A lot of this is true against a rogue that doesn't really know what's going on, but certainly not the case against one who does.
Not much you can do about it, constricting, hindering, switch, disruptive shot (daze), fox shift, hindering strike, steel breeze = dead in 90% of my openings on rogues/wizards/hunters/warlocks, basically anything squishie dies to that rotation instantly and when i walk up with forest ghost so i have stealth it is just completely unfair. Rogues are all about getting the drop on you, if they dont get that huge lashing blade hit their damage isnt near as impressive.
I don't know about rogues in PvP because I have no interest at all in PvP, but I can say with certainty TRs don't blow in PvE. I've yet to run a skirmish or dungeon where my TR didn't double (or more) the damage of the toon in 2nd place. In a couple cases I've done more damage than the rest of the group combined. I usually have most kills as well. My only deaths (not many) so far are from getting ambushed while trying to clear out loot notifications from some guy running around picking up treasure during a fight.
If you think TRs aren't any good in PvE, my guess is you're talking about a TR spec'd for PvP trying to run in PvE. If so, I agree that wouldn't be as effective, nor would a PvE spec do well in PvP. My PvE TR, however, is a beast in story, dungeon, and skirmish play. Regardless, if Cryptic changes the TR, I hope it's only in PvP. I hate it when developers ruin an awesome PvE experience when trying to fix PvP. I'd rather they cut PvP altogether than break PvE. PvP doesn't make any sense in this kind of game anyway.
Are you max level? because though rogues are second to me (i guess im saying they blow compared to my damage) but usually half my damage after the instance is over, they do nowhere near my aoe and since there are no single target fights in this game single target damage is irreverent. For example i had a cw in my group get a 200k + crit with ice knife when my max damage is like 30k with a daily but because of my aoe damage i can out damage him by 10mil or more.
There's no skill and it's not impressive being a TR In this game.
I always love seeing comments like these.
For a guy who started this game as long ago as you e11z, I'm surprised you actually made the comment.
You and I both know the FOTM continually changes in this game. Every class in this game has once been considered OP(even DCs). Seems to always wind up with the TR however, which IMO is always generally the same type of problem.
The problem I have with it all is this.
So last night I had a 33-1-?? match in the 50-59 bracket, and was stuck in a group with an HR. He was doing nothing but complaining how overpowered the TR was and he thought it was ridiculous the score that I had. Firstly, the group we were fighting was obviously new to the game, as every single one was standing for my Duelist hits(not a good idea). Then I got to asking him some questions. His biggest problem, is the fact that he thinks TR's go into stealth too fast/too frequent/too long, and he cant see them to attack. He made it a point of telling me how he's gamed for years and blah blah. This again, is a big problem with new gamers coming into NW. A trickster rogue isn't a Rogue, or an Assassin that an MMORPG player is used to seeing i.e;EQ1, WWC, Aion, etc etc. The mechanics are significantly different. You cant compare the TR, to other mmo's Thief type class's, they are very different.
It seems to me it just always goes back to lack of knowledge on the game as a whole. I started asking him what his stat priorities and skills were, gear score, Tenacity ## and so on. In the 50-59 bracket he had a GS of less than 5k, 0 Tenacity, and no points spent in Constitution. I asked him if he knew NOT to waste his abilities when a TR goes into Impossible to Catch, he had no idea what that was, and while there is nothing wrong with that, its unfair to call a class OP and without skill, when you can't yourself even recognize a very important ability such as ITC.
I think it is very unfair to call any class OP in all honesty, especially when the person has done little to no research on other class's. There is always a way around mechanics, there have been since day 1 in this game. With tweaks and changes people figure out new ways to be awesome, and new ways to combat other class's.
I could write a novel on this subject but its pointless.
It is very hard to judge any class in this game pre-60 because of lack of knowledge of the person controlling the character, as well as its very common to have a large gap in Gear Score and stat priorities.
I strongly encourage players, new players especially, to do some research on all of the class's. Watch some YouTube videos, read the changes that have been done in the last few months. Understand the importance of correct stat priorities when wanting to compete in PvP, understand that a good player will change his/her encounters in PvP, depending on who/what/where they are fighting. Also understand that it is very possible that you, a new player, are playing against Veteran players who have over 2 years of knowledge on you, and more than likely know the class you are playing better than you do.
Ultimately....PvP is frustrating, and it is certainly not for everyone.
Are you max level? because though rogues are second to me (i guess im saying they blow compared to my damage) but usually half my damage after the instance is over, they do nowhere near my aoe and since there are no single target fights in this game single target damage is irreverent. For example i had a cw in my group get a 200k + crit with ice knife when my max damage is like 30k with a daily but because of my aoe damage i can out damage him by 10mil or more.
