Piercing damage, proccing stupid damage, all an attempt by the devs to give the people with no skill a chance to compete against people that can actually play without that garbage. Problem is, nobody actually wants to play they just want to be number one on the Paingiver or PVP leaderboard which with money and of course the the cheese trees that every class has to accomodate can accomplish. Making it a race for money, without piercing damage and proccing damage, even 29k toon can do **** if their timing and reaction time suck. But you have do something for the 25k GWF that spent over $1000 on his toon, just let him wave his sword in a circle, no need to aim and deal massive damage, or use ray of frost that does not do major damage, but just wait for a 15k tick from SS. Or BB someone with your tr, never even hit them, then watch them die is as the run away.
The devs are smarter then you think. They know, most people suck at this game, hell they probably suck at this game. But if you spend a $1000 on a toon, they new things would not go well. People would complain about spending so much money and getting slaughtered in pvp by a free toon that is handled by a skilled players.
This will not changed, their will be piercing damage and more proccing from items in the future. They know that people with no school and alot of money are their targets. If you were good, your free toon would smash even the most expensive if you took away all the auto dps garbage. It's phycological if someone is spending so much money in a video game to be on top, that say's alot of them in real life (Pathetic) but those are the customers they exploit.
So have I played scoundrel pretty much the whole of mod 5. For the new mod I respeced to MI sab. I can see why people complain about tr's. That is definitely the most cheese build of any toon in this game. I've been in fights with my sab that are just stupid. My first fight, still used to scoundrel. I was jumping around and dodging, my normal tactic when I was scoundrel to get the enemy to use their encounters and what not, I normally attack sporadically to keep them from getting to eager then bam, they died from I don't know what. I never even landed a solid hit yet the piercing damage killed him I guess.
That was the most un-enjoyable fight I've ever been in, I didn't even really aim, use timing or anything before he died. Why in the world someone would want to play that way, unless it's just to get top on the leaderboard. I have another TR 12k, I speced him into sab also to see the difference between him and my 17.3k tr (I have 12 characters, one or two of every class). Really, if you don't get over excited, you could easily have high KDA ratio. I could probably show my brother who is 8 how to get play the cheese build and he could probably make it page 1 (He sucks at video games but the sab MI tr, or sab in general was obviously for the people with now skill and alot of money).
If I had 22k+ gs, money would be what killed the enemy, because I can just run and jump around randomly smashing buttons, not really important if I get a solid hit or not, enough button smashing and the piercing damage will kill my opponent. My normal combo on scoundrel is deft strike, dazing strike, and then duelist furry, I pretty much canceled out my feats with dazing strike cause it's more effective to use immediately behind. My sab, same rotation, dazes for the same time but now I could do it all invisible with stupid damage being proced.
For me, if they scoundrel is really gone to the crapper because people most definitely were whining about the wrong tree, they wanted nerfed the tree that actually to skill and now the only viable builds are the 2 cheese trees. For at least a month, my sab is going on a murder spree before I retire him. For me, nodes will not exist, my only mission will be slaughter everyone with COS and Glooming Cut. I will be sure hunt the ones that say a single word about a tr in the pvp match. My mission will be solely to HAMSTER everyone off and have nightmares of the constant sound they will hear ringing in pvp of glooming cut because the one class and build that was actually fun to play that took some skill and timing got nerfed in place of the cheese trees. Oh how they will cry in pvp.
Similar to your situation, I did a respec of my WK scoundrel into a WK sab a day or two ago to prepare for the scoundrel nerf and practice for mod 6. I did not feat KE since it is bugged. I encountered pretty much the same experience you did, being used to the scoundrel play and reacting poorly as a sab I had a much easier time all in all killing targets and I stayed in a much safer situation as well. I also had enemy deaths surprise me compared to what was required from the scoundrel.
I did notice a lot of bugs with the sab too, sometimes LB/blitz/etc would drop stealth and sometimes I would stay fully stealthed after using them.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I did notice a lot of bugs with the sab too, sometimes LB/blitz/etc would drop stealth and sometimes I would stay fully stealthed after using them.
