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Rouges to op???
hardyhehar
Member Posts: 1 Arc User
Okay, first of all don't go off saying that I am a Rogue hater...
I have played as a Rogue from MMO's from WoW to Elder Scrolls Beta, frankly I think they are freakin awesome. High Dps, Mild Survivability depending where you spec, amazing mobility, and decent utilities.
Lets be honest guys, TR in NW is most likely the most OP class in the game so far, but being able to to 3v1 a GW,DC,and a SW in PvP is straight up unbalanced.
1. Dps is thru the roof (Understandable from a Rogue, isn't the biggest issue)
2. Survivability is MUCH higher than expected ( A Dps based SW or GW could dish out everything and make only a dent)
3. Able to Stealth IN and Out of combat at an amazing rate (Most TR Iv'e played against will blow all their cooldown
abilities, go stealth and wait for cooldowns to refresh, then blow all abilities again. Rinse and Repeat)
4. Constant Stun Locks, I have repeatedly seen a situation where a GW or other classes will be 1v1 (Hell even 3v1) against a TR and during that 40 sec fight the class facing the TR will only be able to fight back a quarter or half of the time. NOW, I realize that a TR does NOT constantly use stuns and snares, BUT combined with an over the roof Dps and ability to stealth during combat to refresh makes an chance of winning during a 1v1 fight obsolete and or extremely hard.
YES TR fans I know everybody *****es and hates about it, but being a Rogue fan as well, these are mostly HUGE concerns other than complaining. I want to see this game excel because I enjoy playing it on Xbox. Playing as a TR just seems reeeaally boring now because everything would be way to easy to do lol. If I were to make any changes: Keep the Dps, lower survivability just a tad (or remove immune affects to certain abilities), longer stealth and high dps ability cooldowns, NO STEALTH WHILE IN COMBAT.
If this pisses you off go right ahead and vent, if you agree with me then Yay lol. I want to see what people think who both have experience and are non-experienced with MMO based games. And TR fans who KNOW that TR is unbalanced please try and stay humble and honest. We know you love your Backstabbing little halfling but only defend him if you really feel if TR is NOT unbalanced.
I have played as a Rogue from MMO's from WoW to Elder Scrolls Beta, frankly I think they are freakin awesome. High Dps, Mild Survivability depending where you spec, amazing mobility, and decent utilities.
Lets be honest guys, TR in NW is most likely the most OP class in the game so far, but being able to to 3v1 a GW,DC,and a SW in PvP is straight up unbalanced.
1. Dps is thru the roof (Understandable from a Rogue, isn't the biggest issue)
2. Survivability is MUCH higher than expected ( A Dps based SW or GW could dish out everything and make only a dent)
3. Able to Stealth IN and Out of combat at an amazing rate (Most TR Iv'e played against will blow all their cooldown
abilities, go stealth and wait for cooldowns to refresh, then blow all abilities again. Rinse and Repeat)
4. Constant Stun Locks, I have repeatedly seen a situation where a GW or other classes will be 1v1 (Hell even 3v1) against a TR and during that 40 sec fight the class facing the TR will only be able to fight back a quarter or half of the time. NOW, I realize that a TR does NOT constantly use stuns and snares, BUT combined with an over the roof Dps and ability to stealth during combat to refresh makes an chance of winning during a 1v1 fight obsolete and or extremely hard.
YES TR fans I know everybody *****es and hates about it, but being a Rogue fan as well, these are mostly HUGE concerns other than complaining. I want to see this game excel because I enjoy playing it on Xbox. Playing as a TR just seems reeeaally boring now because everything would be way to easy to do lol. If I were to make any changes: Keep the Dps, lower survivability just a tad (or remove immune affects to certain abilities), longer stealth and high dps ability cooldowns, NO STEALTH WHILE IN COMBAT.
If this pisses you off go right ahead and vent, if you agree with me then Yay lol. I want to see what people think who both have experience and are non-experienced with MMO based games. And TR fans who KNOW that TR is unbalanced please try and stay humble and honest. We know you love your Backstabbing little halfling but only defend him if you really feel if TR is NOT unbalanced.
