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[Feedback] Complete Compilation of Great Weapon Fighter Module 6 Status
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
Ill start this by saying this is my opinion based on my experience playing a GWF since the Open Beta of this game. I have seen it all really, from being a PVE Hero in the early days to at one point being ranked #1 on the Leaderboards 100% legit (no kicking, Elo exploiting) in PVP during module 3 and all that has happened both inbetween and since that time.
I will say now that the Great Weapon Fighter is a shell of the FUN of the class that is used to be. I am not here to say the class is not performing well in PVE (I think it is but for the WRONG reasons) and I am not here to say it isnt performing well in PVP (Again I think it performs well HOWEVER again - wrong reasons).
The crux of the issue surrounding the GWF boils down to ONE fundamental issue really. This has been MORE than well documented and MORE than enough feedback has been given to support this issue. It also WILL cause MAJOR issues for Console GWF players and is why when I get asked which class people should play on the Xbox I always say anything BUT a GWF. What is it?
Unlike ANY other class, the Great Weapon Fighter MUST rely FAR too much on + Damage Stacking feats and abilities to deal ADEQUATE damage.
This is a MAJOR issue that makes it NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE to determine the true "balance" or "effectiveness" of the class.
Why?
Because in PVE - it is easy to gain and maintain the damage stacks. IN PVP - if facing not so skilled opponants it is ALSO easy to gain and maintain damage stacks. However what this LEADS to is a class that is NOT as fun to play as it could be or USED to be.
In PVE you feel like you hardly ever get "off the ground" with building up those stacks. Typically the mobs are either dead by the time you really "get going" OR YOU are dead because a mob (or three) hit you for 50% of your life (which x3 = 150%). IN PVP against GOOD players that know not to "face tank" a GWF, you will almost NEVER be at "full damage capacity"
Again, it causes a MASSIVE problem when trying to determine "balance" and I would strongly challenge the DEVs and the QA team to this.
What am I advocating for? Change. But not NEW Change, in all honestly there is enough "diversity" in abilities in the game you can literally "copy/paste" the change from other classes that are doing things well.
I wont go into the WHY behind everything, I will give a snippet on the brief of the issue and then what I believe would be positive changes here. Not to make the class STRONGER but to make the class MORE FUN to play and "EVEN OUT" the playing experience so the GWF plays the same in both Easy and Hard PVE content as well as Low Tier PVP and High Tier PVP.
One of the biggest suggestions has been to REMOVE all the damage stacking, or make it EASIER to get. While I agree with this 100% and would support this 100% I know this is a LARGE task at hand that we are asking so RATHER than doing that, I would suggest some changes to some abilities that would be more or less Copied from other classes.
I will start with the bigger issues FIRST:
1) Unstoppable - This "Damage Resistance" buff needs to be FLAT 30% - NOT dependent upon how full determination bar is, and needs to be on its OWN level of "damage Resistance" just like GF block, OP "aura" and CW "Shield". This ONE change alone makes the Sentinel class MUCH more viable. I would also add that Temp HP gained should also be a FLAT 30% (15% in PVP) INSTEAD of a number that scales based on determination and damage bonus. The true benefit of being MORE determination is that it lasts longer. We get DR longer, faster attacks longer etc. We dont need MORE DR that ALSO lasts longer. That just hurts FAR too much because its what our entire class is BUILT around. It just needs to be FLAT bonuses that no NOT scale. A TR (for instance) isnt MORE powerful the more stealth they have. A GF doesnt block MORE damage the more block meter they have....
Those things make the unique class ability LAST LONGER. Same should be here... IT should MERELY last longer.
2) Destroyer's Purpose - Stacks need to be "attainable" OUTSIDE unstoppable. In all honesty, I would Decrease the duration of the stacks to 10 seconds but allow for ANY attack to build a stack inside or outside unstoppable. Doesnt matter. This makes it NOT contigent upon the "catch 22" of the GWF. (Want to gain stacks? must be unstoppable. Want to be unstoppable? with no damage bonus you deal no damage therefore must TAKE damage. Want to take damage? You need agro. Want agro? You need to deal damage. Want to deal damage? Need to gain stacks. Catch 22.... Repeat.)
I would even be FINE with dropping the 10% encounter damage boost just so we can get better access to this. What this means tho is inbetween fights the stacks may fall off so its in the GWFs best interest to chain "opponents" to keep them up. 10 seconds is very fair IMO. Its easy enough to keep in combat but not so much that you can really "rest" outside combat. In fact comnat being 8 seconds almost ties it to "inside" combat with a very small window of stacks staying up outside combat.
3) Instigator's Vengeance - This feat needs to be ONE buff that does NOT stack. PERIOD. You get hit. You gain a 50% damage bonus. Lasts 6 seconds. Instigators have virtually NO "control" over being hit to gain these stacks however getting hit ONCE? That is fairly easy to accomplish.
This makes this ENTIRE TREE much more appealing. The damage is now more reliable (it still suffers from other things). I would even look at adding something to this tree involving stamina or sprinting as well - since thats the path its supposed to benefit. Maybe "While this buff is active, gain 10% faster stamina regen". Just SOMETHING.
Or another idea (See Battle Fury below) would be to give a Bonus to Battle Fury - like Sentinel does to Restoring Strike.
4) Focused Destroyer /Destroyer (feat) - This is probably he BANE of my existence really (maybe right behind Shadowy Opportunity). I cannot tell you what is MORE frustrating than this feat in PVP. Its too good NOT to have but its SO frustrating to play with.
Solutions include: Chance to gain off ANY attack bumped to 100% on Focused Destroyer.
OR treat this like the GF feat: "Tactical Superiority" So "Destroyer" the BASE class feature would instead be: "When dealing damage to more than 3 enemies, gain a 9% damage boost, lasts 5 seconds. Ranks: +9%. This makes it the SAME overall damage but removes the "stacking" that is required. The Focused feat in Destroyer can still do the 25% chance to gain and also buff the TOTAL damage of the feat as well.
I am MUCH more in favor of ZERO stacking. If you need to nerf the damage TOTAL this feature/feat combo gives, fine with me, but this is really one of THE most frustrating things in this game.
