TR had it really rough for a few modules so lets not jump up and down on the poor old tricksters.
I remember for a long, long time that they were basically the only class left out of almost everything because of the lack of anything to contribute.
They got stomped in pvp.
They were never accepted into parties on dungeon runs because they had no damage.
Stealth - yes.
Damage - yes.
But the bell will toll for tricksters again.
Until then, im going to lap it up. Its nice being at the top.
I was starting to wonder if anyone else actually remembered the dark age of the TR that was approximately from partway through mod 2 until a little bit into IWD. You can kind of make up for having the defenses of a weevil by one-shotting things like an iron golem. Having the defenses of a weevil and the fighting skills of one is rather less impressive.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
A CW is a controller first and striker second.
A pally is a Leader/Defender and controller.
Just to clarify, since you seem to like definitions. Here's the official definitions of Controller and Striker from the D&D sourcebooks. Emphasis mine.
Control - Controllers deal with large numbers of enemies at the same time. They favor offense over defense, using powers that deal damage to multiple foes at once, as well as subtler powers that weaken, confuse, or delay their foes.
Striker - Strikers specialize in dealing high amounts of damage to a single target at a time. They have the most concentrated offense of any character in the game. Strikers rely on superior mobility, trickery, or magic to move around tough foes and single out the enemy they want to attack.
So BY DEFINITION Controller does NOT equal crowd control. It's more complex than that, something very few people around here seem to understand.
The role of the CW is to do lots of AOE damage, while disabling or weakening multiple foes. If you want to do things right as a Controller, you have to do BOTH, not one OR the other.
EDIT: To add to that, it's one of the big reasons why I think the Paingiver chart needs to be re-evaluated. Almost all of the "damage done" is to trash as you clear the dungeon out. It's not hard, but it's something that needs to be done. And the more and better your AOE, the faster and easier it is. That being said, the classes doing the most AOE damage will "win" the Paingiver title. However, the hard parts are the last bosses, not the trash...and it's these encounters that are the real test of a characters power, not how effective they are at trash-mashing.
But all the general population wants is their magic cookie for being at the top of the Paingiver...and if you find yourself at the top, but unable to kill a boss in a T1 or T2, you need to do some serious self-reflection.
I find it funny when people say this. The CW Action Point tooltip states CW's gain action points when they deal damage, but perhaps that is wrong. Who knows with tooltips, they are like a cryptic puzzle.
I don't think I agree with that. I've always felt that we CWs only get action points from dealing damage NOT because we're strikers, but because getting action points from using encounters as well would render our AP gain OP (don't forget that extra encounter slot). As a CW I feel that my CC abilities often take precedence over DPSing. I also play GF a lot so I know first hand how incredibly relieving it is to have a good CW on the team who can offer me a moment to lower my guard and pop an encounter/daily/artifact, even if it's only for a second or two.
Lol, but the tooltips are a lot like cryptic puzzles. You got that right.
EDIT: To add to that, it's one of the big reasons why I think the Paingiver chart needs to be re-evaluated. Almost all of the "damage done" is to trash as you clear the dungeon out. It's not hard, but it's something that needs to be done. And the more and better your AOE, the faster and easier it is. That being said, the classes doing the most AOE damage will "win" the Paingiver title. However, the hard parts are the last bosses, not the trash...and it's these encounters that are the real test of a characters power, not how effective they are at trash-mashing.
But all the general population wants is their magic cookie for being at the top of the Paingiver...and if you find yourself at the top, but unable to kill a boss in a T1 or T2, you need to do some serious self-reflection.
The irony here is if they would simply remove the charts altogether, no one would really care about who did what, they just care that the dungeon was completed asap with minimum deaths....as I always do. But you are right, AoE damage really racks up the amounts of points you earn during a dungeon run.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
The irony here is if they would simply remove the charts altogether, no one would really care about who did what, they just care that the dungeon was completed asap with minimum deaths....as I always do.
Exactly.
Maybe they should just change it to track your personal contribution. At the end of the dungeon, you get a chart that says you did X damage, took Y damage, healed Z damage and died W times.
