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Trivial combat is boring
quotable
Member Posts: 29 Arc User
Many years ago (basically, anything over about 30), many video games had no semblance of play balance. Some games were trivial to keep going basically forever, or until you win in case the game had some end. Others were just shy of impossible and you could expect game over inside of 5 minutes on a good day. Some even had adjustable difficulty settings so that you could take your pick and choose either trivial or impossible, but nothing really in between.
In the mid to late 1980s, many game developers got much, much better at play balance. They made games were it was realistically possible to win, but it was also very possible to lose. This, of course, was a good thing.
Eventually came the move to online games, and games wanting you to pay repeatedly, rather than just buying a cartridge (or later, optical disk) once and never paying another dime. At this point, online game developers got a keen interest in keeping people playing their games for a long time.
The surest way to get someone to quit a game is for him to be completely stuck with no hope of progress. Trying something, failing, seeing what went wrong, adjusting tactics, and winning the next time is the stuff that good play balance is made of. But smacking into a brick wall where you absolutely must do X to proceed, you've tried 12 times, failed miserably every time, and have no clue how to do any better, is a recipe for people to quit. This can be due to bugs making something uncompletable, botched play balance making something random ridiculously difficult in unintended ways, or accidentally requiring a player to randomly guess something obscure that you'd never get from in-game sources (e.g., when I played WildStar, it had quests that could only be obtained by typing undocumented console commands). But the result is the same: player quits game and never pays the developer another dime.
Online game developers have tried very hard to avoid this. And often, they've swung too far toward making everything too easy. Show up, do stuff, and you win. Even if you weren't paying attention. Some MMORPGs have had combat where you could literally stand up and leave the room to go get a drink in the middle of combat and it didn't matter. Fortunately, the industry has tried to move away from that, and Cryptic clearly put a lot of work into giving Neverwinter an interesting combat system.
But any combat system becomes boring if victory is nearly automatic. There's nothing wrong with having some easy things mixed in with more challenging things. But having only easy things and no challenges is a problem.
That was effectively the case for most of the content before module 6 hit. Have you ever been stuck on anything below level 60 for any meaningful length of time? With seven characters at level 60, having done essentially all non-repeatable quests, and having cleared all of the tier 1 dungeons, it's probable that the majority of my deaths came from falling off a cliff. And in most places, it's impossible to fall off a cliff for instant death.
I'm not super awesome at the game; the combat was too easy. Have you ever been stuck on anything below level 60 for any meaningful length of time, apart from having trouble finding a group? Up through and including tier 1 content before yesterday's patch, the only places I'd ever seen a full group struggle (other than a bug where the pillar wouldn't fall in Lair of the Mad Dragon) were Yshiggol, epic Chartilifax, and epic Ethraniev Marrowslake. Outside of those, a full group of people about the right level running around randomly without any semblance of tactics or coordination would steamroll through just about everything.
This happens partially due to developers not wanting to throw in anything where people get stuck and quit. But it's also partially due to power creep: As new content comes along, the tendency is to make players stronger, not weaker. Add more types of buffs, more skills, improve existing skills, etc. Mobs don't get stronger, but players sure do, making everything easier.
Raising the level cap is an opportunity to wipe that all away and reset the difficulty to something more reasonable. Such as making it so that a level 60 character in level 60 equippable gear doesn't waltz through the top end endgame content without having to pay attention. Cryptic took that opportunity, and good for them.
So now people are crying that it's too hard for a level 60 in gear no better than the greens you'll get around level 61 to clear level 73 content. Well of course it's too hard. Something would be seriously wrong with the game if it weren't so. If a lot of level 70 people in new tier 1 epics (require level 70 to equip) were struggling, then maybe the difficulty needs to be looked at. Maybe. But do I believe that people were in that boat mere hours after the launch of module 6? In a word: no.
In the mid to late 1980s, many game developers got much, much better at play balance. They made games were it was realistically possible to win, but it was also very possible to lose. This, of course, was a good thing.
Eventually came the move to online games, and games wanting you to pay repeatedly, rather than just buying a cartridge (or later, optical disk) once and never paying another dime. At this point, online game developers got a keen interest in keeping people playing their games for a long time.