Post edited by hardyhehar on
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Agree with everything you said although I am a bit tired of these threads since they seem to just end up with a bunch of rogues desperately trying to prove they are not OP.
At this point, it's pretty obvious rogues are indeed at a sizable advantage in pvp, anyone who says otherwise is more than likely a rogue. I even made a rogue, lvld to 60 , just to do some end game pvp. Of course, I was at no surprise how easy it was to constantly be at the top of the leaderboard while having an insane k/d ratio. Rogues are easy to play with and not a whole lot of fun IMO, which sucks cause I do enjoy the assassin type class. Hopefully They fix this flawed class without making them underwhelming.
What TRs are is easy to learn, build, and play. I've seen CWs, SWs, HRs, and GWFs do more damage than TRs in PvE skirmishes and dungeons. Those same classes can also take out TRs in PvP pretty regularly.
The problem isn't really overall power or balance; the problem, if you can call it that, is that all the other classes in the game have more options and can fill more roles than TRs. TRs do one thing, and they do it well, but you won't see hybrid TRs splitting duty between DPS and support. Nope, all TR powers and feats lead to a toon that does lots of damage. Heck, even the play styles don't change much between the paragon paths.
Meanwhile, every other class is more complex both in terms of build and play style. Even the GWF is more nuanced than the TR. So what you're seeing as being OP has more to do with how easy it is to stumble into a high-damage, stealthy toon with decent (or better) survivability. You barely have to plan it out. But...
And it's a significant but...
Purpose built CWs, SWs, HRs, and GWFs run by players who understand their builds and play them as designed can and do rock many a TR's world.
Firstly.
Definition - Rouge.= "a red powder or cream used as a cosmetic for coloring the cheeks or lips."
When talking about Rogues, at least get the name correct.
Every class in this game can be very bursty, depending on gear/build and vs what kind of gear/build. Low health, no defense, no deflect, no Tenacity=getting crushed in PvP by "any" class...not just TR.
Rogues too OP? While I don't think any class right now is OP. Take a peak at this video of a Guardian Fighter, doing 20-100+k crits. Yes, I said 100,000 damage crits in PvP. https://youtu.be/FwYD5o5Wbyo
Rogues in NW do high single target damage. At lower levels, and against poorly geared players I will agree they tend to come off as very powerful. However, even at low lvls players have the opportunity to purchase, and acquire PvP gear with Tenacity to negate this damage. I for one did as I was lvling up with my TR, and never once did I get one shot by anyone, let alone a TR.
TR's are powerful against players with bad builds and poor gear. A well built, well geared TR, is even worse in terms of fighting someone with very low of the above mentioned stats.
In the end game(where people have more knowledge, skill and gear), everything is very, very even in terms of Balance. The best it has ever been since Mod 1.
I play a TR, but I feel very strongly that I am not biased. I have played multiple class's at the highest lvl of PvP, and never once came to the conclusion that any one class is Over Powered.
In premade's against skilled/geared players, teams are constantly switching things around. For example, maybe your teams TR is having difficulty holding the enemys point because the enemy teams GF is unkillable, or their GWF is owning the TR etc etc, So a coordinated team will move players around to account for it. Not once do they say, "omg the tr is OP lets make a thread and cry". They adapt, and understand skill/gear has everything to do with this game as well as players will change up their encounters to deal with certain types of enemy's.
I am not calling anyone bad, or ****. However, the problem with TR's in this game is not the class itself, its the players lack of knowledge. The players that are worrying about TR's are generally pre 60, and once they become 60 and the player population grows and gets better gear, not only are they going to be crying about TR's, but CW's, GWF's, GF's, HR's and dps spec'd DC's.
Every class in this game has the ability to absolutely crush every class in this game. It's all about the gear, the build and the skill .
Soooo, a 20k Lashing on a prone/mounted/poorly built character "Is OP", but a Guardian Fighter hitting for 100k is ok?
