I'll start this by saying i now have accumulated countless hours of rogue pvp, here is what i have personally noticed. Most of the people complaining about the power of this class is the very same ones that want to sit stationary and bask in their glory. They sit there just waiting to be burst or my favorite the Rambo players. I'm john Rambo i can kill your whole team by myself.
Now when i fight a TEAM, teammates helping each other paying attention your not going to run around and do as you please its actually exposes rogues actual weakness. Sure you can still kill a straggler but staying alive is not as easy with not so many Rambo's. Next another glaring thing is alot of people don't play there class right then get mad and want to cry to the forum GODS when they get face rolled.
It's so many rogues that cant even play worth their salt, ive been hit to 10% hp and since i survived they are like duh? what to do he survived? Or they miss the big hit and are lost. I stay top 3 every match and its not because i have 1000 kills a fight its because i understand what where are actually trying to do. Be a team win the nodes.
Played correctly any class can dominate pvp save tanks they are more of an annoyance than a threat, they need some type of move maybe aoe that debilitates others damage by like 80% or something. It shouldn't always be about damage when buffing a class.
But in closing its some really bad players out there, get better raise the competition levels and then the devs can judge the classes, but anything now would just be a jerk reaction to the crying. I have had 1000 to 42 matches i dvr the those for the record. It's no reason to crush the opposition like that. But what happens they start quitting when they feel they will lose or are just bad. And then cry on the forums. I used to play city of heroes back in the day, they cried had the pvp nerfed til it was unplayable now the game is dead and gone lol.
After leveling a Rogue to 30 and playing mostly pvp, I can tell you it's A LOT easier to dominate as a rogue then it was playing my CW. And keep in mind I actually spent numerous days researching my CW to have an efficient build in pve and pvp. I have put very little research or effort into building this current rogue and have had nothing but success in pvp. Obviously I can't comment on end game pvp with a rogue as I have no interest in leveling this rogue any further and will actually be deleting this character. I just took people's advice and played a rogue in pvp to see what it's like.
Seeing how I pretty much through a build and set of skills together based on their descriptions and was still able to dominate makes it pretty clear to me that Rogues do indeed have quite the advantage in pvp. My very first game I went 23-2 and nearly doubled the points of the person in second place. Now I don't have games like that every single time but I went undefeated in quite a few matches while still maintaining the top spot. I've played a ton of matches with this rouge and can count on one hand how many times I didn't come in first.
Now I am pretty well versed in pvp even with my CE so I'm sure that helps, but it's undeniable that rogues have the advantage in pvp compared to other classes. Whether they are op or not is debatable depending on who you ask.
I also heard quite a few people say that rogues are one of the more difficult classes to play, that is not true IMO. I've had no issues with finding a decent build that works in pvp, and I pretty much just winged it. I did have a bit more trouble with CW and HR's than other classes but killing Tanks and GWf were no trouble at all. Even warlocks. Most of my time was pretty much spent stun locking someone and killing them before they could even think.
Once again I didn't level past lvl 30 so this was just a test run to see what early pvp was like as a rogue but I can only imagine what it would be like at lvl 60 with the same amount of time and research invested in this class as I did with my CW.
I was interested in the rogue class prior to playing this game but after leveling to 30 and running a ton of pvp, I have no interest in reaching end game with this character, will probably end up making an HR instead at this point.
Not trying to use this to further the debate that Rogues are op, I just simply did what was constantly suggested and played as a Rogue to see what it's like. And if endgame is anything like lvl 30, what I've been saying was pretty much confirmed.
yea TR is crazy overpowered worst i have ever seen in a mmo they out dps all other classes by miles in single target granted they should be better but right now they are far far better at single target then any other class should be nerfed a lot yes there are probably ways to stop them in pvp but if they hit u they should not do the insane dps they currently do
An equally geared spec'd right CW will out dps a rogue any day of the week on a single target, hands down.
TR's have high "burst" damage. They have excellent sustained dmg, but no where near a CW sustained. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.
As well, a geared and spec'd properly GF will have as high, if not higher burst dmg then a TR in PvP.
YouTube is a wonderful place, there are thousands of videos proving that.
Search "GF Montage", "CW Montage", etc etc.
Trickster Rogues in NW are very powerful.......in the hands of the right person, and even worse against a poorly geared spec'd inexperienced Player.
The problem in this game is an overwhelming majority of lack of knowledge on class's. In general, when a TR kills anyone, and quickly. Instead of trying to understand the how and the why, and building their OWN character to be competitive in PvP. They come to the forums and cry a TR got 20 kills in a PvP match and complain how unfair it is.
Currently I am lvl 58 on my TR. Not once...in well over a hundred matches, ...have I been "one shot" killed, or even had 75% of my damage taken in one hit...not by a TR, or a CW, or any other class. Is it because I am awesome and somehow am more special and know some special secret that the rest of you somehow do not know? The answer to that is no. The explanation is because I am gearing my character properly, suited for PvP.
Go into PvP with 0 Tenacity, poor health pool and lacking any sort of defenses, then yes...you will, and deserve.....to get one shot by a TR. Wait till your 60, every single class will be one shotting, except a DC, and even then..a pvp dps spec'd DC will destroy you as well in seconds.
There are hundreds of pages..well over 2 years of knowledge in this game sitting on the forums just waiting to be read. I strongly encourage you, and anyone else that is having problems in PvP and PvE, do stop wasting your time, and instead use it wisely by reading some of this amazing information a fingertip touch away.
Let me put this into perspective. Mind you, I do not know 100% the exacts of exactly how the math is used in this game to calculate things like defense, deflect, Tenacity..but I have a good understanding. I'm going to do some math for you and while It may not be exactly how its done, you will get the idea and it will be very close. For those that do know the math the proper way, feel free to correct me.
We are going to use Lashing Blade as a basis, as that is a TR's hardest hitting ability, and going off memory(not 100% exact)of what my personal defensive stats currently are, at lvl 58.
My stats off Memory are;
Defense 22%
Deflect 33%
Tenacity 22%
Lets say a TR hits me with Lashing blade, and he is not buffed.
His initial damage before anything is calculated is 15,000. Lets start doing the math, remember..I know for sure how I am doing it is not in the proper order, or 100% factual, but it is very close.
