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Awareness: State of pvp, sportsmanship and fair competition spirit
denvald
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 702 Arc User
Hello everyone, denvald again.
Something's been on my mind for a while now - Pvp, whose to blame for the bad state of pvp? The devs, the players?
There's a little bit of both, players are often too hasty in blaming devs for the bad state of pvp, when in fact they are the one destroying it.
You following me? That's right. The same people who are quick to blame cryptic for not fixing their bugs and how it breaks the game are oftentimes the ones who willingfully get out in a pvp arena and abuse the bugs themselves. It's the devs fault because you chose to abuse bugs? I think not, you're free to choose, and you chose to exploit.
There are very few legit pvp'ers these days, let alone pvp'ers with a good sportsmanship and spirit of fairness. It's a game of who abuses which bug the first, or running a 5 man premades with all BiS knowing your ennemy team will be a pug with likely low gear. That's not good sportmanship. If everyone goes out there and thinks: well everyone is exploiting anyways so why shouldn't I? You're actually drawing more people to exploiting by 1) showing the bugs to others and they figure out what it is 2) People will feel like it's unfair and try to make up in a way. Then more people will exploit, the cycle goes on. Then what do you get? PvP that's really messed up like you see it today.
Personally? I refused to abuse bugs myself, because I chose so. Yes I'm aware of them and Yes, I still get killed by people exploiting bugs, yes it's frustrating and no I'm not posting them because I already sent messages to devs privately about it, starting by my own class. Because it's the ones I know best. (I'm not as aware of bugs of other classes because I don't know them as much, considering I only play one class I'll let people who play that class give their insight, they know better...)
Open questions/food for thought:
What did you do to improve the spirit of pvp and sportmanship?
Do you enjoy running over pugs with premades and effectively turning new players away from pvp?
Do you exploit or are you legit?
What do you get when you win a game/kill someone exploiting and they were not,satisfaction, pride?
I don't want an answer, you have nothing to prove to me, but you know how you are. If the hat fits you, no shame it's never too late to change. If you are indeed legit and have good spirit - then props to you, you're awesome, and keep it up.
I think it'd be time we all start by being legit before pointing fingers, it's really not giving a good image, nor going anywhere.
There's alot of work to do for pvp to be good - but it has to start somewhere. We cannot control what's going on at cryptic, we can only control what choices we make today. Now make yours.
Discussion open
Cheers
Something's been on my mind for a while now - Pvp, whose to blame for the bad state of pvp? The devs, the players?
There's a little bit of both, players are often too hasty in blaming devs for the bad state of pvp, when in fact they are the one destroying it.
You following me? That's right. The same people who are quick to blame cryptic for not fixing their bugs and how it breaks the game are oftentimes the ones who willingfully get out in a pvp arena and abuse the bugs themselves. It's the devs fault because you chose to abuse bugs? I think not, you're free to choose, and you chose to exploit.
There are very few legit pvp'ers these days, let alone pvp'ers with a good sportsmanship and spirit of fairness. It's a game of who abuses which bug the first, or running a 5 man premades with all BiS knowing your ennemy team will be a pug with likely low gear. That's not good sportmanship. If everyone goes out there and thinks: well everyone is exploiting anyways so why shouldn't I? You're actually drawing more people to exploiting by 1) showing the bugs to others and they figure out what it is 2) People will feel like it's unfair and try to make up in a way. Then more people will exploit, the cycle goes on. Then what do you get? PvP that's really messed up like you see it today.
Personally? I refused to abuse bugs myself, because I chose so. Yes I'm aware of them and Yes, I still get killed by people exploiting bugs, yes it's frustrating and no I'm not posting them because I already sent messages to devs privately about it, starting by my own class. Because it's the ones I know best. (I'm not as aware of bugs of other classes because I don't know them as much, considering I only play one class I'll let people who play that class give their insight, they know better...)
Open questions/food for thought:
What did you do to improve the spirit of pvp and sportmanship?
Do you enjoy running over pugs with premades and effectively turning new players away from pvp?
Do you exploit or are you legit?
What do you get when you win a game/kill someone exploiting and they were not,satisfaction, pride?
I don't want an answer, you have nothing to prove to me, but you know how you are. If the hat fits you, no shame it's never too late to change. If you are indeed legit and have good spirit - then props to you, you're awesome, and keep it up.
I think it'd be time we all start by being legit before pointing fingers, it's really not giving a good image, nor going anywhere.
There's alot of work to do for pvp to be good - but it has to start somewhere. We cannot control what's going on at cryptic, we can only control what choices we make today. Now make yours.