JUST TO BE CLEAR: Destroyer the Class Feature Now is a FLAT damage buff Post attacking 3+ enemies (similar to how Combat Superiority on GFs is a flat damage bonus after being struck) So the Ability grants 9% more damage for 4-5 seconds after being struck. Additional ranks add another +9% damage for a total of 9%*4 (at rank 4)= 36% damage bonus after striking more than 3 targets. Lasts 4-5 seconds.
THEN, Focused Destroyer can come in and give a 25% chance to proc off ANY attack as well as increase the total damage by 3.5% (as it does now). The only difference is instead of 3.5% PER STACK, its just a FLAT 3.5% MEANING and overall nerf to damage at the MAXIMUM capacity however MUCH MUCH easier to get the buff since its just a flat buff and NOT a stackable buff now.
5) Hidden Daggers - Really? In order for us to be effective we HAVE to use this encounter because it gives a STACKABLE +40% damage boost? The +damage boost need to be REMOVED from this and added to another ability that is VERY under whelming and I will make that NEXT. Also PLEASE PLEASE REMOVE the "backwards lunge" of this ability, its SO counter productive to the class its not even funny.
IF THIS IS TO STAY AS IS: You need to remove any movement restrictions to this ability and it needs to work nearly similar to "ITF" for GFs, you can cast without interrupting movement speed so a GWF can be running and spamming AoE daggers at the same time. The lack of mobility and backwards lunge this encounter creates is just anti-synergistic and NOT fun.
6) Battle Fury - This needs to be given literally a Copy/Paste from Into the Fray (GF encounter) and I would make ONE note... Make Battle Fury NOT stack with Into the Fray and vice versa. Heck I would even Advocate FOR replacing this with ITF. That way no extra coding is needed! These classes are "bother" classes and Battle Fury should provide the GWF (and his team) with the damage buff we took FROM "Hidden Daggers". This should ALSO provide the movement speed, temp HP as well as damage bonus. This alleviates MANY of the GWF issues that the GF would face without this: Party utility, run speed is CRUCIAL and a better increase to "base damage" with something that doesnt require "stacking" per se. But is a flat buff that alleviates some of the other issues.
7) Punishing Charge - Again, this needs to be "Copy/Paste" from the GF/HR abilities - Boar and Bull Charge. I would suggest Boar Charge so this ability is a SHORT dash that prones the target( or even stuns) Period. This alleviates also some of the "mobility issues" of the GWF offering ONE option to others like FLS/Takedown. This makes it so not all GWF builds are alike. REMOVE the stacking, just let this be a 8sec ish CD, prones the target with a short dash. DONE.
8) Grand Fissure - This ability is SO lackluster its not even funny..... It WAS pretty good on the PTR, dealt nearly as much damage as IBS. This needs to MATCH the damage that "Restoring Strike" deals (copy and paste the damage formula) but THEN let it act like Anvil of Doom in that id deals DOUBLE damage to players <40% HP. This has a LONG animation as well as a VERY SMALL actual "hit box" meaning you really gotta time it right - along with a BIG CD... So its gotta be a heavy hitter if its to be useful. Now a player can use a more "reliable" IBS, or an easier to dodge "Fissure" where Fissure does less damage over 40% but will hit harder than IBS <40% (since damage is doubled).
Honestly these changes would not change the classes effectiveness in PVE AT ALL! So everything says balanced there - should require VERY LITTLE testing. Notice nothing is a "BUFF" flat out.
What these changes do is alleviate some of the issues with the FUN of the class
So what have we done?
- Alleviated the PAIN of the "Stacking" required for damage for ALL GWFs (Both Instigator and Destroyer).
- Made Sentinel a valuable path again (by Unstop DR on its own layer - right now its useless)
- Alleviated the crux of the melee fighter via - Punishing Charge change + Battle Fury Change.
- removed the necessity of hidden daggers AND the painful "animation" that HURTS the GWF.
Now we have THREE paths that are ALL Viable. We have a class that is BOTH PC and Console friendly AND is MUCH more fun to play WITHOUT causing ANY balance issues because we didnt fundamentally CHANGE anything. We sliced and diced the powers/feats around to provide an overall better QoL without adding a total increase in damage to any path. We just made the experience a more "level" experience which before it was: NO stacks: HORRIBLE MAX STACKS: Godmode. To a more middle ground of GOOD.
UPDATE: After discussion in this thread, here is a more detailed post about some OTHER encounters/abilities that could easily be re-worked to provide more options for both encounters as well as builds: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?930811-Feedback-Complete-Compilation-of-Great-Weapon-Fighter-Module-6-Status&p=11037771&viewfull=1#post11037771
I will say now that the Great Weapon Fighter is a shell of the FUN of the class that is used to be. I am not here to say the class is not performing well in PVE (I think it is but for the WRONG reasons) and I am not here to say it isnt performing well in PVP (Again I think it performs well HOWEVER again - wrong reasons).
The crux of the issue surrounding the GWF boils down to ONE fundamental issue really. This has been MORE than well documented and MORE than enough feedback has been given to support this issue. It also WILL cause MAJOR issues for Console GWF players and is why when I get asked which class people should play on the Xbox I always say anything BUT a GWF. What is it?
Unlike ANY other class, the Great Weapon Fighter MUST rely FAR too much on + Damage Stacking feats and abilities to deal ADEQUATE damage.
This is a MAJOR issue that makes it NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE to determine the true "balance" or "effectiveness" of the class.
Why?
Because in PVE - it is easy to gain and maintain the damage stacks. IN PVP - if facing not so skilled opponants it is ALSO easy to gain and maintain damage stacks. However what this LEADS to is a class that is NOT as fun to play as it could be or USED to be.
In PVE you feel like you hardly ever get "off the ground" with building up those stacks. Typically the mobs are either dead by the time you really "get going" OR YOU are dead because a mob (or three) hit you for 50% of your life (which x3 = 150%). IN PVP against GOOD players that know not to "face tank" a GWF, you will almost NEVER be at "full damage capacity"
Again, it causes a MASSIVE problem when trying to determine "balance" and I would strongly challenge the DEVs and the QA team to this.
What am I advocating for? Change. But not NEW Change, in all honestly there is enough "diversity" in abilities in the game you can literally "copy/paste" the change from other classes that are doing things well.
I wont go into the WHY behind everything, I will give a snippet on the brief of the issue and then what I believe would be positive changes here. Not to make the class STRONGER but to make the class MORE FUN to play and "EVEN OUT" the playing experience so the GWF plays the same in both Easy and Hard PVE content as well as Low Tier PVP and High Tier PVP.