15,000 damage Minus 22% Tenacity = 11,700
11,700 damage Minus 22% Defense = 9,126
Now the Deflect will not mitigate an entire % worth of damage, but a portion of each hit, I'm not sure how to show that, but in my experience. That 9,126 hit would go down somewhere to 7.5-8k
My total health at lvl 58 is 27,000.
27,000 Health Minus 8,000 = 19,000 - That is 30% of my total health Pool.
Keep in mind again, Armor Penetration from the attacker plays a large role, and obviously debuffs, as well as the priority of how the math is done. But in a nutshell, its close.
Bottom line. If you gear your toon properly for PvP, the chances of getting completely one shot are very, very rare. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, because even at end game PvP it does, but it is extremely rare if you are building for PvP.
I know there are guys out there that know how the math works exactly, I would love to be taught so feel free to further explain.
An equally geared spec'd right CW will out dps a rogue any day of the week on a single target, hands down.
TR's have high "burst" damage. They have excellent sustained dmg, but no where near a CW sustained. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.
As well, a geared and spec'd properly GF will have as high, if not higher burst dmg then a TR in PvP.
YouTube is a wonderful place, there are thousands of videos proving that.
Search "GF Montage", "CW Montage", etc etc.
Trickster Rogues in NW are very powerful.......in the hands of the right person, and even worse against a poorly geared spec'd inexperienced Player.
The problem in this game is an overwhelming majority of lack of knowledge on class's. In general, when a TR kills anyone, and quickly. Instead of trying to understand the how and the why, and building their OWN character to be competitive in PvP. They come to the forums and cry a TR got 20 kills in a PvP match and complain how unfair it is.
Currently I am lvl 58 on my TR. Not once...in well over a hundred matches, ...have I been "one shot" killed, or even had 75% of my damage taken in one hit...not by a TR, or a CW, or any other class. Is it because I am awesome and somehow am more special and know some special secret that the rest of you somehow do not know? The answer to that is no. The explanation is because I am gearing my character properly, suited for PvP.
Go into PvP with 0 Tenacity, poor health pool and lacking any sort of defenses, then yes...you will, and deserve.....to get one shot by a TR. Wait till your 60, every single class will be one shotting, except a DC, and even then..a pvp dps spec'd DC will destroy you as well in seconds.
There are hundreds of pages..well over 2 years of knowledge in this game sitting on the forums just waiting to be read. I strongly encourage you, and anyone else that is having problems in PvP and PvE, do stop wasting your time, and instead use it wisely by reading some of this amazing information a fingertip touch away.
Let me put this into perspective. Mind you, I do not know 100% the exacts of exactly how the math is used in this game to calculate things like defense, deflect, Tenacity..but I have a good understanding. I'm going to do some math for you and while It may not be exactly how its done, you will get the idea and it will be very close. For those that do know the math the proper way, feel free to correct me.
We are going to use Lashing Blade as a basis, as that is a TR's hardest hitting ability, and going off memory(not 100% exact)of what my personal defensive stats currently are, at lvl 58.
My stats off Memory are;
Defense 22%
Deflect 33%
Tenacity 22%
Lets say a TR hits me with Lashing blade, and he is not buffed.
His initial damage before anything is calculated is 15,000. Lets start doing the math, remember..I know for sure how I am doing it is not in the proper order, or 100% factual, but it is very close.
15,000 damage Minus 22% Tenacity = 11,700
11,700 damage Minus 22% Defense = 9,126
Now the Deflect will not mitigate an entire % worth of damage, but a portion of each hit, I'm not sure how to show that, but in my experience. That 9,126 hit would go down somewhere to 7.5-8k
My total health at lvl 58 is 27,000.
27,000 Health Minus 8,000 = 19,000 - That is 30% of my total health Pool.
Keep in mind again, Armor Penetration from the attacker plays a large role, and obviously debuffs, as well as the priority of how the math is done. But in a nutshell, its close.
Bottom line. If you gear your toon properly for PvP, the chances of getting completely one shot are very, very rare. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, because even at end game PvP it does, but it is extremely rare if you are building for PvP.
I know there are guys out there that know how the math works exactly, I would love to be taught so feel free to further explain.
Cheers!
Alysin Chains - TR 58
A lot of what you're saying is true but you are clearly biased, which is not unexpected.
One thing I can takeaway after playing a rogue is that I didn't put even half the effort to build this Rogue as I did with my CW and I am already getting pretty ridiculous numbers in terms of points and kills. Not only is it easier to kill someone without even taking damage, but capping the towers have become insanely easier due to being able to stealth and move so quick.
A lot of what you're saying is true but you are clearly biased, which is not unexpected.
One thing I can takeaway after playing a rogue is that I didn't put even half the effort to build this Rogue as I did with my CW and I am already getting pretty ridiculous numbers in terms of points and kills. Not only is it easier to kill someone without even taking damage, but capping the towers have become insanely easier due to being able to stealth and move so quick.
If a TR was the only class I played then I would agree with you on me being biased, however I have countless videos on my youtube channel when I was playing my TR, CW, GWF, DC and HR, and stayed competitive at the highest end with all of them. My HR more so at the end before I quit. Feel free to watch some of my earlier days of PvP, keep in mind all the builds I was using are now outdated https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Kris+Spaulding
I definitely do my best when talking about a particular subject to not come off as "know it all", because clearly I do not, and am the first to admit it. But I do have many many hours, over the course of 2 years on 5 characters playing in PvP. I have seen the changes from release, to what they are now, and adjusted my characters to continue staying competitive to the best of my ability.
By even speaking in this topic, is against my better judgment because these threads generally end up in a flame fest. So with the knowledge that I do have, I want to try and best explain to new players especially, and old who may not know, or understand, there are reasons for 99.9% of what is happening to them in PvP. And the answer has never been "the class is OP". There have definitely in the past been the FOTM class's because of particular tweaks to abilities, but smart players have always found ways to change their perspective class to adjust. The answer however is not always simple, as there are many factors. First and foremost, Skill plays a landsliding majority of what happens in PvP in this game, next comes a proper build with decent gear.
