I spend a match trolling the enemy base on the TR, it pretty much guarrentees a win, though more due to the other team's inexperience than my skill. And despite the nerf, my spellstorm CW, usually blows away anyone who isn't BIS. I don't use shield and don't mind dying, so the extra damage encounter in every rotation burns down anyone who can't either lock me down or put me down very quickly. Best dodge in the game.
The HR though. This mod. You play them, you know the problems. Basically, unless I massively outgear my opponent, sooner or later, I'm dead. And my gear, though on the Absolute/EoA etc. scale is no big thing, it's still probably up there with the top 10% of players in neverwinter.
5 respeccs so far this mod. A new record. Respecc to longshot, you get killed by other HRs and CWs. Respecc to trapper, you get killed by TRs, gwfs and gfs. Lomgshot is better damage, but in the way that one dollar is better than 80cents. Both are no good if the thing you need to buy costs 1 dollar fifty. Trapper cc is better than longshot, but only for 3 rotations and then hindering runs out. And ofc. Whatever we are trying to put down, IS STILL ALIVE. AFTER 3 FULL UNAVOIDED ROTATIONS.
And that's our problem. Not bulid, not stats, not gear, our damage.
Our base encounter damage just sucks. With a capital S. Full stop, discussion over.
Our class needs it's global damage buffed by at least x1.5, and x2 wouldn't be stupid overpowered either, given the state of DR, HP and general tankiness in other classes.
We're a poor shadow of what we use to be.
Now some of you can tell me to learn to play. And I'll say "sure" condescendingly.
HRs are a bit <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> this mod.
I have 3 pvp toons: A lvl 65 TR, 1.7k; a lvl 70 CW 2.2k and my 4k HR. I pvp on all of them everyday, enough to get the dailies. They all share the same enchants T. Terror and grtr Negation.
Which one is the easiest to play..? In the present event..?
It's pretty much a draw between the TR and the CW. If I spend a match trolling the enemy base on the TR, it pretty much guarrentees a win, though more due to the other team's inexperience than my skill. And despite the nerf, my spellstorm CW, usually blows away anyone who isn't BIS. I don't use shield and don't mind dying, so the extra damage encounter in every rotation burns down anyone who can't either lock me down or put me down very quickly. Best dodge in the game.
The HR though. This mod. You play them, you know the problems. Basically, unless I massively outgear my opponent, sooner or later, I'm dead. And my gear, though on the Absolute/EoA etc. scale is no big thing, it's still probably up there with the top 10% of players in neverwinter.
5 respeccs so far this mod. A new record. Respecc to longshot, you get killed by other HRs and CWs. Respecc to trapper, you get killed by TRs, gwfs and gfs. Lomgshot is better damage, but in the way that one dollar is better than 80cents. Both are no good if the thing you need to buy costs 1 dollar fifty. Trapper cc is better than longshot, but only for 3 rotations and then hindering runs out. And ofc. Whatever we are trying to put down, IS STILL ALIVE. AFTER 3 FULL UNAVOIDED ROTATIONS.
And that's our problem. Not bulid, not stats, not gear, our damage.
Our base encounter damage just sucks. With a capital S. Full stop, discussion over.
Our class needs it's global damage buffed by at least x1.5, and x2 wouldn't be stupid overpowered either, given the state of DR, HP and general tankiness in other classes.
We're a poor shadow of what we use to be.
Now some of you can tell me to learn to play. And I'll say "sure" condescendingly.
No idea what my toon is now.
Post edited by jonkoca on
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The only ones I see in premades from the big guilds are paired with a dps class, and provide permadaze support while the dps burns the target down.
Yes, that's true. There are like 4 top HRs that still play. Who would want to play this class now eh? Too many bugs, useless damage and bad survivability. On the other hand, still usable as a CC bot. But yeah, the gameplay is not enjoyable or satisfying, at least not nearly as much as it used to be.
i just cant stop proposing what i think would fix many thinks.
1) look at dodge.
2) bring offhand damage on par with bow.
3) buff weapon damage for about 25%.
4) fix wild medicine.
5) remove halved archery capstone in pvp.
here we are. A hr with reliable dodges, greater dps when switching instances, fixed combat tree with still greater survivability but lower dps and a archery tree totally focused on dps. Overall still squishy but hei, learn to dodge now.
Lol I can imagine.