Discussion open
Cheers
I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
Post edited by denvald on
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Comments
Hi!
Alright - lemme ask you a question because it fits in pretty well. I'm a TR. And I'm MI Sab (Since Mod4). In Mod5 the devs reworked the class and changed alot of feats or added new ones. One of these feats was "Shadow Opportunity". This feat adds another 75% weapon damage to your target whenever you deal damage from stealth.
Its a mandatory dps feat in the sabo tree. Now with mod6 the Devs kinda broke this feat and now it can double/triple/quad-proc. I am still using it because the feats you select for MI Sabo havent changed and I don't want to play Scoundrel or Exe because these two path arent as viable as Sabo is (imho).
So what am I now? Because yesterday someone was ranting and cursing at me. Calling me an exploiter. Am I the bad guy now because I haven't switched to Scoundrel or Executioner?
So - ye. Please tell me.
Oh and there's a second thing. My Lifedrinker enchantment. Right now its bugged and it stacks multiple times if I hit multiple targets (1 stack per target). Since mod6 I switched out my Vorpal for the Lifedrinker. I own this enchantment since along time because back in mod5 it was fricking cheap due to no use (2,4mil for a perfect one, like bilethorn right now).
But why did I start using it since mod6? Because of the multiple stacks? No - after the Devs changed the regeneration mechanic I ditched all my regen stats and started stacking lifesteal. I am using lifedrinker because it adds 5% Lifesteal chance to my stats which is mandatory for a TR since you mostly fight alone on the backcap.
So am I an "exploiter" (people actually called me that) because I am using this enchantment?
I also want to point out that there is a difference between the words "Exploiting" and "Bugusing" since people throwing these words here and there. And yes - both words result from mistakes in the program code.
Bugusing:
Bugusing is something where the player actually ONLY uses a power/item because it does something that is not WAI. For example: Mod5 Shadow of Demise and DoT enchantments. Alot of players switched their weapon enchantment for a DoT enchant because it will cause Shadow of Demise to double proc. That is the only reason why they changed the enchant - they didn't do it for the enchantment effects itself.
This is bugusing. There's a thin line between bugusing with intention and without intention.
Exploiting:
Exploiting is actual the intention to break the game mechanic by activly manipulation it. For example you were able to get extra ability roll points from your class race by using certein commands.
As you can see the word "Exploiting" is a way "heavier" word than "bugusing". Exploiters actual want to break a game and get a huge advantage over other players. Bugusers are mostly just jumping on the FotM train.
I hope you'd understand what I was trying to say - because english no nativ :P
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
This is a really really old question with a massive grey area. People have been trying to come to some ethical conclusion about it for what, thousands of years? Is it the flaws in the system or the flaws in the ethics of the people in the system, that is to blame for the problems of the system and those in it?
I tend to refer to the first law of thermodynamics in questions like this. A thing (anything) will always use the least amount of energy (resources) to do what it does. That can be subatomic particles or people in certain socioeconomic tiers or pvp players in an mmo.
There is just no getting past this. Conservation of energy = success. Wasted energy = failure. So I look at it like this: players will always use whatever advantage the system offers. That is far more efficient for them than the alternative. However, the system is broken. It isn't broken because because of overlooked advantages that are not wai, that players take advantage of. It is broken because the system its self wastes resources and one result is the advantages we see the players using. They are forbidden but allowed none the less. That kind of severe contradiction is an indication of a system that wastes resources.
In normal terms what I am saying is that the resources they would put into closing loopholes and making a legit game, would be a more efficient way of them doing what they are trying to do, growing a playerbase that is willing to freely spend money on the game.
So we disagree to an extent. I want everyone to know about the bugs and exploits. To the extent that cryptic can't help but to see the mess right in front of their face, and have to either close up shop or fix it. When you only have a very few who know the bugs and exploits, it is a manageable problem for system designers. They can focus on other things. I don't want them to manage problems, I want them fixed.
But what you are saying and doing and how you roll...don't give up on that ever please lol. We really need players who are honorable (if not even ascetic!) and have the balls to stand up and say what is what. The more widely known the exploits and problems, yes the more people who will use them, but also the more people who will stand up and say they need to go. Specific things, specific bugs and tricks, not the "zomg exploiting guild zomg" which just sounds like qq'ing and to any reader really gets filed in the same nil folder as p2w or "premades are evvilll" arguments.
