Most of the current CWs are among the worst controllers cause they focus more on dps.
Now bringing up the argument: "We are CONTROL wizards" and ask for more control is a bit hypocrisy.
@pando: From my experience GFs are stronger controllers than CWs. They have prone/stun chains you can hardly avoid, if not deflected. And deflect doesn't always save your *** except TRs.
Furthermore the attitude to ask for buffs for his own class to be competitive with other classes is far better than trying to nerf everything to the same poor unplayable level! My opinion. . .
Well gee. Maybe the reason why CWs don't go the Oppressor path is because Oppressor got nerfed within weeks of Mod 4 going live due to all the PVP whining.
CWs who go Oppressor gain a small bit more of control, which is then reduced even further by Tenacity and Deflect, but lose a very large amount of damage-dealing potential.
If an opponent breaks your CC very quick s(he) has a lot of deflection/control resist/deflection severity and you can't do much against it. Some HRs/TRs break freeze/choke in a split second or just don't get pushed back nor stunned by repel.
Exactly. The CW has enough CC, the problem is that in PvP it can get deflected at the moment, and it doesn't really make sense to me as to how you even deflect crowd control. Honestly, I main a trapper HR, and I can say that being able to deflect CC is bad for CWs, because if I get a lucky deflect, you're dead. If I don't, I'm dead. Not really the most entertaining gameplay. However I do have to disagree with the people saying that Trappers have as much or more CC then a CW. We don't. Roots are pretty much impossible to dodge yes, however they don't stop you from using your powers like a CW's CC does. All the HR can do, is stop you from moving, CWs stop you from responding at all, likewise with TR dazes.
Not per se. I've seen a lot of CWs in PvP that are obviously not oppressor specced. Most go for SS and expect their control to be awesome. Well it's not. It's not even adequate even in PvE (except for 2 skills). Chill strike barely freezes, even less if the target takes further damage while frozen. Entangle is pretty much useless unless it's on tab and even then it's not that good. It was said a while back in this thread, but I'll repeat it just the same so that people get it into their heads:
SS is not a fitting path for PvP if you want to control and unless you're maxed out, you don't stand a chance as a SS in PvP. Stop trying to solo everything and play like a team. Go oppressor, pick the strongest target and control him while the rest of the team (or just the TR if available) finishes him. The CW may not have been labelled a leader role, but a good team follows the lead of a (oppressor specced) CW in battle. He's the one giving the rest of his team easy targets to pick off. It's really astounding how this is clearly understood in low lvl PvP even by the newbies while it's completely ignored once people hit 60 and gain ego's.
Basically this.
How many CWs even build for control? Setting up CC-related features? Points to WIS? Control-boosting artifacts? I'm pretty much certain the absolute majority of CW builds are simply concentrated upon bursts, crits and its procs as a typical nuke build.
Now, in case of TRs the Scoundrel path was basically dedicated towards control, and had a system that clearly differentiated itself with other build paths a la crummy damage potential, centered upon 1vs1 situations much better than multi-engagements, etc etc. Now, admittedly, some of its supposed weaknesses were simply offset by certain broken OP <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> of features that all TRs shared, but at least system-wise it was initially set-up that way.
So IMO the CW's also need their build path/feats redesigned, where the corresponding feats for each of the three build paths introduce a sub-system of combat that more adequately represents the path. In case of TRs, the Sabo has its feats directly assisting stealth, the namesake of its main feature, while Scoundrels have a daze-inducing sub-system, and the Exec has a burst-assisting sub-system. In this aspect some classes like the CWs or GWFs, GFs basically have the "old-style" feat/path designs whereas HRs, TRs and DCs and the new SWs all have a "new-standard" way of path/feat design.
TL;DR -- if CWs want more control in game, they need the Oppressor path designed in the way how TR Scoundrels are designed -- sub-system/mechanics that is exclusive to the Opp. build path which gives it a distinct control-oriented combat mechanic and tactic, which loses out a LOT on damage but gains more powerful control. If what CW players want is noticeably high control effects on TOP of current BS proc/burst oriented mechanics, then I don't think that's ever gonna happen.
Besides, the way they gutted down TR Scoundrels in mod6 (while not doing much against the real culprits of cataclysmic failure of game balance...), the Scoundrels aren't CC-oriented in any way now.
The Glacial Movement feat is broken. It does not buff Orb of Imposition as stated.