Capstone ?
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tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited March 2015
I also had enemy deaths surprise me compared to what was required from the scoundrel.
Scoundrel has always been the weakest tree, that is not new. What is new is that it will dissapear instead of being the challenging PvP build.
For my concern, it would be better if they replace it with something else. Perma-dase is not efficient in PvE and have been nerfed to the ground in PvP, so, what is the use ?
Scoundrel has always been the weakest tree, that is not new. What is new is that it will dissapear instead of being the challenging PvP build.
For my concern, it would be better if they replace it with something else. Perma-dase is not efficient in PvE and have been nerfed to the ground in PvP, so, what is the use ?
I never could manage anything like a perma daze with my scoundrel. I could get some long dazes sometimes (6 seconds or more) and then sometimes followup with a dazing strike for another 4 seconds. Often during such times in PvP I was not managing to do all that much during the daze unless I switched to CoS as people tend to know to be evasive but sometimes they would stand still and let me unload.
Yeah as fun as the scoundrel was it was weak in general in damage compared to many other strikers.. I am delighted on the Saboteur to now be able to do more single target damage than CW's and to best Damage DC's in total damage as well. I could not manage that as a scoundrel unless they were a lot lower than me in GS and even then on bosses I would often not have their single target damage.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I assume it is the capstone, but I thought one was still supposed to drop stealth when using powers that drop it and not stay in stealth?
The sabo capstone will replenish stealth immediately on encounter use, so you use encounter, it crits and drops stealth, and the capstone will immediately replenish it and begin the 15 seconds CD (15 iirc). This is how it is supposed to work, and not a bug.
The sabo capstone will replenish stealth immediately on encounter use, so you use encounter, it crits and drops stealth, and the capstone will immediately replenish it and begin the 15 seconds CD (15 iirc). This is how it is supposed to work, and not a bug.
Except in my case it isn't dropping stealth. I am in stealth, I use an encounter power, stealth never drops and it refills to full while I am still in stealth.
SoD still not working with anything but encounters.
Also several encounters dont trigger SoD like smoke bomb and path of blades.
So the feat paths are down to one for the TR.
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tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited March 2015
I never could manage anything like a perma daze with my scoundrel
In PvP, but in PvE, scoundrel was perma-daze... except that, nowadays, most mobs are resistant to control...
SoD still not working with anything but encounters.
Also several encounters dont trigger SoD like smoke bomb and path of blades.
So the feat paths are down to one for the TR.
I've decided to stop PvP because I dislike perma-stealth builds. But it looks like I will need to re-spec as a saboteur, even for my now PvE-centric build. That is stupid.
In PvP, but in PvE, scoundrel was perma-daze... except that, nowadays, most mobs are resistant to control...
...
I can perma daze in PvE with any path of TR, although I find the saboteur to be the easiest path to do this with.
As others have said I also am also changing to saboteur from a scoundrel. With the increase in control resistant/immune targets, the scoundrel with its very low damage (for a striker) seems to be disadvantaged in PvE and in PvP with it now being the worst dazer of all three trees (except for its random short daze) I don't see that I have much of a choice.
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tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited March 2015
I've spend this morning on a simple test :
same mobs, fighted multiple time as a MI sab, a MI exec, a WK exec and a WK scoundrel.
-WK scondrel : same as live : not efficient
-WK exec : still less powerful than MI exec, but it work. In PvE, tha at-will and encounters do not worth any point, same for passives
-MI exec : work efficiently. at-will and encounter are useless, but 1 passive clearly help (movement speed+crit+deviation). Use about 2/3 potions per mobs rotation => around 10 per hours (yes I was killing half of the area)
-MI sab : longest stealth time is 1,5mn, ended because I needed to AFK. Average damage is 15000 per at-will (not well equipped, + removed enchants and cat for more challenge). In one hour Iv'e used 1 potion because of a GWF deciding to fight with me (I've received hits destined to him).