I will always say this. That after you have done your homework, your class is built suitable for PvP, you have the right gear and everything is as it should be. You will STILL, get your butt handed to you in PvP from time to time. There is always someone better. Cant change that, and if you are the guy that gets so frustrated when you die in PvP that you break your own stuff or scream like a crazy person.....then PvP is definitely not for you.
I will agree Krad that a brand new person who picks a TR as his first class, with moderate skill is going to do decent in PvP, and more than likely not as good with another class. However, a person with experience in this game that has played on PC, will without a doubt do good with any class in PvP.
But a guy that consistently gets 20+ kills, pushing into that 30+ kill range with minimal deaths...is someone with a high amount of skill. You don't just make a TR, and get 30 kills.
I play nothing but PvP, at all hours of a 24 hour period. With well over a hundred matchs and well over 1000+ kills...I have met 2 TR's that were getting high numbers, and I guarantee they were not first time players.
Boy, this thread blew up. Now that I have played even more PVP (closing in on Bloodthirsty) I can say that Rogue still needs some work, however, a very geared and skilled player does still stand a chance 1 on 1, barring I don't just decide to run and re-stealth. (HR's/CW's for instance) In a team fight, where everyone is on equal footing and working together, the TR does start to show some weakness.
I can imagine once everyone has tenacity and a larger HP pool, this crazy damage gap will begin to close. Then we can move on to the discussion of matchmaking and gear scores lol.
>>>>>>My main point for even posting this was to get the double proccing Shadow of Demise glitch fixed. <<<<<<<
Aeneas of Twitch.tv
Aeneas/Einherjar/No Skill
(Iron Lotus)
Dragon Born Rouge GS 17.6k in Profound
Not to be confused with Rogue, I truly am the red makeup women put on their cheeks.
I'll start this by saying i now have accumulated countless hours of rogue pvp,...*snip*
Tanks are deadly when played well.
The big problem is idiots and scrubs can roll a rogue and be effective whilst the other classes have to put actual effort into their gameplay and then when a reasonably skilled rogue comes along he is almost godlike even though he's just using average tactics.
I played rogues on release back on the pc and they were overpowered back then and I had to put little to no effort in playing one.
Now they are just plain stupid. The devs really didn't pay attention to the players.
There are serious downsides to choosing a rogue though, your prices will skyrocket in end game and you'll have to compete with gear almost every singe game.
Just to clarify, as a warlock Rogues are no more than a nuisance since i know their weaknesses and how to counter their burst.
CW's and exploit using GF's however...
The Best PVP Guild on Dragon/Neverwinter: YoloOldSkoolSwagLoveNeverGingersLuvDupStep even if it's just one of us, you might as well just afk.
I'm fairly new to the game but even I know that the PvP in this game is not your typical TDM or FFA, it's DOMINATION.
Kills do not matter so much individually because it's balanced as a TEAM fight.
If a certain TR is rolling over your teammates, simply take 1 DPS and a CW to take care of him, easily. (this will hold true for equally geared, equally skilled, blah blah blah stipulations but that's not the point, the point is it's a TEAM mode and if you can't handle 1 player on the other team, take 2 to go kill him.)
Kills matter when your healer gets slaughtered by a rogue in stealth in 2 seconds.
When an enemy hits you for 90% of people on your team in the first hit in the first encounter...well it's pretty much game over. Because by the time you respawn after that, their Cooldowns gone and they do the exact same thing.
How can you call that fun? The end result will be people will stop playing it's just that simple.
The Best PVP Guild on Dragon/Neverwinter: YoloOldSkoolSwagLoveNeverGingersLuvDupStep even if it's just one of us, you might as well just afk.
If a TR was the only class I played then I would agree with you on me being biased, however I have countless videos on my youtube channel when I was playing my TR, CW, GWF, DC and HR, and stayed competitive at the highest end with all of them. My HR more so at the end before I quit. Feel free to watch some of my earlier days of PvP, keep in mind all the builds I was using are now outdated https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Kris+Spaulding
I definitely do my best when talking about a particular subject to not come off as "know it all", because clearly I do not, and am the first to admit it. But I do have many many hours, over the course of 2 years on 5 characters playing in PvP. I have seen the changes from release, to what they are now, and adjusted my characters to continue staying competitive to the best of my ability.
By even speaking in this topic, is against my better judgment because these threads generally end up in a flame fest. So with the knowledge that I do have, I want to try and best explain to new players especially, and old who may not know, or understand, there are reasons for 99.9% of what is happening to them in PvP. And the answer has never been "the class is OP". There have definitely in the past been the FOTM class's because of particular tweaks to abilities, but smart players have always found ways to change their perspective class to adjust. The answer however is not always simple, as there are many factors. First and foremost, Skill plays a landsliding majority of what happens in PvP in this game, next comes a proper build with decent gear.
I will always say this. That after you have done your homework, your class is built suitable for PvP, you have the right gear and everything is as it should be. You will STILL, get your butt handed to you in PvP from time to time. There is always someone better. Cant change that, and if you are the guy that gets so frustrated when you die in PvP that you break your own stuff or scream like a crazy person.....then PvP is definitely not for you.
I will agree Krad that a brand new person who picks a TR as his first class, with moderate skill is going to do decent in PvP, and more than likely not as good with another class. However, a person with experience in this game that has played on PC, will without a doubt do good with any class in PvP.
But a guy that consistently gets 20+ kills, pushing into that 30+ kill range with minimal deaths...is someone with a high amount of skill. You don't just make a TR, and get 30 kills.
I play nothing but PvP, at all hours of a 24 hour period. With well over a hundred matchs and well over 1000+ kills...I have met 2 TR's that were getting high numbers, and I guarantee they were not first time players.
+1 to you sir. As someone who played since mod 4 on PC, I have learned my fair share of info and tactics. I started Xbox for a fresh start with a new toon. TR is a lot of fun, but what sets me off is the fact I know how to play PvP from PC. When you hit 60, I'd love to smash face with you.
TR can be very effective solo in a way that other classes have trouble doing. They can back cap effectively, they can take out solo targets effectively, they have good escape skills. Really the only great defense against them is to run in a pack. However what if the Rogue's team also runs in a pack? This puts a lot of pressure on a random PUG.
