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Learned spellcaster or prestidigitation?
dodgo
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 870 Arc User
bear in mind i can only get 2 points in it...
what u guys think; which is best (PVP)
what u guys think; which is best (PVP)
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because it give more stat, not only damage but defense, recovery, ...
INT is a flat damage to your weapon and the higher your INT is, better the Learned Spellcaster is. If you have low INT (say, lower than 30), perhaps you shouldn't really opt for it, but then again you can play it like that.
Given that Spell Twisting is a must in the current day and time for PvP, I do not think that Prestidigitation will make a lot of difference to begin with. Bear in mind that it is YOU who give it to others so you have no real benefit from the feat. It's purely altruistic and unless you have really a lot of Power/HP/Arpen, the mere 3% won't even be felt for PvP where TRs are practically insta-stealth and GWF-s practically unstoppable.
You'd want more burst damage and that's what Learned Spellcaster will give you. Unless you have a team of 5 CWs with prestidigitation and high enough stats, it really doesn't pay-of.
You lose too much for some minor party avantage.
CWs already give far better party buffs than this one (Bitter Cold, renegade buffs, not to mention mof buffs).
You're incorrect here.
The math of Learned Spellcaster is (1+(Learned Spellcaster Rank)(Int-10)/100). So someone with 30 Intelligence will get a 1.2% damage boost per rank of Learned Spellcaster for a 6% damage boost at rank 5.
I tested it and derived the formula.
It took a long time. Cast a spell many, many times while ACT is running. Determine the min, max, and average damage of both crits and non-crits. Increase Int by 1. Repeat. Increase Int by 1. Repeat. Keep going until you have the damage mapped from ~15 to 30 Intelligence.
The repeat the process with 1 rank of Learned Spellcaster. Repeat it again with 2 ranks. And so on, and so forth.
I started playing in Module 2 and one of the first things I did with this game was to derive the damage formulas and figure out how all of the feats work since their descriptions are woefully inaccurate and, in many cases, flat out wrong.
Ah. That's because I made a mistake. I tried to give it from memory. The correct formula is:
(Rank Learned Spellcaster)*(1+(Int-10)/100)
Sorry about that. At rank 5 it is 6% with 30 Int.
damage increase = 3% of power + 3% of armor pen
compared to 1.26 - 1.224 = 3.6% damage increase loss for 5 points to only 2 points.
If we take that Arm pen reduce def by 50% so the bonus give 1.5% damage increase then we need the power buff to be a 2.1% damage buff. 0.021/0.03=0.7 we need enough power to give a 70% damage increase (28000 power rating).
it only work if other factor like 3% more defense isn't tallken into account.
That's 3%= 900 Power and 3%= 255 Armor penetration additionally.
Say that you have 25.000 Power and 6.000 Armor penetration.
That's 3%= 750 Power and 3%= 180 Armor penetration.
Say that you have 20.000 Power and 4.500 Armor penetration.
That's 3%= 600 Power and 3%= 135 Armor Penetration.
Given the new stat curves, the difference is so weak that it doesn't pay off, at all, because by the time you get to the point where it pays-off, you REALLY won't need it because you'd prefer a flat increase that scales well with Weapon damage (INT after all) and not with Power/based damage.
Anywho, 255 arpen at 8500 is really not that important and won't make any substantial change, unless you'd play for 10 hours, clearing the non-existent Castle Never.
Have you actually tested that under reasonable conditions? To my knowledge, it doesn't bring much to the table the way it's envisioned, and then again it makes up for the exclusive CW party and you'd have to be at a reasonable distance. Even with 5 CWs, you only get 4 buffs, that's 12% of their collective stat increase to certain attributes (not all).
Still, the exclusive CW party would still be far stronger with investing in the INT.
The only question would be whether to invest 2 points in
a) Prestidigitation
b) Learned spellcaster
Only in such a scenario prestidigitation wins given that you have really a very high stat, but by that time you're already hitting a very non-significant area.
The only way it doesn't is if the Party has low INT to begin with, which currently no end-game build should given that the stat curves got ridiculously worse.
That aside, to my knowledge, it doesn't work on the stats given to you by pets or boons. Might be wrong on this, but there's no comprehensive testing done to measure the effectiveness of prestidigitation in the case of having a 5-man CW team. I see what you want to do, I just don't think it's practical and pays-off in the longer run due to the plausibility of playing solo, as well, where that additional burst alongside with few heroism potions will prove to be much more useful.
If Prestidigitation gave 9%, that would be a viable option, especially with the conclusion how low everything is now
So you can admit your mistakes, huh? (Thinks about HV 30% mistake)
While you provide many useful data on forum (what I appreciate), I can`t understand why you keep this HV 30% mistake on.
btw. this formula is true.
I`ve made some tests yet on preview soon before module 6 and
Every point of Learned Spellcaster gives (summary):
So one point will give, for example:
+1.15% damage at 25 INT (25-10=15, 1+15/100=1.15)
+1.17% damage at 27 INT (27-10=17, 1+17/100=1.17)
+1.20% damage at 30 INT (30-10=15, 1+20/100=1.20)
So 5 points at 30 INT will give +6% damage (5*1.20% =6%)
Here is my data table with INT 21-27; LS rank 0-5 matrix.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OMikuHjd3Nm4DHgqxAC-xr7V3jclgRlMkR8uAkdIDo0/edit?usp=sharing
The values are simply Doohickey damage since its fixed damage (unlike spells damage).
No need for ACT; Doohickey makes the job.
__________________________________________________
On low/meh geared characters, Learned Spellcaster results in a higher DPS.
On good/BiS geared characters, Prestidigitation provides more DPS, especially in PvP.