One of the biggest suggestions has been to REMOVE all the damage stacking, or make it EASIER to get. While I agree with this 100% and would support this 100% I know this is a LARGE task at hand that we are asking so RATHER than doing that, I would suggest some changes to some abilities that would be more or less Copied from other classes.
I will start with the bigger issues FIRST:
1) Unstoppable - This "Damage Resistance" buff needs to be FLAT 30% - NOT dependent upon how full determination bar is, and needs to be on its OWN level of "damage Resistance" just like GF block, OP "aura" and CW "Shield". This ONE change alone makes the Sentinel class MUCH more viable. I would also add that Temp HP gained should also be a FLAT 30% (15% in PVP) INSTEAD of a number that scales based on determination and damage bonus. The true benefit of being MORE determination is that it lasts longer. We get DR longer, faster attacks longer etc. We dont need MORE DR that ALSO lasts longer. That just hurts FAR too much because its what our entire class is BUILT around. It just needs to be FLAT bonuses that no NOT scale. A TR (for instance) isnt MORE powerful the more stealth they have. A GF doesnt block MORE damage the more block meter they have....
Those things make the unique class ability LAST LONGER. Same should be here... IT should MERELY last longer.
2) Destroyer's Purpose - Stacks need to be "attainable" OUTSIDE unstoppable. In all honesty, I would Decrease the duration of the stacks to 10 seconds but allow for ANY attack to build a stack inside or outside unstoppable. Doesnt matter. This makes it NOT contigent upon the "catch 22" of the GWF. (Want to gain stacks? must be unstoppable. Want to be unstoppable? with no damage bonus you deal no damage therefore must TAKE damage. Want to take damage? You need agro. Want agro? You need to deal damage. Want to deal damage? Need to gain stacks. Catch 22.... Repeat.)
I would even be FINE with dropping the 10% encounter damage boost just so we can get better access to this. What this means tho is inbetween fights the stacks may fall off so its in the GWFs best interest to chain "opponents" to keep them up. 10 seconds is very fair IMO. Its easy enough to keep in combat but not so much that you can really "rest" outside combat. In fact comnat being 8 seconds almost ties it to "inside" combat with a very small window of stacks staying up outside combat.
3) Instigator's Vengeance - This feat needs to be ONE buff that does NOT stack. PERIOD. You get hit. You gain a 50% damage bonus. Lasts 6 seconds. Instigators have virtually NO "control" over being hit to gain these stacks however getting hit ONCE? That is fairly easy to accomplish.
This makes this ENTIRE TREE much more appealing. The damage is now more reliable (it still suffers from other things). I would even look at adding something to this tree involving stamina or sprinting as well - since thats the path its supposed to benefit. Maybe "While this buff is active, gain 10% faster stamina regen". Just SOMETHING.
Or another idea (See Battle Fury below) would be to give a Bonus to Battle Fury - like Sentinel does to Restoring Strike.
4) Focused Destroyer /Destroyer (feat) - This is probably he BANE of my existence really (maybe right behind Shadowy Opportunity). I cannot tell you what is MORE frustrating than this feat in PVP. Its too good NOT to have but its SO frustrating to play with.
Solutions include: Chance to gain off ANY attack bumped to 100% on Focused Destroyer.
OR treat this like the GF feat: "Tactical Superiority" So "Destroyer" the BASE class feature would instead be: "When dealing damage to more than 3 enemies, gain a 9% damage boost, lasts 5 seconds. Ranks: +9%. This makes it the SAME overall damage but removes the "stacking" that is required. The Focused feat in Destroyer can still do the 25% chance to gain and also buff the TOTAL damage of the feat as well.
I am MUCH more in favor of ZERO stacking. If you need to nerf the damage TOTAL this feature/feat combo gives, fine with me, but this is really one of THE most frustrating things in this game.
JUST TO BE CLEAR: Destroyer the Class Feature Now is a FLAT damage buff Post attacking 3+ enemies (similar to how Combat Superiority on GFs is a flat damage bonus after being struck) So the Ability grants 9% more damage for 4-5 seconds after being struck. Additional ranks add another +9% damage for a total of 9%*4 (at rank 4)= 36% damage bonus after striking more than 3 targets. Lasts 4-5 seconds.
THEN, Focused Destroyer can come in and give a 25% chance to proc off ANY attack as well as increase the total damage by 3.5% (as it does now). The only difference is instead of 3.5% PER STACK, its just a FLAT 3.5% MEANING and overall nerf to damage at the MAXIMUM capacity however MUCH MUCH easier to get the buff since its just a flat buff and NOT a stackable buff now.
5) Hidden Daggers - Really? In order for us to be effective we HAVE to use this encounter because it gives a STACKABLE +40% damage boost? The +damage boost need to be REMOVED from this and added to another ability that is VERY under whelming and I will make that NEXT. Also PLEASE PLEASE REMOVE the "backwards lunge" of this ability, its SO counter productive to the class its not even funny.
IF THIS IS TO STAY AS IS: You need to remove any movement restrictions to this ability and it needs to work nearly similar to "ITF" for GFs, you can cast without interrupting movement speed so a GWF can be running and spamming AoE daggers at the same time. The lack of mobility and backwards lunge this encounter creates is just anti-synergistic and NOT fun.
6) Battle Fury - This needs to be given literally a Copy/Paste from Into the Fray (GF encounter) and I would make ONE note... Make Battle Fury NOT stack with Into the Fray and vice versa. Heck I would even Advocate FOR replacing this with ITF. That way no extra coding is needed! These classes are "bother" classes and Battle Fury should provide the GWF (and his team) with the damage buff we took FROM "Hidden Daggers". This should ALSO provide the movement speed, temp HP as well as damage bonus. This alleviates MANY of the GWF issues that the GF would face without this: Party utility, run speed is CRUCIAL and a better increase to "base damage" with something that doesnt require "stacking" per se. But is a flat buff that alleviates some of the other issues.
7) Punishing Charge - Again, this needs to be "Copy/Paste" from the GF/HR abilities - Boar and Bull Charge. I would suggest Boar Charge so this ability is a SHORT dash that prones the target( or even stuns) Period. This alleviates also some of the "mobility issues" of the GWF offering ONE option to others like FLS/Takedown. This makes it so not all GWF builds are alike. REMOVE the stacking, just let this be a 8sec ish CD, prones the target with a short dash. DONE.