The surest way to get someone to quit a game is for him to be completely stuck with no hope of progress. Trying something, failing, seeing what went wrong, adjusting tactics, and winning the next time is the stuff that good play balance is made of. But smacking into a brick wall where you absolutely must do X to proceed, you've tried 12 times, failed miserably every time, and have no clue how to do any better, is a recipe for people to quit. This can be due to bugs making something uncompletable, botched play balance making something random ridiculously difficult in unintended ways, or accidentally requiring a player to randomly guess something obscure that you'd never get from in-game sources (e.g., when I played WildStar, it had quests that could only be obtained by typing undocumented console commands). But the result is the same: player quits game and never pays the developer another dime.
Online game developers have tried very hard to avoid this. And often, they've swung too far toward making everything too easy. Show up, do stuff, and you win. Even if you weren't paying attention. Some MMORPGs have had combat where you could literally stand up and leave the room to go get a drink in the middle of combat and it didn't matter. Fortunately, the industry has tried to move away from that, and Cryptic clearly put a lot of work into giving Neverwinter an interesting combat system.
But any combat system becomes boring if victory is nearly automatic. There's nothing wrong with having some easy things mixed in with more challenging things. But having only easy things and no challenges is a problem.
That was effectively the case for most of the content before module 6 hit. Have you ever been stuck on anything below level 60 for any meaningful length of time? With seven characters at level 60, having done essentially all non-repeatable quests, and having cleared all of the tier 1 dungeons, it's probable that the majority of my deaths came from falling off a cliff. And in most places, it's impossible to fall off a cliff for instant death.
I'm not super awesome at the game; the combat was too easy. Have you ever been stuck on anything below level 60 for any meaningful length of time, apart from having trouble finding a group? Up through and including tier 1 content before yesterday's patch, the only places I'd ever seen a full group struggle (other than a bug where the pillar wouldn't fall in Lair of the Mad Dragon) were Yshiggol, epic Chartilifax, and epic Ethraniev Marrowslake. Outside of those, a full group of people about the right level running around randomly without any semblance of tactics or coordination would steamroll through just about everything.
This happens partially due to developers not wanting to throw in anything where people get stuck and quit. But it's also partially due to power creep: As new content comes along, the tendency is to make players stronger, not weaker. Add more types of buffs, more skills, improve existing skills, etc. Mobs don't get stronger, but players sure do, making everything easier.
Raising the level cap is an opportunity to wipe that all away and reset the difficulty to something more reasonable. Such as making it so that a level 60 character in level 60 equippable gear doesn't waltz through the top end endgame content without having to pay attention. Cryptic took that opportunity, and good for them.
So now people are crying that it's too hard for a level 60 in gear no better than the greens you'll get around level 61 to clear level 73 content. Well of course it's too hard. Something would be seriously wrong with the game if it weren't so. If a lot of level 70 people in new tier 1 epics (require level 70 to equip) were struggling, then maybe the difficulty needs to be looked at. Maybe. But do I believe that people were in that boat mere hours after the launch of module 6? In a word: no.
Quaternion from the previous forum
Post edited by quotable on
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Everything you have said above is true, except....
Neverwinter has turned into a game of the have's and have not's. As someone who has played this game since close to the beginning I would say I am one of the have's. My friend who has been playing Neverwinter for the last 8 months is not. He can spend some money on the game, and has. But not the 1000's of dollars needed to get into legendary gear. So, he will never be able to catch up to peple who have played a long time. Now tis issue clearly caters to people who have higher geared characters in a attempt to keep them in game. But it just makes the gap wider. Now those who have barely been able to do things at 60 get to struggle to 70 and barely be able to do things again. While those of us who have things get to work our way to 70 and then start refining new stuff and pour more money into the game. This game just became much more casual player unfriendly. And in the end it is a good first step to killing the game.
All that stuff that the "haves" spent their time accumulating just got wiped away by the new module. Now you get greens dropping like candy that are better than the old epics. Everyone who is level 60 just caught up. Raising the level cap tends to do that.
And no, you don't need to spend thousands of dollars on this game. Because you don't need to get legendaries. The legendaries aren't there with the intention that everyone will be decked out in them. They're there to give whales something stupid to spend a fortune on, while mostly not disrupting the game for everyone else, unless you like to PVP and were hoping for some semblance of balance. But you figure out that the PVP here isn't balanced sometime around when you hit level 2 and it makes you stronger. If not sooner.
Quaternion from the previous forum
I just took my level 11 paladin to Whispering Caverns. The game gives a warning that it might be too hard, but it let me go. It was like that long before module 6, too. That's not new; what's new is people acting like they don't realize that 60 isn't at the level cap anymore.