Not only that but the Rogue's combat style is that emotionally crippling style where they can stun lock someone and burst them down making them feel pretty powerless.
Additionally in Pre-Level 60 pvp you have a lot of people who are just trying pvp and they find out they can't compete as they are built and they get smoked. There really isn't a good fix for this until the player base hits level cap and a more static gear environment. I am really curious to see how this works at lvl 60 with higher end gear? Will they be just as dominant?
+1 to you sir. As someone who played since mod 4 on PC, I have learned my fair share of info and tactics. I started Xbox for a fresh start with a new toon. TR is a lot of fun, but what sets me off is the fact I know how to play PvP from PC. When you hit 60, I'd love to smash face with you.
Awesome man, thanks for the positive feedback.
Just got my TR to 60 last night.
During my lvling up I had purchased PvP pots, and a few pieces of gear so I only had enough Glory to buy my main and offhand weapons.
Pretty much since lvl 10 of PvP, I was dominating every single match I was in. I have a lot of time invested in playing a TR so I knew right away what build I was going for and how to gear my character. Which in turn, put me way ahead of the competition on the extreme lvl. I hit my Bloodthirsty 1 Mark at lvl38(1,000 kills), by now I would assume I am well past 3,000.
Then I hit 60. Pretty much everything I have said, in regards to TR's not being OP and that it had everything to do with lack of knowledge on the game as a whole and having properly spec'd and geared characters has been proven again, to myself.
I did 5 matches last night and it was pretty much a disaster. For one, my character is obviously undergeared. With a GS of just under 8k, all PvP earned blues(which are good), and 2 Purple PvP weapons. My team was completely horrible, and that's fine, but obviously frustrating. You all know the team. The 4 players who decide to chase one single person around the map like morons while not owning one single Node, me being the one guy trying my best to fight 4 vs 1 and cap nodes. I was getting some kills but it was pretty gross, specially since their team had 2 TR's and a GF, was getting bounced all over and stunned and dead.
I guess what I'm getting at is like I have said before, everything changes when you are 60. Even though "I believe" my skill lvl was considerably higher than the opposing 4 players I was fighting, I was still getting owned. Gear was the majority factor. I know their gear wasn't that high either, but at lvl 60, an 8k gear score vs even a 10k gs is a considerable amount, especially when you are outnumbered. 1 vs 1, even 2 vs 1 I was coming out on top, and that was because the skill factor.
Now its the grind for Glory to get awesome gear.
I met 2 clerics last night also that were pretty much impossible to kill. These guys had excellent builds and ridiculous skill. I had one of them down to literally 1/8th of a bubble, and couldn't finish him off. I LOVE fighting people like this, they make me think and its exciting. I have had matches where I was 38-2 and won by a landslide, and matches where I was 15-6 and the match ended within 20 points of each other. Those are the matches I like. I love playing against people that I feel are better than me, because like in all aspects of life, if you are always the best..you will never get any better. Skill breeds skill between competitive players, and that's why I love PvP.
My post may be all over the place sorry for that, I'm at work =P
Just ran into the most unstoppable thing I've seen in pvpv yet. A cleric and a rogue running together. They obviously knew eachother and the cleric was pretty much only focusing on healing this rogue. My whole team couldn't believe how unstoppable this rogue became by having a cleric running along side the whole game. If you focused on killing the cleric, the rogue would kill you in a matter of seconds. If you focused on killing the rogue, the cleric would heal him and which made the rogue into a tank/assassin killing machine. Literally watched him tank 3 vs 1 and still take out 2 before using stealth and retreating . I have not seen another class do that. I was able to catch him a few times without the cleric which made it much easier to handle but even then when I did kill him, I was at 10% health every time. Of course their team was dominating ours so I just tried to get as many points as possible before losing. I ended up going 16-5 in 2nd place, all 5 deaths came from the rogue. The rogue came in first, of course, going 24-4. He came in first in kills and points. I
It is very clear, no matter how you look at it, rogues have an advantage in pvp compared to every other class. And please don't tell me Im "doing it wrong" or that I don't know how to play because I'm constantly at the top of the leaderboard in every pvp match I play. And you're more than welcome to run some pvp matches with me if you'd like.
And what is this talk about things changing at lvl 60 pvp?? I've been pvping everyday since lvl 10 and rogues have remained the dominating class in every single bracket of pvp. Are we playing the same game? I understand that Rogues obviously aren't going to agree with their class being at an advantage but let's not kid ourselves. I'm not saying they need to be nerfed but there definitely need to be some changes. As of right now, TR's dominate pvp. And I highly doubt every rogue just so happens to be a pro.
Just ran into the most unstoppable thing I've seen in pvpv yet. A cleric and a rogue running together. They obviously knew eachother and the cleric was pretty much only focusing on healing this rogue. My whole team couldn't believe how unstoppable this rogue became by having a cleric running along side the whole game. If you focused on killing the cleric, the rogue would kill you in a matter of seconds. If you focused on killing the rogue, the cleric would heal him and which made the rogue into a tank/assassin killing machine. Literally watched him tank 3 vs 1 and still take out 2 before using stealth and retreating . I have not seen another class do that. I was able to catch him a few times without the cleric which made it much easier to handle but even then when I did kill him, I was at 10% health every time. Of course their team was dominating ours so I just tried to get as many points as possible before losing. I ended up going 16-5 in 2nd place, all 5 deaths came from the rogue. The rogue came in first, of course, going 24-4. He came in first in kills and points. I
It is very clear, no matter how you look at it, rogues have an advantage in pvp compared to every other class. And please don't tell me Im "doing it wrong" or that I don't know how to play because I'm constantly at the top of the leaderboard in every pvp match I play. And you're more than welcome to run some pvp matches with me if you'd like.
There is the possibility he played from PC, had better gear, or just got the upper hand. As with any class, you give them a pocket healer and they are a god. TR's are strong when played right, but a good trapper HR can drop me and so can a good CW.