MI sab = no challenge, no tactic, need for 1 at-will and 2 encounters at max, can solo epic encounter more easily than a mod3 perma-stealth TR. It does similar damage to Exec, spend his live in stealth, immune to most mobs...
I will not go sab because I prefer to have fun, instead of being the best, but that is clearly not what should happen here.
Remember me of the old exec witch was perm-stealth. Now, it is the new sab with is a DPS...
Sad...
I can perma daze in PvE with any path of TR, although I find the saboteur to be the easiest path to do this with.
Yes, you can perma daze with others, but it's less efficient and allow only one power-rotation.
Knife's edge is STILL resetting cooldowns, making this class completely easy mode and lazy.
FEEDBACK:
Piercing Damage needs to be transformed into physical ASAP
Cloud of Steel needs its charged version back, because right now, all a TR (Saboteur) has to do is to hit tab, and spam left click, and most enemies drop dead in about 5 to 10 seconds, except Guardian Fighters and Control Wizards.
Beta player
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
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tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited March 2015
Knife's edge is STILL resetting cooldowns, making this class completely easy mode and lazy.
We have informed cryptic of this glitch right after the realize, and spammed them since then. Do you really think that raging one more time will help ?
Piercing Damage needs to be transformed into physical ASAP
Nope, physical will induce such limited effect that it would make those feats useless. Piercing damage isn't viable, for any class, but simply replacing them by regular damage will not work, especially with the new mod.
Cloud of Steel needs its charged version back, because right now, all a TR (Saboteur) has to do is to hit tab, and spam left click, and most enemies drop dead in about 5 to 10 seconds, except Guardian Fighters and Control Wizards.
The problem is not cloud of steel. The problem is the saboteur. We were telling it. No one have listen and they blamed the bad thing. That is why cryptic have nerfed the scoundrel.
So please, stop asking for nerf and start thinking on long-term solutions.
By the way, why do I get the felling that you've just been crushed by a TR (probably a saboteur) and feel the urge to cry for nerf ?
If not, at least, it looks to be...
This solve nothing. You can't balance somehing on deny and hate. If you really want to balance something, you need to pose yourself, be sure that you have a nearly perfect understanding of the all situation from every point of view, and then ypou can plan efficient suggestions.
Knife's edge is STILL resetting cooldowns, making this class completely easy mode and lazy.
FEEDBACK:
Piercing Damage needs to be transformed into physical ASAP
Cloud of Steel needs its charged version back, because right now, all a TR (Saboteur) has to do is to hit tab, and spam left click, and most enemies drop dead in about 5 to 10 seconds, except Guardian Fighters and Control Wizards.
1) Knife's Edge needs to be fixed ASAP! This is completely game breaking...
2) Piercing Damage should stay "Piercing Damage" HOWEVER!!!! INSTEAD of Bypassing ALL DR, Piercing damage INSTEAD attacks with +100% Armor Penetration.
- This STILL makes it strong but allows tenacity/deflect to play a role (which currently they dont).
This needs to include ALL sources of piercing damage (Shocking Exec, Shadowy Opp, Piercing blades (HR feat - but should be buffed from 40% -> 50%)).
tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited March 2015
You kids should stop using the verb "cry" to describe any and all feedback not working in your main class' favor. There is a very clear indication when someone is "crying" and the above post from joocycuzzzzzz does not qualify
When someone complain again for the same thing that we have already stated, that is useless. Developers know what happen, there is no use in spamming again and again.
By the way, be informed that I've always been against the actual TR, witch make a major part of your suggestion unappropriated. I just don't want to experiment a new years in the abyss, like the last one. That is why when something isn't adapted, I give my opinion.
The plan is very simple: Fix Knife's Edge. That will make high-end TRs much easier to kill, which is what everyone wants. Then the skillful TRs will still prosper, while all the ones exploiting easy mode will wither and die.