You can make a case for walling things off that are intended to be too difficult for your current state. They've done that in the past, such as requiring gearscore and boons to enter Icewind Dale. I prefer letting players try what they want and fail if they try something stupid.
Quaternion from the previous forum
The thing is....legendary artifacts and legendary artifact equipment are mainly for PVP purposes.
Using 4 well chosen epic quality artifacts and well chosen epic equipment with some enchants...with work nicely in PVE with a brained team.
New players need 100% 1 thing: x2 Coal Wards..to make a soulforge enchant and a weapon enchant. All the rest they can get by farming daily quests.
The time that passed since launch is too short, and the only thing about which everyone is certain are the boring repeateble leveling quests.
It's be really nice if they gave you a character bound coal ward upon reaching 70. haha.. but its abusable by people farming characters up to 70 (thats 2.5 million XP though not exactly an easy task.) then using it and deleteing / remaking
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
So why again is in madatory to get all boons before you level 60+?
Whatever NW does, someone will blame them for killing the game. Because not being able to complain makes some people unhappy. And accepting, how a game plays or accepting new content by adapting is impossible for some people.
Also, not everyone plays a game for the same reason. Some of these reasons (like being succesful and / or consuming every shred of content without having to invest a reasonable amount of time and work) may be completely crackbrained, but hey, we are free to have these reasons as much as we want.
It's difficult to ignore these people, trying to infest everyone with their negativity, but I do my very best, hoping they will get bored soon and leave the cool people alone, having fun.
Not everyone has their perfect soulforged and perfect vorpal enchantments. The people that do still have the same advantage they had before, everyone else just got a lot weaker. You probably have most boons already too, those that don't can't get them now.
Also, if Sharandar and Dread Ring are level 70 only content like some people claim, then why does it give crappy level 60 rewards and scales you up at all? The enemies are level 73 there now, but the patch notes say level 72 is as strong as 65 was in mod 5, so these mobs are now what would have been level 67 in mob 5. This is way over the top. Fun is not being beaten up by overpowered zombies, wolfs, bears or knifethrowers while you are supposed to be an "epic hero".
I know many people think MMO are supposed to feel like work, but I choose this game because it was not like that. I just wanna relax and have some fun defeating monsters, not work myself through hordes of frustrating enemies that are for some reason 20 times as strong as my character.
Don't know why exactly - maybe because at the time, only nerdy types used to play games and now they have a wider audience (both in age and interest). Maybe because the old playerbase has gotten older and while it was fun to beat your head over something 20 years ago, now you don't really have the time, just want to get from work and enjoy some minutes of fun.
Sure, there are people out there who have lots of time or who still enjoy the challenge, but for the most part it seems the industry is steering toward what the masses request - "easier". And MMOs are like that for the most part too. Some companies have tried to profit from this, to offer a nieche for hard, solo unfriendly or the like, but most often than not they realized the minority who yells hard about it is just a minority and you need the majority for the biggest profit (or even survive in some cases).
My point - times change, it's not like it used to be. People change. Most people actually don't enjoy challenge and hard content where they have to grind and waste a lot of time. There are PvP players who actually enjoy crushing someone undergeared and pay to get in that position.
Good sum up i think (allthough i am in favour for harder content), i think for some people this is kind of hard to understand (including myself). But wouldnt you agree that Neverwinter was too easy? At least at the end of mod 5?
I mean all the boons - the artifacts etc?
IF this Neverwinter is a family game that the 10 year olds play with their mother and father (or other constellations) and this is the majority then i need to know soon.
I mean i exiled to Wraeclast partially allready :d
If you mean that when you die you loose your progress then it's a big and you should contact technical support.
If you mean that when you die you get resurrected at the next camp fire with a wound and have to go back the way to where you went down, then you are right. It is frustrating. The same as it had been all the time. Be it at an endboss where you have to wait until your group gets wiped or at IWD because you have only a GS of 12k. But that is what an RPG does. It sets you against a challenge and the fun is looking for a way to beat it.
If you are looking for a game without challenges or without the need to dedicate some time, then most MMOs are not the right game for you. Better try plaing something like solitaire or Zoo Tycoon.
