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The State of PvP [Mod 6]
tsokushin
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Disclaimer: This quote is from mod 5. The point of showing it is to see how far mod 6 has progressed from that state, whether things are better or worse from that mod 5 standpoint.
So, how do we stand nowadays? I'm seeing that most of the points about CW and GF remain relevant today as they retain considerable burst with high survivability, while HR has somewhat slipped into a neverending chain of "Cannot use that ability..." instead of being outright burst. A healing DC with Astral Shield is extremely durable.
What elements of each class do you think needs a fine-tuning in your opinion?
This honestly needs to be addressed ASAP if PvP whatsoever is to progress in any shape or form. It has nothing resembling the balance at the start of the game and has evolved into an abomination of who can use the cheesiest, skilless, and ungraceful build possible.
First and foremost, NO POTIONS WHATSOEVER IN PVP. It destroys any credibility of discovering true skill in this game.
GWF:
Intimidation: Lacking any grace or skill in its usage, this literally allows a GWF to output the single target burst of a CW in a long range aoe. If this were merely single target, that damage would be fine as it would involve the GWF having to use skill and maneuvering to get into proper range. Even worse, these high damage abilities are within the *tank* tree of the GWF.
Come and get it literally has no effective windup leaving little chance of skillfully dodging it, rather spamming dodges and hoping that the GWF uses it and misses. Daring Shout is the same in this vein as it's purely instant damage with no telegraphing and no chance of a skillful dodge. Either these abilities need a longer, telegraphed windup, or the damage needs to be flat out further toned down, with the threat generation modifier tweaked to retain PVE effectiveness.
I have nothing against the standard Takedown, Frontline/flourish, IBS builds, however. Those are extremely balanced in terms of gameplay.
CW
Storm Spell is absolutely disgusting in that it requires absolutely 0 skill and yet it adds extremely large amounts of burst damage. Long story short one of the following needs to happen: this thing needs to never EVER crit, it needs a reduced proc rate, or possibly even both.
If this causes long term problems in PvE, then they can rebuff Shard of the Avalanche (not to the previous ridiculous levels, but reasonable), which I have no problems with considering the finesse required to effectively use it in PvP.
And, finally, ALL of CW abilities need to be affected by Control Resist. As it stands, only the temporary freeze from Icy Rays is affected. This would allow builds emphasizing control resist to actually be effective. Edit: I have been told that this is due to CW's ignoring 66% of all tenacity. This should definitely be looked at.
Speaking of Icy Rays, they are unable to be dodged whatsoever. This needs to be fixed.
Another point to address is the bunnyhop Ray of Frost spam, easily addressed by placing a .15 sec timer into casting it before chill/damage ticks are triggered to prevent this.
Finally, Shield on Tab is way too powerful in its current form. It needs one of the following:
1.the ability to be completely broken (removed) from the wizard after too many hits, placing it on cooldown, and requiring a recast. The casting time can be sped up to compensate.
2. Rescaling the starting damage resistance to 20% and ending at 10% and subsequently vastly increasing the knockback distance and radius on canceling the shield (giving the CW a viable reason to cancel the shield)
3. Giving the shield a duration, and not permanent.
4. Flat out lengthen the refresh duration to 15 seconds instead of 6, or remove it completely.
DC
Gift of Faith needs an internal cooldown after being used before it's able to be reapplied. This is the long and the short of it. It allows a DC to be exceedingly tanky beyond any reasonable measure. 15 seconds after its usage before reapplication is reasonable.
Also, Fire of the Gods definitely needs toning down. The duration needs to be reduced to 10 seconds. The lingering DoT's kill more people from a random proc than relying on actual, aimed/timed direct damage.
Furthermore, Empowered Astral Shield % needs to be reduced to 2%(possibly 1.5%) rather than 3%, so that it's 6% and not 9% at max rank. Some DC's are capable of reaching upwards of 50k HP, and blocking nearly 5k of Damage per hit is getting to be ridiculous.
Lastly, Sunburst needs to respect CC immunity.
GF
The Burst damage capable on a pure tank class is Overpowered. It's not exactly balanced to have the only class capable of near perfect CC resist to be able to 1 rotation people. The only functional fix for this would be to lower the threshold for bonus anvil damage from 40% to 30%. This would leave the CC and utilities of a GF largely intact, but force Damage GF's to stay an extra rotation in terms of killing somebody solo. Anybody if caught, should still suffer the lockdown they provide as they are the least mobile of classes, but not die within a single rotation. The Prones also need to be subject to control resist.