No, I'm only level 50. The difference between my damage and 2nd place is shrinking. I now only come out on top by a few hundred thousand when I used to be topping 2nd place by a 2+ mil damage difference. I guess I'll see what happens when I get to the end game. You might have said earlier, but what class are you?
you guys are complaining about something really not much worth complaining, there are not the same pro's on xbox as the yare on PC, i have seen Cleric that can kill you in less the 5 second in pvp at lvl 60, and like last nigth, the combo of a GF and a hunter ( named: GF: BladeBRAS, and the hunter: Ligthsomething) this 2 pvp as a pair and they are HARDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD to kill even more that the hunter daze/root anyone and kill you 2-3 knife no need to do more. and if you happens to survive the GF just kind of perma stun you and your dead lol. but is alright keep complaining about TR, because today are TR, once a nerf come intro hand then the hunter or another class will be the one on this topic. there ARE ways to conter TR. Example TR are really weak when it come to HP, and at lvl 60 any TR that are in no stealth mode is pretty much dead. i can tell in PC and Xbox are the same. is all about gear/ way of playing. but meh there will always be a complaining comment about something. Today TR took they share, next week, hunter are ******ly Op or something youll see.
No, I'm only level 50. The difference between my damage and 2nd place is shrinking. I now only come out on top by a few hundred thousand when I used to be topping 2nd place by a 2+ mil damage difference. I guess I'll see what happens when I get to the end game. You might have said earlier, but what class are you?
I'm trapper HR, aoe damage is unmatched atm, it might get lower as time goes on and people get better gear allowing them to kill mobs faster and me not get as much aoe damage as i use to, but atm i beat other classes by at least 10mil xD
For a guy who started this game as long ago as you e11z, I'm surprised you actually made the comment.
You and I both know the FOTM continually changes in this game. Every class in this game has once been considered OP(even DCs). Seems to always wind up with the TR however, which IMO is always generally the same type of problem.
The problem I have with it all is this.
So last night I had a 33-1-?? match in the 50-59 bracket, and was stuck in a group with an HR. He was doing nothing but complaining how overpowered the TR was and he thought it was ridiculous the score that I had. Firstly, the group we were fighting was obviously new to the game, as every single one was standing for my Duelist hits(not a good idea). Then I got to asking him some questions. His biggest problem, is the fact that he thinks TR's go into stealth too fast/too frequent/too long, and he cant see them to attack. He made it a point of telling me how he's gamed for years and blah blah. This again, is a big problem with new gamers coming into NW. A trickster rogue isn't a Rogue, or an Assassin that an MMORPG player is used to seeing i.e;EQ1, WWC, Aion, etc etc. The mechanics are significantly different. You cant compare the TR, to other mmo's Thief type class's, they are very different.
It seems to me it just always goes back to lack of knowledge on the game as a whole. I started asking him what his stat priorities and skills were, gear score, Tenacity ## and so on. In the 50-59 bracket he had a GS of less than 5k, 0 Tenacity, and no points spent in Constitution. I asked him if he knew NOT to waste his abilities when a TR goes into Impossible to Catch, he had no idea what that was, and while there is nothing wrong with that, its unfair to call a class OP and without skill, when you can't yourself even recognize a very important ability such as ITC.
I think it is very unfair to call any class OP in all honesty, especially when the person has done little to no research on other class's. There is always a way around mechanics, there have been since day 1 in this game. With tweaks and changes people figure out new ways to be awesome, and new ways to combat other class's.
I could write a novel on this subject but its pointless.
It is very hard to judge any class in this game pre-60 because of lack of knowledge of the person controlling the character, as well as its very common to have a large gap in Gear Score and stat priorities.
I strongly encourage players, new players especially, to do some research on all of the class's. Watch some YouTube videos, read the changes that have been done in the last few months. Understand the importance of correct stat priorities when wanting to compete in PvP, understand that a good player will change his/her encounters in PvP, depending on who/what/where they are fighting. Also understand that it is very possible that you, a new player, are playing against Veteran players who have over 2 years of knowledge on you, and more than likely know the class you are playing better than you do.
Ultimately....PvP is frustrating, and it is certainly not for everyone.
Alysin Chains
Trickster Rogue - 58
While yes you are right that people shouldnt judge any class pre-60, rogues are actually worse at 60, hell i watched my brother get a 32k crit on a player. Something like that shouldnt happen. And to the comment where rogues are different than other mmo's yes you are right in a sense because no other mmo can a rogue be perma stealthed and kill you without you seeing him getting 20k+ lashing blade crits, so on and so fourth. This is the only game where rogues are this broken imo and its not the players fault its the dev's, they let it go on for so long and didnt do anything about it where if they removed the 90% of hp with one hit and the perma stealth it would be a more balanced class. Not to say that you cant kill them, my HR can kill a rogue in 4-5sec if i get the drop on him, about the same as a rogue on me, the difference is most people can see me coming, where as a rogue you ahve no oppertunity to counter play him, ur just dead. Also plz dont say they require skill, i played one on the pc, simplest class in the world lol just spec into the bottom tree cause the peircing damage is broken atm and ur good. Now are rogues gods in this game? not by any means, but they are just there to punish new players for being new and to give a crutch for others who think "wow rogues are broken, time to level one up" Pvp can be frustrating but having a rogue 1 shot you all day makes it worse and will drive the pvp aspect into a small group of players who will eventually know eachtoher by name.