I don't think either class is OP, but you sir, have fuzzy logic :rolleyes:
You constantly talk how TR's are easy to play and require no skill whatsoever to Dominate in PvP. I am ready to learn from you now, so if you would please log into your TR sometime and gather 4 other party members, we can get a premade match going. I fully expect for you to be dominating with your TR, as they are so easy to play, so the match should be over fairly quick with your TR of course being #1.
Msg me anytime in game.
GT> Munkey81
Character Name > Alysin Chains
thats mod 6 bis gf. look at the date before you post. you put others down yet you dont even know what that video is from. just wait til trs are that well geared they will literally do 80k crits.
You're turning into quite the troll. Your evolution over the past month has been very entertaining to read. Every single comment of yours trying to disprove Rogues being OP are full of variables such as under geared players, lack of skill, lack of experience, pre-made teams etc. which none of these things are ever mentioned by the original poster. My logic is fuzzy? Talk about the kettle calling the pot black.
And me saying TR's are easy to play with is the last thing that should be debatable. Its quite obvious they are, even the guy above you, whose main is a TR, agreed. So please take your head out of your ***, no one is trying to ruin your precious class. Rogues could never be nerfed and I would still enjoy this game tomorrow as much as I did yesterday.
And I won't be on for the next week or so as I am preoccupied with work(traveling) but I'll be sure to take you up on that offer but with my CW instead.
But continue making up variables when defending your poor little TR. Anything to justify your answers am I right?
Oh I'm sure he knew that. Not the first time hes done that. He was just not expecting anyone else to notice it.
I posted the video to show comparison, validating my point that "every class" can be very powerful, not just TR's.
From a Mod that contains a plethora of changes, which has not yet been released on Xbox. That's what I call fuzzy logic my friend.
ah ok. i dont play xbox im on pc but i just cant stand false information. and that doesnt sound logical. mod 6 is completly unrelated to mod 5 its almost a new game. trs get nerfed really well which means they become balanced and gfs get buffed to become balanced. maybe a little op.
Well technically its still false information as that content is not on Xbox and theres no telling what kind of changes they will make before it does hit xbox.
He was, what i like to call, grasping at straws trying to prove his point.
Actually these threads usually end up with you becoming the main champion for nerfing Rogues in each one. I figured you would be for as many of these posts as people will make.
The one disadvantage to Rogues is they have to be up close to deal the big damage, and in stealth, and behind you. If you see a Rogue coming and he fades out, then don't stand there and wait for him to get to you. Give it a second and fire off an AE. Dodge when he becomes visible for the half second before he hits you. The stunlock stuff could be toned down a bit, but I get smashed for big damage from a couple of different classes.
If a Rogue catches you with your pants down, then there's not much you can do. But that's what the class is supposed to be good at. Roll in teams, and keep your eyes open. A good team coordinates their attacks and moves. Anyone trying to be a hero by themselves is just asking for it.
I haven't tried to disprove anything, call CW's OP, or TR's, or Dc's it really doesn't matter to me. There are concrete reasons for everything, and I've tried to help shed some light on that.
Nah, I have never trolled anyone. People are entitled to their opinions and I respect them. What I've done is provide proof to them on the full spectrum of things, and reasons why they are having difficulty in PvP, as well as some hints and tips of how to improve themselves. Trolling is making a thread saying /insert random Class "Is OP nerf them", and having nothing whatsoever to support the claim. You know, an adult conversation/debate?
I've posted videos of other classes doing the same damage as TR's(more in some cases), pre-mod 6, providing some insight to players that feel TR's are OP. I've also posted Mod 6 videos, like the GF above, showing the damage output that is possible from class's other than TR's, if geared properly.
Actually not true at all. All ive ever done was voice my own experiences. Then other rogues come in making up variables such as low GS, low tenancity, low skill etc. etc. I'm sure you're a rogue though.