This is needed, but not enought by itself, sadly. There is other features that would need some attention. It is a required bug fix, and we have been asking for since Mod5 had reached the live. This is not a plan.
Knife's edge is STILL resetting cooldowns, making this class completely easy mode and lazy.
FEEDBACK:
Piercing Damage needs to be transformed into physical ASAP
Cloud of Steel needs its charged version back, because right now, all a TR (Saboteur) has to do is to hit tab, and spam left click, and most enemies drop dead in about 5 to 10 seconds, except Guardian Fighters and Control Wizards.
We are waiting full four months for that fix. Its kinda LOL.
18 year old diablo1 has better bug fixing than this game...
We are waiting full four months for that fix. Its kinda LOL.
18 year old diablo1 has better bug fixing than this game...
If Knife's Edge was fixed. And if they made it so ITC no longer BROKE CC - meaning you have to use it preemptively, TR would be in a pretty good spot actually.
High damage, High mobility, moderate control, moderate survivability.
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tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited March 2015
If Knife's Edge was fixed
It is needed. What can we do now, exept wayt for the devs to patch it ?
made it so ITC no longer BROKE CC
No. the actual ITC have no use. Else they rework it completely, else they remove it.
But the concept of an hability to break CC is not out of place on a TR. Rogue are not warrior, and even less honorable opponents. If an ability seams strange, then, in some way, it correspond to the rogue.
Just an idea for a rework that might keep it efficient in PvP wile not being this stupid trolling ability that we actually see in game. At the same time, it will became useful again in PvE, especially with the incoming mod6.
-on activation, it free you from CC. It do not give immunity anymore, just a CC break, or at max a 1/1,5s immunity.
then, it give different buff in PvE and PvP.
out of stealth :
-PvP : nothing more than a CC break.
-PvE : 100% deviation chance for 1 or 2s (can't tell just on a paper concept) +1s per level
from steath :
-PvP : 100% deviation chance for 1 or 2s , +1s per level
-PvE : 100% damage resistance for 1 or 2s + 1s per level.
Why giving back the damage immunity in PvE and not in PvP ? Because it is too OP considering how PvP work. About PvE, of course, some n**bs will want to use only to keep hitting the boss all the time (I don't mean it should never be done, I just mean that other applications exist and should be used by any good TR player), but I have more concern about the amount of damage that will affect the all party. Back to mod 2, most TR around me were using ITC to survive hard fights, but also to save their teammates' live.
Ok guy, you've just been killed in the middle of an AoE, but that do not mean you should free your soul yet. Let me use ITC to resurect you. As soon as you can move, we both dodge to avoid a second death. Maybe we will need the DC to heal you, but, at least, you have a chance to stay alive
That is why I think that bringing back this bonus would still be useful, as PvE player do not care about the CC immunity (mostly the cc breack, and not really often) but only about the damage immunity. The actual damage reduction do not help.
This way, ITC would be nerfed in PvP, while still being a useful and quite disturbing hability (rogue are evasive), and at the same time, it is (again) an efficient support ability for PvE.
THis will not fix TR by itself, but it can be a part of the solution.
No. the actual ITC have no use. Else they rework it completely, else they remove it.
But the concept of an hability to break CC is not out of place on a TR. Rogue are not warrior, and even less honorable opponents. If an ability seams strange, then, in some way, it correspond to the rogue.
Just an idea for a rework that might keep it efficient in PvP wile not being this stupid trolling ability that we actually see in game. At the same time, it will became useful again in PvE, especially with the incoming mod6.
Initially ITC did NOT break CC it only made you immune to CC once active. So it would still retain that benefit. So ITC would just instead:
Impossible to Catch"
*REMOVED CC BREAK* For Several seconds your deflect attacks and are immune to control effects.
Stealth Bonus: Become untouchable dodging attacks and 50% increased DR.
