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urlord283
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,084 Arc User
I have been PVPing every ay at least 4 times
All the games have been close
In many cases the difference has been the Red tram killing me....
It is like they begin to feel killing me is the point of the game.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind cause when that starts to happen my team is off getting the goal spots.
So
It works out, but It makes me a little sad so many people hate me
I will endeavor to persevere
Urlord
All the games have been close
In many cases the difference has been the Red tram killing me....
It is like they begin to feel killing me is the point of the game.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind cause when that starts to happen my team is off getting the goal spots.
So
It works out, but It makes me a little sad so many people hate me
I will endeavor to persevere
Urlord
Post edited by urlord283 on
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Comments
and
I joined by the Chooser
Not a premade
All games were close
I stand by mi original statement
Urlord
If you win in pvp you must be bis or part the guild illuminati or Satan. Because they say so.
In Dom there is only the evil conspiracy of guilds and the poor victims who get steamrolled every songle match.
Because they say so.
You see it's just not cool to like Dom PvP these days. Its cool to come on the forums and cry about anything that has to do with it.
I really like the illuminati part.
:'D
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
No matter how you spin it, logic demands that the leaderboard eligible queue at least should be a solo one.
And then I just pugged into a team in which nobody had more than 60k HP. That's also the every day reality.
that would explain why so many of the pvp guild members seem to be untouchable by the developers inspite of taking advantage of exploit after exploit ......
The rule with the ELO is that it balances time with matching similar win/loss ratios. The longer it takes to find match the more loose the matchmaking criteria becomes. So if you are like me and try to que every single hour that Dom is up, you find a lot of fairly well balanced matches.
You start at the bottom of leaderboard and with respect to the above, are usually matched against those also at the bottom. A good player will gear and win their way up. The matches get progressively harder.
You beat all the players with less, equal, or greater gear bit with less skill. You win until you run into players with better gear and equal or greater skill. Let's call this the ceiling. You lose until your w/l ratio has sunk to the point where you are matched against easier players. With similar w/l ratios. Then you generally progress back to the ceiling.
You don't get past that ceiling without either improving your gear or optimizing in other ways such as running in a regular premade or semi premade or tightening up your build or any number of things.
I think what is happening is people are doing well then they hit that ceiling. And run into premades and semi premades- the PvP guilds. Then instead of optimizing as above they lose match after match.
If vernacular is any indication, the op here is still around the floor and is winning and having fun. Heads up- it gets tougher. But again there are a ton of ways to optimize that do not require exploiting or running troll comps. It is as simple as having the right gear and build and actually doing everything possible to have a well coordinated team.
And the right gear doesn't even mean best, most refined. Stuff like running mod 5 purple artifact neck and waist that are not bis for your class is worse than running mod 6 green or blue neck and waist that is bis for your class.
Ya matchmaking needs a lot of work but IMO the worst enemy is ignorance on the part of the player.
BTW...there are some horrible exploiters in guilds. And notin guilds. But the fact remains tthat joining a good PvP guild will provide all of the guidance and info a player needs to optimize his character and game in a legit way. Not everyone is legit, but trying to make PvP guilds synonomous with systematic institutional cheating is wrong and tends to write off all of the legit strengths that bbeing in a guild offers the player.
Optimizing your character and play within the bounds of being legit and what you can afford and then getting match after match with horrible team mates is the mmo equivilent of genital mutiliation. Screw that. Its why people form premades or at least duo que.
I can't dig up the link right now, but I found estimation how many players you need in each tier to provide a functional matchmaking and my initial reaction in terms of NW's population was: No way the PC version has that. Matchmaking should be much more fluid and not that streaky.
Premade is one way to avoid the conceptual flaws, but I still don't get why they don't give premades, the solo leaderboard and casual play a different environment. My best guess is that they want to avoid even longer queue times at all cost, but my feeling is most would love to take that pill if it would guarantee competition and a representative ranking.
How on earth can ppl say, that matchmaking is solid? Me (3,6k CW, P.vorp/gr.neg and full burning set) with 3 french players (they chatted), 1.3-2.4 IL and a 2.x IL CW against a team with ELOL set, trans. terror, neg. enchants, weel of elements, at last, thats what I saw (in effect). Min. two near BIS players.
After I died a few times 1 or 2 v 3 on mid and the french guys did not leave the base anymore, I stopped fighting, too. The PUG CW started ranting something like 'cowards', 'no honour' etc, earning a place on my ever growing ignore list. The next match I had the same PUG CW and some other idiots in my team, fighting with 3 ppl against one TR on home, while I fought up to 3 enemy players alone. By their positioning you would assume, that someone told them, that standing on a node for more than 5 seconds causes skin cancer and bad breath.
I dont play premade anymore, so my ranking is somewhere between page 10-50, depending on the matchups. My leadership mules who leave PE once in a blue moon have better gear, then some of the players I am matched up with. In other fights I had 4.5k+ teammates and fought ppl who obviously had no/very low tanacity. I qued at the same time as a friend who is ranked pg 500+ and fought against him. Thats matchmaking at its best.