8) Grand Fissure - This ability is SO lackluster its not even funny..... It WAS pretty good on the PTR, dealt nearly as much damage as IBS. This needs to MATCH the damage that "Restoring Strike" deals (copy and paste the damage formula) but THEN let it act like Anvil of Doom in that id deals DOUBLE damage to players <40% HP. This has a LONG animation as well as a VERY SMALL actual "hit box" meaning you really gotta time it right - along with a BIG CD... So its gotta be a heavy hitter if its to be useful. Now a player can use a more "reliable" IBS, or an easier to dodge "Fissure" where Fissure does less damage over 40% but will hit harder than IBS <40% (since damage is doubled).
Honestly these changes would not change the classes effectiveness in PVE AT ALL! So everything says balanced there - should require VERY LITTLE testing. Notice nothing is a "BUFF" flat out.
What these changes do is alleviate some of the issues with the FUN of the class
So what have we done?
- Alleviated the PAIN of the "Stacking" required for damage for ALL GWFs (Both Instigator and Destroyer).
- Made Sentinel a valuable path again (by Unstop DR on its own layer - right now its useless)
- Alleviated the crux of the melee fighter via - Punishing Charge change + Battle Fury Change.
- removed the necessity of hidden daggers AND the painful "animation" that HURTS the GWF.
Now we have THREE paths that are ALL Viable. We have a class that is BOTH PC and Console friendly AND is MUCH more fun to play WITHOUT causing ANY balance issues because we didnt fundamentally CHANGE anything. We sliced and diced the powers/feats around to provide an overall better QoL without adding a total increase in damage to any path. We just made the experience a more "level" experience which before it was: NO stacks: HORRIBLE MAX STACKS: Godmode. To a more middle ground of GOOD.
UPDATE: After discussion in this thread, here is a more detailed post about some OTHER encounters/abilities that could easily be re-worked to provide more options for both encounters as well as builds: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?930811-Feedback-Complete-Compilation-of-Great-Weapon-Fighter-Module-6-Status&p=11037771&viewfull=1#post11037771
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Yeah exaclty. When you compare the base damage of classes GWF has the LOWEST and its BECAUSE he has the ability to gain all these stacks. In reality tho all we do is have a painful mechanic of gaining damage bonus which then allows us to do ON PAR damage with everyone else.
My IBSs dont even hit as hard as a GFs "Anvil of Doom" for instance. Even with maxed stacks. I am 4,700 item level and in PVP the best IBS crit ive gotten was about 70k on a non-tenacity target where as I have seen Anvil hit me THROUGH negation stacks, tenacity, and Unstoppable for 70k.... Thats beside the point though.
It comes back to FUN and FRUSTRATION.
I cant tell you how many times I think, Oh! I want to FLS->IBS this guy, so I throw a daggers to get my +40% damage bonus, I then start to sprint towards him (because daggers created a gap) to realize I used all my sprint getting to him initially.....
I then notice that because of the few second delay, and the windup of IBS and the ONE hit "credit" I get for FLS there is only about a 25% ill get a "Destroyer" stack proc off that FLS so I need to "at will" him 2-3 times to make sure I get my Destroyer stacks to refresh or I lose them.
By the time I have at willed 2-3x He blinks away, I need to FLS->Sprint->IBS....
Its just NOT FUN feeling like I have to BATTLE MYSELF to keep my stacks up.
NO OTHER CLASS has to deal with this type of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Look at a TR who gets most of their damage coming from a feat (Shadowy Opp) that pierces and allows them to at will spam?! I mean imagine if instead of Destroyer stacks giving 50% damage boost, instead WE dealt 50% more damage as "piercing damage".... GG the forums would FLOOD with tears....
Anyways the issue is FUN. MMOs should be FUN! Not this constant battle of "the game of stacks". My TR point was to merely show this isnt "L2P bro" or "skill" its just flat out a bad mechanic that was patched ontop of the class and its a patch over a patch over a patch..... I think NOW is the time to remove the "patches" and actually fix the CORE issue and make the class FUN again.
Especially now with Console players... Imagine playing an xbox controller trying to use Daggers then sprint to keep stacks up (Destroyer) and only having a 25% chance to refresh your stack and you only have a 4 second window to do ALL that..... Its not fun.
I'm not worried as much about our damage in the ring, without a p.negation at least an average geared GWF will just die instantly and at best will be able to pop 1 unstopabble and run for his life. We need survivability, and plenty of it, fast. We're primary strikers, melees, off-tanks and yet a CW with shield on tab and negation can tank better than a fully geared GWF in PVP.
Great thread as always Ayro, I value your opinion greatly. I would like to pvp with you if you have time some day.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
I've always found this really stupid, BIG GIANT GREATSWORD... hits like a wet noodle. I liked your suggestion in the other thread also of lowering our damage bonuses we get from skills/stacks, and increasing our base damage by a proportionate amount, That'd also make sentinel more viable / strong as an increase in base damage means they can deal enough damage too still be viable as they do not get all the destroyer stacks. a general increase in encounter damage (and a bit of a buff to intimidation) would also do wonders for sentinel.
I really do hope you get some sort of response sometime. even if its a "no, we like it how the class is, and this is why" at least then we'd have an understanding of the views perceived of the class.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Has nothing to do with QQ. And I agree about the tank part, I think the change to Unstoppable @ 30% on its OWN layer would alleviate PART of that. OR at the LEAST it would be something that a Sent would have a HUGE advantage in since they would have 80% DR in their own "layer" which is the SAME as a GF blocking. So you would see a massive damage decrease there...
Now a Destroyer? Well ya,. you might need a Neg enchant to survive. But I look at a few things.
1) You would have a "lunge" encounter that prones. Pretty good IMO.
2) You would also have an "ITF" encounter which gives alot of run speed and damage too!
So you would be much more mobile if you used that. So its harder to kite you, harder to stay away, and easier for you to damage them. All that means less free casting YOU.
I agree though but I dont see an EASY way for them to fix the class I think these few changes are kinda the "minimum" required to make the GWF "normal" again if you want to see it that way.....
And I would love to PVP! I usually play around 8-9 PM PST....
