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wilmb
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 2 Arc User
I realize that the class as it currently is, is meant to be an attention grabber. I expect that the class is going to be nerfed hard in the next major patch. Then nerfed several times thereafter. Fighting against them still feels like a kick in the stomach. A single competent pally can hold off four other players easily.
If you want to know what it feels like to play as an mmo boss monster this is your chance.
I am still deliberating on whether or not to make a pally, it must be quite a rush, again I suspect we have a limited time to experience the current paladin.
Quite frankly fighting against one is no fun at all. They are practically immortal, they make all melee classes, and clerics, obsolete. You don't need dps if you cannot die.
Pvp is capture the flag, a paladin can guard a obelisk indefinitely by himself.
So far after several pvp sessions I have managed to kill two paladins. The first time there was a cleric healing me so I didn't kill myself with reflected damage. The second time, the paladin just didn't use any healing skills for some reason...
thoughts?
If you want to know what it feels like to play as an mmo boss monster this is your chance.
I am still deliberating on whether or not to make a pally, it must be quite a rush, again I suspect we have a limited time to experience the current paladin.
Quite frankly fighting against one is no fun at all. They are practically immortal, they make all melee classes, and clerics, obsolete. You don't need dps if you cannot die.
Pvp is capture the flag, a paladin can guard a obelisk indefinitely by himself.
So far after several pvp sessions I have managed to kill two paladins. The first time there was a cleric healing me so I didn't kill myself with reflected damage. The second time, the paladin just didn't use any healing skills for some reason...
thoughts?
Post edited by wilmb on
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Openforbreakfast I'm assuming you re rolled pally.
The level doesn't matter openforbreakfast, if you have been playing these games for a while ( MMO's ), you would realize when something is broken simply by the mechanics of the class not the numbers. ( Please don't respond with I've played xx for xx years I do not care )
Pally's need to be reworked, clerics are indeed obsolete. If you are a melee against a pally you might as well just sit at the camp fire.
You are right on the money when you said Pally's just sit nodes and never die cause that's all you see even at lvl 70 still.
Just hang tight, let it play out for a bit and I'm sure Neverwinter will reword some class mechanics for the pally's.
Last but not least, openforbreakfast your an *** hole and due to your lack of kindness I will disregard your words. Rat.
THAT was spot on and let me be more clear
My main is a TR,and i also play HR and DC (i play every class, i just enjoy those 3 so when i say "play" i mean respecced-geared-booned)
so wlimb.....
1:I rolled a palladin based on the thought that they might be the class that gives an edge in pve in order to help my guild to gear up
2:I leveled him to 70 and started taking boons with him , i would say that he is mid gear so far
3:Its the best co-op class in this game by far , which means it can double team and hold (at least for some time) a cap with almost every class that knows to play alongside a palladin
4:Its the ONLY class that resembles an actuall DnD class so I have to admit that in this case cryptic did a fine job (there aint many such cases so we have to support such efforts and)
5:everyone in my guild knows how AND WHEN to counter a palladin
6:it can be 1v1'd by all classes when played right
7:EVERYONE in my guild knows how AND WHEN to counter a palladin
8:STOP THESE NERF THREADS FIRST ASK A FRIEND OF A SPECIFIC CLASS HOW TO COUNTER IT AND THEN TRY TO TALK ABOUT IT
9: plz i dont take my opinion as an anti-nerf one.I play this game for almost 1,5 years now and I think I deserve some respect
10:see again #6
11:NOTHING can make DC obsolete
12:SW's were so-called obsolete until palladin came in this game
13: I'm guessing that if there was no new class in this mod with the regen thingy you d be unhappy cause DC can ...heal?
14 not even a full week has passed and you re talking about a class no one knows its full potential? really?
15:have you seen a SW vs a palladin?
16:have you seen a GF vs a palladin?
wild guess: you tried to take down a palladin with a DC nearby
small tip : if you actually did that mentioned above stop play dnd games ASAP and i wont even bother explain why i say that. Its not a diss in your opinion its just a fact
Large tip : wait till their stamina ends and tell me again if you can't kill a palla
Huge tip : play along side an instigator that has mighty leap and tell me how weak a palla can be
P.S. see again #8
thank you all for reading
Need to heal? Don't bother with the buggy potions on the map, just go stand in the aoe of a friendly pally.