I honestly could care less if they get nerfed or not, I will continue to play the game as is. I'm just not gonna sit here and act like I disagree with rogues having a clear advantage in pvp. Sorry thats hard for you to understand.
I rarely get killed on my DC, and when I do it's only because I don't pre-HoT and they catch me unawares. 90% of TRs abuse it and still fail to kill me, so as far as I'm concerned this is only a problem for squishies (protip: you'd die either way) or people who are playing at high gear/skill levels against evenly matched teams and the bug skews the score one way or the other. Rogues aren't as OP as you imagine, and if they ever get around to fixing the problem they'll just 2-shot you instead of it being a 1-shot.
Calm down and get some PvP gear, then figure out what you can use as a counter.
P.S. I don't play a TR.
P.P.S. Their survivability outside of stealth without PvP gear is abysmally low as it is. Nerfing it or removing in-combat stealth are lame solutions to a problem that has nothing to do with either of those two things. Suggest a fix that actually makes some sense and wouldn't break the class and maybe you'd get some of that respect you're jonesing for.
Gamertag: ReallyRecon
Now you are lying through your teeth. It's okay to get upset but man up to your words when the time comes. You've constantly called other peoples opinions "diarrhea" and have lashed out on players that you felt were "crying" about TR's being OP. It's okay to disagree but you are not respecting people's opinions as you say. I can dig up multiple post of yours which will validate that but lets not go there.
Me and you obviously do not agree which is why I have refrained from replying to you as I'm not looking to change your opinion but I will also stand my ground if needed.
And please stop acting as if everyone that complains about TR's are noobs and you are just trying to help them better understand the game cause that is not always the case. You're constantly making up situations in your post as to why x happened rather than take someones opinion as it is.
It was good chatting with you though.
You seem like a down to earth kinda dude, which is why I'm always so confused by your responses.
Fine, you think TR's have an advantage in PvP, that's your opinion.
But saying that I'm making up variables is not true at all. Because, its the truth..in every way factual, when I talk about gearing properly for PvP. Its not my opinion that you need Tenacity in PvP, if you don't have it, you get crushed. Math is there to prove it all.
The only time I have talked about Skill, was when you mentioned that any person, can put in random points into a TR, and dominate getting 30+ kills. I disagreed. My opinion is that every class in this game, including TR's are easy to play. But excelling in every class in this game requires player skill, and especially excelling in PvP takes a huge amount of skill.
These are the posts that I don't respect. These are not opinions, they are internet diarrhea and most people would agree with me.
Thread- "TRs are OP nerf them!" - They kill me in PvP so easy brah, like wow ...that lishing daggery thing they do like, just wow brah..it ownzors me so yah..we should like you know, take it away dudes or like I dunno, make the cool down like 13 minutes or something. yolo
You as well, which is why i say you have evolved to a troll over the last month. Ive read a lot of your post and you've been coming off pretty hostile with the whole "diarrhea" thing.
We both have our opinions and that is fine with me. I dont expect everyone to agree with me nor do I want them to. Lets just leave it at that as I have to return to business but I hold no hard feelings toward you or anyone else that disagrees with me.
Gamertag: ReallyRecon
Calls two people a clown then says if you can say anything nice to take a break.
Logic, do you speak it?
Gamertag: ReallyRecon
So the text will appear twice -- once on activate (accumulate damage) and again on strike (deliver damage) -- but said bonus damage is only applied once. What makes it so powerful is that it goes through pretty much all resistances (AC, defense, deflection, etc.). That's a lot of damage, but I don't think it's a double-proc. Going stealth (always crit), hitting with Gloaming Cut three times, and finishing with Lashing Blade is a ton of damage on its own, but getting hit again with 50% of it (between 15k-25k for my TR) as I roll away is devastating. And if I throw in Shocking Execution as well... you get hit twice with several thousand points of (mostly) unblockable damage (SE ignores defense).
Of course, I'm pretty defenseless for about 10 seconds after that, but that won't matter if you are running alone. I'm not sure about the cool down though. It seems it will proc every time I stealth, which is about every 10 seconds... or less. That part seems a bit broken, but I still don't think it's a double-proc.
