what I've been doing lately is sticking with my guild cleric and pressuring their front points. keeping their 2 closest points under attack / controlled by us with only 2players having to deal with it allows the rest of my team to fight them in other areas. Against average enemy teams it works awesomely, as I'm strong enough to take on most people alone, and with a healer can usually survive long enough to kill multiple enemies. The problem is when we get jumped by SE rogues, or the enemy that comes to us isnt just a trickle trying to quick cap. when a larger group comes I usually hold out for a while and healer runs off to join up with others.
The advantages I get doing this though by the time the enemy focusses a strong force to defend these frontline points my team usually controls the rest of the field and as such comes to help before I die / as soon as I die. I think of it like back capping.
that being said. when I'm in a strong team with people who know what they are doing, I play a much more mobile role. as usually a TR or Op is doing that job instead.
Too many players believe in (completely arbitrary) absolutes. My thinking is that most any strategy that one's fellow players take can be played off of. A matter of recognizing what your team is doing right, and what the other team is doing right, and acting in a manner that maximizes the former and minimizes the latter. Don't know if it wins games, but it is a sure way to lower one's blood pressure.
"Flexibility" sounds good in theory, except in reality any "flexible" adaptation is possible only when it is supported by understanding in the basics. In other words, you can't run before you learn to walk, and you can't walk before you learn to crawl.
This is actually one of the largest problems with PuGs. Their general level of understanding of the match flow is low. They don't know how to read the map. A veteran player can open up the map and see how the markers are moving around or mingling and often that is enough to immediately understand what's going on. In case of average PuGs, I'm not even sure if they even observe the map in the first place, let alone read into it.
So their actions are generally clueless, their judgement is inaccurate down to brain-dead levels, and yet their pride is so high and stubborn as mules. In the end, every single "flexibile action" they take in actual matches, are simply bad choices.
Most people can't tell the difference between what's good for the team/themselves, and what's bad. Therefore, generally, anyone claiming that you need to be "flexible" and not follow standard strategy, is simply fooling themselves. Most PvP matches are won by sticking to standard strategy, because the players themselves are below standard level.
We can talk about flexible strategies that requires minute-by-minute fluidity when we're in premade-level PvP where everyone knows every play in the book. But in the 90% of matches we play, 90% of the players don't even know if there is a 'book' in the first place. They should be learning to master the standard strategy before thinking of crappy ways to excuse their idiot gameplay.
It doesn't take 4~5 people to take an empty node. Every time you have 4~5 people standing on one empty node for those meager few points, that's time and forces wasted doing nothing.
This would be a prime example what is wrong with absolutes. There are plenty of scenarios where this works out. Five players can take the first node faster. That will allow them to arrive earlier at the 2nd node and give them the numbers to hold it should the other team try to contest it. Of course, if the other team avoids confrontation, and breaks up into smaller groups to cap nodes, it might not be such a good idea to stick together in groups of 5. But that's when you adapt.
In Gauntlegrym, in going from node 3 to 1, 5 players would take 3 faster and having numbers would allow them to block the opposing team from moving in to 3. Either stick together to ambush and kill them as they leave 1. Or Use 3 players to block them and 2 to take the node.
The absolutists are a far worse problem in PvP than clueless "pugs." A need to be in control that is not always an indication that they know the game. Most of us lowlife "pugs," understand the basics just fine. Heck, almost all us participating in PvP have spent countless hours playing the game. Would be most strange if we hadn't learned something by now. And even stranger if we all agreed on the best strategy. I say learn to live with it.
This would be a prime example what is wrong with absolutes. There are plenty of scenarios where this works out. Five players can take the first node faster. That will allow them to arrive earlier at the 2nd node and give them the numbers to hold it should the other team try to contest it. Of course, if the other team avoids confrontation, and breaks up into smaller groups to cap nodes, it might not be such a good idea to stick together in groups of 5. But that's when you adapt.
In Gauntlegrym, in going from node 3 to 1, 5 players would take 3 faster and having numbers would allow them to block the opposing team from moving in to 3. Either stick together to ambush and kill them as they leave 1. Or Use 3 players to block them and 2 to take the node.