Yeah, at least the dodge fix. Would reward some skillful play, though ping and some animation/hitbox issues would still make it meh. Dodge won't get fixed though, that's too difficult for them. Rather just nerf the daze spam and significantly buff damage. Also fix the 74858930 bugs HRs have. At least some of them.
if its true and there will be leaderborad according to paragons, may i be archery champion ))))
you would be the only one in leaderboard too xD
My HR is my main, and has been since I started in mod 3. I'm not going to let a thing like being at a disadvantage stop me from playing a class that I find to be the most fun in the game. I would love to see the damage from our at-wills increased and brought more in-line with actually being damage-dealers.
In a 1v1:
[13:43] [Combat (Self)] Your Cold Shoulder absorbs 2000 damage from [GWF]'s Sure Strike.
[13:43] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! [GWF] deals 5934 (24663) Physical Damage to you with Sure Strike.
[13:43] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! [GWF] deals 5925 (18416) Physical Damage to you with Lostmauth's Vengeance.
[13:43] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! [GWF] gives 0 (43712) Physical Damage to you with Sure Strike.
Meanwhile:
[13:43] [Combat (Self)] Your Careful Attack deals 137 (1185) Physical Damage to [GWF].
[13:43] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lostmauth's Vengeance deals 398 (1992) Physical Damage to [GWF].
Haha.
Give me that damage please
HRs aren't necessarily weak this mod, but the damage is pretty pathetic and the class' only saving grace is the dazes, which is pretty annoying and stupid to play against and play with, honestly. Longshot works for damage, however other classes will still deal more damage than you, and teamwork isn't as good.
The only high DPS encounter we have is Thorn Ward, and that's a DOT still and limited in its use, because it requires a node, and other classes will still deal more DPS over the time it's up than it can do.
I know most of you do like Trapper and the cooldowns. But first things first, in order for the class to be fixed, to receive the buffs it needs and to be nerfed in the parts like dazes:
Swiftness of the Fox, Thorned Roots and Forestbond must be removed.
That is the core of the problem right here, right now. Archery and Combat don't have access to the same things, and the core of the matter is that those 3 feats are plain broken. Imagine a GWF with no cooldown on Takedown and Frontline Surge, or a GF with no cooldown on Bull Charge and Anvil. Imagine mod 3 GWF Deep Gash, with those things, and with higher damage and CC. You cannot buff HR while keeping those feats. Because that's what would happen. Yes, it's a playstyle thing, it's fun, but if you want buffs, you need to understand that Swiftness especially is grossly overpowered - it's just that the class encounters are so weak that it's not noticeable.
There were two feats in the old Archery tree from mod 2/3 - Correcting Aim and Prime Critical. Correcting Aim increased your crit chance by 5% every time you didn't crit, and would reset to your default crit when you did crit. Prime Critical would reduce your cooldowns by 0.5s for each crit hit you did. This was fairly balanced, except in module 3 because of Careful Attack multiprocing and hence activating Prime Critical 4 times per hit.
I'd like to see feats such as that restored, with base damage increased. But Swiftness, Thorned and Forestbond must be removed before that can happen. And also an ICD or rework of Crushing Roots.
PvP. Not PvE.
PvE damage is fine atm as Trapper, but mostly because of Swiftness.
The feats are broken in a way HR cannot be buffed, not without breaking the class even further.
Hey, a Sab rogue deals 10k Unmitigatable damage at range :P Thats higher than those 5k after reduction hits hehe.
that's just it though. GWF don't have any Targeted Encounters for the guaranteed damage so landing their damage is a lot harder, plus they need too be able to build their stacks to do that damage in the first place, they also don't have a dodge (even though hr dodge is **** its still a dodge).
My GWF is pretty well geared (Under 4k though) and I don't deal hits like that in pvp against similarly geared enemies lol. this might be a bit bias as I play a GWF, But I also play HR,SW,TR,OP, So I want every class too have its balance and be good at its own things.
I Do not want classes to just be carbon copies of each other with the same damage / control /defence potentials.
Getting back on topic though, HR does need more damage however I think it should mostly be in Combat tree and Archery tree. and leave trapper as the "controller dps". I loved playing my HR in mod 4, Combat was so fun and really satisfying.
Rework a few of their now <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> feats (wilds medicine buff pls!) and increase hr encounter damage in general by like 25% or so (buffs all 3 paths, better too start small, and make small adjustments, that too just dump a huge buff on at once, then everyone scream for a nerf).