You're spot on with this bit o' knowledge you dropped on the thread though. Other than the ease of build/play I mentioned earlier, I think a big part of why people think TRs are OP is because they aren't playing as a team or they're trying to out-rogue rogues. Maybe it's a holdover from shooters (this is a console crowd after all) and all the lone-wolf run-and-gunners (MLG try-hards) are still stuck in that mentality...
Thread- "TRs are OP nerf them!" - They kill me in PvP so easy brah, like wow ...that lishing daggery thing they do like, just wow brah..it ownzors me so yah..we should like you know, take it away dudes or like I dunno, make the cool down like 13 minutes or something. yolo[/QUOTE]
Did you know, that saying those posts are not opinions, is simply your opinion? You are in fact rude, especially with the last paragraph. Seriously that is belittling people at its finest for their OPINIONS. The only diarrhea I see is your ignorant words. But guess what, that's just an opinion. You may have played this game on PC, then for some reason come to a downgraded version on Xbox where your precious rogues SEEM to be op. You may know every counter in the book for a rogue, but hey, this is a new port to Xbox where probably 80-90% of player base is new, and do not know counters. So seriously, if you can't be constructive, if these posts make you rage, just stop showing up to them, it would be easier for those trying to be constructive, and less headache for you.
Now, on topic. I'm curious. Doubt a fix will happen, but in my opinion, its not the rogues damage that's a problem, its their stealth. Only class that can stealth to run, or stealth to go on assualt. Sure some can say a cleric is op, but as he heals himself, he can't really damage you, and if he can, it won't be as much as if he wasn't busy ensuring his survival.
Here could be a solution. Don't take away rogues stealth as it is a trademark. But instead, why not just make them slower under stealth. Seriously, if your being stealthy, your being slow and quiet. In elder scrolls I believe you had to crouch to stealth. So why not make TRs actually have to think about what they are doing in stealth. Not just go invis n start running. Cut speed in half, or even 25% lower. They could use equips with movement to balance but that would take away burst damage. It essentially would make it a class that's not just, throw some power on go invis n rip somones spine out(have no idea if that's what TRs do).
Good idea? Can I have a rogues opinion that isn't hell bent on saying no fixes needed?
Man, I hate when PvP crybabies ruin an excellent PvE experience because they're not getting their way in the tacked on repetition fest that is competitive multiplayer. I hope Mod 6 is a long way off for XB1.
If they changed the stealth mechanic like you mentioned, it wouldn't be a Trickster Rogue. It would be something completely different. TR's in NW are not Rogues in other MMO's like new players keep bringing up.
They have however changed the stealth aspect significantly since day 1. For example, a TR can only do damage IN stealth for all of one encounter now, not to mention those encounters have a long cool down. Where as they used to be able to consistently damage you with at-will's like Cloud of Steel, and perma TR's used to be able to achieve 100% stealth. That is no more.
A TR isn't as stealthy as some might think, do you listen to the game sound? If so, you can always hear a TR when they are next to you. Deft Strike for example, depending how fast your reaction time is, makes a pretty obvious sound if you are listening, and you can dodge that encounter. Same as Lashing Blade, the sound happens before the damage. Hear the sound>dodge, Hear the sound<don't dodge>get hit.
You can also see the TR's daggers when they are using ranged at-wills while in stealth. Just have to pay attention.
I'm not sure why people keep saying TR's are getting nerfed in Mod6, as that is not the case. I'm not going to go into detail but you should definitely check out the changes. They've increased damage on a lot of encounters, increased Dazing Strike to 5 seconds up from 3, increased Deft Strike damage by 20%. They reduced damage of First Strike, and made every hit reduce stealth by 15% to name a few., Oh also, hits in stealth are 100% crit chance, and 50% Crit Severity. Far as I can tell they've made TR's do more damage, but less time in Stealth, and significantly harder to play as a Perma.