Just ran into the most unstoppable thing I've seen in pvpv yet. A cleric and a rogue running together. They obviously knew eachother and the cleric was pretty much only focusing on healing this rogue. My whole team couldn't believe how unstoppable this rogue became by having a cleric running along side the whole game. If you focused on killing the cleric, the rogue would kill you in a matter of seconds. If you focused on killing the rogue, the cleric would heal him and which made the rogue into a tank/assassin killing machine. Literally watched him tank 3 vs 1 and still take out 2 before using stealth and retreating . I have not seen another class do that. I was able to catch him a few times without the cleric which made it much easier to handle but even then when I did kill him, I was at 10% health every time. Of course their team was dominating ours so I just tried to get as many points as possible before losing. I ended up going 16-5 in 2nd place, all 5 deaths came from the rogue. The rogue came in first, of course, going 24-4. He came in first in kills and points. I
It is very clear, no matter how you look at it, rogues have an advantage in pvp compared to every other class. And please don't tell me Im "doing it wrong" or that I don't know how to play because I'm constantly at the top of the leaderboard in every pvp match I play. And you're more than welcome to run some pvp matches with me if you'd like.
In a situation like that Krad its not necessarily about killing. As a CW, if I were you, I would be pushing them off point and contesting the node, rather then looking for the kill. Repel, Shield, Avalance and Steal Time is what I would run in that situation. I've had many many matches where stalemates like this occurred, and if you had a decent team that spoke to each other, you could manipulate the battlefield and backcap/forecap and contest the mid, by having different class's stay at mid.
Obviously though if you had a bad team that likes to fight off the nodes and doesn't backcap and switch players from dif nodes, then yah..its a helluva tough match.
Tactics play a giant role in Domination. Not saying you, but the majority of people I've seen so far in Xbox PvP, are more concerned with getting kills. They don't realize the point of the match is to gain points by controlling the Nodes
There is the possibility he played from PC, had better gear, or just got the upper hand. As with any class, you give them a pocket healer and they are a god. TR's are strong when played right, but a good trapper HR can drop me and so can a good CW.
Well sure that's absolutely a possibility. It's also possible that Rouges just may in fact be op.
In a situation like that Krad its not necessarily about killing. As a CW, if I were you, I would be pushing them off point and contesting the node, rather then looking for the kill. Repel, Shield, Avalance and Steal Time is what I would run in that situation. I've had many many matches where stalemates like this occurred, and if you had a decent team that spoke to each other, you could manipulate the battlefield and backcap/forecap and contest the mid, by having different class's stay at mid.
Obviously though if you had a bad team that likes to fight off the nodes and doesn't backcap and switch players from dif nodes, then yah..its a helluva tough match.
Tactics play a giant role in Domination. Not saying you, but the majority of people I've seen so far in Xbox PvP, are more concerned with getting kills. They don't realize the point of the match is to gain points by controlling the Nodes
Lol I was second in points and kills. Trust me I know how to play my role. And the skill set up you just mentioned is horrible, no offense. No high lvl CW would run that set up for pvp. I don't go chasing people for kills, I know very well what the objective is. And my whole team had mics that game.
Steal time in pvp? That's a horrible skill to use lol. You'd be dead before you even finish casting.
But you are right about most players thinking it's about kills. That pisses me off.
Lol I was second in points and kills. Trust me I know how to play my role. And the skill set up you just mentioned is horrible, no offense. No high lvl CW would run that set up for pvp. I don't go chasing people for kills, I know very well what the objective is. And my whole team had mics that game.
Steal time in pvp? That's a horrible skill to use lol. You'd be dead before you even finish casting.
But you are right about most players thinking it's about kills. That pisses me off.
Eh, apples to oranges my friend.
I used many different combos depending on the situation with my CW. Steal Time can be very effective if used right.
A highly contested node with Avalance/Mastery with steal time and Shield is a seriously nasty combo. It worked well for me in certain fights
I used many different combos depending on the situation with my CW. Steal Time can be very effective if used right.
A highly contested node with Avalance/Mastery with steal time and Shield is a seriously nasty combo. It worked well for me in certain fights
Ill def try it before I knock it. Not a fan of steal time in pvp though. Leaves me too vulnerable. I'll run some test with it when I can. I'm pretty content with my set up though as it's been working very well for my build.
A trickster rogue isn't a Rogue, or an Assassin that an MMORPG player is used to seeing i.e;EQ1, WWC, Aion, etc etc. The mechanics are significantly different. You cant compare the TR, to other mmo's Thief type class's, they are very different.
OP stealth. OP stunlocks. OP damage. A TR is pretty much identical to any rogue in any other MMORPG since WoW. At least PvP wise.
I don't remember rogues being OP in EQ, but I remember the first time I fought one in WoW, it was the first time I literally felt like PvP was unfair and I'd been cheated. And it seems that any new MMORPG I play since then, rogues or rogue-like classes are way OP in PvP.
I pretty much come to expect it, which is why I wasn't surprised that TRs are so OP and require no skill to play in this game. It always seems to be the GoTo choice for anyone who wants to PvP on easy-mode.
It's obvious from 99 percent of the replies that most people are very noobtacular in MMO PVP. Playing a Rogue in a bg in WoW was nothing like playing a rogue in 2500 rated 2v2's.
There is an easy entrance to the class, but an extremely high skill gap in most MMOs. (doesn't sound like that's the case in NWN, but I read conflicting stuff about the class on PC) Getting owned 1v1 because you don't breath PVP over dungeon running isn't a good way to measure a class.
Aeneas/Einherjar/No Skill
(Iron Lotus)
Dragon Born Rouge GS 17.6k in Profound
Not to be confused with Rogue, I truly am the red makeup women put on their cheeks.
Rogues are very strong before you get your pvp gear, if u never get your pvp gear they will continue to eat you alive. Plus the main point for facing a rogue is dodging the lashing blade opener, do that and its a much easier time killing them. Atm rogues are to front loaded and the capstone in exicutioner is bugged im pretty sure bc they just fixed the pc version with mod 6 so thats also helping them. Do rogues need a bit of a tone down? yes. Are they very strong? well seeing as the first 5 pages of leaderboards on the pc is like 90% rogues i would say yes. Is *****ing and moaning going to do anything about it? well ask the pc players who have had rogues being broke since like mod 3 or 4, no it wont. What should you do? Adapt, get pvp gear and learn to face rogues.
I found when playing a new game the best way to figure out how to beat a class is to play a class. Roll a rogue and give it a shot. You will quickly see their strengths and weaknesses.