The worst part is that since everyone knows TR's are op in pvp, youre seeing a lot more of them pop up. Never understood why people intentionally play as op classes. And I'm not gonna even get in the argument of whether TR's are op or not. It's so blatantly obvious they are at an advantage in pvp that I'm not even gonna waste my time trying to argue my point.
While yes you are right that people shouldnt judge any class pre-60, rogues are actually worse at 60, hell i watched my brother get a 32k crit on a player. Something like that shouldnt happen. And to the comment where rogues are different than other mmo's yes you are right in a sense because no other mmo can a rogue be perma stealthed and kill you without you seeing him getting 20k+ lashing blade crits, so on and so fourth. This is the only game where rogues are this broken imo and its not the players fault its the dev's, they let it go on for so long and didnt do anything about it where if they removed the 90% of hp with one hit and the perma stealth it would be a more balanced class. Not to say that you cant kill them, my HR can kill a rogue in 4-5sec if i get the drop on him, about the same as a rogue on me, the difference is most people can see me coming, where as a rogue you ahve no oppertunity to counter play him, ur just dead. Also plz dont say they require skill, i played one on the pc, simplest class in the world lol just spec into the bottom tree cause the peircing damage is broken atm and ur good. Now are rogues gods in this game? not by any means, but they are just there to punish new players for being new and to give a crutch for others who think "wow rogues are broken, time to level one up" Pvp can be frustrating but having a rogue 1 shot you all day makes it worse and will drive the pvp aspect into a small group of players who will eventually know eachtoher by name.
Firstly - Permastealth Rogues, have never done high amounts of damage. They were designed and built with high recovery, to be Node contenders in PvP. Generally lower health, lower over all stats, i.e;ArP, Crit, Power. The point of recovery was to obviously reduce cool down time for abilities like Shadowstrike. Shadowstrike, is an ability that refills the TR's stealth meter. However, Shadowstrike does little to no damage. Permastealths also generally use Bait n Switch(which does Actually 0 damage, it is utility), and lastly they usually use Impossible to Catch, also a utility encounter. Some, depending on the situation will take out Bait and Switch for Path of the Blade, which also..does a low amount of damage. So no..I'm sorry, an actual Permastealth rogue will never get 20k crits on anyone, as they don't even use that ability...ever. Unless of course, they are playing people that are so terribly bad, the TR is having some fun. And even then, if the stars are completely aligned, the gods themselves are on their side, that person has terrible gear, no tenacity, doesn't dodge, and is completely debuffed than maybe..maaaaaaaaybe...a 20k crit is possible.
32k crits at 60 PvP? Yes..I've seen it, you are correct. But again, that's out of context. A 32k crit on a player with proper PvP gear, who ISNT debuffed at all...No, so unbelievably rare and extremely lucky if that were actually to happen. But an Exec TR, buffed from Devastating Shroud, with proper gear soft caps(Arp, crit), on a debuffed player? Yes..its possible, but even then, its not "that common".
Not trying to be rude, but you sound as misinformed about TR's in this game as the rest of the new players crying on the Forums.
A well built, geared, skilled CW can kill any class in this game in a single rotation, sometimes even half a rotation. Of course its dependent, but happens all the time in end game PvP.
Same can be said about an HR, a GF and a GWF.
If built properly, and played by a good player. Every class has the potential of roflstomping another class.
You will notice its not the lvl 60 players crying for nerf. It is almost always 99.9% new players, ,and pre-60. Or, its new 60's, or solely PvE spec'd/geared players against players who build for PvP.
My tenacity at lvl 58 is currently just under 900 on my TR. Not once, in 58 lvls have I ever been one shot by another TR.
Calling TR's an easy no skill win mode class is very ignorant and most definitely calling the kettle black. As this entire game...is easy. Every dungeon, every class, every encounter in this game...is easy mode. People have been asking for Heroic Modifiers on the dungeons since pretty much release on PC.
It takes "skill"...to be a competitive player with any class, in PvP in NW.
Does it take skill to beat a terrible player who just loves to stand and tank Duelist Flurry, but tries to dodge Impossible to Catch? No. And more than likely, that guy is crying how OP rogues are...
And to the comment where rogues are different than other mmo's yes you are right in a sense because no other mmo can a rogue be perma stealthed and kill you without you seeing him getting 20k+ lashing blade crits, so on and so fourth.
A little off topic, but stealthers (the various rogues from each realm) in Dark Age of Camelot could (and frequently did) kill multiple enemies without ever leaving stealth. Heck, they could take ten seconds to "hide in the shadows" and then teleport 1000' and insta-kill virtually anyone on the battlefield. Those stealth kills were often the first sign of an incoming invasion.