The absolutists are a far worse problem in PvP than clueless "pugs." A need to be in control that is not always an indication that they know the game. Most of us lowlife "pugs," understand the basics just fine. Heck, almost all us participating in PvP have spent countless hours playing the game. Would be most strange if we hadn't learned something by now. And even stranger if we all agreed on the best strategy. I say learn to live with it.
Whoa! The only part I agree with your flexibility principle is that a experienced player has to identify how his pugs are operating in a suboptimal manner and try to compensate for it. Knowing what kind of bad your pug team is, is a key to winning.
Also, at least Dom, is all about proactivity rather than reactivity. You want the red team to react to what your doing because it offers you control over them. Having to react to your team means you are fighting your teams mistakes as much as you are fighting the opponent. That makes PvP twice as challenging to anyone with some experience.
This would be a prime example what is wrong with absolutes. There are plenty of scenarios where this works out. Five players can take the first node faster. That will allow them to arrive earlier at the 2nd node and give them the numbers to hold it should the other team try to contest it. Of course, if the other team avoids confrontation, and breaks up into smaller groups to cap nodes, it might not be such a good idea to stick together in groups of 5. But that's when you adapt.
In Gauntlegrym, in going from node 3 to 1, 5 players would take 3 faster and having numbers would allow them to block the opposing team from moving in to 3. Either stick together to ambush and kill them as they leave 1. Or Use 3 players to block them and 2 to take the node.
The absolutists are a far worse problem in PvP than clueless "pugs." A need to be in control that is not always an indication that they know the game. Most of us lowlife "pugs," understand the basics just fine. Heck, almost all us participating in PvP have spent countless hours playing the game. Would be most strange if we hadn't learned something by now. And even stranger if we all agreed on the best strategy. I say learn to live with it.
I was writing a long, descriptive post about why you're totally wrong, but then realized nothing would make you accept the general lack of "L2P" and EPIC PHAIL your 'flexible tactics' brings out in reality. So I'm just gonna quote my little, green, wise friend and say:
"That is why you PHAIL."
You don't fall into those EPIC PHAIL situations PuGs run into if you really knew something. People who have good understanding, but are overwhelmed by gear/spec, don't lose the way PuGs lose. There are good fights and effective efforts everywhere, but in the long run you lose almost every open-engagement, and hence pushed back steadily until final defeat. This is what happens to people who understand something.
What happens with your 'flexible PuGs' is the "big bunch of red node signs everywhere, and the enemy team dancing in a conga line in front of your base". That's PuGs.
Too many vague generalities to even respond to. All I hear is you "pugs" are stupid, and "we" know what we are doing, so you better follow our rules. Other players do a lot of things that I find questionable. But the biggest disadvantage I see in pug teams is the lack of communication. On review, I think that mirrorballs had some good common-sense ideas on how to play the game. But I think that self-ordained PvP experts need to give the rest of us a break. Our level of incompetence is greatly exaggerated. And the grading system seems tied to our ability to follow orders. And how can mirrorballs jump to the conclusion that I "phail"? Or is he is speaking of the pug teams that he and his premades are beating up on? Of course they "phail." They usually are seriously out-geared.
Too many vague generalities to even respond to. All I hear is you "pugs" are stupid, and "we" know what we are doing, so you better follow our rules. Other players do a lot of things that I find questionable. But the biggest disadvantage I see in pug teams is the lack of communication. On review, I think that mirrorballs had some good common-sense ideas on how to play the game. But I think that self-ordained PvP experts need to give the rest of us a break. Our level of incompetence is greatly exaggerated. And the grading system seems tied to our ability to follow orders. And how can mirrorballs jump to the conclusion that I "phail"? Or is he is speaking of the pug teams that he and his premades are beating up on? Of course they "phail." They usually are seriously out-geared.
For me there is anger at pugs who have lost me many matches. Here is specifics:
*stand on the nodes that aren't blue to make them blue
*if the nodes are solid blue for longer than they are not solid blue, your team wins.
Pugs fail to do the above and lose domination matches.