Did that in WoW back in the day. As a lock I hated being stun-locked by rogues. So I rolled a rogue to see if they really were OP. After doing alot of world PvP I found that I could easily stunlock and kill TWO warlocks at once without even trying.
So you're trying to prove that TRs aren't OP by saying that in order to beat them, just send TWO people? LOL!!
Lol. That's pretty much the only way to take care of rogues. Ganking them when they aren't steam rolling people in and out of stealth. And I thought tanks were supposed to have the most survivability.
You can't do that force choke thing? I play HR trapper so they can't run from me lol.
Yes, that's my bread and butter. When it works. Me being a CW I tend to fair a lot better against rogues. It's still annoying when my team gets steamrolled by a couple rogues running around.
And even then I still have a much harder time with rogues than I do with any other class.
Yea that's rough, the only issue I have lately is the slim chance it's a full team with TRs and a DC. Other than that some PvP gear makes everything easy.
Comments
Now when i fight a TEAM, teammates helping each other paying attention your not going to run around and do as you please its actually exposes rogues actual weakness. Sure you can still kill a straggler but staying alive is not as easy with not so many Rambo's. Next another glaring thing is alot of people don't play there class right then get mad and want to cry to the forum GODS when they get face rolled.
It's so many rogues that cant even play worth their salt, ive been hit to 10% hp and since i survived they are like duh? what to do he survived? Or they miss the big hit and are lost. I stay top 3 every match and its not because i have 1000 kills a fight its because i understand what where are actually trying to do. Be a team win the nodes.
Played correctly any class can dominate pvp save tanks they are more of an annoyance than a threat, they need some type of move maybe aoe that debilitates others damage by like 80% or something. It shouldn't always be about damage when buffing a class.
But in closing its some really bad players out there, get better raise the competition levels and then the devs can judge the classes, but anything now would just be a jerk reaction to the crying. I have had 1000 to 42 matches i dvr the those for the record. It's no reason to crush the opposition like that. But what happens they start quitting when they feel they will lose or are just bad. And then cry on the forums. I used to play city of heroes back in the day, they cried had the pvp nerfed til it was unplayable now the game is dead and gone lol.
Seeing how I pretty much through a build and set of skills together based on their descriptions and was still able to dominate makes it pretty clear to me that Rogues do indeed have quite the advantage in pvp. My very first game I went 23-2 and nearly doubled the points of the person in second place. Now I don't have games like that every single time but I went undefeated in quite a few matches while still maintaining the top spot. I've played a ton of matches with this rouge and can count on one hand how many times I didn't come in first.
Now I am pretty well versed in pvp even with my CE so I'm sure that helps, but it's undeniable that rogues have the advantage in pvp compared to other classes. Whether they are op or not is debatable depending on who you ask.
I also heard quite a few people say that rogues are one of the more difficult classes to play, that is not true IMO. I've had no issues with finding a decent build that works in pvp, and I pretty much just winged it. I did have a bit more trouble with CW and HR's than other classes but killing Tanks and GWf were no trouble at all. Even warlocks. Most of my time was pretty much spent stun locking someone and killing them before they could even think.
Once again I didn't level past lvl 30 so this was just a test run to see what early pvp was like as a rogue but I can only imagine what it would be like at lvl 60 with the same amount of time and research invested in this class as I did with my CW.
I was interested in the rogue class prior to playing this game but after leveling to 30 and running a ton of pvp, I have no interest in reaching end game with this character, will probably end up making an HR instead at this point.
Not trying to use this to further the debate that Rogues are op, I just simply did what was constantly suggested and played as a Rogue to see what it's like. And if endgame is anything like lvl 30, what I've been saying was pretty much confirmed.
Back to my CW I go
An equally geared spec'd right CW will out dps a rogue any day of the week on a single target, hands down.
TR's have high "burst" damage. They have excellent sustained dmg, but no where near a CW sustained. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.
As well, a geared and spec'd properly GF will have as high, if not higher burst dmg then a TR in PvP.
YouTube is a wonderful place, there are thousands of videos proving that.
Search "GF Montage", "CW Montage", etc etc.
Trickster Rogues in NW are very powerful.......in the hands of the right person, and even worse against a poorly geared spec'd inexperienced Player.
The problem in this game is an overwhelming majority of lack of knowledge on class's. In general, when a TR kills anyone, and quickly. Instead of trying to understand the how and the why, and building their OWN character to be competitive in PvP. They come to the forums and cry a TR got 20 kills in a PvP match and complain how unfair it is.
Currently I am lvl 58 on my TR. Not once...in well over a hundred matches, ...have I been "one shot" killed, or even had 75% of my damage taken in one hit...not by a TR, or a CW, or any other class. Is it because I am awesome and somehow am more special and know some special secret that the rest of you somehow do not know? The answer to that is no. The explanation is because I am gearing my character properly, suited for PvP.
Go into PvP with 0 Tenacity, poor health pool and lacking any sort of defenses, then yes...you will, and deserve.....to get one shot by a TR. Wait till your 60, every single class will be one shotting, except a DC, and even then..a pvp dps spec'd DC will destroy you as well in seconds.
There are hundreds of pages..well over 2 years of knowledge in this game sitting on the forums just waiting to be read. I strongly encourage you, and anyone else that is having problems in PvP and PvE, do stop wasting your time, and instead use it wisely by reading some of this amazing information a fingertip touch away.
Let me put this into perspective. Mind you, I do not know 100% the exacts of exactly how the math is used in this game to calculate things like defense, deflect, Tenacity..but I have a good understanding. I'm going to do some math for you and while It may not be exactly how its done, you will get the idea and it will be very close. For those that do know the math the proper way, feel free to correct me.
We are going to use Lashing Blade as a basis, as that is a TR's hardest hitting ability, and going off memory(not 100% exact)of what my personal defensive stats currently are, at lvl 58.
My stats off Memory are;
Defense 22%
Deflect 33%
Tenacity 22%
Lets say a TR hits me with Lashing blade, and he is not buffed.
His initial damage before anything is calculated is 15,000. Lets start doing the math, remember..I know for sure how I am doing it is not in the proper order, or 100% factual, but it is very close.