The Shatter capstone feat was nerfed when all of chill was nerfed due to PVP crying after Mod 4 was released.
And the ultimate problem: What good is more control if most classes can break out of it on demand?
When a TR is in ITC, or a GWF is in Unstoppable, or a GF has Shield up, all of my CW's control powers are useless. But I can still inflict some damage on them. So why should I try harder to control them when I can damage them instead?
And that's not even going into control powers being Deflected.
The real culprit is all of these on-demand ways to break out of control.
The Glacial Movement feat is broken. It does not buff Orb of Imposition as stated.
The Shatter capstone feat was nerfed when all of chill was nerfed due to PVP crying after Mod 4 was released.
And the ultimate problem: What good is more control if most classes can break out of it on demand?
When a TR is in ITC, or a GWF is in Unstoppable, or a GF has Shield up, all of my CW's control powers are useless. But I can still inflict some damage on them. So why should I try harder to control them when I can damage them instead?
And that's not even going into control powers being Deflected.
The real culprit is all of these on-demand ways to break out of control.
if only my hr and sw had ways to break it. then i would completly agree with you.
Does nothing to break CC. Meditation's the one you're looking for, and that doesn't break it's just CC immmunity while you channel. Forest Ghost can prevent targeting however.
Apart from the bugs the tree has, yes. that's the idea. If you want to control. Thaum does not provide control, yet most CWs I see in PvP are thaum. There's nothing wrong with being a thaum if you're aiming for damage. But if you want control, oppressor is what you should be. Build for what you want from your character, but don't complain you don't get both damage and control at the same time.
I don't want high levels of damage and high levels of control at the same time. Of course any good CW should be able to do reasonable amounts of both. But right now, going for pure control is next to useless.
Here's the deal: if you are going to ask me to give up the awesome damage-dealing feats in Thaumaturge and Renegade, then redo the Oppressor feats to allow me to perma-control you. Because if anyone ought to be able to perma-control anyone, it's the CW. Of course perma-control ought to come only with me making no mistakes and you making a bunch of mistakes.
In this sense, it's really no different than Executioner TR's being able to one-shot people. They can only one-shot people if the targets are unaware or not paying attention. Same deal with CW's. Let my Oppressor CW be able to perma-control you if you are not paying attention. And let that be my defense against you.
TR's who spec Executioner can one-shot people while pretty much nobody else can. Why shouldn't CW's who spec Oppressor be able to perma-control people?
(Of course "perma-control" is a bit of misnomer anyway when there is so much on-demand CC breaking.)
want more CC sure
1st lets get ride of shield, reduce storm spell dmg and doesnt allow it to crit,remove healing and tonedown buffs from rene capstone
and then u can ask for more CC.
Rolf??? CW most of encounters have CC effect. Also CW have superb class feature stuffs. look to this image and tell me do CW really need more CC???
I think in mod 6 CW will be uber dps maker... It will be enough for CW to cast ICE terrain + storm pillar and close range classes have epic hard times..
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Rolf??? CW most of encounters have CC effect. Also CW have superb class feature stuffs. look to this image and tell me do CW really need more CC???
I think in mod 6 CW will be uber dps maker... It will be enough for CW to cast ICE terrain + storm pillar and no monsters will be able to get near CW...
Hmm, forgot to add line. that Close range players will have kinda hard days too if they face such CW in pvp.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Well gee. Maybe the reason why CWs don't go the Oppressor path is because Oppressor got nerfed within weeks of Mod 4 going live due to all the PVP whining.
CWs who go Oppressor gain a small bit more of control, which is then reduced even further by Tenacity and Deflect, but lose a very large amount of damage-dealing potential.
"Hey guys! We have been following the feedback and we wanted to let you guys know we are making a change to improve QoL for Control Wizards in PVP with Tenacity.
Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.
We wanted CW's to feel better about landing controls on targets, but didn't want to just widespread scale back the control resist people were getting because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target. ..."
The spesific toon has Vanguard banner arti.An arti that is obtainable only through PVP campaign.That means to me that this toon has seen some action in pvp.
17k power??? omg How much that toon will hit with Disintegrate?100k every 6 secs?
So, did anyone else notice that the OP's nick is "falseinfo" backwards? I suspect it explains a lot about the thread.
You're not alone. And I find it amusing that this has gone on for 6 pages. Not only is this a successful troll, but the mods seem completely blind to it as well.
Everyone (wizards) asks for more CC while you have insane DPS.