There are some good matches, but I think random luck is the culprit, not the matchmaking.
That works the other way round as well. If you have a solid team and want an easy win, skip all fast queues and aim for the longer ones. The very fact that you are able to game the system that way is an indication that something isn't right.
I'm pretty sure than you can do this with any elo or similar matchmaking system. For example this can be done in League of Legends as well, though because of the x times higher player population there, you have to have very high rating (in theory, very low one should work as well). Basically you can game the system because of low population, with high population you would be getting pop after pop and never get a vastly unbalanced match.
Yeah of course. I mean, the algorithm is probably fine, it's a matter of how much matchmaking is allowed to go up and down the ranking to find a matchup. In my eyes no match is better than any match, because any match will result in spawn camping, which is essentially no match anyway.
I want to see the link to the explanation of the wavelike matchmaking behavior.
Asterlog, your IL is what I would expect for a skilled players leaderboard placement given how I breakdown how the ELO works.
I hit the ceiling at 2.5 IL at page 30 and bounced between 30 and 80 until I started running partial and full premades. When we progress enough that we start losing consistently I'll know my scrubby IL is what is holding us back and will either invest in gear upgrades or downgrade my team because I don't want to be the thing holding us back.
Pugging when you are page 60 or better is just masochistic IMO.
No. Just because you win more matches when the monsters are sleeping doesn't mean ELO is working. It's pretty much shut off just to keep the queues a somewhat reasonable length of time, any apparent evidence of them working is just placebo imo.
The problem is, that ELO matches premades against premades, including semipremades, no matter the IL or ranking. If a low IL PuG full premade is masochistic enough to fight PvP premades, go team PuG. Worst fights I have by far are PuG semipremades with bad gear and ELO sticking me in their group, to 'fight' against a full/ semi PvP premade. A 2k player showing his 1k friends, how to kick *** in PvP, resulting in their and my *** getting kicked, angry posts in an unknown language in the partychat and me wasting my time.
this...../10char....
Hopefully, this is getting addressed soon.
Even worse is getting stuck in a pug with 3-4k clueless people who dont go near a node unless it is full blue and then blame your 2.5k il for the loss.
Yep, quing as a group under 3.5k is dangerous. I am usually the worst geared on the team and the people who que with me know it. I am not paying to win. I will do everything else before putting a dime into this broken game. When I start losing a lot after I've done everything else, I'll reluctantly upgrade gear. Until then, anyone that knows PvP and has decent tenacity is welcome to team with me regardless of il.
Seriously **** any attitude that attaches il alone to anyone's value as a PvP player.
as in, if you come into PvP with green and blue gear with no enchants or rank 3's and 4's and 1 blue artifact, your obviously just there to ruin everyone elses experience for the benefit of your own AD.... this is an issue that needs addressed as well.
I mean truthfully the list of things that need fixed in this game is growing by the day.
PvP should have a Item level tied to it just like any Dungeon or anything else where you can improve yourself.
A full suit of blues and rank 5's can be gotten for under 10k.
But anyway, the sad thing overdriver is, players like me and you...that made up the meat of Neverwinter... the people with rank 7's, 8's and 9's...
Once the exploiting got out of control....And nothing was done.
These players basically felt like they was being told to Pay to stay competitive, while others got for free and went unpunished.
Rather than Pay...they left.... in droves.
..and this is what we are stuck with.
That makes sense I suppose. The wins are pretty evenly distributed across the day though, not just happening when there is no sign of bis players.
I agree with this. It is a buy in to compete at a certain point. That is pretty standard for "free to play". You get a sample of the game free but if you really wanna play you gotta pay up. My hobby has been seeing how far I can go on the hundred or so bucks I spent on it a couple years ago.
There are also other reality issues we need to consider. Dunno if you might have noticed but since mod6 I really haven't mentioned anything about general balance issues, just only specific mechanic/bug related issues was all I talked about.
This is because I felt that the general PuGlic still needs more time to prepare, since PuGs are notoriously slow to catch up with progress. Only a handful of people have enough AD (whether by legit moneyspending, legit leadership "factories", past/present bug exploits, or bot-abusing) to gear up to their current levels as we can see today. It's been only a month since the release and if you're not the hard-core PvPer that uses some of the methods above mentioned, then there is no way you can gear up this fast even if you play the game 24/7 for an entire month.
My guess is PuGs would occasionally spend small bucks every couple of months or so, and the recent changes have brought what... a new mainhand, new offhand, new neck, new belt artifact equipment, new tiers of PvP gear requiring like more than 30 seals which you can earn only 1 a day (or was it 2?), four artifacts that need to be brought up to another "mythic" tier, 2 extra ranks of enchantments, and 2 extra ranks of wep/armor enchants....