The class can reflect full damage back at a melee opponent, including bleeds and poison. It can also just totally ignore damage from all sources and angles for several seconds. The temporary hp they can gain is ridiculous, and they can give temp hp to others as well. They have an aoe stun. From what I have seen, a player who has their pally skill rotation memorized can pretty much live forever. Chain stunning with two rogues or a rogue and a cw? nope even if you catch them by surprise, up go the temp hp, and or the aoe stun, and they just run around for a bit till one of those skills refreshes. I have partied with a few good paladins, and they go to a node and tell the rest of us, to ignore it because he can hold it. They do, they hold it so well that they finish the round with no deaths and upwards of ten kills. Or games where two opposing paladins sit on a node in perpetual combat for the entire run. Maybe, like me, you have managed to kill a few paladins who were inexperienced or who had connection problems, but a competent pally is a boss. In fact I wonder why I haven't seen any threads about paladin characters soloing dungeons their own level...
I'm sure they fall like paper in pve even at 70, i have no idea, but in pvp, they are just match ruiners. I ignored him the rest of the match, I just used repel eveytime I saw him to be annoying, but really, I would have prefered to a fight a BIS tr and dc duo then a paladin, at least there is a chance to kill them. Very stupid when you can't hurt an oppenent at all but yet you can still kill yourself trying. They still found a way to make money from suckers who spend money on cheese.
Drakeos Shadowbow - 60 Combat Pathfinder Hunter Ranger (Alt/retired)
Falados - Drow (Mez) Level 60 Trickster Rogue - Offically retired
Drakeos - Drow (Mez) Scourge Warlock/Druid (retired)
I don't even know what that means. I have 54% on my tr I don't think I can kill anyone with it. Not like he could have had the deflect boon from sharandar since there is no way he could have got there yet. And if a whole team can't kill a paladin that is fresh 60 there is obviously something wrong. Let me have perma itc on my TR or perma shield on my cw, then I would have no problem with it. At the momen they are in pvp what flies are when your eating outside, annoying. Ignoring them has been the best tactic, I can cc them forever but since they are invincible why even bother. Better to just leave them alone and let them run around chasing people or fight each other. More then one in the opposite team and it's just sit at the campfire.
I have a level 50 paladin msyelf and did some pvp's. Dumped him because if I get use to playing pvp with that class I'm going to suck *** playing with any of the other 12 toons I have since all of them I actually have to worry about taking damage in pvp. The paladin is like the class for all the people that liked gf's but didn't have the skill to play them, like trainer gf's.
The biggest problem on 70 with Pal right now is protector daily (essential for PvE content and nerfing it globally will kill tanking Pal potential tremendously) which redirects 100% damage from team to pal and gives him 80% unmitigated DR for freaking 20 seconds (on 4th point), after activating daily you activate binding oath and you take 10% damage and this value is mitigated even more by armor, this is broken in PvP and need to be addressed. Duration of Binding oath and Protector should be cut in half in PvP. Paladin don't need big nerfs to be balanced, little adjustments to Lay Hands, Judgement, fixing some infinite heal bugs for devotion path, TRs and CWs on the other hand... I play CW as main and I must say that sometimes I feel like playing with god mode on, just mashing buttons, feats doing everything.
You guys are probably having problem with binding oath, cleansing touch, templars wrath, lay hands combo and you don't have any idea how this skills work. Pal hp bar won't go down with binding oath because damage is stored and he takes 50% of it after effect ends (6s on 3rd point), reflecting 20% of it in 15 range, this can kill him but If you see him activating it don't attack, change target, count 4 seconds, after you see yellow circle from him unleash all encounters.
+1
people are uderestimating the Pals.Bonus damage a lot of auras and a tested rotation will make short work against most classes.
People that play Pals are now severelly undergeared,no boons,need experience to find their rotation,and generlly experience to learn the class and how to adapt vs other classes.