And that's that.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
Just to clarify, since you seem to like definitions. Here's the official definitions of Controller and Striker from the D&D sourcebooks. Emphasis mine.
Control - Controllers deal with large numbers of enemies at the same time. They favor offense over defense, using powers that deal damage to multiple foes at once, as well as subtler powers that weaken, confuse, or delay their foes.
Striker - Strikers specialize in dealing high amounts of damage to a single target at a time. They have the most concentrated offense of any character in the game. Strikers rely on superior mobility, trickery, or magic to move around tough foes and single out the enemy they want to attack.
So BY DEFINITION Controller does NOT equal crowd control. It's more complex than that, something very few people around here seem to understand.
The role of the CW is to do lots of AOE damage, while disabling or weakening multiple foes. If you want to do things right as a Controller, you have to do BOTH, not one OR the other.
EDIT: To add to that, it's one of the big reasons why I think the Paingiver chart needs to be re-evaluated. Almost all of the "damage done" is to trash as you clear the dungeon out. It's not hard, but it's something that needs to be done. And the more and better your AOE, the faster and easier it is. That being said, the classes doing the most AOE damage will "win" the Paingiver title. However, the hard parts are the last bosses, not the trash...and it's these encounters that are the real test of a characters power, not how effective they are at trash-mashing.
But all the general population wants is their magic cookie for being at the top of the Paingiver...and if you find yourself at the top, but unable to kill a boss in a T1 or T2, you need to do some serious self-reflection.
Ok... based on that a TR is a pure Striker... with tiny bit of Control. So... why does a CW do more damage?
Besides the fact that they are melee vs damage from afar.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
Leadership Council of Civil Anarchy
SYNERGY Alliance
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
curious why everyone (well most) are simply saying striker and comparing 2 totaly different dps types while calling it the same.....
first it is a DPS class (it is not a stiker or DD dps) it is AOE dps meaning it's single target dmg is significantly lower and it's multi target is significantly higher.. (or should be)
TR is a stiker (or Direct Dmg dps) class it's aoe dmg should be minimal and it's single target dmg should be a lot higher...
how does a CW do more dmg? in over all dng dmg? uhm easily.. it's hitting 5, 10, 20,... targets at once...
but are you talking about against a single target like a boss without add's? the TR should easily do more....
thats why they should not be compared using such charts as spoken about above.... total dmg in the dungeon means nothing... total dmg to the boss means nothing...
now i'm not really against this change that sparked this discusion... but giving the CW is suposed to be an aoe dps class...it doesn't make much since that the change made has little to no effect on single or low target encounters but huge effect on larget target encounters...
but eh, i think it'll all be fine just think they should give a retraining token since it did effect peoples build's and many people will now need to adjust (as they should do any time the change something that effects peoples builds)
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drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
curious why everyone (well most) are simply saying striker and comparing 2 totaly different dps types while calling it the same.....
first it is a DPS class (it is not a stiker or DD dps) it is AOE dps meaning it's single target dmg is significantly lower and it's multi target is significantly higher.. (or should be)
TR is a stiker (or Direct Dmg dps) class it's aoe dmg should be minimal and it's single target dmg should be a lot higher...
how does a CW do more dmg? in over all dng dmg? uhm easily.. it's hitting 5, 10, 20,... targets at once...
but are you talking about against a single target like a boss without add's? the TR should easily do more....
thats why they should not be compared using such charts as spoken about above.... total dmg in the dungeon means nothing... total dmg to the boss means nothing...
now i'm not really against this change that sparked this discusion... but giving the CW is suposed to be an aoe dps class...it doesn't make much since that the change made has little to no effect on single or low target encounters but huge effect on larget target encounters...
but eh, i think it'll all be fine just think they should give a retraining token since it did effect peoples build's and many people will now need to adjust (as they should do any time the change something that effects peoples builds)
Wouldn't that be nice and yes all that you wrote is correct... well should be.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
dps against what target types?? you saying your CW can out dps your TR against a single target boss/no add's?