In my Humble opinion wizards are not much different from rogues. These 2 classes struggle to be the most broken or OP class in the game. Same like rogues, they have great survivability (shield and CC effects), insane DPS (despite being striker as a 2nd point) more than other strikers, and a great healing from a path that heals for 250 wpn damage every 0.5s; <- this healing is much better than virtuous (cleric) capstone. Why do u ask for more? i mean, guys be aware of this class, just as rogues, u dont want to admit how broken some feats, features and powers are and let that go, and instead u ask for more CC? It is selfish and unfair.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Lùthien deals 11267 (19371) Lightning Damage to you with Storm Spell.
CW definitely need buffs!
See that's the problem, you people keep dying before we can hold a mouse button down long enough to freeze you, so we aren't getting to CC you. And Ice Knife is even worse, what's the point of a prone on a player I just one shot?
You're not alone. And I find it amusing that this has gone on for 6 pages. Not only is this a successful troll, but the mods seem completely blind to it as well.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Apart from the bugs the tree has, yes. that's the idea. If you want to control. Thaum does not provide control, yet most CWs I see in PvP are thaum. There's nothing wrong with being a thaum if you're aiming for damage. But if you want control, oppressor is what you should be. Build for what you want from your character, but don't complain you don't get both damage and control at the same time.
As for your other question, when a certain player can't be controlled you should focus on something that can be controlled. You're the guy that picks the targets for your team. Can't target an unstoppable GWF? Wait those 10 seconds and assist in (minor) damage dealing or send your team after someone easier to kill. If done right that 1 GWF can't stop your entire team from killing his controlled team member. Sure, he may come after you instead, but that's the risk coming with the job of being a CW. In that case you're -like any other class- forced to drag him over to your team members so they can assist you quickly.
not to mention that unstoppable gwf can still be repelled
As a WK, I have no problems being CC'ed by a CW -- I am actually quite good at it. I have noticed that some CW seem to be far better at it than others, though, and I don't pretend to know the difference. The only class I find better at locking me down is a trapper HR and the best of them leave me fumbling through my logs trying to figure out just what the heck happened.
Comments
Well gee. Maybe the reason why CWs don't go the Oppressor path is because Oppressor got nerfed within weeks of Mod 4 going live due to all the PVP whining.
CWs who go Oppressor gain a small bit more of control, which is then reduced even further by Tenacity and Deflect, but lose a very large amount of damage-dealing potential.
Exactly. The CW has enough CC, the problem is that in PvP it can get deflected at the moment, and it doesn't really make sense to me as to how you even deflect crowd control. Honestly, I main a trapper HR, and I can say that being able to deflect CC is bad for CWs, because if I get a lucky deflect, you're dead. If I don't, I'm dead. Not really the most entertaining gameplay. However I do have to disagree with the people saying that Trappers have as much or more CC then a CW. We don't. Roots are pretty much impossible to dodge yes, however they don't stop you from using your powers like a CW's CC does. All the HR can do, is stop you from moving, CWs stop you from responding at all, likewise with TR dazes.
Complete:
- The Monk - http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?865991-The-Monk-A-Relatively-Detailed-Proposal-for-a-New-Class
Under Work:
- The Primal Totemist
- The Wild Sorcerer
- The Summoning Binder
Basically this.
How many CWs even build for control? Setting up CC-related features? Points to WIS? Control-boosting artifacts? I'm pretty much certain the absolute majority of CW builds are simply concentrated upon bursts, crits and its procs as a typical nuke build.
Now, in case of TRs the Scoundrel path was basically dedicated towards control, and had a system that clearly differentiated itself with other build paths a la crummy damage potential, centered upon 1vs1 situations much better than multi-engagements, etc etc. Now, admittedly, some of its supposed weaknesses were simply offset by certain broken OP <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> of features that all TRs shared, but at least system-wise it was initially set-up that way.
So IMO the CW's also need their build path/feats redesigned, where the corresponding feats for each of the three build paths introduce a sub-system of combat that more adequately represents the path. In case of TRs, the Sabo has its feats directly assisting stealth, the namesake of its main feature, while Scoundrels have a daze-inducing sub-system, and the Exec has a burst-assisting sub-system. In this aspect some classes like the CWs or GWFs, GFs basically have the "old-style" feat/path designs whereas HRs, TRs and DCs and the new SWs all have a "new-standard" way of path/feat design.