Remove the half as effective in pvp from archery capstone, and make the 5% crit bonus in archer 10% (tier 2 feat) and fluid hunter up to 5% deflect from 2.5% , you could also change Skirmishers gambit to be -1% Crit per level, but still +10% severity, Though I can totally see Archer Hr's going 15 into combat for that then and it might be OP (P vorp + Skirmishers for 100% Severity!)
Might make a difference. I miss kiting people as a combat hr dashing in and out of the fight doing crazy bursts and healing up really quick from all that lifesteal.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Destroying the trapper paragon path is not a requirement for buffing the other too. So, with respect, stuff it.
As much as other players complain about trappers, the only reason they do so is that trappers take soooooooooooo looooooooooooooong to kill them. It's no more obnoxious than being killed by the same old one-rotation nonsense that GWFs or GFs or CWs - and in fact the length of time it takes to happen means that those players are more likely to be saved by their teammates.
The recent supposed fix to thorned roots notwithstanding, the fact is that HRs need about a 200% damage buff to be competitive with similarly geared players of other striker classes.
Basically, we're in the same rut of being ignored and neglected by devs that TRs were from mod 2 - mod 4.
...when Swiftness doesn't completely fail for no reason, as it often does even in 5-person parties.
Except that Rain of Arrows is useless except against stationary or rooted targets and has a long animation, Cordon has limited charges and the same long animation, and Plant Growth replies on using Cordon. Also, Plant Growth, despite being A GIANT PILE OF GRASPING ROOTS, applies neither strong nor weak grasping roots as far as trapper feats are concerned.
No, what you do is root/stun someone and then hit them with Gushing Wound. It's mostly useless against fast-moving targets like Valindra and won't help you much against GWFs or TRs, but nothing else destroys elites, bosses, healers and tanks faster.
You don't read, do you?
Trapper needs to be nerfed in order for HR overall to be buffed. You cannot buff HR damage, base damage, because that's where the problem lies - without nerfing the BS that Trapper is. What class has near 0 cooldowns on all their encounters? What class can spam their CCs and immunities over and over with no cooldown?
No, the reason for HR being so weak atm is because Trapper seems so good when it really isn't. The reason why trappers deal DPS is because of Swiftness + Thorned. This makes Trapper overperform compared to the other paths, and makes HR seem better than it is because it /looks/ like you have damage when you really don't. Why don't you count how much damage your encounters do compared to Thorned Roots in PvP, running standard Fox + Hindering + Constricting rotation? Thorned is roughly 40% of your DPS, along with the capstone giving you infinite dailies.
Remove Swiftness, Forestbond and Thorned Roots, then you see how HR will perform, and only then can you make the appropriate adjustments. Without doing that, you either underbuff the HR, because Archery and Combat will still be useless because Trapper would have to be the testing dummy, or Trapper will be overpowered because the buffs will target Archery and Combat. It is not the HR feats that are underperforming, it's the class' overall base damage. Look at the base damage of your powers, compare them with other classes. It's not even close.
and I'm sure that works for you presumably as a trapper, and from the sound of it, more PvP oriented. I'm an archer. I don't PvP in this game (not in mod 6 anyway), so my build has nothing to do with pvp at all. I can most definitely make RoA, CoA, PG, and TW work together nicely, along with clear the ground, twin blade storm, and aspect of the lone wolf. my build works for what I do. quite well, I might add. it's all about tactics, positioning. and knowing where to drop your circles. weave away from you enemies, dragging them through the minefield you're constantly refreshing. take advantage when you have them clustered.
I've noticed everyone going trapper, then really complaining hard about the damage. I like to have my damage established and work in the defenses later on my dps'ers. when people figure out a non bug-related way to make trappers consistently out-damage archers I'll consider switching. In the meantime I'm still loving my role as an underdog, sleeper dps.
That is great for PvE, because you can fight in a way npc's avoid you, but for PvP it is pointless. Seems like if you nerfed the trapper tree in response to upping the overall damage it might hurt what the trapper tree seems like it was designed for a multiple target DOT build with mediocre melee/range combat.. Seems like the combat/archery tree should be focused on lots of % boosts for things like "distance from target" (near or far) but beyond that not sure how you could buff it to make it based on either "range" or "melee" when it seems like ATM all our skills are designed for you to be trapper tree because they honestly do "tickle" in comparison to all other classes. Always makes me chuckle that my "BIGGEST" single hit is from "Elven Ferocity" boon (at 20k damage).