I'd love to PVP with you sometime also. I'm around 3k Ilvl. So I'm not super high end, But I'm not low either. I know I could get an extra like 600 from reinforcement kits, but I cant afford them at the moment. and I'm tossing up on either lifesteal kits or crit kits.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Power wise I think the GWF is in good place, I think fun wise you know much better than me on this, and it does look like good suggestions. Hope for you that it'll catch some dev eye
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
Thanks! Yeah I think so too!
"Power wise GWF is in a good place" - see I think this again depends. If the GWF can get up the full stacks AND a hidden daggers stack, then yes we can deal GOOD damage (not GREAT damage) GOOD damage and we SHOULD be cause its the super squishy class.
As someone pointed above, without a negation this module would have been a disaster! Negation is really ONE of the key factors that really makes Destroyer GWF even possible. Thats why I really believe these changes are crucial. In fact the changes really wouldnt make THAT much change to the large majoirty of the game. What it WOULD do is make the class MUCH more enjoyable for both PC and Xbox players and "even out" the experience. So playing lower level PVP the class will feel more or less the same playing higher end PVP (where currently its impossible to build stacks).
THe DR on its own layer also alleviates some issues such as piercing damage (since that layer DOES mitigate piercing - like GF block).
Then the final issue of taking a skill like Battle Fury and making it more like ITC - so that it gives run speed, temp HP, Damage bonus itll be a crucial ability for GWFs enabling them to play the melee role much better. At the cost of an encounter though!
So its a big tradeoff which is why it needs to provide a big boost - not JUST "stamina refill" thats garbage because you cant attack WHILE sprinting - where as a GF can use ITF to outrun anyone (aside from a sprinting GWF) then gets a massive damage boost on his other two encounter to really make it worth slotting.
Right now the GWF has just a few handfuls of good powers: Frontline, Daggers, Takedown, IBS.
Adding these into the mix: Battle Fury (copying ITF so its good) and Punishing Charge (copying Boar Charge) would add another layer of diversity. So NOW you will see all sorts of GWFs running all sorts of encounters. It really gives alot of GOOD options!
Every single class in the GAME has one of this gimmicks; the biggest damage dealers need TIME to max out their potential; rogues are only so strong because their burst is so strong, after that they tend to have fairly long cooldowns. The other damage dealers? Warlocks max their DPS through DoT effects- Hellish Rebuke is honestly one of the best things in the Hellbringer kit. Control Wizards need AoE and DoT to max out their power. Support classes maximize their usefulness by buffing the DPS of allies and debuffing enemies.
As a GWF, your gimmick is smacking and smashing and stabbing until your Determination fills, then SNOWBALLING INTO INFINITY. I'm fairly certain the GWF has the highest potential DPS in the game right now; 'condensing' the stacking mechanics, making stacks easier, all this sort of stuff.. Would not only rob the challenge of the class, but make it OP- if a GWF could do the damage they do now, fully stacked, without stacking up, or while stacking up in 1/2 the time, the class would be INCREDIBLY overpowered. Sorry, GWF players- you picked a class literally BUILT around stacking mechanics.
"The GWF should get some more survivability to facilitate stacking" - Unless you change the duration and ease of stacking, more survivability will NEVER facilititate more stacking. Go pick up a Perfect negation and Boom. Wish granted. You have more survivability now go PVP and guess what you will find? People DODGE you, people HIDE in stealth, people REPEL you. Bye bye stacks.
"Sorry, GWF players- you picked a class literally BUILT around stacking mechanics." - actually the GWF was not always like this and when I picked, leveled and geared BOTH my GWFs they were not like this. THey have only turned into this RECENTLY.
"Control Wizards need AoE and DoT to max out their power" - This makes me wonder if now your just talking PVE because in PVP CWs dont need "time" to make out their DPS its actually 100% BURST damage and VERY good burst as well..... So there is no "gimmick" there.
SWs - they are a just in a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> poor spot.
TRs- actually they have amazing sustained damage in PVP because CoS spam in stealth (and lurkers) with Shadowy Opp just guts people. ZERO "gimmick" in the sense that its a negative to the USER. They pop stealth, spam AT WILLS and you drop SO fast. Shadow Strike to refill stealth, spam COS MORE, Lurkers to get more "perma stealth" spam COS more, you are dead. YOU cant do anything about this because its piercing damage, and you also cant build stacks because they dodge roll more than you can sprint to keep up.
If this "stacking" never is improved the COnsole GWF players will suffer massively because it will be MUCH harder to get and keep stacks using a controller. If it never is improved the GWF class will FOREVER be doomed to be one of the weakest classes.
Why?
Because as I mentioned before at LOWER tiers of PVP, players do not know how to play frankly and you see CWs, TRs, nearly EVERY class sit and "face tank" a GWF. The DEVs have PROVEN their skill level in the game is BELOW even the average player by a LARGE margin. So think about it.
Any tests they run "GWF is fine, I build stacks just fine because this TR sat and face tanked my attacks" - he DIDNT perma stealth around avoiding you throwing CoS and melting your HP..... So what do they do then? If they BUFF survivability, in THEIR tests and in LOWER tier PVP GWF is now OP. Because its easier to gain stacks and NOW he is too hard to kill. So they nerf GWF.... The GWF class - due to his mechanic- is arguably the lowest "skill cap" required class in the game. Because of this GWF will either ALWAYS be under powered or Overpowered.
He will be underpowered when the DEV team thinks its "FINE" - Module 4/5/6.
He will be overpowered when the DEV team gives some wacky change that they dont test at HIGH level pvp - module 2/3.
The only "balanced" GWF there ever was was pre-mod 1 and module 1 days BEFORE all this "damage stacking" BEFORE GWF even had "IV" as a path. Once that happened and GWFs got Threat Rush to mark players and front line surge to stun, it was a game changer. More damage, more control. GG.
Whats happened since? Constant nerfs to the class. At low tiers its not evident. At high tiers of PVP it cripples the class.
This is something that I see as well.
When you strip a GF/GWF down naked and compare encounters a GF has about 50% more damage. I would LOVE to see GWF play much more like a GF. Where you have less and less damage bonuses and your encounter just flat out hit hard from the start.
That is PART of the issue on my GWF cant hit very hard against a TR. You cant build stacks.
To be honest id LOVE to just remove all damage bonuses except for capstone, remove destroyer "feat" and then its MUCH easier to mark + build capstone stacks and then give things like:
"Punishing Charge" - works like BullCharge.