I am meh geared and Prestidigitation gives me quite less DPS than LS.
I`ll compare 1 point of each since they are both linear.
10k power /100= 100 power = +0.25% damage
5k critical chance /100= 50 critical chance = +0.125% damage (I have over 100% critical severity in PvP (I don`t use vorpal at all))
5k arpor pen /100= 50 arpor pen = +0.36% damage (at 80% arp resist (100% - (80%*1/3) = 73%; 50 * 73% = 36))
5k recovery /100= 50 recovery = +0.125% damage (since lower CD = more DPS)
It`s +0.86% damage while LS could give me +1.17% damage with my 27 INT.
However, I run with enchants rank 7, no legendary artifact equipment, no mythic artifacts.
Assuming just offense enchants up from rank 7 to 12 (darks) and unlock offense slots at mainhand and cloak, I`ll get additional +510 armor pen * 5 +700 armor pen *2 = +2550 +1400 = +3950 armor pen.
3950 /100 = 39.5 armor pen = +0.29% damage.
It`s +1.15% damage.
Then, add new shirts/pants/jewelries/purple set etc. It will be over mentioned 1.17% and even 1.20% from 30 INT.
And what on PvE?
It`s for all party members. It means, it is always better for party even at low CW ratings.
Summary: Until you are BiS geared, LS provides you more damage.
Once you will gear up, Prestidigitation will give you more damage (not mentioning other stats like movement).
For PvE it`s always better to use Prestidigitation since it helps the whole party and summary, provides more goods that LS puppy dps increase for just CW.
My advice
Use Prestidigitation.
On low geared characters, the party help is more valuable than your personal dps boost (well, you suck, help better geared characters to make dps).
On well geared characters, both you get more dps and your party gets more goodies so everybody will be happy.
PS
I miss the sun icon for the CW. Currently; all party members gains the buff sun icon, but the owner (who gains the stat increase, but not the buff icon itself).
WOAH! Since when did the quality of the gear determine when the CW sucks exactly? I would say gear contributes about 20%, the rest is skill and the build you are using. Saying that because someones gear is bad, they suck, is a parallel that really cannot be drawn as the two things don't correlate. As someone who has NEVER had BiS gear and who performs above average, I take offense to being blanket told I suck because my char only has 2.2k IL
The whole problem is the new stat curve. 3% is good for levelling but after level 61 when the new curve hit pretty hard, the value drop a lot in the defensive stat.
So until in a party with 3 mage or more, the gain won't be significant enough to be visible.
And in BiS gear, having 3% more percent in stat won't matter as the stat that make the most use of it will be capped (arm pen, crit, etc). So outside of pvp, it won't matter. For pvp, there's no real cap to arm pem and defensive stat matter a lot more.
If I should resume my point of vu :
PvE - 5/5 Learned Spellcaster
PvP - 3/3 Focused Wizardry + 2/3 Prestidigitation
Read the topic before answering please to avoid making off-topic next time.
We can continue the discussion on the High Vizier set bonus when you replicate the test I show here:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?899361-Is-High-Vizier-Finally-Marginalized&p=10655031&viewfull=1#post10655031
and you share your results. Until then, I'm not particularly interested in continuing the discussion with you.
I tire of arguments where I put forward a case of "here's how this works and here's the evidence" and the only response I get is "nah-uh." Followed by me responding "yes, and here's more evidence. Please show me your evidence to the contrary." only to be greeted with another "nah-uh."
You prepare your stats to be exactly 30% under the armor pen cap (or close to) and choose weak enemy that 1450 will pass the 30%.
This is far behind "evidence".
And how you want from me "evidence" for someting that does not exists?
Math fail.
My character had 11% less Resistance Ignored than needed. Not 30%.
If you would DO THE TEST YOURSELF you would easily be able to see that the 30% increase in damage held no matter what a characters armor penetration is and no matter what enemy you face.
But you won't ever learn that because you won't ever do the test.
Any fair-minded individual can do this for themselves and see the truth.
Dude, you are completely clueless.
P.S. In the other post, I told you exactly how to validate the bonus by comparing the specific damage output from parses. Abaddon told you exactly how to check it by reading the combat log.
well-minded individuals knows that mobs have defense and knows that overcapping arp will reult in additional, unexisting damage increase in log but not in game due to meh written damage logs.
But
fair-minded inviduals will check it and change their mind.
meh-minded individuals will keep spreading the lie.
Unfortunatelly, we`re not allowed to present mined data, source code nor server-side data, thus I cannot show you the other proof than your logic fails. As long as you undercap arp, test on dummies etc. you will always see false 30%.
Any "clueness" etc posts makes the same thing, spreads the same, wrong information using the same, wrong methods.
It`s really sad.
Keep doing your things your way, I'll probably keep doing my things my way.
As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
I told about combat log, not damage on screen.
You can make your things however you want.
I make my things honestly and earnestly.
Even in private if you're not allowed to show it here.
Still waiting for you to repeat the test.
Scientist: I mixed chemicals A and B together and got result C. Here's my data.
Beatannier: No. You're wrong.
Scientist: No, really. Look. Here's the data. Here's my calculation method. Go and test it for yourself.
Beatannier: You're spreading lies. You're part of a cult spreading misinformation.
Scientist: Just GO DO THE TEST. Replicate the test. Present your results. That's how intelligent people adjudicate disagreements about objective data.
Beatannier: blah blah source code, mined data, armor pen, false 30%.
Scientist: TEST!
This gets so tiresome.
Go.
Do.
The.
Test.
If you have results that differ from mine, I would love to see them and discuss them. If you do no data with which to contradict the evidence then I have no interest in your objections.