Since the new rank 4 will add another second to it, itll still be very powerful. I wouldnt even be opposed to adding ANOTHER second onto the BASE duration, thus it would be a much longer potential effect however unable to BREAK CC.
This would completely change the TR playstyle since they cant just escape out of ANY situation. Stealth should be used as an offensive or utility tool, not something you can easily just "ITC->Dodge Roll -> restealth and hide"
Forcing the TR to play PRE-EMPTIVELY makes all the difference in the world. Now they are in fear of getting controlled so they are forced to play around that.
By the way, why do I get the felling that you've just been crushed by a TR (probably a saboteur) and feel the urge to cry for nerf ?
If not, at least, it looks to be...
This solve nothing. You can't balance somehing on deny and hate. If you really want to balance something, you need to pose yourself, be sure that you have a nearly perfect understanding of the all situation from every point of view, and then ypou can plan efficient suggestions.
Nice assumption PVE boy, but you're wrong.
The number of Sabotuers that can defeat me can be counted with my right hand.
I'm just supporting our Tanks that have to deal with this Piercing BS.
Beta player
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
what a miserable thread this has turned out to be..
Bedlam: Creating chaos as a MI Exec TR Avariel Merilwen: Burn baby, MoF/Rene Aejun The Silver: Devoted to Healing, DevOP/Justice Mina Rosepetal: Super Natural, Pathfinder/Melee Frost: Benchwarmer, Soulbinder/Fury
The number of Sabotuers that can defeat me can be counted with my right hand.
I'm just supporting our Tanks that have to deal with this Piercing BS.
The only reason I would see to make CoS have charges again would be because of Shadowy Opp. Sabo TRs ist just such a cheesy feat. TR goes into stealth, CoS spams for 3-4k dagger hits that bypasses my DR? Ive literally gone from 100->50% just from a few CoS daggers that I cant avoid, sprint, unstoppable to mitigate the damage.
It doesnt even make sense either because it wasnt piercing damage as a % of damage that was already mitigated by DR. It would be one thing if it dealt 75% of post-DR damage as piercing because then thats atleast mitigatable to some extent by DR. When its just 75% of weapon damage. Thats where the issue lies.
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tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited April 2015
Stealth should be used as an offensive or utility tool
That is where you are wrong. IN most game, stealth is basically a tool designed to increase the rogue's ability to survive.
The fact that we always need it for efficient damage, survival, etc is one of the reason that make TR hard to balance.
Only assassins convert this mostly defensive ability (the only way it is offensive is that it allow you to hit first) into a way to strongly increase his damage, and only because assassin have no other objective than kill you in 1 power rotation.
The problem is that the ONLY thing that assassins should improve is their damage. Actually, no TR can be efficient if it do not use stealth to improve our damage. In Neverwinter, stealth is firstly designed to deal damage, and that is where the problem came from. We do not play a rogue, we play an Assassin with mechanics stealed from others rogue variations (long stealth that easely replenish, resistance...)
About ITC, have you read my last sentence ?
THis will not fix TR by itself, but it can be a part of the solution
By those words, I mean that others things should be needed, like reworking survival feats.
If the only out-of-stealth use of ITC in PvP is the CC break, then less TR will slot it, and those who slot it will need to chose : do they want to improve their deviation for the incoming fight ? Or be able to free them-self if they are catch and try to leave. Or maybe they prefer an other damage/control encounter ?
The objective of my suggestion is to keep the power efficient in different situation without making it a must have. If we follow your path, then it is still a must have for PvP and a must-forget in PvE. You have balanced for... nothing.
I think that a basic TR should lack of survival (that is not what happen here) but receive access to "tools" that improve it's survival in unusual ways. I don't want TR to spend half of his time surviving to damage (that is what warrior are here for), I want him to be easy to kill if you catch him, but hard to catch. It is not a warrior and should not get easy access to DR.
Well... Anyway, my ideas are to complex to be summed-up in a few sentences.