"IBS" - Works like Anvil (double damage <40%)
"Battle Fury" - Works like "Into the Fray"
Those three abilities would be a MUCH better encounter setup that is also MUCH more fun for PVP. Battle Fury would make up the massive difference in damage.
Its just frustrating that its so flippin difficult to be at "maximum capacity" on damage stacks as a GWF.
- You have Destroyer stacks up, use daggers to get more, then you create a big gap you have to make up and a HIGH chance you lose destroyer stacks.
You roll up on a TR. GL getting any damage bonuses.... Destroyer will never help there, itll just be destroyer capstone + daggers if your lucky.....
Its just VERY frustrating, is it DOABLE? Sure but its just not fun.
1 - every tree have at least 2 useless or outdats feats
instigator: Fleet Footed/Nimble Runner/Crippling Strike/vengeance
Destroyer: Battle Awareness and the 2 news (dont work or work bad)
sentinel: Defiance
the same for heroic feats that can be reworked/buffed... Fast Runner/grift/Ubiquitous Shield
class features, you still have the defensive new one/Steadfast Determination
encounters, you just have 4 encounters for pve: ibs/daggers/ds/restoring strike. ALL THE REST can be freely changed.
unstoppable, dont exist reason to just destroyers receive determination giving damage.
all that can be worked first to change what... work.
ps:
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Class
being a striker, gwf still need a lot of mobility tools to "do damage w/o retaliating", like defender, solid defensive tools.
Im not really sure what you are saying... I think the translator is not doing a very good job, maybe you can re-phrase?
Also from that link what is funny is this:
From the Link:
Control Wizard:
Controller / Striker
From the GAME/Reality:
Control Wizard:
Striker (Primary) / Controller (Secondary) - Fairly close, but CWs have ALWAYS been more about damage than control
From the Link:
Devoted Cleric:
Leader / Controller - REALLY? Controller???? Where is that IN GAME?
From the GAME/Reality:
Devoted Cleric:
Leader / Defender - "Defenders take a lot of damage". "Leaders are healers, buffers and debuffers."
From the Link:
Great Weapon Fighter:
Striker / Defender - Where is the Striker when he has to buff himself ALOT to strike? How can a GWF be a defender when they cant take ANY damage (PVE) cause they get 1 shot. Even in PVP Sent GWFs melt in seconds...
From the GAME/Reality:
Striker (only in PVE) - Where is the Striker (PVP) when he has to buff himself ALOT to strike? How can a GWF be a defender when they cant take ANY damage (PVE) cause they get 1 shot. Even in PVP Sent GWFs melt in seconds...
From the Link:
Guardian Fighter:
Defender / Controller
From the GAME/Reality:
Defender / Striker - They have no control.... Not any more than any other class? They also deal ALOT of damage (Conq).
Just showing some of the big inconsistencies with what is stated and what is reality.
Each class has to post their own, THIS thread is what the GWF suffers from and what (minimally) should be done to fix the GWF.
portuguese: gwf possui uma série de feats e encounters ruins que ninguém usa (tanto em pve quanto em pvp). por que modificar o que tem um propósito em pve ao invés do que NÃO TÊM propósito em lugar nenhum?
mathematic: 2+2=4
about the rest: BIG discussion, the game pass by a lot of bad reworks and... the result you can see today. what you call "reality" is just a "state of corruption" that start to have some response (today cw is more important in your controller function... why dont bring down the damage to promote other strikers AND FIX THAT HISTORICAL PROBLEM?).
and OF COURSE, if is necessary to the class and dont bring problems to the game, yes, some secundary functions can be "changed". sw can sustain a secundary healer position today? i dont know. maybe that need be changed for the health of the game.
BUT what you and me can speak about gwfs is: this class today have a incomplete primary function (potential damage is HUGE... "mobility" is just sprint for a few time and... nothing more) AND defensive resourses is 100% out for every tree.... so... why dont work that first?
i HATE need to use daring shout for pve, but guess what? the change in mark made this one of the most important powers for us in pve. m4/m5 intimidation IMPROVE DS and made cgi (MY GOD, CGI) a supreme combo for gwfs. so... yeah!!!
just this point: FINALLY i see stacks beggining to work. the damage pools make sense (temporary hp). the base damage is not TOO BAD like in the past. that dont need be changed. what need be changed is all the rest because... the rest dont exist. dont have a form, a perspective. is just a lot of nothing.
portuguese: ai meu "caraio"...
now: gwf need more aoe damage daily resourses? for dailys, no. so take off that, the damage.
what need? be a better defender and have better mobility. now, slam have six waves. each can stun maybe? ap stolen or cooldown reduction? HUGE determination gain? instead to up your power or defense (feats) you can not over improve your stamina refil and receive a pure dr or a BIG temporary hp pool?
Again this isnt really much of a "BUFF" thread as much as it is a change thread. The current playstyle of the GWF is not only extremely difficult to balance (OP in some scenarios, bad in others) but its just NOT fun. It will NOT work on a console game but only BARELY works on the PC with the current mechanics.
So many things work AGAINST eachother that its just silly. Even something like:
Unstoppable/Sprint DR on its own layer of DR like GF block and Determination gain being PRE-DR values would give the class more synergy and fix some of the issues of the class.
The stacking NEEDS to go. Its not JUST "destroyer" but also the FEAT "destroyer" as well as "Mark" and "Hidden Daggers".
Without all four of those pieces, the GWF might as well not attack a target because just those FOUR are over 200% damage bonus 200%?!?! REALLY? We need a 200% damage bonus to be effective?
That is what is garbage....
I could see 100% so that only happens if they make our base damage higher. They wont, so the better solution is to slightly nerf all the % damage increases but give them MORE uptime and easier to get.
A slight nerf from the MAX potential of the class but over a HUGE improvement to the QOL.
I really like the idea of a flat bonus for Unstoppable rather than a scale. Hidden dagger is so confusing, throw aoe cone and suddenly a 40% damage buff..O.o. If only my TR Blitz gave that.
Overall, I enjoy playing the GWF in PvE quite a lot as long as we have the other necessary classes in the party. I have not tried PvP with it though since mine is pure PvE dps base.
Well I guess two things to point out.
1) As my OP states yes the overall damage is PVE is good! Noone is asking for more damage. The MAJOR difference between PVE and PVP though is in PVE its very common to have 3+ mobs in range of an ability. Mobs are not kiting you, nor really CCing you, nor do they only come solo or duo to kill you. Thus its VERY easy to GET and maintain stacks.