There. That is specific. I am no more an expert at PvP than I am an expert at remembering to breath. It is brain dead simple stuff and mind blowingly frustrating when people don't get it.
For me there is anger at pugs who have lost me many matches. Here is specifics:
*stand on the nodes that aren't blue to make them blue
*if the nodes are solid blue for longer than they are not solid blue, your team wins.
Pugs fail to do the above and lose domination matches.
There. That is specific. I am no more an expert at PvP than I am an expert at remembering to breath. It is brain dead simple stuff and mind blowingly frustrating when people don't get it.
My impression is nothing at all like this. And I seldom get my mind blown. What I don't like is the finger pointing and temper tantrums. On occasion I've been on teams that I thought were stronger and that screwed up on strategy. Mostly because players were chasing kills instead of capping nodes. But what takes the joy out of PvP for me is the guy, usually with the best gear, calling the rest of us idiots when his team loses, and most of the time it is nobody's fault. We are just overmatched.
It's nice of you to actually try and write out a thread in order to get people to work together but because there is like 20 different languages on this server and everyone not understanding each other in chat or voice, you may find yourself becoming more and more frustrated doing GG and domination for that matter.
if you speak English and for the most part have decent gear, we do PvP everyday and every night and continue to increase our numbers with good players, look me up in game, my name is Gomok (GWF) or Sskai (TR).
I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.
-Kymos
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dragoness10Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 780Arc User
edited June 2015
Whilst many objectives in the PvP campaigns are based upon kills etc I find many PUG parties end up going for kills rather than hold a tower.
They are towers to me rather than nodes as I think "skill nodes" when you say nodes. They are also tall objects.
There's also some of the mentality amongst uberl33tPvP that you should be able to solo kill other players rather than ever need to depend upon your team for success, or have them depend on you. You know who you are out there that do this. :mad:
There could also be a little more "please and thank you" attitude in party chat. "Go node, claim it **** TR!" is not going to get teamwork. "Hey TR, can grab node 3?" is even far more acceptable than yelling an order as if automatically in charge. I find asking does promote a better feel during PvP than demanding orders, and this better feel translates to more wins.
Just some thoughts.
" I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
0
urlord283Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,084Arc User
edited June 2015
I feel your pain,
Last night we ended up with a large number of top killers and lost big....
we stayed and fought and did not take enough of the objectives
Since I started this thread a while back, I've checked in occasionally to see where it heads. It's been great to see so many divergent and a few convergent viewpoints, and to see that it never truly descended into a flame war.
I wish the forums worked like this more often. This is exactly what I was shooting for when I started this thing up, due to my ever-growing frustration at life in the PuG world.
I hope some folks actually take the time to read through this thread and to think about incorporating some of the valuable ideas in here into their game-play. Personally...this thread has reinforced some things which I already believed about my PvP play, has made me question others, and has given me much to chew on.
Good stuff, and thanks to all who have contributed so far.
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
Last night we ended up with a large number of top killers and lost big....
we stayed and fought and did not take enough of the objectives
Very sad
I think it was in Mod 3 when myself (Combat HR) and a guildie (pve CW that did pvp once in a while for fun) ended top in Hotnow with 32 and 33 kills respectively with our whole team basically getting more kills than the opposing team. To this day I cannot believe we lost that match
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
first of all , you are in game they have the worst level in domination so ...
the strategie in GG are very simple 1 tankiness man take point 2 or 4 (depend the side you are ) and stay on it all the time during the game until your team have a lot of point.
a group go to the point 2or 4 (depend on side) to take the point and keep it with a second tankiness man.
after that you have 2 man to kepp point 2 and 4 and 8other people are free to contest the 3 other point.
this is enough to do that.
whith this you win all the time because the opponant need more than one player to take point 2 and 4 so for the other point they don't have the munber advantage.
but for that you need PuG that know how you play domination, fight on node , look the statut of other node, etc....
and that this is impossible !!
i see some pug go to a bleu point and don't stop in your way to go to the red point ...
when you see this you know the lvl on this gagne was very very low.
i do lot of pvp video game , lot of domination system and NWO is the munber one of the very low lvl in this mod.