IMO currently, the gap in gear quality between PuG level players and PvPers in mod6, is currently wider than anything I've seen before.
I'm currently leveling my alt character which is at level 69, and I'm making due preparations to get it up working as fast as possible... so I've prepared myself with the lv65 blue tenacity gear, around 65k HP, some basic enchants and elementary levels of armor/wep enchants and stuff. When I enter GG and check out the gear/spec of my team members around half or more have less than 40k HP. 40K is the level of HP PvPers hand when they were level 60 more than six months ago... and these guys are like level 65.. 67.. 68.. and their HP is lower than that, even.
These guys are basically one~two shot material. I use one encounter power and if that crits, these guys lose like more than half HP with that single hit, and these guys are probably like more than half the entire GG population. Some of the more "average" players have a bit higher spec than that but not by much, I'm around 2~3 notches below the max BiS possible at this level and people like me are less than 20% of the GG gaming population.
IMO, excluding the group that have so much money/AD to spend, I view myself as a "casual PvPer", whom constantly think about upgrading gear but just cannot afford to spend so much time or money on a game, and hence, would upgrade the character in "steps" every couple of months with a bit of planned spending.. I'm guessing guys like me are probably the larger majority even amongst PvPers, and the max BiS population are still few and far between within the PvPing population. This means I'm much slower to upgrade than the more competent bunch of PvPers, but the PuGs... they are like miles and miles behind even people like me.
....
This can only mean the general 'quality' of people partaking in PvP matches are, of course, also lower than ever. My guess is it will probably take another 6 months or so to finally have the PuGs catching up to the 'basic' level PvPers currently start off with. In other words, these guys will be getting maybe 80k HP and around 2.5k IL level in another six~seven months or so.
So until then, IMO, any discussion concerning the "GENERAL" level of game balance is simply pointless. The variation in relative gear/spec level is so much higher than ever that its really hard to talk about balance at all. The current absolute majority of players you see in GG, are those you can immediately tell that their spec is so low that no amount of L2P will help them.
Where I disagree is l2p. There is a lot players can do to optimize outside of better gear. At least at the 80k HP/1k tenacity/2-3k il tier.
A 2k with decent tenacity and 1/3 refined gear that is actually optimal for his spec is a bit stronger than the player with 2/3 refined gear that is from mod 5 and totally wrong for his spec. That is just one small example.
Gear power gap is massive but IMO still not as big as knowledge gap. People make the mistake of gearing up before they know what's really going on. It should be the opposite.
First, I'd like to make it clear that I totally support your take on the "L2P" problem. As a matter of fact, my stance is that probably 90% or more whines and complaints you see here in this forum are actually L2P issues rather than straight balance issues. Average players don't really have a clue as just how much difference there is with skill, and pretty much if you film 10 seconds of how an average player fights one can probably point out at least 10~20 things they are doing wrong... inefficient build.. inadequate gear... wrong movement.. wrong rotations... bad power choices.. not thinking properly... too passive, losing initiative all the time... bad awareness... bad timing.. bad target priorities... oblivious of the map situation... target fixation... on and on and on.
...
But that being said, there's a limit to how much a difference good experience and knowledge can offset. You can have the world's most powerful ant, but he won't be able to defeat an elephant. Same thing in real world sports -- weight division exists because in the real world, the "light and fast featherweight will bob and weave around super heavy weights, so it can be a stalemate" kind of thing doesn't exist. A featherweight enters a ring with a super heavyweight and its basically a one-sided slaughter. The physicals matter as much as skill, and people with big gear just has that much "physical", if you get what I mean.
Frankly, I'm a materialist. We first get the difference between the physical as small as possible, and then we can talk about L2P, IMO.
We need a "Bolster" mechanic
I know its been suggested before, and turned down with the logic "the population is too low", But wouldnt adding "ranked" PVP as a seperate option (with solo or premade queues) and having a normal "unranked pvp" possibly actually INCREASE the pvp population. as more players who were turned off it by the premade stomps will give it a shot again. with some hype-building and the news of potentially fair matches, i'm sure people might give it another shot. the new "champions" pvp thing that we saw a leak of is a good thing, but they really need to optimize the matching system.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
that'd be okay as well. as long as You could still potentially join the "normal" queue in a small party (not 5 man) . I have a few friends who I like to play with. who are ~ 2.4k ilvl (one is a healer, so they like to queue with someone who they knows will stick round). I'm only around 3k+ myself on my main, and a bit over 2.4k on my new paladin. It'd be pretty harsh if we were punished for playing together to have to go into the high tier premade 4k+ queues and get rekt. I'd say a lot of people who play probably have a friend they play with.
Unless you mean it more like a 5 man party creates a pvp instance. then another 5 man party joins them to fight them? that could be awesome.
Obviously they are looking at bringing some big pvp content out soon (from the leak) so its a great time for them to implement some sort of premade v premade register system. or a true "Ladder" system with some sort of PVP "ELO" system.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,