HR
Combat HR's have, for the most part, become balanced except for piercing damage. The piercing damage itself needs to be reworked and instead become extra bonus damage instead of something that ignores all mitigation.
New Trapper HR's need to be toned down immensely. They're capable of frontloading more burst than a CW that lingers along with having extreme amounts of mobility with profound set. I've literally had Thorned Roots tick for 6.8k at a time. First and foremost, these root are currently undodgeable. This needs to be fixed asap. The weapon damage from this feat to be toned down to 150% of weapon damage rather than 200%.
For all HR's Disrupting Shot needs a bit of a slowdown in the missile speed, as they already have numerous auto-acquire target abilities in their lineup. This would allow more timing of dodges on the part of their enemy and more careful timing on the part of the HR. Also, Disrupting Shot needs to obey the CC immunity on the GF block.
Other than this, the class is, for the most part, balanced, taking some skill to effectively work properly.
TR
THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS WRONG WITH THIS THAT IT NEEDS A SEPARATE POST TO ADDRESS.
So, how do we stand nowadays? I'm seeing that most of the points about CW and GF remain relevant today as they retain considerable burst with high survivability, while HR has somewhat slipped into a neverending chain of "Cannot use that ability..." instead of being outright burst. A healing DC with Astral Shield is extremely durable.
What elements of each class do you think needs a fine-tuning in your opinion?
Post edited by tsokushin on
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As for the actual content and specifics of your post...I won't go into it. Because see above.
First step to solving a problem is identifying it. Parity won't be reached if you just sit on good ideas without sharing them. Just don't be afraid to also give up something that other classes view as broken.
For example, I only play DPS DC, yet I both advocated toning down Fire of the Gods and Empowered Astral Shield. It's not simply fair to ask for some retuning to other classes and then neglect your own.
So, just speak freely and don't get involved with people that take on a more personal and vindictive persona on class balancing.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Domination queue has to be a solo one, the casual and grouped play can take place in GG, which is that much more fun without leaver penalty and ELO.
Yes, this post is from mod 5, but some of the things still hold true today, such as complaints about CW storm spell and shield on tab.
I'm looking to collect feedback from this thread and then write a detailed mod 6 status on pvp.
Every queue needs to be solo. No team queues whatsoever. Are there some bunch of PvP guild members wanting to play? Great. Let them split all over, instead of rack up all the l33T into one team and making it a one-sided slaughter.
Give them separate queues for team/ranking matches.
GG was great fun for about two weeks, and then, nowadays, it is infested by the same disgusting affliction that infected domination: premades. Now, the same thing as domination is going on. One side slaughtering the other side, grabbing the victory early on, and a long, long period of campfire sing-along time, people giving up, leaving the match.
Those premade shi*s simply ruin everything everywhere they go, whether be it gear imbalance through AD exploits, or just destroying whatever desire/fun-factor there is for the gamers to play PvP in the first place.
Such poetic irony to see them destroy the very thing they profess to love so much. ROFL
I think there should be a way to play with friends, but outside any ranking. Look how GG quickly got the fan favorite. You can drop in and out, make a quick match. It's Mod 2 all over again and it's great. Kinda shows how useless the leaver penalty was in hindsight, but smart people knew it all along anyway.
Ideally you would need competitive systems for full premades, for single players and a casual queue. I really hope they look at the Domination data right now and realize the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> they've produced.
Premades are just a bunch of friends who want to play together too.
Sometimes, there's just no compromise between 'selfishness' and 'the greater good'. You can either let bunch of friends have fun together and then let them kill off the entire PvP itself, or just suck it up and play as solos for the sake of keeping the PvP scene healthy.
You want to play with friends? Play with others who also play with their friends.
That's actually what I'm proposing. Leave GG as it is, but let people enter Dom either alone or in a full premade. Entering as premade will only match you with other premades.
I think also GG is more favored right now as class balance is less of an issue as you can reliably have a group focus down what might be currently considered "problem classes".
But, yes, the lack of a leaver penalty and more of a solo queue environment definitely makes it more appealing to more casual people.