Pal is Gf V.20.It cannot go wrong.360 degree block?
360 degree block? Not quite. Paladins can only block CC in front of them.
You guys forgetting also about one thing, GF can do much more damage than Paladin. In mod 6 GF are beasts and as CW I have really hard time dealing with them now.
Exactly. 10 chars
Thats how TRs were pretty much always, so where is the prob?
Pre max lvl pvp always was and always will be imbalanced, you either can enjoy it or ignore it, you won't lose anything.
Funny...I just slayed a GWF and pally on my lock in domination the other night. Both heavily geared, me in Grim PvP armor. They die just like and other class. All you need is a basic understanding of tactical awareness and player predictability.
My only issue though is one of the paladins dailys, not sure what one but paladins hit me about 10-15k through guard. I'm not sure if my shield even blocks it because even a bis rogues shocking execution can't do that much through block.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You know that you need to know how a class works to counter it, right?
So, either:
- A player levels a pally to 70 and play it. 99% of players can't do that cause gearing up 1 toon is already enough time-consuming. Or you just throw away your old toon and start a Paladin as your main, but then pretty sure your issues in PvP will not be coming from your own class. Either way, only a small % of players can go this route.
- You are in a PvP guild/ dedicated guild and you can go test stuff so you learn to vs each class. They do that but again, it's only a % of players, usually PvP guilds who can take the time to go with a geared X class mate to really test stuff well or train in specific vs.
- You go read which powers a class has on the wiki but then you don't know how they look in-game (for example, you say "don't throw your rotation on binding oath or protaction daily". So, how do these powers look once activated/ how do you recognize them? You then need to look for gameplay videos of said lvl 70 class, Paladin in this case, and see for yourself how each power look. For example, Protection daily seems to look like a blue sphere surrounding the Paladin. But again, doing that for each and every power? More affordable than the first 2 options, but still not quite practical+ not many lvl 70 Paladin videos+ videos don't show every power you need to know.
- You play for months and learn the hard way roughly how to fight a class. I did that with old mod1-2 permastealth TRs but still needed some tips and some good player was kind enough to actually post a few very useful tips instead of replying with a "L2P" post.
So, another way could be if the players acting all high and mighty about how you need to know Paladins to kill them, would actually post some quick guides and tips about fighting Paladins. For example, during module 2-3 i posted guide threads/ posts about how to counter a GWF in details, how unstoppable looked like and worked, and what you needed to do to effectively counter the class/ have a chance to fight back.
Now, it would be so nice if people like you, instead of posting "L2P" stuff, would actually do the same: open a thread/ reply, explain "hey guys, Paladins have powers/ mechanic X, Y and Z, they look like this and you need to do these things to fight them".
If you want fun fights, you look for balance and if you really are a good player you should have no problem explaining other players how your class basic mechanics work so they can actually fight on equal footing without going up on of the 4 routes mentioned above.
I'm actually trying to grasp the Paladin mechanics on my own but really, i don't think it would cost Paladin players much to actually create a "how to fight Paladins" quick guide.
It's also in your very interest cause that way you avoid a "nerf paladins" flood of threads.
Also it helps finding where real unbalance is. Cause, for example, if the counter proposed by a class is doable, you know that is not something broken.
If the solution proposed is absurd (example, TRs saying that to counter their class you just need to train hours vsing BiS TRs, or nail a 0.2s chance with a daily to catch the TR, or learn to predict where an invisible enemy is).
I don't see any thread explaining players how the new class works and how to fight it.
Paladins can be ok damage dealers with the right encounters. However, most of their damage come from at-wills and divine judgement daily. Since Paladin has basically only 1s stun encounter you can forget about dealing damage in PvP. But boy, they can tank!
Well, my main is a CW and I started Paladin only to learn it's skills (to best support him in PvE) and how to counter them in PvP and after getting to 70 and testing few things I am back to my CW. There really isn't much useful skills in PvP truth to be told, tons of redundancy. I must state here also that I think CW is much more broken than Pal with combination of Storm Spell and Shield.