2) You are also referring to just ONE of the GWF paths. Destroyer. Current both Sentinel and Instigator are worthless paths. This is where I think another issue lies.
As you mentioned... Throw AoE daggers and get 40% more damage? Ummm... OK. What about throwing TWO? You get 80%! Seems rationale right? But this is why GWFs SEEM like they are doing good damage.... Each Daggers throw gives 40% damage buff ONTOP of all the other crazy stacking mechanics the class must rely upon. Its just silly.
maybe yes, maybe not. the point is "simple":All that destroyers today use the same 6/7 of 12 heroic feats possibles.
The same 9/33 possible paragon feats. Total, 15/45. Exist 30 feats to be worked in diferents ways. Is impossible a main destroyer have acess to, at least, 6 of of that feats. 6.
mark is silly? yes. stacks? yes. daggers? yes. but you know what all that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> have in commom? is what a destroyer need to do your job in pve. ALL THE REST can be worked in differents porposes (pick a utilitary encounter=lose 40/50% of damage boost) and that powers can be worked to this 6 feats that a main destroyer dont will have acces. "oh, but you just want destroyers 100% for pve" YES! you have 2 other trees w/o utility today.
ps: intimidation is silly. but if that are not over nerfed, we should have now 2 trees, one for pve and pvp.
ps:2 the mathematic thing is just a dramatic <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. iam not 100% sure about this numbers... hahah
I agree. However the big issue is they are not going to do a total class overhaul. If they are, then there are a TON of different ways they can make the other feats also viable.
They need to address some of the core issue of these abilities because its what the "standard" for the class has become. Look at ALL the posts that say "GWFs are fine in damage blah blah" Its because they measure the ONE GWF build that is viable.
Thats the issue. So FIRST we need to address the ONE GWF build - the one that like 80% of the GWFs play and ALSO these suggestions ALSO make the other two paths better.
Will players still run the same setup? More or less. But it will be MORE fun.
Also things like a Battle Fury re-work to be more like ITF will open up more options since its a nice damage boost that doesnt require as much stacking.
Things like Unstoppable DR on its own layer helps Sent builds.
I mean overall will it fix the class? NO.
Will Cryptic EVER fix the class? NO.
Thats the issue. They will NOT do a total class rework (eventhough we need it). There are alot of powers that are lackluster but unfortunately will ALWAYS be lackluster because frankly they cant make them good.... Or the class will be TOO good.
Its for these reasons they first need to change the current problems with the class. All the dumb damage buffs need to be streamlined so the GWF "feats" and "powers" work alot MORE like a GF. Where there is less stacking.
I mean look at the current Conq GF build.... They run things like "ITF" for movement and damage. Then rull Bull Chrage to close the gaps and prone to set up an ability then Anvil as a "finisher".
A GWF should be able to run a similar setup.
"Battle Fury" to gain run speed, damage bonus. "Punishing Charge" to gap close and set up for an IBS.
But other GOOD options could also be things like: Takedown/FLS/Daggers - still not a BAD encounter for damage (2 daggers = 1 IBS). So it opens up MORE options.
I would even be of the opinion that IBS should gain a damag bonus based on targets missing HP (or like Anvil 100% damage bonus <40% Hp). This way you DONT need massive damage boosts to deal good damage there.
the other encounters dont will change my life that much. if you improve punishing charge to be a close gap burst, like happens to mleap, will no longer be a "melee damage" (no daggers buff). so, if i want "burst", ibs still a better choice for destroyers.
what you want for ibs can be filled to grand fissure (being a range attack, by the way). a improved bf VS ds? ds giveme determination. ds+bf+daggers? seens a nice combination. why not?
about stacks and just stacks, i think that is not necessary. not because is "oh my god, i love stacks" but because... you still have 2 trees to work. take the 3 lasts feats of instigator and made 1/4 of your power(?)= a stamina gain or speed, or both (the curve is 300/400 for 100 i guess, so, 10kpower=25% for both). and turn the capstone a bonus to your ranged powers (your punishing charge+anvil grand fissure) and you have a monster "close gap" w/o stacks or daggers bonus.
I agree, however with Intimidation not being a very high feat, and its clear they over-nerfed it. History has shown they rarely ever go back on what they did.
I too would love to see Instigator become more useful as well as Sent the issue here is THEN it becomes a "buff GWF" thread where all these other powers need increases in damage and utility which is unlikely to happen.
The DEVs seem to look a THE "META" build for the class and judge its position based on that. Which is why in PVE they say "GWF is performing how we want". In reality "how they want" really just means as a DPS machine and NOT Insti or Sent.
So since that is their stance, they also look at pvp and test pvp as well. Destroyer (THE META) probably on their testing seems fine. Which is why I wrote this. Because at higher tiers of PVP its not really working as intended IMO.
So I am 100% onboard with them buffing the other trees. However our experience shows that RATHER than making them good, its either OP for a mod then gets nerfed, or they dont really even fix the issue at all.
So I would rather have ONE GOOD Meta (Destroyer) that needs some adjusting then having 1 "OK" Meta (Destroyer - current) that is good in PVE and only OK for PVP and another path that is lack luster as well.
Again all of this has the perspective of playing on a controller as well.... Do you know how DUMB and frustrating its going to be playing on an Xbox Controller and trying to build up all these stacks, using daggers, keeping destroyer stacks up etc... Its going to be STUPID to play compared to a GF who just presses "ITF -> Bull Charge -> Anvil of Doom" and done....
Or a TR "Stealth-> COS Spam-> Shadow Strike/Stealth -> Cos Spam -> ITC if needed" Its all relatively simple.
On a GWF though its "Run in, get in range, Threat Rush (hope it doesnt get dodged or you have lag), Sure Strike spam and try tp sprint near targets. Wait to take damage until Unstoppable. Build stacks. Manage Daggers stacks + keep a KEEN eye on Destroyer and THEN you can drop your combo of FLS+IBS". It requires so much "management" and the comment "L2P" doesnt apply because ANY interruption completely ruins the combo.
Get a CW to repel you? Goodbye Destroyer stacks. By the time you can even HOPE to build them up again, Goodbye Daggers buff.
Get a TR to smoke Bomb? Goodbye Destroyer stacks, then its goodbye dagger stacks when you get Destroyer stacks going again. Or heck the TR just needs to HIDE and youll never get stacks.