This is exactly what I logged in to propose. Premades are making GG impossible right now for those of us who don't choose to be in a pay to win pvp guild. So premades should have to face other teams that also include a premade. It's that simple.
My friend, I want to give you a little hug and a pat on the head. I think it is awesome that so many people want to get involved in identifying problems in pvp. That conversation should happen and be ongoing. Just the realist in me doesn't see cryptic doing a thing about any of it.
I could not disagree with this more. GG wins mean absolutely NOTHING. Why? Because to win in GG here is what you do: Que>pops immediately>match doesn't seem like a sure win for you within a minute or two>quit match with no penalty> repeat that until it looks like you are going to easily win and just stay in the match and cherry pick kills till the end.
GG wins are meaningless and if the result of a match is meaningless, the match is meaningless its self. There is no competition, no risk, all reward (glory, grym coins, seals of triumph). Its a farce.
PvP in Neverwinter is a team game. Teams are not ruining a TEAM GAME by playing as TEAMS. There is no irony there. The system is killing its self. There should be no solo que. Only team ques. Que as a team, rank as a team, be matched by elo as a team.
Of course a TEAM GAME that allows people to que solo is a disaster waiting to happen.
No it's not, because that's what people want, apparently. Dom queues are through the roof, nobody (comparably) plays that any longer. Turns out the leaderboard (and Domination) was only played because there was literally nothing else to do. Give folks an alternative and look how quickly they've turned the corner.
The leaderboard ranks currently being bugged might be an issue why nobody is motivated though.
Anyway, to force people into a (lackluster) competitive system in a casual game was completely wrong and Mod 6 finally shows it. I think endgame PVP should still be possible, but in a completely separate environment. And now that you have GG and Domination, that's actually possible. What's not to like?
PvP is a TEAM game. Thesis statement. I mean, that statement defines the pvp paradigm in neverwinter. What ruins pvp are idiot pugs who que solo and do not care if their team wins or loses as long as they get their ad for the day.
I play for my team, will take bottom of the match scoreboard if it means my team wins. Yet unless I play in a premade, I am making this sacrifice and playing my *** off for dickheads and idiots who could care less about the win.
Premades are not the problem. The que is the problem. If they want a solo que that anyone joins at any time make a 20 man death match pvp mode. Would be wildly popular and every cherry picker in the game could jump in and get their daily pvp ad by failing miserably and not be yelled at by anyone about it.
That people want something doesn't make it less of a farce. I have no problems getting dom matches. This game is about as casual as a mafia funeral. You are grinding the equivalent of a full time job here for a year or so to gear up or you are paying out your butt.
I still don't get why you want both GG and Dom to be competitive so bad. You can have your team queue with Dom, let the casuals square off in GG. Sounds like a deal to me.
Oh, I just don't want GG to award seals of triumph and as much glory. Take away the sot and give about 80% less in glory (in both grym tokens and actual glory) and I am good to go. GG can be fun! I just don't think a person should be able to complete a pvp gear set from not even having to try at all.
That's where we disagree then, at least for now. In times of crappy matchmaking and pugs not protected from meeting a premade, it's justified they have another option. If we have a solo/team queue with harsh matchmaking that produces competitive matches on a regular basis, I agree that it should reward more glory, but not right now.
All it would do is force people into the horrible imbalanced ELO again and that can't be an answer.
People complain about other people forming teams in a team game. That is the part that blows my mind. Get a team together, join a guild.
Either the rewards of GG need toned way down or it needs a leaver penalty. You leave a match and do not come back within 5 minutes you should have a 30 minute leaver penalty. Otherwise that glory and sot are pretty much totally free, all you have to do is que gg a few times and stay for the match that looks like it is going to win. Then after a little while of doing that every day, you complete your pvp set. The same player then ends up as a pug on my team and doesn't know what is going on and my head explodes because I am trying to play a competitive match.
PvP is a team game. Solo quers in a team game are going to cause all kinds of problems and it never should have been set up that way.
No. Even if people teamed up for PVP, there would still be a huge gear and skill gap that's not efficiently handled by the matchmaking algorithm, mostly because it doesn't have enough players to work with and the devs decided any match is better than no match.
So the complaint is that under the current matchmaking, which produces <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> matches 9 out of 10 times, nobody should be forced into it.