I use the example of DAoC not to argue that there are/were games where rogues are invisible killing machines, but to say that I don't think the answer should always be to nerf -- especially when the same character and skill trees apply to PvE and PvP. As a primarily PvE player, nothing frustrates me more than my PvE character spec becoming unplayable because of PvP balancing. Instead, why not buff the other classes to balance things out? That could equalize PvP without breaking PvE (and let's face it, AI doesn't care if you're OP).
The fun thing about DAoC was that every OP ability of one class was countered by an OP ability of another. It was like Rock, Paper, Scissors. It doesn't make sense that every class should have a counter for every other class in team-based PvP. Some classes should just be better against specific classes and worse against others. Doing something like making HRs trump TRs, who trump CWs, who trump GFs, who trump GWFs, who trump HRs, etc. would be the most fun... I think so anyway. That would make it a very strategic and team focused game type.
The only people that I've seen disagree about TR's being OP are other TR's which is no surprise. Hell, even other TR's have admitted to them being at an advantage in PVP. I honestly could care less as me being a well built CW, I tend to give a lot of trouble to TR's than most people. Its just frustrating seeing my team constantly getting slaughtered by none other than a TR's. You know it's a problem when you constantly see a TR at the top of the leaderboard with 40 kills and 3 deaths. And that is almost every single game. Cmon now, not every TR is a pro yet almost all are able to post numbers like that.
I'm not disagreeing that people really feel that TR's are OP. Everyone after all is free to have their own opinion.
I'm merely trying to help inform players of the reasons on why, in context, the rogues are OP. Gear, player, skill, build, abilities etc etc all play a vital role.
I've played every class in this game at the highest lvl of PvP, except for GF, and in my experience..they are perfectly balanced now. Months ago it was DC's that were seriously lacking and they gave them a huge boost. The class's seem perfect now.
If they do in fact do changes to the TR. It wont matter. Skilled TR's will look at the skills given to them with the changes, and readjust. Skilled players will always be in the top of PvP for obvious reasons. -->Skill<-- Doesn't matter which class it is. The driver in this game, certainly makes a difference.
I strongly recommend researching all the class's abilities and watching Youtube videos of PvP from each class if you want to be competitive in PvP in this game.
There must be a lot more "skilled" TR's in the game than any other other class then since TR's are always at the top of the leaderboards. And considering how new the Xb1 version is, I doubt that is the case. Doesn't affect me much as I tend to dominate in my own right just due to me actually researching my class and build but put an uneducated TR against any other uneducated class and the TR wins 9/10 times.
Hopefully as the game ages and people start to actually put thought into their class and build, it won't be AS bad but it is pretty clear TR's are not on an even playing field as other classes in terms of pvp. Not everyone are noobs as you are making it out to be, I've actually done a ton of research on this game and pvp as that is what I enjoy the most.
What really bothers me is that a lot of people are already starting to shy away from pvp due to this whole TR issue.
There must be a lot more "skilled" TR's in the game than any other other class then since TR's are always at the top of the leaderboards. And considering how new the Xb1 version is, I doubt that is the case. Doesn't affect me much as I tend to dominate in my own right just due to me actually researching my class and build but put an uneducated TR against any other uneducated class and the TR wins 9/10 times.
Hopefully as the game ages and people start to actually put thought into their class and build, it won't be AS bad but it is pretty clear TR's are not on an even playing field as other classes in terms of pvp. Not everyone are noobs as you are making it out to be, I've actually done a ton of research on this game and pvp as that is what I enjoy the most.
Nah I didn't mean or intend to say everyone is noobies I do think though the player base is very new, and a lot of the problems and complaints I see are coming from inexperienced and uninformed players.
I do nothing but PvP as of yet, and out of the well over a hundred matches I've been in, I have only run into maybe 2 other TR's that are getting these high numbers that I keep hearing about.
In my experience on Xbox one so far, the most common kill numbers(from TR's as well), are around that 5-12 mark. Pretty much onpar with every other class.
Anyways this subject is always a dead end.
Just figured I'd put my 2cents in and try and help a bit
There must be a lot more "skilled" TR's in the game than any other other class then since TR's are always at the top of the leaderboards. And considering how new the Xb1 version is, I doubt that is the case.
Top of the leaderboards all depend on "Score" and unless you are unaware of this fact then I'm sorry. TRs are going to top the leaderboards more than any other class and being "OP" isn't the reason.
They are the most mobile character and are the best suited for backcapping which will grant them +300 points everytime.
Since they are so mobile they are able to roam from node to node capping them and helping teammates cap which will grant them +300 points everytime.
Yes, they will get a lot of kills also, because, well... They are portrayed as killers. Soooo what do they do? Kill.
Killing a player near a node would give you +50 for the kill and +100 for defending the tower (If I'm not mistaken.)
but put an uneducated TR against any other uneducated class and the TR wins 9/10 times.
^ I guess I could agree because TRs are meant to single target nuke so this could hold true but also this is all mere speculation and your opinion, not the truth.
Every class (I think) can be OP in PVP. I've ran into DC's and GW's that won't die. Hunters dish out a lot of damage as well and are overall better than Rogues (because they can do high damage without stealth).