15,000 damage Minus 22% Tenacity = 11,700
11,700 damage Minus 22% Defense = 9,126
Now the Deflect will not mitigate an entire % worth of damage, but a portion of each hit, I'm not sure how to show that, but in my experience. That 9,126 hit would go down somewhere to 7.5-8k
My total health at lvl 58 is 27,000.
27,000 Health Minus 8,000 = 19,000 - That is 30% of my total health Pool.
Keep in mind again, Armor Penetration from the attacker plays a large role, and obviously debuffs, as well as the priority of how the math is done. But in a nutshell, its close.
Bottom line. If you gear your toon properly for PvP, the chances of getting completely one shot are very, very rare. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, because even at end game PvP it does, but it is extremely rare if you are building for PvP.
I know there are guys out there that know how the math works exactly, I would love to be taught so feel free to further explain.
Cheers!
Alysin Chains - TR 58
A lot of what you're saying is true but you are clearly biased, which is not unexpected.
One thing I can takeaway after playing a rogue is that I didn't put even half the effort to build this Rogue as I did with my CW and I am already getting pretty ridiculous numbers in terms of points and kills. Not only is it easier to kill someone without even taking damage, but capping the towers have become insanely easier due to being able to stealth and move so quick.
If a TR was the only class I played then I would agree with you on me being biased, however I have countless videos on my youtube channel when I was playing my TR, CW, GWF, DC and HR, and stayed competitive at the highest end with all of them. My HR more so at the end before I quit. Feel free to watch some of my earlier days of PvP, keep in mind all the builds I was using are now outdated https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Kris+Spaulding
I definitely do my best when talking about a particular subject to not come off as "know it all", because clearly I do not, and am the first to admit it. But I do have many many hours, over the course of 2 years on 5 characters playing in PvP. I have seen the changes from release, to what they are now, and adjusted my characters to continue staying competitive to the best of my ability.
By even speaking in this topic, is against my better judgment because these threads generally end up in a flame fest. So with the knowledge that I do have, I want to try and best explain to new players especially, and old who may not know, or understand, there are reasons for 99.9% of what is happening to them in PvP. And the answer has never been "the class is OP". There have definitely in the past been the FOTM class's because of particular tweaks to abilities, but smart players have always found ways to change their perspective class to adjust. The answer however is not always simple, as there are many factors. First and foremost, Skill plays a landsliding majority of what happens in PvP in this game, next comes a proper build with decent gear.
I will always say this. That after you have done your homework, your class is built suitable for PvP, you have the right gear and everything is as it should be. You will STILL, get your butt handed to you in PvP from time to time. There is always someone better. Cant change that, and if you are the guy that gets so frustrated when you die in PvP that you break your own stuff or scream like a crazy person.....then PvP is definitely not for you.
I will agree Krad that a brand new person who picks a TR as his first class, with moderate skill is going to do decent in PvP, and more than likely not as good with another class. However, a person with experience in this game that has played on PC, will without a doubt do good with any class in PvP.
But a guy that consistently gets 20+ kills, pushing into that 30+ kill range with minimal deaths...is someone with a high amount of skill. You don't just make a TR, and get 30 kills.
I play nothing but PvP, at all hours of a 24 hour period. With well over a hundred matchs and well over 1000+ kills...I have met 2 TR's that were getting high numbers, and I guarantee they were not first time players.
I can imagine once everyone has tenacity and a larger HP pool, this crazy damage gap will begin to close. Then we can move on to the discussion of matchmaking and gear scores lol.
>>>>>>My main point for even posting this was to get the double proccing Shadow of Demise glitch fixed. <<<<<<<
Aeneas of Twitch.tv
(Iron Lotus)
Dragon Born Rouge GS 17.6k in Profound
Not to be confused with Rogue, I truly am the red makeup women put on their cheeks.
Tanks are deadly when played well.
The big problem is idiots and scrubs can roll a rogue and be effective whilst the other classes have to put actual effort into their gameplay and then when a reasonably skilled rogue comes along he is almost godlike even though he's just using average tactics.
I played rogues on release back on the pc and they were overpowered back then and I had to put little to no effort in playing one.
Now they are just plain stupid. The devs really didn't pay attention to the players.
There are serious downsides to choosing a rogue though, your prices will skyrocket in end game and you'll have to compete with gear almost every singe game.
Just to clarify, as a warlock Rogues are no more than a nuisance since i know their weaknesses and how to counter their burst.
CW's and exploit using GF's however...
Kills matter when your healer gets slaughtered by a rogue in stealth in 2 seconds.
When an enemy hits you for 90% of people on your team in the first hit in the first encounter...well it's pretty much game over. Because by the time you respawn after that, their Cooldowns gone and they do the exact same thing.
How can you call that fun? The end result will be people will stop playing it's just that simple.
+1 to you sir. As someone who played since mod 4 on PC, I have learned my fair share of info and tactics. I started Xbox for a fresh start with a new toon. TR is a lot of fun, but what sets me off is the fact I know how to play PvP from PC. When you hit 60, I'd love to smash face with you.
Not only that but the Rogue's combat style is that emotionally crippling style where they can stun lock someone and burst them down making them feel pretty powerless.
Additionally in Pre-Level 60 pvp you have a lot of people who are just trying pvp and they find out they can't compete as they are built and they get smoked. There really isn't a good fix for this until the player base hits level cap and a more static gear environment. I am really curious to see how this works at lvl 60 with higher end gear? Will they be just as dominant?
Awesome man, thanks for the positive feedback.
Just got my TR to 60 last night.
During my lvling up I had purchased PvP pots, and a few pieces of gear so I only had enough Glory to buy my main and offhand weapons.
Pretty much since lvl 10 of PvP, I was dominating every single match I was in. I have a lot of time invested in playing a TR so I knew right away what build I was going for and how to gear my character. Which in turn, put me way ahead of the competition on the extreme lvl. I hit my Bloodthirsty 1 Mark at lvl38(1,000 kills), by now I would assume I am well past 3,000.
Then I hit 60. Pretty much everything I have said, in regards to TR's not being OP and that it had everything to do with lack of knowledge on the game as a whole and having properly spec'd and geared characters has been proven again, to myself.