Though i do hear some "stories" of great HR(s) that so 20-50k hits.. but i think it is bragging more than any truthfulness.. at 2.3k gear score i don't see that EVER happening..
Against what kind of targets? Did you mean PvP specifically? Those numbers are about accurate for my encounters in PvE. Considering what a GWF is capable of I don't think that's much to brag about. Anyway these are the kinds of numbers I've been seeing in Sharandar, The Dread Ring, and IWD.
Cordon of arrows for me usually crits between 48-52k. I've seen it spike much higher but I'm pretty sure that was from some outside buff I wasn't aware of.
fully charged split shot I've seen do 24k but is usually more around 18-20k.
My aimed shot is hard to pin down because a really only use it against dragons where everybody's buffing everybody else to bejeezus and back. I've seen it as low as 60k and as high as 120k in this mod.
plant growth is critting for 18-20k.
I'm at like 2390 Item level. I think rampaging madness may have something to do with the infrequent but still fairly regular higher spikes, as well as gaining more power for dodging around. These are all PvE numbers which is maybe not what you were talking about, but If I can get those decent seeming numbers at this item level I'm sure there are 4.6k whale HR's out there that can make themselves a real threat in PvP.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Exactly this. We archers are skirmishers and ambush predators. Strong at a distance or against the unsuspecting, and at a disadvantage beginning a fight from close range. Make your enemies eat as much damage as you can on their way to you, and keep increasing the distance they have to close, then when they're sufficiently weakened go for your coup de grace. Constantly move toward a superior position, by which I mean one that provides combat advantage, keeps you out of melee range, makes you hard to get to, makes your enemies have to slog throu your AoE/DoT's,or provides cover.
Deadpool // HR
Shakur // Tr
Deadpool // HR
Shakur // Tr
Deadpool // HR
Shakur // Tr
1) Archery does not have enough tools to get away or keep enemy away from them. All it has is a speed boost feat that is easily shut down by stun/root/daze/prone/slow. My suggestion is that there should be a feat in this tree makes Marauder's Escape break cc and gives HR cc immunity frame while flying away.
2) Combat does not have enough damage and survivability. This melee focus tree is absolutely gutted due to the Wild medicine bug and overnerfed Piercing blade (40% proc only on melee attacks vs Tr's 100% that proc on everything). The worst thing is that the melee base damage is ridiculously low compared to any other melee classes. For example, on my alt GF with 3k power + a crappy lvl 60 mainhand weapon, his Bull Charge's base damage is 9-10k. While on My HR's with 13k power + lvl 70 epic artifact mainhand, his Boar charge's base damage is 3-3.6k. Seriously, this tree needs a massive damage buff.
3) Overall, HR has too many useless/weak/bugged/meh powers.
-Electric shot? This at-will makes mobs angry because it tickles them...
-Hawk shot has base damage lower than Aimed shot, an at-will. Seriously??? Hawk eye should buff damage/crit rate for a duration not just 1 attack.
-Commanding shot has 2-3k base damage with 13k power, which is unreasonably low. The debuff description is too vague. I am not sure if it even worked. Stag Heart needs to gives much much more temp HP.
-Boar Hide should be a duration buff not just a buff for 5 hit. Boar Charge needs to have higher base damage.
-Oak skin healing is awful and defense buff is just a myth since it does not display on character sheet and I do not think it works at all.
-Battlehone gives 400 regen at rank 4. If it were 4k, I might give it a second thought.
-Cruel Recovery gives 1% temp hp upon a crit hit for 16 seconds at rank 4. If it stacked, it would be a nice feature to use, sadly it does not.
-Ambush roots you in place for 1 second with "hello I am here" animation. Trap? Its area effect is way too small to hit anything and the damage is just laughable.
-Throw Caution. Debuff your defense for...wait what? As if HR's defense is not low enough and this power actually makes it lower.
_Aimed shot gets interrupted too easily for a casting at-will. Aimed strike DoT should be stackable up to 3-4 times.
-Rapid shot is not so rapid. Heck, TR's Cloud of steel is like twice faster than this at-will.
_Rain of arrow needs to have area effect as big as CW's Icy Terrain, period. And its melee DoT should be stackable.
Seriously, no other class (except for SWs) kills itself so fast hitting someone with avalanche... and that is ridiculous, for that sake, I defend a 1 sec CD to avalanche stack.
Increasing the weapon damage by these numbers would be enough, encounter damage may be low but they add up. And a 1300ish blade damage would help combat.