i have done something productive, and so have a lot of others. we leave queues that are not our speed, and stay in the ones that are. i don't see how that isn't productive. its worked for me so far. same argument you had. and i have a lot of fun playing that way. if you don't like it, then i hope you don't get queued against me. because you will be playing with yourself. a lot.
That isn't productive, it is stabbing your team in the back and it is cowardly. If someone says they leave blowout matches when they are a few hundred points behind with no hope if winning that us one thing. But you have stated that cherry picking matches by leaving the ones you don't like is the only way you can win. Counter productive and inexcusable.
i think its funny that we are saying almost the same thing.
we have found a way to have fun, and win some of the time. its by quitting when teamed against the premade PvP guild groups or groups that are just way out of our league, and playing against those groups that are within our range. so we have found a way. i'm actuall y all for GG the way it is right now, and i wish dom would go the same way. the only thing i would like to see added is the ability to kick a teammate that sitting at the campfire causing a loss, or a way to kick obvious botters in a PvP match.
if we could have those two things, and no leaver penalty then i'd be seriously happy. but even without those two, the ability to quit and a little 30 minute penalty that forces me to do something else for a little bit, or switch toons... i can live with that.
This is your most reasoned argument for leaving matches yet. Our stupid argument started when I said quitting ma tches early that are not easy wins is inexecusably bad. You said that is the only way to win. There is a world of difference between quitting lopsided matches when the score is 400-0 and simply quitting a match that is with in 200 points because it is not an easy win.
So which of these is you??? Because a ton of players will quit any match that is not an easy win. And of every five loses I suffer, 3 of them are from idiot pugs who have quit when its not easy or who just don't know how to PvP. They are usually the same people and I have absolutely zero empathy for or tolerance of them.
The best way to avoid idiot pugs on ones team? Form a premade. So the ****heads and quitters can face you and quit or lose and then blame the problem on premades and the matchmaking system.
Cryptic could you please pay more attention to fixing game breaking bugs? It doesn't happen often, but just a moment ago during pvp my connection dropped for couple of seconds. I try to log back and am getting punished for it with leaver penalty? You don't even give people a chance to re-connect! This should be fixed asap.
Bids he then the spruces to singer him an anthems!
And the Woodsie Lord binders them fleshes to stone!
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
on the surface i like that idea. but when i think about it, i see the following scenario
i queue, get a PUG
we enter DOM
Premade PvP guild all maxed out
after 2 minutes we know we aren't gonna get a point.
we surrender and game ends
i re-queue for a PUG
repeat because premade queued again as well.
Or you could just wait for a couple of minutes then queue up to avoid that premade again.
premades must fight premades and pugs must fight pugs
I agree to an extent. The only problem is when a few guildies or friends want to have some fun in pvp together to get away from the mindless slog of pve and then get matched with an actual premade. Not much fun to be had there.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
We've known that matchmaking sucks for many mods. The only productive thing we can do is optimize the variables that we as players have control over. Like quing as a group rather than quing solo.
The system sucks for everybody, even for the winner. Nobody gets decent matches and wastes time standing around. Hence scratching the leaver penalty is an easy way out of the current situation. Again: The number of matches that you currently would love to drop because they are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is vastly superior to the number of matches that would be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> because people have the ability to drop out.
And I don't see the variable I can change to make the situation more appealing. Teaming up and winning alone isn't the answer, you can just effectively exploit a broken system that way in case you still need glory or your Burning gear.
Or you could just wait for a couple of minutes then queue up to avoid that premade again.
I agree to an extent. The only problem is when a few guildies or friends want to have some fun in pvp together to get away from the mindless slog of pve and then get matched with an actual premade. Not much fun to be had there.
People have offered systems that take care of that. It's a non-factor. If they made Domination the competitive queue you could still go GG with your friends for a good time.
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
edited May 2015
This issue could be easily solved by allowing one simple feature: letting players join an existing match. In that way the people who quit in the first minute will be replaced within seconds so the rest of the team isn't permanently gimped for the remainder of the match. Prioritise it so that gaps in teams are filled before new groups are formed for new matches.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
until then just eliminate the 30 minute leaver penalty so people that honestly get disconnected can come back, and those of us that simply don't like queuing against premades and uber teams can drop and try again.[/QUOTE]
Have you not pvp'd before the implementation of the penalty? You can't get good matches. As soon as it looks like the match will be any type of work, people leave and reQ in hopes of finding an easy match.