My impression is not at all like this. And I seldom get my mind blown. What I don't like is the finger pointing and temper tantrums. On occasion I've been on teams that I thought were stronger and that screwed up on strategy. Mostly because players were chasing kills instead of capping nodes. But what takes the joy out of PvP for me is the guy, usually with the best gear, calling the rest of us idiots when his team loses, and most of the time it is nobody's fault. We are just overmatched.
Our experiences are much different then. Just being overmatched is one thing. Can't fault anyone there. Usually though it is people not doing the basic Dom thing that loses the match. On TR I got the back cap. That will be contested through the match at the very least. Usually pulling two or more of the enemy. I see home node and two not even being contested and drives me crazy.
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urlord283Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,084Arc User
edited June 2015
It took forever but I was finally in a winning group...
Our experiences are much different then. Just being overmatched is one thing. Can't fault anyone there. Usually though it is people not doing the basic Dom thing that loses the match. On TR I got the back cap. That will be contested through the match at the very least. Usually pulling two or more of the enemy. I see home node and two not even being contested and drives me crazy.
Heartily agreed.
I still the same, waste of manpower happening in almost every match. You don't need more than one or two at the closest node at beginning of GG. People should be riding forth to cover as much ground as possible. This is on the same tactical page as in Domination where it is generally (and most appropriately) considered a very nubbish thing to do have people just riding to the closest home node and sitting there for capture .
There is a clear reason why people ride forth in both Domination and GG. This is the "standard" tactic, and its considered as a standard because it works. Any tactic that deviates from this standard tactic must have a good reason, and frankly, the reason why people flock to the closest node wasting time and manpower does not qualify as a "good" reason. It's usually because PuGs don't see further than 30 secs out into the game. They think that meager 300 points you get means something.
Well, it doesn't. It's a passive and automatic action, devoid of active thinking and aggressive attempts to gain the initiative. As your team waits for the capture of that closest node, the enemy riders are already upon your doorsteps. As soon as you finish capturing they arrive at that node and create one big chaos, most of your players on the node are forced into fighting them. When that happens all of your initiative is lost.
If anything PvP is all about initiative. Every action you take must be for the cause of gaining the initiative and keeping the momentum going. It's this sense of momentum and initiative the PuGs lack, more than anything, and they are always 2~3 steps behind veteran players. This is inexcusably and absolutely a L2P issue -- and yet, no PuG ever admits it. They always come up with excuses about some other form of imbalance when its clearly not the case.
0
lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
I still the same, waste of manpower happening in almost every match. You don't need more than one or two at the closest node at beginning of GG. People should be riding forth to cover as much ground as possible. This is on the same tactical page as in Domination where it is generally (and most appropriately) considered a very nubbish thing to do have people just riding to the closest home node and sitting there for capture .
There is a clear reason why people ride forth in both Domination and GG. This is the "standard" tactic, and its considered as a standard because it works. Any tactic that deviates from this standard tactic must have a good reason, and frankly, the reason why people flock to the closest node wasting time and manpower does not qualify as a "good" reason. It's usually because PuGs don't see further than 30 secs out into the game. They think that meager 300 points you get means something.
Well, it doesn't. It's a passive and automatic action, devoid of active thinking and aggressive attempts to gain the initiative. As your team waits for the capture of that closest node, the enemy riders are already upon your doorsteps. As soon as you finish capturing they arrive at that node and create one big chaos, most of your players on the node are forced into fighting them. When that happens all of your initiative is lost.
If anything PvP is all about initiative. Every action you take must be for the cause of gaining the initiative and keeping the momentum going. It's this sense of momentum and initiative the PuGs lack, more than anything, and they are always 2~3 steps behind veteran players. This is inexcusably and absolutely a L2P issue -- and yet, no PuG ever admits it. They always come up with excuses about some other form of imbalance when its clearly not the case.