The major issue in this discussion look to be that you want all classes to be the same in order to be balanced while I want every classes to be unique and balanced. The actual ITC is a tiny-unstoppable, witch mean that it is a tiny-warrior ability. Warrior ability have nothing to do in TR's encounter list.
Sabo TRs ist just such a cheesy feat
+1
if TR go for stealth, they should get stealth, and maybe some support hability, but not became one of the best damage-dealer of the game. Saboteur feats are mostly game-breaking.
joocycuzzzzzz =>
I wasn't meaning you in particular, and I don't care if it is you or someone else. You post on the topic things that have been stated multiple time, that everyone know, and without consideration for past discussions.
This is not really constructive, and for my personal though, when someone act this way, it don't look like a well planed post, but rather some rage-post. If it was not, then it is fine, but remain useless.
I am not trying to say that TR is fine and should stay as it is. I say that you don't help, even if you are not wrong.
PvE boy ?
I don't know if you've read it, but some times ago, I've admitted that class unbalance was one of the major reason for me to stay out of PvP, after being quite active in the past. So, what is the use of this "nickname" ?
The fact that I am a "PvE boy" actually mean that we share partially similar visions, so, it is not really relevant.:cool:
The only reason I would see to make CoS have charges again would be because of Shadowy Opp. Sabo TRs ist just such a cheesy feat. TR goes into stealth, CoS spams for 3-4k dagger hits that bypasses my DR? Ive literally gone from 100->50% just from a few CoS daggers that I cant avoid, sprint, unstoppable to mitigate the damage.
It doesnt even make sense either because it wasnt piercing damage as a % of damage that was already mitigated by DR. It would be one thing if it dealt 75% of post-DR damage as piercing because then thats atleast mitigatable to some extent by DR. When its just 75% of weapon damage. Thats where the issue lies.
I've been waiting for this complaint to crop up.
Let me get my popcorn.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
Comments
The devs are smarter then you think. They know, most people suck at this game, hell they probably suck at this game. But if you spend a $1000 on a toon, they new things would not go well. People would complain about spending so much money and getting slaughtered in pvp by a free toon that is handled by a skilled players.
This will not changed, their will be piercing damage and more proccing from items in the future. They know that people with no school and alot of money are their targets. If you were good, your free toon would smash even the most expensive if you took away all the auto dps garbage. It's phycological if someone is spending so much money in a video game to be on top, that say's alot of them in real life (Pathetic) but those are the customers they exploit.
Similar to your situation, I did a respec of my WK scoundrel into a WK sab a day or two ago to prepare for the scoundrel nerf and practice for mod 6. I did not feat KE since it is bugged. I encountered pretty much the same experience you did, being used to the scoundrel play and reacting poorly as a sab I had a much easier time all in all killing targets and I stayed in a much safer situation as well. I also had enemy deaths surprise me compared to what was required from the scoundrel.
I did notice a lot of bugs with the sab too, sometimes LB/blitz/etc would drop stealth and sometimes I would stay fully stealthed after using them.
Capstone ?
For my concern, it would be better if they replace it with something else. Perma-dase is not efficient in PvE and have been nerfed to the ground in PvP, so, what is the use ?
I assume it is the capstone, but I thought one was still supposed to drop stealth when using powers that drop it and not stay in stealth?
I never could manage anything like a perma daze with my scoundrel. I could get some long dazes sometimes (6 seconds or more) and then sometimes followup with a dazing strike for another 4 seconds. Often during such times in PvP I was not managing to do all that much during the daze unless I switched to CoS as people tend to know to be evasive but sometimes they would stand still and let me unload.
Yeah as fun as the scoundrel was it was weak in general in damage compared to many other strikers.. I am delighted on the Saboteur to now be able to do more single target damage than CW's and to best Damage DC's in total damage as well. I could not manage that as a scoundrel unless they were a lot lower than me in GS and even then on bosses I would often not have their single target damage.