I am not one to look at the damage logs, but I presume that is the case because they CWs I run with tend to be single target focused... especially on the boss, with or without adds. The adds are usually our job to handle.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
I will make the same joke again since we are talking about strikers again. Should sw and gwf damage be reduced to tr levels of damage (excluding some exceptionally strange run you can think of). If you think that sounds stupid and bad maybe we should get not too hung up on the roles.
definition of striker:
neverwinter/4e:
Strikers specialize in mobility and damage output. These combatants focus on disposing threats as quickly as possible by doing as much damage as they can, as quickly as they can, without enemies retaliating.
A striker primarily eliminates single threats by closing with a target quickly and safely, then rapidly dealing damage to it. The rogue is the classic striker class.[PH:15]
tellme how a gwf can do the underlined things alone and maybe. do more damage is a compensation... but again, that is not a objetive discussion, just a revenge thing.
like a honest guy, i need to say. that mobility thing is more important for pvp than pve. you can see the result in the game... dam reality...
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drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
just if give to my gwf a secundary role back and overnerf cws more. so, maybe.
objetive discussion? no, just a revenge argument.
definition of striker:
neverwinter:
4e
Strikers specialize in mobility and damage output. These combatants focus on disposing threats as quickly as possible by doing as much damage as they can, as quickly as they can, without enemies retaliating.
A striker primarily eliminates single threats by closing with a target quickly and safely, then rapidly dealing damage to it. The rogue is the classic striker class.[PH:15]
tellme how a gwf can do the underlined things alone and maybe. dont try...
This has always been my premise on the CLASSIC TR. A master of combat and anatomy... possessor of mad skills to kill in the shortest amount of time.
GWF... is a brawler... a barbarian with armor.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
This has always been my premise on the CLASSIC TR. A master of combat and anatomy... possessor of mad skills to kill in the shortest amount of time.
GWF... is a brawler... a barbarian with armor.
yes, gwf works like a generic mmo barbarian (great damage and can faceroll... what still happen in solo adventures). is a archetype.
in pve, he missed the faceroll thing and have a good damage to balance that. rogues in general work very well between mobility/damage/cc (secundary function) and you can see that in the superiority in pvp.
i will reapeat again: the problem my casters friends is simple: instead to create a cw and a war wizard (both controllers, but the second can be adapted to be a generic magician striker) the devs create a 2x1, and that create some imbalance. that is all.
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drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
edited June 2015
Well stated.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
CWs were the most and for the longest time "broken" and "unbalanced" as a lot of people like to say. In the time most of the elitists crybabys play them. This caused them to stay this way for a long period of time, because whenever CWs were touched, the amount of crying gave the devs ear bleeding.
CWs are controllers. They're not supposed to be the best damage dealers in game, the have "controller" in their name ffs. Its about time someone do something about this, give classes back the roles they're supposed to do.
...I had the cynical suspicion for quite some time that there were many CWs who gave a ____ about CC because a party member on the way from campfire to front doesn't endanger their Paingiver rank. :^/
The Crit builds will feel the change more than all others.
You can be as poetic as you want about dnd classes but it doesn't mean a whole lot when there is a videogame not being the way you think it should, if you are going to stand over this striker business though maybe you should live with tr damage in pve. I'm not the one tilting at that windmill. That's you guys. I think its ridiculous
To me the roles are at best a description for people who don't know about the game. You can go back a page for the controller description and see a whole bunch about damage. But then that word wouldn't mean what you say it means because it would mean what it means in context.
I think it would be a healthier discussion if we just dropped the word salad about roles and focused on game mechanics in the present without chewing over partially imaginary resentments from a year ago.
I'm not going to debate zaczau because I can never tell what his point is and it would just annoy us both.
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drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
Just to clarify, since you seem to like definitions. Here's the official definitions of Controller and Striker from the D&D sourcebooks. Emphasis mine.
Control - Controllers deal with large numbers of enemies at the same time. They favor offense over defense, using powers that deal damage to multiple foes at once, as well as subtler powers that weaken, confuse, or delay their foes.