The system sucks for everybody, even for the winner. Nobody gets decent matches and wastes time standing around. Hence scratching the leaver penalty is an easy way out of the current situation. Again: The number of matches that you currently would love to drop because they are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is vastly superior to the number of matches that would be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> because people have the ability to drop out.
And I don't see the variable I can change to make the situation more appealing. Teaming up and winning alone isn't the answer, you can just effectively exploit a broken system that way in case you still need glory or your Burning gear.
Playing a team game as a team is no exploit. It is how you play the game. That is the most basic and easiest to understand thing. The problem is the players more than the game its self.
Still the whole entirely blown mm thing is wrong. There is an ELO. If enough people are quing it will match you against others of similar win loss ratio. If only a few que it will match those few against each other. Anyone who plays a lot of Dom knows that if you que as a premade your odds if running into another premade are much higher. Also the better you do, the harder the matches.
This is why it is a little foolish to enter into these arguments. The premise I am arguing against is faulty.
I can't argue what makes PvP fun. I can tell people what wins matches and they can follow that advice or not. The game is already fun for me. Matches are split between blowouts for or against me, and really close matches. That is fun for me though I'd like to see more close matches. Cryptic is not going to change matchmaking so the best that can be done is for more people to que and play to win.
i don't think you are getting the point. most of us don't want premades. we want PUGs. but we want PUGs at our own skill levels, whatever they are. And if we can't have that we will continue to just quit and re-queue. there is no penalty that can be implemented that will stop that.
if they wanted to make it a bit more fair then implement something like a 3 minute stay. if you quit before 3 minutes you get a penalty if you quit after 3 minutes then no penalty. that will make most of us at least try for a few minutes before deciding it can't be done.
and nothing anyone says or does in this game is going to prevent myself and people like me from quitting a one sided fight. too many alts, and too much other stuff you can do. and i like the idea of the premades sitting on their thumbs in the match. same with the 4k guys. the more they sit in an empty room the better it actually makes me feel.
You didn't answer a pretty straight forward question. Do you quit to get the easy win or do you quit only when a match is unwinnable and lopsided? That is a key question because if you just keep quitting till its an easy win than you and those like you are destroying PvP and really just shouldn't que at all.
So you want to play matches against people of similar gear but not if they are playing the team game as a team. Because you'd rather play the team game solo?
Sounds like you want a game customized just for you, where it is an easy match or you just go home and qq on the forums. If that is the case, please just uninstall. Give some reason why that is not the case.
and nothing anyone says or does in this game is going to prevent myself and people like me from quitting a one sided fight. too many alts, and too much other stuff you can do. and i like the idea of the premades sitting on their thumbs in the match. same with the 4k guys. the more they sit in an empty room the better it actually makes me feel.
Meh, there was more of a response I was gonna put but after seeing this and the last paragraph in your last post in this thread, there's no point.
i don't think anyone wants them to quit trying to do fair matchmaking. i think most of us would like to see it done better. but i also think a lot of us would like to see the leaver penalty abolished. it doesn't work.
the fact that people are complaining about people quitting is proof enough that it doesn't work. so the only ones being penalized are the ones that aren't actually quitting, but getting disconnected.
and before someone says "they are being penalized, for 30 minutes" i would argue its not a penalty if it doesn't hurt. me sending my son to his room for 30 minutes is NOT a penalty. books, guitar, games, tv, radio, internet and bed, all in the room. i'm sure he would look at it as 30 minutes to do something else. which is exactly how i treat current leaver penalty.
This is invaluable information for the devs to know that the current penalty is not near strong enough. Thanks!
i didn't think it mattered for the purpose of this thread. but i quit when completely overwhelmed. i thought i said earlier i don't mind losing. i do mind a one sided fight. and correct me if i'm wrong but are you one of the guys that queues up with a premade, or with a toon thats "optimized" for PvP, bugs and all? you certainly come across that way to me. do you bring your jagged out when losing? from the way you write it seems to me like you are one of the guys in pvp that kills someone then dances on their head, like you actually did something other than buying your way into victory?
i could be totally wrong. but then again... am i?
I play the style I enjoy that is not fotm. That said I play in respect to the idea that not playing optimized means sometimes losing. So it is a balance of what is fun for me and optimization.