Sums it up perfectly about the initiative part. Always keep the enemy guessing.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Comments
The advantages I get doing this though by the time the enemy focusses a strong force to defend these frontline points my team usually controls the rest of the field and as such comes to help before I die / as soon as I die. I think of it like back capping.
that being said. when I'm in a strong team with people who know what they are doing, I play a much more mobile role. as usually a TR or Op is doing that job instead.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
"Flexibility" sounds good in theory, except in reality any "flexible" adaptation is possible only when it is supported by understanding in the basics. In other words, you can't run before you learn to walk, and you can't walk before you learn to crawl.
This is actually one of the largest problems with PuGs. Their general level of understanding of the match flow is low. They don't know how to read the map. A veteran player can open up the map and see how the markers are moving around or mingling and often that is enough to immediately understand what's going on. In case of average PuGs, I'm not even sure if they even observe the map in the first place, let alone read into it.
So their actions are generally clueless, their judgement is inaccurate down to brain-dead levels, and yet their pride is so high and stubborn as mules. In the end, every single "flexibile action" they take in actual matches, are simply bad choices.
Most people can't tell the difference between what's good for the team/themselves, and what's bad. Therefore, generally, anyone claiming that you need to be "flexible" and not follow standard strategy, is simply fooling themselves. Most PvP matches are won by sticking to standard strategy, because the players themselves are below standard level.
We can talk about flexible strategies that requires minute-by-minute fluidity when we're in premade-level PvP where everyone knows every play in the book. But in the 90% of matches we play, 90% of the players don't even know if there is a 'book' in the first place. They should be learning to master the standard strategy before thinking of crappy ways to excuse their idiot gameplay.
my 2 cents.
In Gauntlegrym, in going from node 3 to 1, 5 players would take 3 faster and having numbers would allow them to block the opposing team from moving in to 3. Either stick together to ambush and kill them as they leave 1. Or Use 3 players to block them and 2 to take the node.
The absolutists are a far worse problem in PvP than clueless "pugs." A need to be in control that is not always an indication that they know the game. Most of us lowlife "pugs," understand the basics just fine. Heck, almost all us participating in PvP have spent countless hours playing the game. Would be most strange if we hadn't learned something by now. And even stranger if we all agreed on the best strategy. I say learn to live with it.
Whoa! The only part I agree with your flexibility principle is that a experienced player has to identify how his pugs are operating in a suboptimal manner and try to compensate for it. Knowing what kind of bad your pug team is, is a key to winning.
Also, at least Dom, is all about proactivity rather than reactivity. You want the red team to react to what your doing because it offers you control over them. Having to react to your team means you are fighting your teams mistakes as much as you are fighting the opponent. That makes PvP twice as challenging to anyone with some experience.
I was writing a long, descriptive post about why you're totally wrong, but then realized nothing would make you accept the general lack of "L2P" and EPIC PHAIL your 'flexible tactics' brings out in reality. So I'm just gonna quote my little, green, wise friend and say:
"That is why you PHAIL."
You don't fall into those EPIC PHAIL situations PuGs run into if you really knew something. People who have good understanding, but are overwhelmed by gear/spec, don't lose the way PuGs lose. There are good fights and effective efforts everywhere, but in the long run you lose almost every open-engagement, and hence pushed back steadily until final defeat. This is what happens to people who understand something.
What happens with your 'flexible PuGs' is the "big bunch of red node signs everywhere, and the enemy team dancing in a conga line in front of your base". That's PuGs.
For me there is anger at pugs who have lost me many matches. Here is specifics:
*stand on the nodes that aren't blue to make them blue
*if the nodes are solid blue for longer than they are not solid blue, your team wins.
Pugs fail to do the above and lose domination matches.
There. That is specific. I am no more an expert at PvP than I am an expert at remembering to breath. It is brain dead simple stuff and mind blowingly frustrating when people don't get it.
if you speak English and for the most part have decent gear, we do PvP everyday and every night and continue to increase our numbers with good players, look me up in game, my name is Gomok (GWF) or Sskai (TR).
-Kymos
They are towers to me rather than nodes as I think "skill nodes" when you say nodes. They are also tall objects.