Striker - Strikers specialize in dealing high amounts of damage to a single target at a time. They have the most concentrated offense of any character in the game. Strikers rely on superior mobility, trickery, or magic to move around tough foes and single out the enemy they want to attack.
So BY DEFINITION Controller does NOT equal crowd control. It's more complex than that, something very few people around here seem to understand.
The role of the CW is to do lots of AOE damage, while disabling or weakening multiple foes. If you want to do things right as a Controller, you have to do BOTH, not one OR the other.
EDIT: To add to that, it's one of the big reasons why I think the Paingiver chart needs to be re-evaluated. Almost all of the "damage done" is to trash as you clear the dungeon out. It's not hard, but it's something that needs to be done. And the more and better your AOE, the faster and easier it is. That being said, the classes doing the most AOE damage will "win" the Paingiver title. However, the hard parts are the last bosses, not the trash...and it's these encounters that are the real test of a characters power, not how effective they are at trash-mashing.
But all the general population wants is their magic cookie for being at the top of the Paingiver...and if you find yourself at the top, but unable to kill a boss in a T1 or T2, you need to do some serious self-reflection.
I'm glad someone else finally said this.
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited June 2015
Also, am I the only one who groups with TRs that easily outdamage any and all GWFs? I've never seen a mod 6 GWF beat a similarly geared/skilled TR in damage.
1 - but controllers still do a lot of damage. the last time i see 8/10 times more damage than a gf. why seens wrong do 50/100% less damage than a main striker? (and by the way, the number of enemies are reduced, so...)
2 - the definition of striker in nwO is more elastic. include aoe too.so, by definition, a main striker aoe should do more damage than a controller. is a logic thing.
3 - cw have a feat to reduct the aoe to improve single targe too. party heal (renegade saveme more than dcs in this beholders encounters), a lot of debuffs... seens strange ask just for some hierarch in damage levels?
4 - about sw/gwfs vs rangers/rogues. rangers maybe need some work in archery thing, but the diference between that strikers is: the firsts dont have your secundary function. even a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> dodge. so, between main strikers, that is more complicated to discuss. i think the mobilit thing is important here and a big factor. that is really, really visible looking for pvp (i dont care for pvp, but is a fact)
Also, am I the only one who groups with TRs that easily outdamage any and all GWFs? I've never seen a mod 6 GWF beat a similarly geared/skilled TR in damage.
can happens, yes. so.. good question: what the reason to include the others "ws" classes? is simples, is just a BIG revanche thing. is not like "My god, now cws will be ignored". some peoples even know what that means.
1. Change to 'dealing damage' for AP happened to a lot of classes a long time ago. You used to be able to throw powers at nothing (yeah even in PVP) and gain AP before an engagement. It really means less than nothing.
2. CWs have been (in PVE) able to have superior control and DPS don't get me started on survivabilty as when mobs cannot hit you defense does not matter.
3. Therefore most CWs on the server are the least skilled players who picked the easiest class to grind content. Don't be mad there are some exceptional CWs out there and it has been my pleasure to meet a few of them. But be realistic. Either a) all the best players chosetomain a CW or b) it has been unballanced since launch and dev's like to provide an easy mode for players. This is just human nature. I amnot innocent either I used mine to multi-grind for quick AD on more than one occassion.
4. A combination of 1-3 means that the skilled players who like CW will continue to play that class. They will make guides. People will use them. It is not the apocalapse. Everyone else will make a GWF just like in Mod2. None of the bottom feeders will make TRs, Hr's, GFs, SWs, or DCs. This also is human nature. And good for the game because those who specialize in off-classes don't need the company.
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited June 2015
My GWF had the easiest time grinding to 70, by far. My CW clears trivial stuff faster. My TR was close behind them both (but only to 60, and hasn't been played since mod 4.). My biggest single hit was on my Righteous DC.
Comments
Sadly, they will find another game now.
I was starting to wonder if anyone else actually remembered the dark age of the TR that was approximately from partway through mod 2 until a little bit into IWD. You can kind of make up for having the defenses of a weevil by one-shotting things like an iron golem. Having the defenses of a weevil and the fighting skills of one is rather less impressive.