The sabo capstone will replenish stealth immediately on encounter use, so you use encounter, it crits and drops stealth, and the capstone will immediately replenish it and begin the 15 seconds CD (15 iirc). This is how it is supposed to work, and not a bug.
Except in my case it isn't dropping stealth. I am in stealth, I use an encounter power, stealth never drops and it refills to full while I am still in stealth.
Also several encounters dont trigger SoD like smoke bomb and path of blades.
So the feat paths are down to one for the TR.
I've decided to stop PvP because I dislike perma-stealth builds. But it looks like I will need to re-spec as a saboteur, even for my now PvE-centric build. That is stupid.
I can perma daze in PvE with any path of TR, although I find the saboteur to be the easiest path to do this with.
As others have said I also am also changing to saboteur from a scoundrel. With the increase in control resistant/immune targets, the scoundrel with its very low damage (for a striker) seems to be disadvantaged in PvE and in PvP with it now being the worst dazer of all three trees (except for its random short daze) I don't see that I have much of a choice.
same mobs, fighted multiple time as a MI sab, a MI exec, a WK exec and a WK scoundrel.
-WK scondrel : same as live : not efficient
-WK exec : still less powerful than MI exec, but it work. In PvE, tha at-will and encounters do not worth any point, same for passives
-MI exec : work efficiently. at-will and encounter are useless, but 1 passive clearly help (movement speed+crit+deviation). Use about 2/3 potions per mobs rotation => around 10 per hours (yes I was killing half of the area)
-MI sab : longest stealth time is 1,5mn, ended because I needed to AFK. Average damage is 15000 per at-will (not well equipped, + removed enchants and cat for more challenge). In one hour Iv'e used 1 potion because of a GWF deciding to fight with me (I've received hits destined to him).
MI sab = no challenge, no tactic, need for 1 at-will and 2 encounters at max, can solo epic encounter more easily than a mod3 perma-stealth TR. It does similar damage to Exec, spend his live in stealth, immune to most mobs...
I will not go sab because I prefer to have fun, instead of being the best, but that is clearly not what should happen here.
Remember me of the old exec witch was perm-stealth. Now, it is the new sab with is a DPS...
Sad...
Yes, you can perma daze with others, but it's less efficient and allow only one power-rotation.
Knife's edge is STILL resetting cooldowns, making this class completely easy mode and lazy.
FEEDBACK:
Piercing Damage needs to be transformed into physical ASAP
Cloud of Steel needs its charged version back, because right now, all a TR (Saboteur) has to do is to hit tab, and spam left click, and most enemies drop dead in about 5 to 10 seconds, except Guardian Fighters and Control Wizards.
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
We have informed cryptic of this glitch right after the realize, and spammed them since then. Do you really think that raging one more time will help ?
Nope, physical will induce such limited effect that it would make those feats useless. Piercing damage isn't viable, for any class, but simply replacing them by regular damage will not work, especially with the new mod.
The problem is not cloud of steel. The problem is the saboteur. We were telling it. No one have listen and they blamed the bad thing. That is why cryptic have nerfed the scoundrel.
So please, stop asking for nerf and start thinking on long-term solutions.
By the way, why do I get the felling that you've just been crushed by a TR (probably a saboteur) and feel the urge to cry for nerf ?
If not, at least, it looks to be...
This solve nothing. You can't balance somehing on deny and hate. If you really want to balance something, you need to pose yourself, be sure that you have a nearly perfect understanding of the all situation from every point of view, and then ypou can plan efficient suggestions.
1) Knife's Edge needs to be fixed ASAP! This is completely game breaking...
2) Piercing Damage should stay "Piercing Damage" HOWEVER!!!! INSTEAD of Bypassing ALL DR, Piercing damage INSTEAD attacks with +100% Armor Penetration.
- This STILL makes it strong but allows tenacity/deflect to play a role (which currently they dont).
This needs to include ALL sources of piercing damage (Shocking Exec, Shadowy Opp, Piercing blades (HR feat - but should be buffed from 40% -> 50%)).