I don't dance on dead toons heads. I offer 1v1s and to trade caps when it is a blowout on my side. Even losing should only suck as much as it has to. And if people are doing 1v1s and talking it quite often doesn't suck at all. Its not as ffun as winning but it doesn't have to suck.
I'm the player that will accept 20 deaths in a match and 1 kill if it means we win. Even against vastly overgeared opponents, as long as you keep that node contested as long as possible.
That is why I hate when people quit unless it is an absolute blowout. That kind of blowout is extremely rare against me unless I have leavers or slackers or people who don't know how to play, on my team.
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
The leaver penalty is in and of itself just stupidly implemented. If someone gets a leaver penalty it should only affect the portion of the game it's attached to, not the whole game in itself.
If you leave a PvP match, you should get a 30 minute penalty connected to PvP matches, not for dungeons, skirmishes and everything else.
If you leave a dungeon early and get the penalty, then it should be attached to dungeons and skirmishes. But yet again it's another example of PWE and Cryptic taking the quick and easy path for programming instead of thinking things through and doing it in a more understandable way.
And in case everybody has forgotten, this is a game. We are suppose to be playing for entertainment value, not to work.
And can someone explain to me why the hell the leaver penalty only seems to work for domination and not GG? More people quit out of bad GG matches then anything else now a days.
And it also seems that you get more leaver penalties for disconnects then you get for actually quitting the match. All in all a poor implementation of a half thought out idea.
I've played since mod2 when there was NO penalty for leaving.
Leavers were making the game unplayable.
We begged, pleaded, demanded a stern penalty. We finally got it.
Penalty. Punishment. Pain. Pain good.
Don't even think about going easy on leavers.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
did it actually make PvP better though? or did people still leave, or just campfire sit, which is about the same.
i'm not sure how one is any better for the group than the other. in both cases the team is running short, or not running at all, depending on how many people sit. the other team is either doing nothing, or sitting at the base of the spawn point calling the sitters names. in the end its the same result.
so, how is a leaver penalty helping? Because i really don't think it has.
It's already been explained how it helps. You said you played before there was a penalty...you should know how it helps. More people try MORE often when there is a tough match. When work/effort is required to possibly win, people try instead of leave. Sure, some people still afk or leave but again, people try to get the win a great deal more than when there was no penalty. People would leave if it wasn't a sure EASY win all of the time. If it's a one sided match, peole will still leave or afk. That's all good but the leeches that leave because they can't get easy glory, well, that's bs.
i find it to be about the same now as it was when people could leave with no penalty. the same people that would leave, still leave, for the same reasons.
i'm actually all for:
1: 5 minute stay policy after the gate drops. long enough to try, but short enough to drop out when you just know its a lost cause.
2: autofill until the gate drops (to fill any holes from people leaving)
3: the ability to kick campfire sitters, or bots running up mountains
4: the ability for a dropped connection to maintain the session in the current match. so a dropped connection won't force a penalty and you get to come back to your team
5: PUG vs PUG and PRE vs PRE with no more than 2 guild members/team in a PUG. ONLY.
6: a better method to check grouping. ELO never did work correctly in my opinion.
7: PIPE DREAM. a separate sandbox for PvPers. make it simple. have the devs come up with 1 - 3 of each class each optimized for a different feature set. make them ultimately optimized with BiS and make them selectable during PvP matchmaking. that way they don't need to worry about PvP vs PvE scaling of toons. each person could "bank" their favorite config, cryptic could sell banking slots so if you had your 3 favorite PvP toons to pick from you would need 3 bankslots. that way if you wanted to only do PvP you could with none of that lousy leveling up in PvE. and if you wanted to experiment with PvP, you could, without any of that lousy Leveling up. all equal. like a MOBA with Neverwinter characters.
The part in blue...yea, to me, it's not even close to the same. Easily worse when there was no penalty. I also feel like most of those that wish it were gone were not here when it didn't exist. And a lot of folks who complain about the penalty are really just pissed that the game gives you the boot and you still get the penalty. That's wrong and I think all can agree on that.
The rest of what you wrote, I mostly agree. I would probably change a few things but I'm not a game repair guy. I just play it.
Will definitely be more pushy with this as you're not the only one who has recently brought this up to me. I'll include it in my report to the devs. Thanks!
Perhaps there could be some sort of time limit implemented that would prevent people from just standing by the campfire after the match starts or after respawn. If someone is still standing at the campfire after x amount of time, then they would be auto-kicked from the match with a leaver penalty.