Just to clarify, since you seem to like definitions. Here's the official definitions of Controller and Striker from the D&D sourcebooks. Emphasis mine.
Control - Controllers deal with large numbers of enemies at the same time. They favor offense over defense, using powers that deal damage to multiple foes at once, as well as subtler powers that weaken, confuse, or delay their foes.
Striker - Strikers specialize in dealing high amounts of damage to a single target at a time. They have the most concentrated offense of any character in the game. Strikers rely on superior mobility, trickery, or magic to move around tough foes and single out the enemy they want to attack.
So BY DEFINITION Controller does NOT equal crowd control. It's more complex than that, something very few people around here seem to understand.
The role of the CW is to do lots of AOE damage, while disabling or weakening multiple foes. If you want to do things right as a Controller, you have to do BOTH, not one OR the other.
EDIT: To add to that, it's one of the big reasons why I think the Paingiver chart needs to be re-evaluated. Almost all of the "damage done" is to trash as you clear the dungeon out. It's not hard, but it's something that needs to be done. And the more and better your AOE, the faster and easier it is. That being said, the classes doing the most AOE damage will "win" the Paingiver title. However, the hard parts are the last bosses, not the trash...and it's these encounters that are the real test of a characters power, not how effective they are at trash-mashing.
But all the general population wants is their magic cookie for being at the top of the Paingiver...and if you find yourself at the top, but unable to kill a boss in a T1 or T2, you need to do some serious self-reflection.
I don't think I agree with that. I've always felt that we CWs only get action points from dealing damage NOT because we're strikers, but because getting action points from using encounters as well would render our AP gain OP (don't forget that extra encounter slot). As a CW I feel that my CC abilities often take precedence over DPSing. I also play GF a lot so I know first hand how incredibly relieving it is to have a good CW on the team who can offer me a moment to lower my guard and pop an encounter/daily/artifact, even if it's only for a second or two.
Lol, but the tooltips are a lot like cryptic puzzles. You got that right.
The irony here is if they would simply remove the charts altogether, no one would really care about who did what, they just care that the dungeon was completed asap with minimum deaths....as I always do. But you are right, AoE damage really racks up the amounts of points you earn during a dungeon run.
Exactly.
Maybe they should just change it to track your personal contribution. At the end of the dungeon, you get a chart that says you did X damage, took Y damage, healed Z damage and died W times.
And that's that.
Ok... based on that a TR is a pure Striker... with tiny bit of Control. So... why does a CW do more damage?
Besides the fact that they are melee vs damage from afar.
A TR should blow a CW's single target damage out of the water.
first it is a DPS class (it is not a stiker or DD dps) it is AOE dps meaning it's single target dmg is significantly lower and it's multi target is significantly higher.. (or should be)
TR is a stiker (or Direct Dmg dps) class it's aoe dmg should be minimal and it's single target dmg should be a lot higher...
how does a CW do more dmg? in over all dng dmg? uhm easily.. it's hitting 5, 10, 20,... targets at once...
but are you talking about against a single target like a boss without add's? the TR should easily do more....
thats why they should not be compared using such charts as spoken about above.... total dmg in the dungeon means nothing... total dmg to the boss means nothing...
now i'm not really against this change that sparked this discusion... but giving the CW is suposed to be an aoe dps class...it doesn't make much since that the change made has little to no effect on single or low target encounters but huge effect on larget target encounters...
but eh, i think it'll all be fine just think they should give a retraining token since it did effect peoples build's and many people will now need to adjust (as they should do any time the change something that effects peoples builds)
There is ONE important word in there... "SHOULD". Sadly, my 1.9k CW can probably beat my TR in a DPS race.
Wouldn't that be nice and yes all that you wrote is correct... well should be.