Every class (I think) can be OP in PVP. I've ran into DC's and GW's that won't die. Hunters dish out a lot of damage as well and are overall better than Rogues (because they can do high damage without stealth).
I'm fairly new to the game but even I know that the PvP in this game is not your typical TDM or FFA, it's DOMINATION.
Kills do not matter so much individually because it's balanced as a TEAM fight.
If a certain TR is rolling over your teammates, simply take 1 DPS and a CW to take care of him, easily. (this will hold true for equally geared, equally skilled, blah blah blah stipulations but that's not the point, the point is it's a TEAM mode and if you can't handle 1 player on the other team, take 2 to go kill him.)
Dont lump all tr into one group. Exec. Tr is scrub path in PvP. Go perma saboteur and play objectively. I can't one shot yet, soon though, but what I can do is hold a point against 2 or 3 people. Back capping for the win on many occasions.
With the nerf to the rogue set bonus and to executioner tree, no nerf are further needed.
It would hurt the class too much to nerf it further, being invisible is obviously a huge advantage in pvp, thats why rogues are always
slightly more powerful in every game for pvp and slightly less in PvE. It's a trade off for the class.
I would not mind seeing more tools added to other classes to help fight rogues, like invisibility detection or something.
But nerfing the rogue would hurt the class to much in PvE IMO, the rogue is where it should be at I thinks
I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
Ah, Rogue's. Seems Xbox players haven't found their weakness yet. Control classes are the strongest against them, Trapper Ranger..for they can stop them from rolling away, Control Wizard if you propely use your control powers, even those that hit whilst they are in stealth like icey terrain. Then there's a Guardian Fighter, they can destroy any initiative the Rogue has, by forcing them to expend encounters on the shield.
The biggest way to tell if a rogue is coming for you is the capture node's progress bar. Fighting rogue's is about anticipation.
Dont lump all tr into one group. Exec. Tr is scrub path in PvP. Go perma saboteur and play objectively. I can't one shot yet, soon though, but what I can do is hold a point against 2 or 3 people. Back capping for the win on many occasions.
I assume you meant Perma-Stealth not Perma-Saboteur and from my experience in the end-game PvP you won't be 1 shotting as much as you think becuase most of your stats are in Recovery and Recovery items. Without the +Crit +Crit Severity +Power +ArP and the likes then you won't be seeing many high numbers once you start fighting properly geared players. (Meaning those with PvP gear and have high Tenanicty for PVP resistance.)
Ah, Rogue's. Seems Xbox players haven't found their weakness yet. Control classes are the strongest against them, Trapper Ranger..for they can stop them from rolling away, Control Wizard if you propely use your control powers, even those that hit whilst they are in stealth like icey terrain. Then there's a Guardian Fighter, they can destroy any initiative the Rogue has, by forcing them to expend encounters on the shield.
The biggest way to tell if a rogue is coming for you is the capture node's progress bar. Fighting rogue's is about anticipation.
Exactly, there are many counters to Rogues and me being a Rogue I have seen what works and doesn't work against me so most of these people spamming the OP and NERF <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> just don't understand them and their Powers.
That is the problem it seems these days. The quick way to deal with issues is to yell NERF! Its a new game for alot of people and they havent figured out how to deal with that class properly so in their minds it is not THEM it is the rogue's. It must be, right? Once people figure out how to dispose of them more effectively they will understand. I found when playing a new game the best way to figure out how to beat a class is to play a class. Roll a rogue and give it a shot. You will quickly see their strengths and weaknesses. I do not play much PvP but I (as a cleric) beat a rogue once. It was more of my wearing him down slowly and he just couldnt finish me off with my constant healing and throwing him back off my LOL. It was quite comical and a very lengthy fight. I was smiling ear to ear and I like to think he was doing the same.
I would have to see a NERF to the rogues as in dungeons it has seemed lately in the epic dungeons the first person to come to my aid when I am being swarmed by adds is the rogue. NERF them too much and it will unbalance PVE. Sometimes we have to look at the whole picture and not just our personal distaste for one specific aspect. Are they tough in PvP? Sure they are as is any class specc'd and played right. But they are equally important in PvE.
I assume you meant Perma-Stealth not Perma-Saboteur and from my experience in the end-game PvP you won't be 1 shotting as much as you think becuase most of your stats are in Recovery and Recovery items. Without the +Crit +Crit Severity +Power +ArP and the likes then you won't be seeing many high numbers once you start fighting properly geared players. (Meaning those with PvP gear and have high Tenanicty for PVP resistance.)
I figured it was understood that I was talking about perma stealth. the advantage is you have 100% critical in stealth. U can still stack crit sev. And just perma. Yes I agree the one shots go down once everyone gets the PvP gear. Once we get more content that changes though. look at sicarious (spelling) on pc, we have let him hold a point against the whole team before.