Just for protocol: I did Sunken Shore with a formerly 15k cw without perfect soul or vorpal and no enchantment better than lvl 7. Without dying or having too many problems. I had to tweak my rotation, need to dodge from time to time (because of new LS) and hat to get some better equipment. Like i had to do before with each new mod. But hey, I love challenges.
That's a blanket statement that contradicts what I'm seeing in Sharandar. I see some people needing rez's, some scraping by, and some going with HP untouched. If you're dying every 5 minutes you have something to work on, which is a good thing.
It's time to put the try-hard pants back on.
Right, because there is absolutely no middle ground between the difficulty of this game and solitaire.
This is pointless, you guys abviously enjoy being one-shot by everything because if you make a tiny mistake you deserve to die and people that don't have good enchantments already shouldn't be able to play anyway. MMOs are supposed to be work, not fun, I get it now.
They don't remember the time when game was challenging, they joined when it wasn't, so now you have all those complaints that now they need to think to do something. So they ask the same question - I didn't need a brain before so why now?
Neverwinter was good when it came out - you had purple items and some enchantments. Content was challenging but doable. But then we got artifact gear and there was no new content for such items. All dungeons and skirmishes looked like hitting Pinatas with closed eyes.
For me the problem started with artifact gear - there will be always someone who has it green and then content will be too difficult, for people with legendary it will be too easy. Instead of removing that monstrosity from the game they go further with Greater Artifacts and later probably with Major and so on. Well good luck with that because after a while content will be too easy again. There will be mod 7, much harder content and new class of artifacts yelling "feed me".
It is pointless, as long as you ignore most of what other people write. Otherwise you would have seen, that I do NOT use OP equipment and still am able to beat the content.
I have lvl 7 enchantments (and just for you have changed them to lvl 5 ones at the moment), only purple gear (including artifacts and artifact equipment) or worse and have some standard companions (did change my Stone to inactive and changed it for a Protection Angel). My former GS was 15k and it was not difficult to get it with F2P.
With that character I have no problems on the Sunken Shore, and even have no problems in Sharandar or Dread Ringt except Fomorians. Only IWD is a little problem for me, but I'm sure that will be solved as soon as I get some better equipment suited for the higher levels and get used to the new Powers.
Now, that it is (hopefully) clear, that it is NOT some unattainable equipment, how comes I have no problems? Right, it is because I use the RIGHT equipment. And I adapt. And when making a little mistake kills me in no time, I realize, that I need to change my approach.
Also it is not about "should / shouldn't be able to play" but of "wants to play the game as it is". If you do not want to play the game as it is (which includes adapting to new challenges) and was all the time, then perhaps it is not the right game for you.
And yes, there is middle ground. But it does not involve every content at every moment of the game. If you want to try the middle ground, that is ok for me. But then you won't be able to do everything the game has to offer.
I completely agree 120%.
I don't generally post on forums, as I don't always feel the need, but I feel I have to now.
Been playing for some months now I am 66 years of age a grandfather, and an OLD GIT, but hey I'm just a kid at heart.
Just fell in love with Neverwinter.
Played games from the time I had a Spectrum, to an Amiga, to a Commodore 64.
I belong to an online clan where all of us Oldies hang out, and just have fun, and that is what games are about.
Yea I know you don't want to hear my life story.
Once a game start's to lose the fun, and becomes a slog then it maybe time to walk away for a while, and find something new.Which I maybe doing seeing, as they they call this a "NEW MODULE", lets face it, as far as NEW is concerned where are the lvl 70 area's ??, it has all been revamped, and I for one do not want to go all through old content I have already done at 60.
My lvl 60 SW I have had to put on the shelf for the time being, as in dungeons I am getting through potions like no tomorrow trying to stay alive, "IF POSSIBLE", most time I'm dying like many others.
Not that i mind that, but when I start getting killed, by just wolves, or henchmen, and not the main boss then you have to start to ask yourself "WTH" have they done to the balance ??.
I just created a Paladin, and took it into a 3 man dungeon I was gobsmacked, as there were hardly any enemies, when it was a 5 team there was plenty with lots of fun, and more drops, but the fun has gone from it, and it has lost it's charm.
On my SW I was pleased to see that at that lvl 60 there was still plenty to do, and I was just getting into Dread Ring, and Shandara, sad to say I feel that has been ripped away from me like many other players.
I do not have a problem with a game being difficult never had, but the way that this has been done is silly.