It is kind of funny that cryptic could solve the whole match making thing by simply using cases themselves. Zero leaderboard and zero rankings means people register with cases and self-report or they don't get to play ranked matches. Them saying, "this is our system use it". Would allow for pvp free for all on one hand but on the other a legit league for serious players to compete in.
However we can draw a distinct line somewhere where it's obvious - let the grey area be grey, and let the black white be so as well.
Someone bought a lifedrinker to exploit it's multi proc property? Black.
Someone is using wheel of elements? Grey
Someone is using a different artifact power than hand of blight? White.
For example, I'm using wheel, because I love the concept of this artifact - the group buffs are extremely useful, the artifact doesnt only benefit you. I know for a fact I like to throw down my artifact and aim my tank (pvp/pve) with the earth aspect and see them restored. Then take fire for myself(I'm a DPS after all). Am i exploiting because I used fire? I don't think so. Can someone think I'm exploiting because Fire is disproportionally powerful in comparison to all artifacts? Probably yes.
My goal was to remind people we're all human beings, and if we all want healthy competition and fairness pvp will be more enjoyable for everyone, and doing that will draw more players to it and make it's popularity grow. The more popularity is given to pvp the more devs are likely to expand it.
How many times did you get roflstomped by a premade BiS? Was it fun? I don't think so. So the BiS premade thinks - will our opponents have fun too? No? Then don't do it. Premades would be amazing if you could choose teams tofight against in some sort of lobby, that would raise competition, but we cant choose or opponents as of today, so the odds are you're gunna fight a pug.
Will my enemy have fun when I use the property of a feat or item to auto-win this match? Probably not, so don't use it.
Ultimately it can come down to this: Empathy and thinking about others. Will they have fun in this pvp game? Yes, or no? If it's a yes I don think there's a problem, but if you answer no then rethink your approach.
That's my two cents about it, I'm not gunna force anyone to do anything, I just wanted to raise awareness that pvp-lovers should be making it grow not destroying it. And that includes others not just the player himself.
I'm not asking everyone to play with the white mentality mentionned above just because I do, but I think if players start thinking reciprocity and minding the fun of others we'll have a better pvp community.
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
That's a conclusion I can definitly live with
You all are right though, there's very little control we have on what players will and will not use. But Cryptic can bring the fields together. I think overall the condition improved since mod 5 (Aside from the high amount of bugs, if you remove those the pvp is more fair and enjoyable now) than it was in mod 5. There's some bug fixes to do, then some tweaking to do. Then we can consider the options from there...
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
This is a great post. I want to really emphasize how huge a lobby system would be for the pvp community. People que as groups or solo and could invite/request to join. When full a group could pick another full group to challenge and the challenged group would of course have the option to accept or refuse the challenge.
If you didn't know it was broken, you cannot be blamed for it. But once you know about it, and still choose to use it, then basically there is no excuse, no "grey area" of any sort. Of course the other guy does not know what your intentions are, only you yourself knows it. So it's at that point it becomes a problem of self respect, discipline, and honor.
Is there really nothing that bothers you in your mind, while lying to the forums/boards that "oh no, I don't use broken stuff, I'm legit"...and then in reality actually exploit the hell out of a known bug? If there's nothing, then congrats, you're a sociopath. If you cannot do such, then your pride is higher than your need to cheat to win a mere game... so you keep yourself straight and go the path of self-regulation (a.k.a. self gimping).
But at least your conscience is clear, and it does satisfy a certain amount of your self respect knowing that there are others who would actively cheat and lie about these things. For guys like me, it's hard to understand what drives some people to exploit things like the AH and AD to get such BiS gear so fast and actively destroy the entire balance of the game by forming a "l33T" group that would crush everything in its path. All you get with that much cheating is a boring, non-contest where the opponent sits by the campfire, and do nothing but type emotes. Or what kind of pride they feel when they exploit a known bug to win. The very fact that they had to use a bug to win? That's a shameful loss in my book.
In this aspect, I guess I'm an extremist in terms of PvP ethics. You abuse a bug knowingly, and you're filth. No grey area for me at all. If you can't self-gimp yourself and not use the bug, then you're weak willed and have no self respect.
Things are a bit trickier for OP mechanics I guess. I don't consider it the same way as using a bug, nor would I demand someone to not use it. In that case I'd fault the devs, more than anyone else. But IMO that doesn't mean you have no responsibility in making the PvP scene worse off for others. If there's a "grey area" this would be it.
If everyone would act like that - the pvp community would improve alot IMO
Keep it up:cool:
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
This game has enormous potential for becoming the best pvp mmo on the market. Infighting lowers the odds of that happening. If that's all the devs see when reading the boards, they get no serious motivation to change things.