TR's are a little ridiculous at times in PvP and some classes have a harder time dealing with them. I agree more people are making TR's just for PvP. But a lot of the classes can compete. I use HR trapper and feel at level 60 with proper gear rogues are no problem. Especially in groups. Unless they use oghmas token once in a while they can't escape snares. CW is also a great counter class and SW players are starting to realize they're class potential. I think the rogues do need a nerf but other players also need to look through the powers and feats and find complimenting powers to use in PvP. Especially every generic HR who thinks archery is a viable path to follow.
Ah, Rogue's. Seems Xbox players haven't found their weakness yet. Control classes are the strongest against them, Trapper Ranger..for they can stop them from rolling away, Control Wizard if you propely use your control powers, even those that hit whilst they are in stealth like icey terrain. Then there's a Guardian Fighter, they can destroy any initiative the Rogue has, by forcing them to expend encounters on the shield.
The biggest way to tell if a rogue is coming for you is the capture node's progress bar. Fighting rogue's is about anticipation.
i wish that were true but every time i try to root a rogue or any other class, my roots never seem to work
yea TR is crazy overpowered worst i have ever seen in a mmo they out dps all other classes by miles in single target granted they should be better but right now they are far far better at single target then any other class should be nerfed a lot yes there are probably ways to stop them in pvp but if they hit u they should not do the insane dps they currently do
yea TR is crazy overpowered worst i have ever seen in a mmo they out dps all other classes by miles in single target granted they should be better but right now they are far far better at single target then any other class should be nerfed a lot yes there are probably ways to stop them in pvp but if they hit u they should not do the insane dps they currently do
as a hunter i dont find it too difficult to keep up in all honesty, if im not the first in damage im usually second, and not by a mile margin
Comments
Not much you can do about it, constricting, hindering, switch, disruptive shot (daze), fox shift, hindering strike, steel breeze = dead in 90% of my openings on rogues/wizards/hunters/warlocks, basically anything squishie dies to that rotation instantly and when i walk up with forest ghost so i have stealth it is just completely unfair. Rogues are all about getting the drop on you, if they dont get that huge lashing blade hit their damage isnt near as impressive.
Aldren Boweing - 60 HR
Are you max level? because though rogues are second to me (i guess im saying they blow compared to my damage) but usually half my damage after the instance is over, they do nowhere near my aoe and since there are no single target fights in this game single target damage is irreverent. For example i had a cw in my group get a 200k + crit with ice knife when my max damage is like 30k with a daily but because of my aoe damage i can out damage him by 10mil or more.
Aldren Boweing - 60 HR
I always love seeing comments like these.
For a guy who started this game as long ago as you e11z, I'm surprised you actually made the comment.
You and I both know the FOTM continually changes in this game. Every class in this game has once been considered OP(even DCs). Seems to always wind up with the TR however, which IMO is always generally the same type of problem.
The problem I have with it all is this.
So last night I had a 33-1-?? match in the 50-59 bracket, and was stuck in a group with an HR. He was doing nothing but complaining how overpowered the TR was and he thought it was ridiculous the score that I had. Firstly, the group we were fighting was obviously new to the game, as every single one was standing for my Duelist hits(not a good idea). Then I got to asking him some questions. His biggest problem, is the fact that he thinks TR's go into stealth too fast/too frequent/too long, and he cant see them to attack. He made it a point of telling me how he's gamed for years and blah blah. This again, is a big problem with new gamers coming into NW. A trickster rogue isn't a Rogue, or an Assassin that an MMORPG player is used to seeing i.e;EQ1, WWC, Aion, etc etc. The mechanics are significantly different. You cant compare the TR, to other mmo's Thief type class's, they are very different.
It seems to me it just always goes back to lack of knowledge on the game as a whole. I started asking him what his stat priorities and skills were, gear score, Tenacity ## and so on. In the 50-59 bracket he had a GS of less than 5k, 0 Tenacity, and no points spent in Constitution. I asked him if he knew NOT to waste his abilities when a TR goes into Impossible to Catch, he had no idea what that was, and while there is nothing wrong with that, its unfair to call a class OP and without skill, when you can't yourself even recognize a very important ability such as ITC.
I think it is very unfair to call any class OP in all honesty, especially when the person has done little to no research on other class's. There is always a way around mechanics, there have been since day 1 in this game. With tweaks and changes people figure out new ways to be awesome, and new ways to combat other class's.
I could write a novel on this subject but its pointless.
It is very hard to judge any class in this game pre-60 because of lack of knowledge of the person controlling the character, as well as its very common to have a large gap in Gear Score and stat priorities.
I strongly encourage players, new players especially, to do some research on all of the class's. Watch some YouTube videos, read the changes that have been done in the last few months. Understand the importance of correct stat priorities when wanting to compete in PvP, understand that a good player will change his/her encounters in PvP, depending on who/what/where they are fighting. Also understand that it is very possible that you, a new player, are playing against Veteran players who have over 2 years of knowledge on you, and more than likely know the class you are playing better than you do.
Ultimately....PvP is frustrating, and it is certainly not for everyone.