TL;DR -- if CWs want more control in game, they need the Oppressor path designed in the way how TR Scoundrels are designed -- sub-system/mechanics that is exclusive to the Opp. build path which gives it a distinct control-oriented combat mechanic and tactic, which loses out a LOT on damage but gains more powerful control. If what CW players want is noticeably high control effects on TOP of current BS proc/burst oriented mechanics, then I don't think that's ever gonna happen.
Besides, the way they gutted down TR Scoundrels in mod6 (while not doing much against the real culprits of cataclysmic failure of game balance...), the Scoundrels aren't CC-oriented in any way now.
The Glacial Movement feat is broken. It does not buff Orb of Imposition as stated.
The Shatter capstone feat was nerfed when all of chill was nerfed due to PVP crying after Mod 4 was released.
And the ultimate problem: What good is more control if most classes can break out of it on demand?
When a TR is in ITC, or a GWF is in Unstoppable, or a GF has Shield up, all of my CW's control powers are useless. But I can still inflict some damage on them. So why should I try harder to control them when I can damage them instead?
And that's not even going into control powers being Deflected.
The real culprit is all of these on-demand ways to break out of control.
if only my hr and sw had ways to break it. then i would completly agree with you.
Does nothing to break CC. Meditation's the one you're looking for, and that doesn't break it's just CC immmunity while you channel. Forest Ghost can prevent targeting however.
Complete:
- The Monk - http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?865991-The-Monk-A-Relatively-Detailed-Proposal-for-a-New-Class
Under Work:
- The Primal Totemist
- The Wild Sorcerer
- The Summoning Binder
I don't want high levels of damage and high levels of control at the same time. Of course any good CW should be able to do reasonable amounts of both. But right now, going for pure control is next to useless.
Here's the deal: if you are going to ask me to give up the awesome damage-dealing feats in Thaumaturge and Renegade, then redo the Oppressor feats to allow me to perma-control you. Because if anyone ought to be able to perma-control anyone, it's the CW. Of course perma-control ought to come only with me making no mistakes and you making a bunch of mistakes.
In this sense, it's really no different than Executioner TR's being able to one-shot people. They can only one-shot people if the targets are unaware or not paying attention. Same deal with CW's. Let my Oppressor CW be able to perma-control you if you are not paying attention. And let that be my defense against you.
TR's who spec Executioner can one-shot people while pretty much nobody else can. Why shouldn't CW's who spec Oppressor be able to perma-control people?
(Of course "perma-control" is a bit of misnomer anyway when there is so much on-demand CC breaking.)
Rolf??? CW most of encounters have CC effect. Also CW have superb class feature stuffs. look to this image and tell me do CW really need more CC???
I think in mod 6 CW will be uber dps maker... It will be enough for CW to cast ICE terrain + storm pillar and close range classes have epic hard times..
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
This is a PVP forum, please leave
>>>
Hmm, forgot to add line. that Close range players will have kinda hard days too if they face such CW in pvp.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
^^^^
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?582751-Cryptic-OFFICIAL-Tenacity-Feedback-Thread/page37
"Hey guys! We have been following the feedback and we wanted to let you guys know we are making a change to improve QoL for Control Wizards in PVP with Tenacity.
Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.
We wanted CW's to feel better about landing controls on targets, but didn't want to just widespread scale back the control resist people were getting because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target. ..."
The spesific toon has Vanguard banner arti.An arti that is obtainable only through PVP campaign.That means to me that this toon has seen some action in pvp.
17k power??? omg
You're not alone. And I find it amusing that this has gone on for 6 pages. Not only is this a successful troll, but the mods seem completely blind to it as well.
In my Humble opinion wizards are not much different from rogues. These 2 classes struggle to be the most broken or OP class in the game. Same like rogues, they have great survivability (shield and CC effects), insane DPS (despite being striker as a 2nd point) more than other strikers, and a great healing from a path that heals for 250 wpn damage every 0.5s; <- this healing is much better than virtuous (cleric) capstone. Why do u ask for more? i mean, guys be aware of this class, just as rogues, u dont want to admit how broken some feats, features and powers are and let that go, and instead u ask for more CC? It is selfish and unfair.
See that's the problem, you people keep dying before we can hold a mouse button down long enough to freeze you, so we aren't getting to CC you. And Ice Knife is even worse, what's the point of a prone on a player I just one shot?
had 22k proc once
WTB Class Reroll please
not to mention that unstoppable gwf can still be repelled