I run an IV Destroyer, and do really well with DPS.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
I am not one to look at the damage logs, but I presume that is the case because they CWs I run with tend to be single target focused... especially on the boss, with or without adds. The adds are usually our job to handle.
just if give to my gwf a secundary role back and overnerf cws more. so, maybe.
objetive discussion? no, just a revenge argument.
definition of striker:
neverwinter/4e:
Strikers specialize in mobility and damage output. These combatants focus on disposing threats as quickly as possible by doing as much damage as they can, as quickly as they can, without enemies retaliating.
A striker primarily eliminates single threats by closing with a target quickly and safely, then rapidly dealing damage to it. The rogue is the classic striker class.[PH:15]
tellme how a gwf can do the underlined things alone and maybe. do more damage is a compensation... but again, that is not a objetive discussion, just a revenge thing.
like a honest guy, i need to say. that mobility thing is more important for pvp than pve. you can see the result in the game... dam reality...
This has always been my premise on the CLASSIC TR. A master of combat and anatomy... possessor of mad skills to kill in the shortest amount of time.
GWF... is a brawler... a barbarian with armor.
yes, gwf works like a generic mmo barbarian (great damage and can faceroll... what still happen in solo adventures). is a archetype.
in pve, he missed the faceroll thing and have a good damage to balance that. rogues in general work very well between mobility/damage/cc (secundary function) and you can see that in the superiority in pvp.
i will reapeat again: the problem my casters friends is simple: instead to create a cw and a war wizard (both controllers, but the second can be adapted to be a generic magician striker) the devs create a 2x1, and that create some imbalance. that is all.
CWs are controllers. They're not supposed to be the best damage dealers in game, the have "controller" in their name ffs. Its about time someone do something about this, give classes back the roles they're supposed to do.
The Crit builds will feel the change more than all others.
To me the roles are at best a description for people who don't know about the game. You can go back a page for the controller description and see a whole bunch about damage. But then that word wouldn't mean what you say it means because it would mean what it means in context.
I think it would be a healthier discussion if we just dropped the word salad about roles and focused on game mechanics in the present without chewing over partially imaginary resentments from a year ago.
I'm not going to debate zaczau because I can never tell what his point is and it would just annoy us both.
Was that partially my intent? To suggest this karmic boomerang... who knows.
I do... but I am not in a sharing mood.
I'm glad someone else finally said this.
2 - the definition of striker in nwO is more elastic. include aoe too.so, by definition, a main striker aoe should do more damage than a controller. is a logic thing.
3 - cw have a feat to reduct the aoe to improve single targe too. party heal (renegade saveme more than dcs in this beholders encounters), a lot of debuffs... seens strange ask just for some hierarch in damage levels?
4 - about sw/gwfs vs rangers/rogues. rangers maybe need some work in archery thing, but the diference between that strikers is: the firsts dont have your secundary function. even a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> dodge. so, between main strikers, that is more complicated to discuss. i think the mobilit thing is important here and a big factor. that is really, really visible looking for pvp (i dont care for pvp, but is a fact)
can happens, yes. so.. good question: what the reason to include the others "ws" classes? is simples, is just a BIG revanche thing. is not like "My god, now cws will be ignored". some peoples even know what that means.
2. CWs have been (in PVE) able to have superior control and DPS don't get me started on survivabilty as when mobs cannot hit you defense does not matter.
3. Therefore most CWs on the server are the least skilled players who picked the easiest class to grind content. Don't be mad there are some exceptional CWs out there and it has been my pleasure to meet a few of them. But be realistic. Either a) all the best players chosetomain a CW or b) it has been unballanced since launch and dev's like to provide an easy mode for players. This is just human nature. I amnot innocent either I used mine to multi-grind for quick AD on more than one occassion.
4. A combination of 1-3 means that the skilled players who like CW will continue to play that class. They will make guides. People will use them. It is not the apocalapse. Everyone else will make a GWF just like in Mod2. None of the bottom feeders will make TRs, Hr's, GFs, SWs, or DCs. This also is human nature. And good for the game because those who specialize in off-classes don't need the company.
My Master of Flame would disagree...Yes I said Master of Flame...I believe there are maybe 4 or 5 of us spread throughout NW...
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
;-D
/10 char