I agree that the leaver penalty after being disconnected stinks. You do seem to get loaded back on the map for a split second before it kicks you out claiming that you never loaded there in the first place. Rude. A fix to this would definitely be appreciated. The suggestion to allow three minutes to reconnect and re-join your PVP map seems pretty reasonable. After the three minutes, you would be unable to rejoin your group and the leaver penalty would apply.
I think it is critical to distinguish between the need for no kick on short dcs and the suggestion some make that there should be no leaver penalty at all. I hope the devs make that distinction.
How many times are we going to have to ask for a fix, any other mmo dev team would have fixed this in the first few days, how are we still waiting 7 weeks in to mod 6, I really can't believe it, if it weren't so sad it would be funny at how laughably incompetant the dev team is at prioritising and fixing the bugs that actually affect gameplay, get your heads on straight, start listening to your community before you lose even more players ffs, this is the N°1 bug in the game, it is a game breaker, FIX IT ALREADY, it is so frustrating to get DC'ed because the game servers suck and get penalised for it by not being able to finish your match, letting down your team, and getting a 30 minute penalty on top of it, it ruins the pvp match for all 10 people involved, do we have to start spamming tickets ingame to get a fix?
How many times are we going to have to ask for a fix, any other mmo devs would have fixed this in the first few days, how are we still waiting 7 weeks in to mod 6, can't believe we are still waiting, if it weren't so sad it would be funny at how laughably incompetant the dev team is at prioritising and fixing the bugs that actually affect gameplay, get your heads on straight, start listening to your community before you lose even more players ffs, this is the N°1 bug in the game, it is a game breaker, FIX IT ALREADY, it is so frustrating to get DC'ed because the game servers suck and get penalised for it by not being able to finish your match, letting down your team, and getting a 30 minute penalty on top of it, it ruins the pvp match for all 10 people involved, do we have to start spamming tickets ingame to get a fix?
Yep. Submit s ticket every single time it happens and be sure to pm a Dev. They are talking big PvP stuff with mod 7, they need to make sure PvP is at least functioning first. Of there is any kind of leaver penalty in stronghold battles people are going to be pretty pissed at losing their guild headquarters because the server fcd them.
That and there is that pvp event coming up soon, it can't be that hard to fix, their fix to kicking created this problem, I am sure they can fix kicking and this if they put their minds to it, c'mon Cryptic we trust that you can fix this asap, don't let your PvP community down ...
Comments
That isn't productive, it is stabbing your team in the back and it is cowardly. If someone says they leave blowout matches when they are a few hundred points behind with no hope if winning that us one thing. But you have stated that cherry picking matches by leaving the ones you don't like is the only way you can win. Counter productive and inexcusable.
This is your most reasoned argument for leaving matches yet. Our stupid argument started when I said quitting ma tches early that are not easy wins is inexecusably bad. You said that is the only way to win. There is a world of difference between quitting lopsided matches when the score is 400-0 and simply quitting a match that is with in 200 points because it is not an easy win.
So which of these is you??? Because a ton of players will quit any match that is not an easy win. And of every five loses I suffer, 3 of them are from idiot pugs who have quit when its not easy or who just don't know how to PvP. They are usually the same people and I have absolutely zero empathy for or tolerance of them.
The best way to avoid idiot pugs on ones team? Form a premade. So the ****heads and quitters can face you and quit or lose and then blame the problem on premades and the matchmaking system.
Or you could just wait for a couple of minutes then queue up to avoid that premade again.
I agree to an extent. The only problem is when a few guildies or friends want to have some fun in pvp together to get away from the mindless slog of pve and then get matched with an actual premade. Not much fun to be had there.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
The system sucks for everybody, even for the winner. Nobody gets decent matches and wastes time standing around. Hence scratching the leaver penalty is an easy way out of the current situation. Again: The number of matches that you currently would love to drop because they are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is vastly superior to the number of matches that would be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> because people have the ability to drop out.
And I don't see the variable I can change to make the situation more appealing. Teaming up and winning alone isn't the answer, you can just effectively exploit a broken system that way in case you still need glory or your Burning gear.