If the potential for this game is realized and acted upon, more will come and join. Word gets around.
"Build it and they will come."
If you're going to quote something at least get it right
"If you build it t(he)y will come."
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
I stand as a legit PvP dude. Even if I knew the exploits I would not do it. I am not a perma-stealth built TR... I chose to be a WK/Sab. My mentor and shadow sister, is not a perma-stealth TR despite being a MI/Sab.
I personally enjoy the single combat of contesting a node with ONE opposing player. I dislike when people jump in on either side, but... it is all in the game. I take my lumps looking for players who will stand up and be counted. Anyone can kill, but not many can run by someone who is weakened.
I will always PvP with honor.
To be honest, bein' cool in pvp is gettin' to be tiresome. I've always treated PvP as a sport. Show respect, give compliments and always remember there is always a real person on the other end...but it's getting old. I think people are just so pissed off at the game they are taking it out on the players. While it's true we cannot control what cryptic does, the players here that are trying to improve QoL in pvp will not be able to do enough. QoL is ultimately Cryptic's responsibility. I feel if they don't get on with improvements, this game might not be able to recover.
Let me be realistic. Spirit of ethics, is like the Revolution. No matter how high your ideals, in the end its the side that gets the support of the military that decides the outcome. If the military and its soldiers support the people, then the revolution succeeds and things are changed. If the military stays loyalist, then the people are branded as rebels and traitors and the revolution is crushed.
...in other words, for a moral/ethics campaign like this to succeed, you need support from "PvP GUILDS". They are the 'big guns' of the community with power to sway opinions for a lot of people... and not just one of those famous people/guilds, but a lot of them in a coalition. Usually, when these guys are willing to cooperate, it works.
If they don't, then what happens is a bunch of good hearted, faithful people in PuG levels just getting even more easily slaughtered by those who abuse broken stuff.
Hahahha, a TR saying he has honor.
this was a nice evening laugh, thanks man.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
WTB Class Reroll please
You doubt me?
I chose Whisperknife for a reason. Read up on what the Whisperknife class means... in the wiki. I do not attack unless I am attacked... even then I may not... because it is usually 3 to 5 on one. Something about hanging up like a pinata takes the fight right out of you.
You need to stop responding to these people that assign attributes to your real life character by what class you play. They are not right in the head
+10000000000
I did that to meet the 10 char minimum.
jhp
That's a particularly pertinent exploit you bring up, as it was on the back of it that many of the top PVPers got their gear and unlimited funds they still use today. They got a week suspension for the ones who were caught, and even those were allowed to keep their ill gotten gains on return. Most games if you don't get perma-banned for such a thing, you would at the very least get stat and belongings wipe and have to start over. To this day I still don't understand why Cryptic made this decision that still haunts us today and makes PVP something of a sham. There is a reason many top pvp guilds are totally ok with and actually encourage the use of exploits/bugs. Many were founded by the very folks who did this and many other exploits to create their fortune and the monsters they field in battle. They don't support this game, in fact they work actively to tear it down around us.
We all know PvP match balance s*cks big, hairy, black ballz.
Now, today i was arguing on my HR about the need in a GG match to swarm lone players who are just dojng nothing/ not fighting once your team is winning by 1000 points and the enemy stopped fighting.
I also always try, in domination, to talk to my team mates when my team is winning and they start spawn camping and swarming 5v1 every single enemy that dares coming out of spawn.
Now i know humans are monkeys and so it's natural for them to g*angbang every vulnerable being they meet.
But does that kind of behaviour help to create a good PvP environment, when all players do is trying to trample over other players and, when they have a chance, trying to make the game as frustrating as they can for the opposite side?
Very few good players actually stop attacking non-fighting enemies and try to come up with something more enjoyable like, for example, arranged 1v1s.
The replies you get when pointing this out is the usual "get stronger" "stop whining" if you're losing, or "why?" if you try to tell the same thing to your mates when you're winning.
So, since players are pretty much too similar to monkeys when it comes to this kind of stuff, i think it's up to the devs to FORCEFULLY create a fair PvP environment.
My ideas:
- Auto-balance during games. One team winning too much, game scrambles teams to balance much like team fortress 2
- Quitter penalty with added AD loss for quitting a game. If you get disconnected you can reconnect, and at the end of the match you must have been active (not disconnected) for at least 90% of the duration of the match. Game pauses when someone gets disconnected (can fight but score is blocked till the disconnected players reconnects)
or
- when a team is winning for, say, at least 200 points in domination and 500 points in GG, a function activates that allow players to get damage only from 1 source at a time. Which means, if i am alone and i meet 10 enemies who want to swarm me like a pack of rabid dogs, only the 1st one hitting me can inflict damage. The others hit for 0 until the fight is over. Same goes for my team.