I don't buy into the broken elo point so much any more. My character is not well geared and sits a little over 2k. I win most of the matches I que. I run into broken op characters with broken op enchants, in broken op groups. None the less, the wins. I am maybe average skilled in pvp. If I can do it, anyone can.
The vast majority of the losses I do sustain is pugs in my team not knowing what to do or how pvp works. They qq about matcmaking fails and afk at the camp fire. There is a rare match where we are just out geared. By a lot. And that is why the team loses. But they are so rare. Much more rare than the pug who doesn't know or doesn't care.
Sorry, but my GF is not a tank. It is specced for damage. In fact the class only has ONE, let me repeat ONE paragon path that can be considered as 'tank'. Spec your CW for survivability and it still deals damage. Does it make the CW become a tank? No it doesn't. You want us to not be able to defend ourselves, that would be my guess. I'd give the usual l2p advice but i'm a nice guy.
Thanks and bye.
Well said!
Newcomer here but not a newcomer to MMO's or PC gaming (started on the Commodore 64). I've been PvPing quite a bit so I'll just throw in my perspective...
Qeues: Messed up but not incurable. Pre-made vs Pre-made would be great. But that leads to another problem. How many people on a team does it take to be considered pre-made? For example--my wife and I play this game together quite a bit. She just started pvp 3 nights ago and we qeue together. It's the best way I can teach her what to look for, going for nodes instead of players and when to break off a fight to after a non-contested node. Are we a pre-made? Yes. Are we a threat to cause an imbalance in a match? Not really at the moment though with her gaining some experience in the future, we probably could sway some games--especially in a Dom match. When we level to gg (playing 20-29 level together now) would we be able to sway a match even with a lot of experience? Probably not with only 2 people even if we become better players than we currently are and get geared up, which will take a lot of time.
So--How big a team is to be considered pre-made? Base it on a percentage of the total team size? Hmmm...
Dom matches: I like them. Clear on how to win with a little common sense (lacking in some matches I admit). The biggest qeue problem I see is team matching--example 3 OP, TR, OC vs GF, SW, 2 HR and OC? Split up the OPs at least! Unless team 1 was a pre-made we were facing...
GG: Fun but with all those objectives and only 10 toons per side it reminds me of a game of musical chairs with too many chairs. Golems are WAY OP!
Hitting L70 and going into matches against geared player sucks. But I expected it and I accept it and would not want it to change. To play with the big dogs means I'll have to get chomped a lot but when I accrue some more Seals of Triumph, that will change. I need to be willing to pay that price and play smart until I can gear up. In other word, my 70 GF is dying a lot right now but that's OK. You all who Earned the better gear have the right to pick on me. For now...
Leavers and Leaver penalty: Leavers are scum that ruin the game for all. I'll never leave a match no matter how bad it gets. Those that do just to farm for a win should be penalized heavily and not with just a 20-30 minute wait. Leave once? 25 Glory/3 Grym penalty in the next match you qeue for. Leave Twice? Double it. Leave 3 times? Banned from pvp for a day. Etc. Harsh? Yes. But so is leaving your team swinging in the breeze just because you couldn't take the heat.
The real problem with this is making sure that people aren't penalized for server problems--something we've all experienced I'm sure.
Score Board? It's a joke. Quit rewarding people who don't go for the win but just kill people off nodes. Reward people who die on the nodes even if they die a lot. Reward playing to win.
Leader Board? Make sense please. Show us the formula you use for coming up with those numbers and we'll make a new formula you can plug in. It'd probably take about 30 minutes. Seriously Cryptic. It's a joke.
Play to Win: No. I won't. I will pay to support something I enjoy doing and have put in enough to get a fast mount. (I don't want y'all in gg to have to wait for me lol). I'd also buy a couple bags if they weren't BoC. I'm new. How do I know for sure which toons I'll keep? I need more experience before I'm willing to put money into a toon I may well delete in the future. The greedier you get for my money, the less you'll see. I can afford to pay but your practices are making me very cautious about getting more Zen. Am I the only newbie who thinks like this? Figure it out PWE. Make it reasonable, make it fun and you'll be rewarded.
If not?
Sorry for slipping off-topic there...
Cheers All and have a Great Day!
EDIT: Artifacts. I don't like them. They are too powerful IMO. Artifacts should enhance my gear, not make or break my toon.