- For starters the best strategy to counter paladin is to send one range player against him (it's enough, if you want to kill him in seconds send 2 ranged players), HR and CW is hard counter against him, SW with shadow walk buff also shouldn't have problems. Paladin has awful mobility and even worse gap closers (only 2, one 30 range at-will radiant strike and one 50 range bugged lunged encounter at end game which is pretty much also 30), if you are 30 range and take one step backwards he absolutely can't do anything and I mean anything, no range skill, radiant strike will always rubberband, so if you dodge away/use HR encounter to make distance and walk backwards he can't stick to you. If you get careless and he somehow got close to you he only has one short stun and that's all of his CC that can be used in PvP, you can just blink back and he is in square one, there is no easier class to kite. Paladin absolutely can't do anything about range player in high place, nothing, use it to your advantage.
- Roots go through sanctuary, same with CW Icy Rays use it and same thing, he can't do anything, he is sitting duck and can only wait or use cleansing touch (CC breaker) but slotting that he doesn't have damaging encounter (templar's wrath is a must if you want to survive) or gap closer or binding oath and can damage you with only at-wills, which are melee and close range only
-Paladins don't do enough damage to be a real threat (at least on 70), you can just ignore/repel them, you don't need to fight them, just knock them outside of node with sunburst, bulls charge, repel, etc. or lure him out, he can't hold sanctuary indefinitely and it bugs often so you don't need to be cautions about your CCs like with GF. It's same situation as Turtle GFs in previous mods but much easier to kill.
- Paladins don't have CCs that can be utilized in PvP. One is Templars wrath which is 1s 30 range AoE stun. Second is burning light 30 range charged AoE daze, longer you charge it, longer daze last, charging is telegraphed with Paladin hands gathering yellow light (ugh just create paladin and you will see animation in tutorial, it's the first encounter you will get), dodging it is trivial but if you are caught in it don't get close to your teammates as player hitted by it starts to be source of daze himself (not Paladin but target taking damage). 3-4 (not really sure here) second charge which can be interrupted by any CC = 3-4 second daze, really hard to utilize against any normal players as it's easy to interrupt , dodge or just walk outside of range. Third pseudo CC is avenger lunge encounter which doesn't CC target but small area around him is getting proned (I don't remember 10-20), if you aren't stick to paladin's target it won't do anything.
- The worst thing you can do against Pal is fighting him with 2-3 melee classes like TRs, GWFs close to him as he can replenish his temp hp this way. If there are no players in 30 range from him or they dodge, have strong DR, shield up he won't get enough temp hp. Templar's wrath which gives those temp hp is 30 range, low damage, AoE 1s stun. 300% of it's damage is converted to temp hp so it's really effective only against multiply targets close to Pal and is pretty much useless 1vs1 if you dodge or have high DR, shield up or other DR mechanic like ITC on.
- TRs strategy 1vs1 against Pal which works is changing to range, be outside 30 range (all TRs range skills have 40+) or use smoke bomb, just dodge in, smoke bomb (cleansing touch won't help him as he will be dazed second time), unleash what you got, smoke end/he walks from it, dodge back, stealth, keep 30 distance, you can bleed every Pal this way. It's nothing new but you shouldn't parade near him as he will replenish temp hp with templar's wrath if you don't dodge on time or daze you with burning light (but seriously if you are getting hit by it you should really train your dodging). Was killed with this strategy many times, Paladin can only stall for time here, he will be dead eventually but he will be holding node/earn points for that time.
- If you see Paladin in Ice Knife throwing pose or hear Guardian of Fate daily sound (I think it's the same) dodge, hold shield up, use sprint or other DR mechanic, if you won't, you will be probably dead (if not pvp specced) or severely injured. It's divine judgement and it can hit like a truck, it's easy to dodge and if you are grouped with other players it's divided equally among you but it's deadly and it's pretty much the only thing that paladin can kill you with (same situation as DC Hammer of Fate in previous mods, devs don't learn).