Alysin Chains
Trickster Rogue - 58
I'm trapper HR, aoe damage is unmatched atm, it might get lower as time goes on and people get better gear allowing them to kill mobs faster and me not get as much aoe damage as i use to, but atm i beat other classes by at least 10mil xD
Aldren Boweing - 60 HR
While yes you are right that people shouldnt judge any class pre-60, rogues are actually worse at 60, hell i watched my brother get a 32k crit on a player. Something like that shouldnt happen. And to the comment where rogues are different than other mmo's yes you are right in a sense because no other mmo can a rogue be perma stealthed and kill you without you seeing him getting 20k+ lashing blade crits, so on and so fourth. This is the only game where rogues are this broken imo and its not the players fault its the dev's, they let it go on for so long and didnt do anything about it where if they removed the 90% of hp with one hit and the perma stealth it would be a more balanced class. Not to say that you cant kill them, my HR can kill a rogue in 4-5sec if i get the drop on him, about the same as a rogue on me, the difference is most people can see me coming, where as a rogue you ahve no oppertunity to counter play him, ur just dead. Also plz dont say they require skill, i played one on the pc, simplest class in the world lol just spec into the bottom tree cause the peircing damage is broken atm and ur good. Now are rogues gods in this game? not by any means, but they are just there to punish new players for being new and to give a crutch for others who think "wow rogues are broken, time to level one up" Pvp can be frustrating but having a rogue 1 shot you all day makes it worse and will drive the pvp aspect into a small group of players who will eventually know eachtoher by name.
Aldren Boweing - 60 HR
And yes, it only gets worse at lvl 60.
Firstly - Permastealth Rogues, have never done high amounts of damage. They were designed and built with high recovery, to be Node contenders in PvP. Generally lower health, lower over all stats, i.e;ArP, Crit, Power. The point of recovery was to obviously reduce cool down time for abilities like Shadowstrike. Shadowstrike, is an ability that refills the TR's stealth meter. However, Shadowstrike does little to no damage. Permastealths also generally use Bait n Switch(which does Actually 0 damage, it is utility), and lastly they usually use Impossible to Catch, also a utility encounter. Some, depending on the situation will take out Bait and Switch for Path of the Blade, which also..does a low amount of damage. So no..I'm sorry, an actual Permastealth rogue will never get 20k crits on anyone, as they don't even use that ability...ever. Unless of course, they are playing people that are so terribly bad, the TR is having some fun. And even then, if the stars are completely aligned, the gods themselves are on their side, that person has terrible gear, no tenacity, doesn't dodge, and is completely debuffed than maybe..maaaaaaaaybe...a 20k crit is possible.
32k crits at 60 PvP? Yes..I've seen it, you are correct. But again, that's out of context. A 32k crit on a player with proper PvP gear, who ISNT debuffed at all...No, so unbelievably rare and extremely lucky if that were actually to happen. But an Exec TR, buffed from Devastating Shroud, with proper gear soft caps(Arp, crit), on a debuffed player? Yes..its possible, but even then, its not "that common".
Not trying to be rude, but you sound as misinformed about TR's in this game as the rest of the new players crying on the Forums.
A well built, geared, skilled CW can kill any class in this game in a single rotation, sometimes even half a rotation. Of course its dependent, but happens all the time in end game PvP.
Same can be said about an HR, a GF and a GWF.
If built properly, and played by a good player. Every class has the potential of roflstomping another class.
You will notice its not the lvl 60 players crying for nerf. It is almost always 99.9% new players, ,and pre-60. Or, its new 60's, or solely PvE spec'd/geared players against players who build for PvP.
My tenacity at lvl 58 is currently just under 900 on my TR. Not once, in 58 lvls have I ever been one shot by another TR.
Calling TR's an easy no skill win mode class is very ignorant and most definitely calling the kettle black. As this entire game...is easy. Every dungeon, every class, every encounter in this game...is easy mode. People have been asking for Heroic Modifiers on the dungeons since pretty much release on PC.
It takes "skill"...to be a competitive player with any class, in PvP in NW.
Does it take skill to beat a terrible player who just loves to stand and tank Duelist Flurry, but tries to dodge Impossible to Catch? No. And more than likely, that guy is crying how OP rogues are...
I use the example of DAoC not to argue that there are/were games where rogues are invisible killing machines, but to say that I don't think the answer should always be to nerf -- especially when the same character and skill trees apply to PvE and PvP. As a primarily PvE player, nothing frustrates me more than my PvE character spec becoming unplayable because of PvP balancing. Instead, why not buff the other classes to balance things out? That could equalize PvP without breaking PvE (and let's face it, AI doesn't care if you're OP).
The fun thing about DAoC was that every OP ability of one class was countered by an OP ability of another. It was like Rock, Paper, Scissors. It doesn't make sense that every class should have a counter for every other class in team-based PvP. Some classes should just be better against specific classes and worse against others. Doing something like making HRs trump TRs, who trump CWs, who trump GFs, who trump GWFs, who trump HRs, etc. would be the most fun... I think so anyway. That would make it a very strategic and team focused game type.