I did 5 matches last night and it was pretty much a disaster. For one, my character is obviously undergeared. With a GS of just under 8k, all PvP earned blues(which are good), and 2 Purple PvP weapons. My team was completely horrible, and that's fine, but obviously frustrating. You all know the team. The 4 players who decide to chase one single person around the map like morons while not owning one single Node, me being the one guy trying my best to fight 4 vs 1 and cap nodes. I was getting some kills but it was pretty gross, specially since their team had 2 TR's and a GF, was getting bounced all over and stunned and dead.
I guess what I'm getting at is like I have said before, everything changes when you are 60. Even though "I believe" my skill lvl was considerably higher than the opposing 4 players I was fighting, I was still getting owned. Gear was the majority factor. I know their gear wasn't that high either, but at lvl 60, an 8k gear score vs even a 10k gs is a considerable amount, especially when you are outnumbered. 1 vs 1, even 2 vs 1 I was coming out on top, and that was because the skill factor.
Now its the grind for Glory to get awesome gear.
I met 2 clerics last night also that were pretty much impossible to kill. These guys had excellent builds and ridiculous skill. I had one of them down to literally 1/8th of a bubble, and couldn't finish him off. I LOVE fighting people like this, they make me think and its exciting. I have had matches where I was 38-2 and won by a landslide, and matches where I was 15-6 and the match ended within 20 points of each other. Those are the matches I like. I love playing against people that I feel are better than me, because like in all aspects of life, if you are always the best..you will never get any better. Skill breeds skill between competitive players, and that's why I love PvP.
My post may be all over the place sorry for that, I'm at work =P
Hope to see you all in game!
Alysin Chains
TR - 60
I couldn't have said it better myself. PvP is dynamic where as PvE is static and boring. All fights are just tank & spank. Well, boss of VT isn't.
It is very clear, no matter how you look at it, rogues have an advantage in pvp compared to every other class. And please don't tell me Im "doing it wrong" or that I don't know how to play because I'm constantly at the top of the leaderboard in every pvp match I play. And you're more than welcome to run some pvp matches with me if you'd like.
And what is this talk about things changing at lvl 60 pvp?? I've been pvping everyday since lvl 10 and rogues have remained the dominating class in every single bracket of pvp. Are we playing the same game? I understand that Rogues obviously aren't going to agree with their class being at an advantage but let's not kid ourselves. I'm not saying they need to be nerfed but there definitely need to be some changes. As of right now, TR's dominate pvp. And I highly doubt every rogue just so happens to be a pro.
There is the possibility he played from PC, had better gear, or just got the upper hand. As with any class, you give them a pocket healer and they are a god. TR's are strong when played right, but a good trapper HR can drop me and so can a good CW.
In a situation like that Krad its not necessarily about killing. As a CW, if I were you, I would be pushing them off point and contesting the node, rather then looking for the kill. Repel, Shield, Avalance and Steal Time is what I would run in that situation. I've had many many matches where stalemates like this occurred, and if you had a decent team that spoke to each other, you could manipulate the battlefield and backcap/forecap and contest the mid, by having different class's stay at mid.
Obviously though if you had a bad team that likes to fight off the nodes and doesn't backcap and switch players from dif nodes, then yah..its a helluva tough match.
Tactics play a giant role in Domination. Not saying you, but the majority of people I've seen so far in Xbox PvP, are more concerned with getting kills. They don't realize the point of the match is to gain points by controlling the Nodes
Well sure that's absolutely a possibility. It's also possible that Rouges just may in fact be op.
Lol I was second in points and kills. Trust me I know how to play my role. And the skill set up you just mentioned is horrible, no offense. No high lvl CW would run that set up for pvp. I don't go chasing people for kills, I know very well what the objective is. And my whole team had mics that game.
Steal time in pvp? That's a horrible skill to use lol. You'd be dead before you even finish casting.
But you are right about most players thinking it's about kills. That pisses me off.
Eh, apples to oranges my friend.
I used many different combos depending on the situation with my CW. Steal Time can be very effective if used right.
A highly contested node with Avalance/Mastery with steal time and Shield is a seriously nasty combo. It worked well for me in certain fights
Ill def try it before I knock it. Not a fan of steal time in pvp though. Leaves me too vulnerable. I'll run some test with it when I can. I'm pretty content with my set up though as it's been working very well for my build.
OP stealth. OP stunlocks. OP damage. A TR is pretty much identical to any rogue in any other MMORPG since WoW. At least PvP wise.
I don't remember rogues being OP in EQ, but I remember the first time I fought one in WoW, it was the first time I literally felt like PvP was unfair and I'd been cheated. And it seems that any new MMORPG I play since then, rogues or rogue-like classes are way OP in PvP.
I pretty much come to expect it, which is why I wasn't surprised that TRs are so OP and require no skill to play in this game. It always seems to be the GoTo choice for anyone who wants to PvP on easy-mode.
There is an easy entrance to the class, but an extremely high skill gap in most MMOs. (doesn't sound like that's the case in NWN, but I read conflicting stuff about the class on PC) Getting owned 1v1 because you don't breath PVP over dungeon running isn't a good way to measure a class.
(Iron Lotus)
Dragon Born Rouge GS 17.6k in Profound
Not to be confused with Rogue, I truly am the red makeup women put on their cheeks.
Aldren Boweing - 60 HR
Stats prove otherwise.
So you're trying to prove that TRs aren't OP by saying that in order to beat them, just send TWO people? LOL!!
Did that in WoW back in the day. As a lock I hated being stun-locked by rogues. So I rolled a rogue to see if they really were OP. After doing alot of world PvP I found that I could easily stunlock and kill TWO warlocks at once without even trying.
It merely reinforced what I already knew.
(Iron Lotus)
Dragon Born Rouge GS 17.6k in Profound
Not to be confused with Rogue, I truly am the red makeup women put on their cheeks.
Lol. That's pretty much the only way to take care of rogues. Ganking them when they aren't steam rolling people in and out of stealth. And I thought tanks were supposed to have the most survivability.
Yes, that's my bread and butter. When it works. Me being a CW I tend to fair a lot better against rogues. It's still annoying when my team gets steamrolled by a couple rogues running around.
And even then I still have a much harder time with rogues than I do with any other class.