I mean its all the same thing. Or a SMART GF can just hide behind block while he knows you have Dagger stacks up, then once its gone bull charge prone you and there is a HIGH chance youll lose destroyer stacks......
Again it all boils back to the FUN of the class. Back module 1 & 2 there were no "stacks" besides weapon master that were easy to keep up. This was Sentinel Ofc, but it was MUCH more fun to play. You could take hits, dish out moderate damage, and it was fun. "chain combos" that YOU could control. Not hop around and PRAY noone interrupts your "damage setup" and if they do GG you cant kill anyone.....
we are speak about a t5 feat of one tree historically useless "reworked "in the same patch when renegades become even healers. what is the excuse for this during m5?
if you look for pve, today, stacks are not a problem because enemies dont die in one blink. in fact, a contigent damage is good thanks to the hp temporary changes. what i can say? gc made a omelete here!
being a pve guy, my BIG problem is the lack of encounters (4 and nothing more). range for aoe atwills (i aways will complain about that) and better stamina. the rest is really, really ok and functional TODAY AND FOR NOW.
the general problem is: dont exist a confortable pvp build (and a tank tree; some peoples like that).
a historical problem: instigators is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
i love omelets.
I think this is the difference between you and I. I am not a PVE guy and I also admitted stacks are not an issue in PVE (that much). It can still be VERY frustrating in a dungeon trying to build destroyer stacks because you cant get Unstoppable without getting hit and if you get hit outside unstoppable chances are (T2) you will get 1-2 shot.
Either way I still think its just a BAD mechanic overall.
I agree too that we need more encounter that are viable.
"Not so Fast" and "Mighty Leap" could be re-worked and become good encounters.
"NSF" - Should REALLY cripple enemies slowing their movement by ~50% and this ability needs an increase in base damage by about 50%.
"ML" - This ability should do an AoE Stun for ~3 seconds. Also its base damage should be increased.
"Roar" could provide 100% determination fill (like Shadow Strike for TR). This would go well with a destroyer and play into their encounter rotations however it might make destroyer too good with an 8 sec CD. So maybe the Destroyer feat to reduce the CD of Roar should INSTEAD increase its damage more and maybe do 50% determination gain (rather than 100%) as a FLAT bonus rather than increased deter gain per target hit. This way if you hit someone with Roar you get 50% determination bar - allowing you to pop unstoppable on command.
- OR you can actually add some CC to this to make it viable, like a 1 second Daze would work and atleast ACTUALLY interrupt.
If my proposition of "Battle Fury" goes through, then that would be an ideal encounter as well, giving both run speed, 40% damage boost, AP gain and maybe even Temp Hp. So this would be a near mandatory encounter for GWFs (just like it is for GFs) UNLESS you party with a GF who uses it, then since it doesnt stack you cant really use it well....
Then you could ALSO add something in Instigator to buff this feat further, either add more "uptime" or add even further damage bonus.... So they can make up for some damage loss that Destroyer has but they dont.
They should CHANGE "Executioner Style" to work JUST like "Last Moments" INSTEAD.
"Deal 25% more damage to targets under 40% HP. This threshold is 70% While Unstoppable" - This would affect ALL abilities not JUST Sure Strike and IBS, it would also be a more "steady" damage gain rather than "up to 30% based on missing health". More or less the same thing, but just more reliable.
"Punishing Charge" should PRONE in PVE and STUN in PVP. Become JUST like "Bull Charge" or "Boar Charge" making for another good encounter option.
"Intimidation" should work JUST like "Jagged Blades": However since its a higher tier, be buffed a little:
"Intimidation": Deal 1000% weapon damage over 10 seconds. (100% weapon damage a second) when using CAGI and DS. This alleviates the benefits of needing BOTH encounter and now you can just pick 1.
"Grand Fissue" Needs to be beefed up quite a bit. Id also like to see (as Zacazu mentioned) maybe it deals DOUBLE damage to targets under 40% HP... So this is more LIKE "Anvil of Doom" for GFs. Its got a LONG animation and also a Narrow animation so its hard to hit players. The base damage needs to be ABOUT the same as "Restoring Strike" however THEN make it deal double damage under 40% HP - this would also synergize well with "Executioner Style" for a Destroyer.
These encounter changes ALONG with the "stacking" changes I mentioned in the OP would be very good changes.
Now this would give you ALOT of encounter options..... It makes MANY things good, also makes MANY viable builds....
This way I could see an Instigator build running some combination of "Battle Fury" along with "Grand Fissure" To provide IT with some nice burst damage OR EVEN A Sent using those for some additional benefits.
feat 1: x% of a attribute y = control bônus (Crippling Strike)
.
feat 2: the same effect of 3/3 loth set. If you have a new broken artefact in the next module, will trigger that too. (Group Assault)
feat 3 (capstone): "slot bravery and steadfast up your critical rating in 12.5 each, and, over the top, both together give 30% more fast cooldowns.
speed+deflect+dot <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>+everthing that you slot will be great and fast.
Made nsf a dot encounter
sentinels: Defiance: a inversal version of knight challange (i guess). you and a challenged oponent will do 50% less damage (or 50%X10% in the end of rank) and that guy will receive x% more damage to a party. change the AC of Master at Arms by hp temporary for each sure strike attack (max 30% in pve).
I really don’t want pass to another "traumatic module preview" because of pvp…
See I disagree. I think Destroyers NEED to change. The MAIN one being the feat, we have a 25% chance to gain a stack? CMON... THAtS just STUPID.
1 - you received a bonus striking multiple targets, but lost damage by striking multiple targets (stupid contradiction but finally resolved)
2 - lack of range in aoe powers. when hr / sw receive some boost (and deserve) the class will back to the hole (yes, seens strange if you look for the damage potential).
Anyway, as you can see, this is not a "destroyer problem". It is a SIMPLE AND SILLY structural problem of the class. destroyer is very close to being a solid tree; obviously, some trees will be better for pve than pvp (exclude some broken classes, you know).
The real problem is structural, in your case, the nonexistence of a feat / class feature / tree single target+great mobility (ie, striker originally speaking). in short: "The Instigator combines cunning and strength to harnesses the ferocity of battle into precision attacks and tatical maneuvers."
oh, but you have a meta build. YES, and that is a big problem of the game.if i miss a new paragon, imagine can choose other tree.