There's also some of the mentality amongst uberl33tPvP that you should be able to solo kill other players rather than ever need to depend upon your team for success, or have them depend on you. You know who you are out there that do this. :mad:
There could also be a little more "please and thank you" attitude in party chat. "Go node, claim it **** TR!" is not going to get teamwork. "Hey TR, can grab node 3?" is even far more acceptable than yelling an order as if automatically in charge. I find asking does promote a better feel during PvP than demanding orders, and this better feel translates to more wins.
Just some thoughts.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
Last night we ended up with a large number of top killers and lost big....
we stayed and fought and did not take enough of the objectives
Very sad
Since I started this thread a while back, I've checked in occasionally to see where it heads. It's been great to see so many divergent and a few convergent viewpoints, and to see that it never truly descended into a flame war.
I wish the forums worked like this more often. This is exactly what I was shooting for when I started this thing up, due to my ever-growing frustration at life in the PuG world.
I hope some folks actually take the time to read through this thread and to think about incorporating some of the valuable ideas in here into their game-play. Personally...this thread has reinforced some things which I already believed about my PvP play, has made me question others, and has given me much to chew on.
Good stuff, and thanks to all who have contributed so far.
I think it was in Mod 3 when myself (Combat HR) and a guildie (pve CW that did pvp once in a while for fun) ended top in Hotnow with 32 and 33 kills respectively with our whole team basically getting more kills than the opposing team. To this day I cannot believe we lost that match
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
the strategie in GG are very simple 1 tankiness man take point 2 or 4 (depend the side you are ) and stay on it all the time during the game until your team have a lot of point.
a group go to the point 2or 4 (depend on side) to take the point and keep it with a second tankiness man.
after that you have 2 man to kepp point 2 and 4 and 8other people are free to contest the 3 other point.
this is enough to do that.
whith this you win all the time because the opponant need more than one player to take point 2 and 4 so for the other point they don't have the munber advantage.
but for that you need PuG that know how you play domination, fight on node , look the statut of other node, etc....
and that this is impossible !!
i see some pug go to a bleu point and don't stop in your way to go to the red point ...
when you see this you know the lvl on this gagne was very very low.
i do lot of pvp video game , lot of domination system and NWO is the munber one of the very low lvl in this mod.
Our experiences are much different then. Just being overmatched is one thing. Can't fault anyone there. Usually though it is people not doing the basic Dom thing that loses the match. On TR I got the back cap. That will be contested through the match at the very least. Usually pulling two or more of the enemy. I see home node and two not even being contested and drives me crazy.
It is all about strategy
Urlord
That was a Great Match!!! I was in it last night and it was even until the end.
You did a Great Job Urlord! I noticed!
But I think you carried the heavy lifting.
Cheers!
Heartily agreed.
I still the same, waste of manpower happening in almost every match. You don't need more than one or two at the closest node at beginning of GG. People should be riding forth to cover as much ground as possible. This is on the same tactical page as in Domination where it is generally (and most appropriately) considered a very nubbish thing to do have people just riding to the closest home node and sitting there for capture .
There is a clear reason why people ride forth in both Domination and GG. This is the "standard" tactic, and its considered as a standard because it works. Any tactic that deviates from this standard tactic must have a good reason, and frankly, the reason why people flock to the closest node wasting time and manpower does not qualify as a "good" reason. It's usually because PuGs don't see further than 30 secs out into the game. They think that meager 300 points you get means something.
Well, it doesn't. It's a passive and automatic action, devoid of active thinking and aggressive attempts to gain the initiative. As your team waits for the capture of that closest node, the enemy riders are already upon your doorsteps. As soon as you finish capturing they arrive at that node and create one big chaos, most of your players on the node are forced into fighting them. When that happens all of your initiative is lost.
If anything PvP is all about initiative. Every action you take must be for the cause of gaining the initiative and keeping the momentum going. It's this sense of momentum and initiative the PuGs lack, more than anything, and they are always 2~3 steps behind veteran players. This is inexcusably and absolutely a L2P issue -- and yet, no PuG ever admits it. They always come up with excuses about some other form of imbalance when its clearly not the case.
Sums it up perfectly about the initiative part. Always keep the enemy guessing.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.