To summarize, take 30+ distance and Paladin is hopeless, don't fight him with many melee squishy players, search how binding oath looks (blue rays getting inside Pal) and leave him alone for 4-6 seconds or just CC him when you see it coming and after he releases yellow circle around him (sorry I really don't know how to describe it and lazy enough to make a video) finish him off. Of course you can burn him with binding oath on but you will see effect on Pal's hp bar after it ends and then it will reflect about 10% (20% of 50%) you did to him in 30 area around him. This magic 30 range is everywhere, auras also have this range, there is feat to make them 40 but it currently doesn't work for most auras and causing some other bugs. All classes can fight Paladin 1vs1 and win without problems, sometimes it can be stalemate (which shouldn't be a problem, if he can't kill you, don't expect that you should kill him) but range classes have absolute advantage against him.
It's all about protection oath paladin, devotion will be easier to kill but he can change single handy battle outcome same as healing cleric, he should be focused first (he doesn't have protector daily, binding oath and much less DR so it should be relatively easier). For now there are some bugs on devotion, like infinite heals (same as DC), and infinite burning guidance proccings, some enhancements are totally bugged (bloodtheft) so some reports about pals may be bugs which works for all classes. This things were reported many times on preview and they are still in live and people abuse them. Some of your invincible problems may be from this but I personally didn't have any problems killing Paladins so far.
I also stated here, on preview or in other threads what for sure needs to be addressed in Pal PvP.
- Sanctuary (shift mechanic) doesn't work all the time, sometimes Paladin goes in GF stance and sanctuary doesn't activate no matter how long you hold it
- Paladin really needs some reliable gap closer
- Paladin really needs at least one more CC, now it has only one short 30 range AoE stun and that's all you can truly use in PvP
- Judgement daily hits too hard for such tanky character, range is close (tooltip says 40, but I am not sure if it's not 30 actually) and it doesn't have CC but in my opinion it should be on par with GF indomitable battle strike (or what it's called) damage wise. To make it for this big damage nerf it shouldn't be divided by targets number, I think this will be fair enough and balanced
- Divine protector and binding oath durations are too long for PvP, 20 seconds of almost invulnerability (100% unmitigated DR for team and 80% for Pal) for whole team near you is too much. Binding oath is 50% unmitigated DR which is reduced even more by armor, for this kind of mechanic it last too long (8s on 4th point) in PvP. I propose to cut those durations in half in PvP and PvP only, nerfing it globally will make tanking impossible for Paladin in mod6 end game content
- Templar's wrath giving too much temp hp, make it that it only gives temp hp from single target hit or reduce it to 150% in PvP. Same, only in PvP, in PvE it's essential for tank survival
- cleansing touch shouldn't break from prone as it's the only skill in game that can do it
- echo feat needs cooldown (not to severe, 20-30s should be ok) as it can sometimes trigger too much when spamming at-wills (rare situation in PvP but possible when people mindlessly zerg Pal)
First off, what class are you "Rogue probably", Secondly they should leave them just as they are. I am happy about having Paladins in the game and hitting hard, setting people on fire and leading the charge in body counts. I cannot wait to see one in full upgraded black ice with full boons taking on the Rogue community.
I'm happy with how they play currently and if your not, just as the Rogue community always say and I quote "ROLL ONE.".
Finally get a class in the game that makes Rogue perpetual invis builds obsolete and now they are crying for nerfs, Pfft :rolleyes:
-Kymos
Again, this may work on current Paladins wearing green and blue gear, none as I know it are in full PVP sets with full boons yet, once they are come back with some tactics then, "If they don't get nerfed before."
-Kymos
The instant you repel they will relent back to you, and then they can simply Rad to you, and at that point its just rinse and repeat the instance you try to cast anything Templar will go off or force you to shift, while Rad keeps purifying flames on you, and resets Relentless from echo proc's, or coming of cooldown on a 8-7 sec turn.
I have had that tactic used me a ton at 70, only works reliably if repel is available to you at engagement, and you are already out of Rad range.
now if on the 23rd if they implement the Paladin review they released on launch day, that wont work anymore either as it will provide 30% run speed, and smite will be ranged.