People have offered systems that take care of that. It's a non-factor. If they made Domination the competitive queue you could still go GG with your friends for a good time.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
until then just eliminate the 30 minute leaver penalty so people that honestly get disconnected can come back, and those of us that simply don't like queuing against premades and uber teams can drop and try again.[/QUOTE]
Have you not pvp'd before the implementation of the penalty? You can't get good matches. As soon as it looks like the match will be any type of work, people leave and reQ in hopes of finding an easy match.
Playing a team game as a team is no exploit. It is how you play the game. That is the most basic and easiest to understand thing. The problem is the players more than the game its self.
Still the whole entirely blown mm thing is wrong. There is an ELO. If enough people are quing it will match you against others of similar win loss ratio. If only a few que it will match those few against each other. Anyone who plays a lot of Dom knows that if you que as a premade your odds if running into another premade are much higher. Also the better you do, the harder the matches.
This is why it is a little foolish to enter into these arguments. The premise I am arguing against is faulty.
I can't argue what makes PvP fun. I can tell people what wins matches and they can follow that advice or not. The game is already fun for me. Matches are split between blowouts for or against me, and really close matches. That is fun for me though I'd like to see more close matches. Cryptic is not going to change matchmaking so the best that can be done is for more people to que and play to win.
You didn't answer a pretty straight forward question. Do you quit to get the easy win or do you quit only when a match is unwinnable and lopsided? That is a key question because if you just keep quitting till its an easy win than you and those like you are destroying PvP and really just shouldn't que at all.
So you want to play matches against people of similar gear but not if they are playing the team game as a team. Because you'd rather play the team game solo?
Sounds like you want a game customized just for you, where it is an easy match or you just go home and qq on the forums. If that is the case, please just uninstall. Give some reason why that is not the case.
Meh, there was more of a response I was gonna put but after seeing this and the last paragraph in your last post in this thread, there's no point.
This is invaluable information for the devs to know that the current penalty is not near strong enough. Thanks!
I play the style I enjoy that is not fotm. That said I play in respect to the idea that not playing optimized means sometimes losing. So it is a balance of what is fun for me and optimization.
I don't dance on dead toons heads. I offer 1v1s and to trade caps when it is a blowout on my side. Even losing should only suck as much as it has to. And if people are doing 1v1s and talking it quite often doesn't suck at all. Its not as ffun as winning but it doesn't have to suck.
I'm the player that will accept 20 deaths in a match and 1 kill if it means we win. Even against vastly overgeared opponents, as long as you keep that node contested as long as possible.
That is why I hate when people quit unless it is an absolute blowout. That kind of blowout is extremely rare against me unless I have leavers or slackers or people who don't know how to play, on my team.
I've played since mod2 when there was NO penalty for leaving.
Leavers were making the game unplayable.
We begged, pleaded, demanded a stern penalty. We finally got it.
Penalty. Punishment. Pain. Pain good.
Don't even think about going easy on leavers.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
It's already been explained how it helps. You said you played before there was a penalty...you should know how it helps. More people try MORE often when there is a tough match. When work/effort is required to possibly win, people try instead of leave. Sure, some people still afk or leave but again, people try to get the win a great deal more than when there was no penalty. People would leave if it wasn't a sure EASY win all of the time. If it's a one sided match, peole will still leave or afk. That's all good but the leeches that leave because they can't get easy glory, well, that's bs.
The part in blue...yea, to me, it's not even close to the same. Easily worse when there was no penalty. I also feel like most of those that wish it were gone were not here when it didn't exist. And a lot of folks who complain about the penalty are really just pissed that the game gives you the boot and you still get the penalty. That's wrong and I think all can agree on that.
The rest of what you wrote, I mostly agree. I would probably change a few things but I'm not a game repair guy. I just play it.
WTB Class Reroll please
I agree that the leaver penalty after being disconnected stinks. You do seem to get loaded back on the map for a split second before it kicks you out claiming that you never loaded there in the first place. Rude. A fix to this would definitely be appreciated. The suggestion to allow three minutes to reconnect and re-join your PVP map seems pretty reasonable. After the three minutes, you would be unable to rejoin your group and the leaver penalty would apply.
I think it is critical to distinguish between the need for no kick on short dcs and the suggestion some make that there should be no leaver penalty at all. I hope the devs make that distinction.
Yep. Submit s ticket every single time it happens and be sure to pm a Dev. They are talking big PvP stuff with mod 7, they need to make sure PvP is at least functioning first. Of there is any kind of leaver penalty in stronghold battles people are going to be pretty pissed at losing their guild headquarters because the server fcd them.