Pretty much, a forced 1v1 system when the match has gone to hell.
Or you can keep the current toxic PvP environment where the strong tramples the weak or the winning side makes the experience frustrating for the losing side.
But then don't get surprised if only few players stay or if players quit even when you put a leaver penalty into the game.
Cause one thing is keep fighting when you can actually fight. Another thing is forcing players to stay and play or sit in spawn for 10 minutes doing nothing cause PvP games are often unbalanced and when that happens it's usually a 1-sided slaughter where any player who tries to get off the spawn is helplessly swarmed by a pack of enemies hungry for a free kill.
If players have no sportmanship and can't refrain from making the experience frustrating for the losing side, it's up to the game to forcefully create a fair and non-frustrating PvP environment.
Just my point of view. I know some players are for the "you lose, i have the right to make it as frustrating as i can for you". These players are also usually the ones who quit when their team is losing.
Just disable team queueing for the major PvP matches and the balance issue is more or less settled, perhaps with systematic tools to "spread out" people according to IL or something. Within the hands of total random queues, sure, shi* happens, but just as match good matches also happen. If I queue for 10 matches in a day and have maybe 3~4 of them were good enough I'd consider that a success.
IMO, premade queueing is the equivalent of "rigging the match", so to speak, to fek with the random odds, as it ensures that a team, by definition, always has a certain amount of player quality ensured. In this aspect I find the total, chaotic randomness of solo queueing the most fair method by far. Sometimes it is well matched, sometimes you're the only one who can carry the entire team of suckarses to victory, sometimes you're the weakest link ,sometimes the enemy is overwhelming, sometimes the team composition is good, sometimes it is bad.. etc etc..
That's "fair" in my opinion. Any number of random situations where you need to adapt to and try make best of it, instead of being protected inside a greenhouse, always with babysitters behind your back. Solo's the way to go, and to enforce, in my book.
...and no, don't act as if premades are fine. Everyone knows what's happening in GG nowadays, where the initial days of "fun time" is now all but dead, as it is now infested with premade feks wanting easy wins, making it the dullest, most stupid and boring match after match, whether they be at your side, or the enemies.
Like I said, the premades have more or less proven themselves that the "we just want good fair matches on our level" statements are totally bullshi*. PuGs have effectively moved over to GG now -- any premade queueing for Domination now has more chance than ever to meet another premade and fight for 90 minutes straight in a slugfest with DCs and OPs where nobody dies. Stalemate is boring? Guess what, that's what happens when you fight those are equal to you, not weaker.
But no, they've avoided that. They chose to invade where the PuGs have moved to.
Lying through their teeth. Snakes and worms.
Yes, PvP premades outgear PuGs 99,9% of the time. Maybe some of them exploited bugs, but dont paint all with one brush.
First of all, the only times, in onesided matches, I ever had 1v1 fights after I wrote 'GG', was against premades. Against PuGs, there is at last one more ***** attacking you, no matter what, in a '1v1'. A few days ago I fought 1v1 against a premade and his mates attacked me a few times. I complained and he answered 'sorry, should not have happened, they tried to attack one of your team trying to jump in'.
Second, I understand ppl who dont want to fight in a PuG team, bc ELO does not work at all ATM. It does not matter, if I que with a 3,5k IL full burning PvP set, R9+ char or a 2,3k IL char. I get qued with/ against ppl between 1k IL to 4,5K+ BIS gear. This is not just 'premades' fault, but cryptics. I qued solo at the same time with 3 friends, me full burning PvP set, 3,5k IL, one of them full burning PvP set, 4k IL, playing some PvP and two other friends with PvE gear and 2-2,6k IL. Guess what. ELO grouped me and the 4k IL guy against one of the PvE players, who got grouped with similar bad geared players. Me and PuG players against the 4k guy and PuG players, fair fight. The two of us against low gear PuGs and our friend, we crushed them. Matchmaking does not work.
PuG que: You either stomp the enemy or you are alone on mid, maybe with one other poor sob, while your team caps home with 3+ ppl. No one likes to lose and after 5+ matches, getting killed 2-4v1 by ppl with less skill and/or gear, bc your team sucks and is either AFK, DCed or fights with 4 ppl on home, the reasoning for a premade que is quite solid.