As a whole I love MMO's, and FPS's. play Conan in single player, and see how far you get, it is a great game tough, but well balanced one slip and you die it is unforgiving, but the fun is there, and, so is the challenge.
One of my fav games
I can cast my mind back to when I played DD on a board with painted figure's 6 or 7 of us with with a good Dungeon Master, and all the books, we would be sat around a table rolling the dice, and just having fun playing the modules which would take day's, or sometimes week's to complete.
I do sometimes wonder if these games companies, as a whole really know what creature's, and hero's were used in the original game ?, so much has changed, and a lot for the bad, after all the Paladin is really a cleric
Maybe they should have done a Normal mode, and a Hard mode switch like some MMO's.
TBH I really hope they do make some really drastic changes soon, but I wont hold my breath companies rarely go back, but if they don't, i do know a lot of people, and close friend's will be walking away from such a beautiful game, and they have spent a fair bit of money on it, as I have, not to mention the amount of money they will start losing all because of "GREED".
I myself will wait, and see what does develop, "IF ANYTHING" ?.
"GL AND HAVE FUN".
They haven't been ripped away. You can still go there and complete quests. There's just a tad bit of...mortal danger. If you're having trouble, level up in the Elemental Evil areas and hunt for better gear. Or run with a buddy. Either way it's more interesting now.
I don't have perfect anything. Out of 7 characters that were level 60 before the patch, I had a total of maybe 15-20 rank 5 enchantments and the rest rank 4. Also only one of the enchantments that you need a coal ward for. And only one artifact per character at all, typically around level 42.
Yeah, it's harder than it was before. But that's a good thing, not a bad thing. If what you want is a game that mostly plays itself for you without any need for you to pay attention, you should look into some of the browser based junk out there.
Quaternion from the previous forum
When raising the level cap, there are basically two choices for what was formerly end-game content:
1) raise the level cap on it so that people who could do it immediately before the patch can't still do it immediately after, or
2) don't raise the level cap on it so that people quickly level past the point at which it makes sense to even look at it again.
If you don't like option (1), would you prefer option (2)? That's probably more of a case of ripping content away from people than option (1), as option (2) means that new players will never get to see that old content.
Quaternion from the previous forum
i want to see what u say when u will go in dungeons like valindra or castle never
if now 1 normal mob as redcap hit 20000-25000 dmg i wonder how much dmg can do last boss from dungeons
ppl will be down like moquito when its spraied
Or maybe they are simply resistant to change.
Also, there are still many poorly geared players (by module 5 standards) who are still attempting to kill dragons in well of dragons.
If you don't have a soulforged and can't survive more than 10 seconds against a dragon, then you hurting everyone else because there is a player limit in every instance and too much time is wasted on revives.
I see many players who wait the full 15 seconds to respawn, even though no one is near to revive.
Or everyone goes down and still there are many players who wait for a revive which will not happen.
If you go down next to a mob which can one-shot people, often it's better to instantly respawn, than lure another player to you who will also be instantly killed by the mob which is standing next to your body.
I see too much sloppy, lazy, selfish gameplay and that won't work anymore.
During dragon heralds in WoD, I always play my DC.
hallowed ground can give ~30% damage resistance.
break the spirit ~30-40% less damage from boss.
I don't know if all these damage resistances and damage debuff (on boss) stack, but I seem to survive dragon hits when using hallowed ground and/or break the spirit (my DC is lvl 60 righteous in draconic templar)
The trick to killing elite mob/boss is to either: control, tank/heal, debuff mob damage, increase player damage resistance, increase player HP, dodge, and so on.
Stop using your old favorite powers and switch to other powers which will increase survivability.
By the way, on my CW, I am Renegade (for party buff) mixed with oppressor.
Icy Veins feat for oppressor is incredibly good when used with icy terrain.
If you spec Master of Flame, then twisting immolation feat gives a long daze to mob when using furious immolation.
I agree 100%
I agree 0%
How do you propose implementing the difficulty slider? Same rewards, regardless of difficulty, in which case you punish people for turning up the difficulty? Or do you offer increased rewards for higher difficulty? If the latter, then some people will immediately go to max difficulty, fail, come here to complain that the game is too hard, and we'll be right back where we are now. That's not so different from what people are actually doing: attempting level 73 Icewind Dale at level 60, failing, and coming here to complain about how unfair it is that a level 60 in greens can't solo level 73 higher tier endgame content.
Quaternion from the previous forum