I'm merely trying to help inform players of the reasons on why, in context, the rogues are OP. Gear, player, skill, build, abilities etc etc all play a vital role.
I've played every class in this game at the highest lvl of PvP, except for GF, and in my experience..they are perfectly balanced now. Months ago it was DC's that were seriously lacking and they gave them a huge boost. The class's seem perfect now.
If they do in fact do changes to the TR. It wont matter. Skilled TR's will look at the skills given to them with the changes, and readjust. Skilled players will always be in the top of PvP for obvious reasons. -->Skill<-- Doesn't matter which class it is. The driver in this game, certainly makes a difference.
I strongly recommend researching all the class's abilities and watching Youtube videos of PvP from each class if you want to be competitive in PvP in this game.
Hopefully as the game ages and people start to actually put thought into their class and build, it won't be AS bad but it is pretty clear TR's are not on an even playing field as other classes in terms of pvp. Not everyone are noobs as you are making it out to be, I've actually done a ton of research on this game and pvp as that is what I enjoy the most.
What really bothers me is that a lot of people are already starting to shy away from pvp due to this whole TR issue.
Nah I didn't mean or intend to say everyone is noobies
I do nothing but PvP as of yet, and out of the well over a hundred matches I've been in, I have only run into maybe 2 other TR's that are getting these high numbers that I keep hearing about.
In my experience on Xbox one so far, the most common kill numbers(from TR's as well), are around that 5-12 mark. Pretty much onpar with every other class.
Anyways this subject is always a dead end.
Just figured I'd put my 2cents in and try and help a bit
Hit me up in game anyone!
Alysin Chains - 58 TR
GT Munkness81
Top of the leaderboards all depend on "Score" and unless you are unaware of this fact then I'm sorry. TRs are going to top the leaderboards more than any other class and being "OP" isn't the reason.
They are the most mobile character and are the best suited for backcapping which will grant them +300 points everytime.
Since they are so mobile they are able to roam from node to node capping them and helping teammates cap which will grant them +300 points everytime.
Yes, they will get a lot of kills also, because, well... They are portrayed as killers. Soooo what do they do? Kill.
Killing a player near a node would give you +50 for the kill and +100 for defending the tower (If I'm not mistaken.)
More people need to be like you and less people will stop complaing about getting roflstomped by TRs.
^ I guess I could agree because TRs are meant to single target nuke so this could hold true but also this is all mere speculation and your opinion, not the truth.
I'm fairly new to the game but even I know that the PvP in this game is not your typical TDM or FFA, it's DOMINATION.
Kills do not matter so much individually because it's balanced as a TEAM fight.
If a certain TR is rolling over your teammates, simply take 1 DPS and a CW to take care of him, easily. (this will hold true for equally geared, equally skilled, blah blah blah stipulations but that's not the point, the point is it's a TEAM mode and if you can't handle 1 player on the other team, take 2 to go kill him.)
It would hurt the class too much to nerf it further, being invisible is obviously a huge advantage in pvp, thats why rogues are always
slightly more powerful in every game for pvp and slightly less in PvE. It's a trade off for the class.
I would not mind seeing more tools added to other classes to help fight rogues, like invisibility detection or something.
But nerfing the rogue would hurt the class to much in PvE IMO, the rogue is where it should be at I thinks
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
The biggest way to tell if a rogue is coming for you is the capture node's progress bar. Fighting rogue's is about anticipation.
I assume you meant Perma-Stealth not Perma-Saboteur and from my experience in the end-game PvP you won't be 1 shotting as much as you think becuase most of your stats are in Recovery and Recovery items. Without the +Crit +Crit Severity +Power +ArP and the likes then you won't be seeing many high numbers once you start fighting properly geared players. (Meaning those with PvP gear and have high Tenanicty for PVP resistance.)
Exactly, there are many counters to Rogues and me being a Rogue I have seen what works and doesn't work against me so most of these people spamming the OP and NERF <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> just don't understand them and their Powers.
I would have to see a NERF to the rogues as in dungeons it has seemed lately in the epic dungeons the first person to come to my aid when I am being swarmed by adds is the rogue. NERF them too much and it will unbalance PVE. Sometimes we have to look at the whole picture and not just our personal distaste for one specific aspect. Are they tough in PvP? Sure they are as is any class specc'd and played right. But they are equally important in PvE.
Just my 2 coppers. Thanks for reading
I figured it was understood that I was talking about perma stealth. the advantage is you have 100% critical in stealth. U can still stack crit sev. And just perma. Yes I agree the one shots go down once everyone gets the PvP gear. Once we get more content that changes though. look at sicarious (spelling) on pc, we have let him hold a point against the whole team before.
i wish that were true but every time i try to root a rogue or any other class, my roots never seem to work
as a hunter i dont find it too difficult to keep up in all honesty, if im not the first in damage im usually second, and not by a mile margin