By the way, be informed that I've always been against the actual TR, witch make a major part of your suggestion unappropriated. I just don't want to experiment a new years in the abyss, like the last one. That is why when something isn't adapted, I give my opinion.
This is needed, but not enought by itself, sadly. There is other features that would need some attention. It is a required bug fix, and we have been asking for since Mod5 had reached the live. This is not a plan.
We are waiting full four months for that fix. Its kinda LOL.
18 year old diablo1 has better bug fixing than this game...
If Knife's Edge was fixed. And if they made it so ITC no longer BROKE CC - meaning you have to use it preemptively, TR would be in a pretty good spot actually.
High damage, High mobility, moderate control, moderate survivability.
No. the actual ITC have no use. Else they rework it completely, else they remove it.
But the concept of an hability to break CC is not out of place on a TR. Rogue are not warrior, and even less honorable opponents. If an ability seams strange, then, in some way, it correspond to the rogue.
Just an idea for a rework that might keep it efficient in PvP wile not being this stupid trolling ability that we actually see in game. At the same time, it will became useful again in PvE, especially with the incoming mod6.
-on activation, it free you from CC. It do not give immunity anymore, just a CC break, or at max a 1/1,5s immunity.
then, it give different buff in PvE and PvP.
out of stealth :
-PvP : nothing more than a CC break.
-PvE : 100% deviation chance for 1 or 2s (can't tell just on a paper concept) +1s per level
from steath :
-PvP : 100% deviation chance for 1 or 2s , +1s per level
-PvE : 100% damage resistance for 1 or 2s + 1s per level.
Why giving back the damage immunity in PvE and not in PvP ? Because it is too OP considering how PvP work. About PvE, of course, some n**bs will want to use only to keep hitting the boss all the time (I don't mean it should never be done, I just mean that other applications exist and should be used by any good TR player), but I have more concern about the amount of damage that will affect the all party. Back to mod 2, most TR around me were using ITC to survive hard fights, but also to save their teammates' live. That is why I think that bringing back this bonus would still be useful, as PvE player do not care about the CC immunity (mostly the cc breack, and not really often) but only about the damage immunity. The actual damage reduction do not help.
This way, ITC would be nerfed in PvP, while still being a useful and quite disturbing hability (rogue are evasive), and at the same time, it is (again) an efficient support ability for PvE.
THis will not fix TR by itself, but it can be a part of the solution.
Initially ITC did NOT break CC it only made you immune to CC once active. So it would still retain that benefit. So ITC would just instead:
Impossible to Catch"
*REMOVED CC BREAK* For Several seconds your deflect attacks and are immune to control effects.
Stealth Bonus: Become untouchable dodging attacks and 50% increased DR.
Since the new rank 4 will add another second to it, itll still be very powerful. I wouldnt even be opposed to adding ANOTHER second onto the BASE duration, thus it would be a much longer potential effect however unable to BREAK CC.
This would completely change the TR playstyle since they cant just escape out of ANY situation. Stealth should be used as an offensive or utility tool, not something you can easily just "ITC->Dodge Roll -> restealth and hide"
Forcing the TR to play PRE-EMPTIVELY makes all the difference in the world. Now they are in fear of getting controlled so they are forced to play around that.
Nice assumption PVE boy, but you're wrong.
The number of Sabotuers that can defeat me can be counted with my right hand.
I'm just supporting our Tanks that have to deal with this Piercing BS.
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
Avariel Merilwen: Burn baby, MoF/Rene
Aejun The Silver: Devoted to Healing, DevOP/Justice
Mina Rosepetal: Super Natural, Pathfinder/Melee
Frost: Benchwarmer, Soulbinder/Fury
Plot twist, he has far more fingers on each hand than what is considered normal. haha.
Then again having extra fingers could help with gameplay....
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
The only reason I would see to make CoS have charges again would be because of Shadowy Opp. Sabo TRs ist just such a cheesy feat. TR goes into stealth, CoS spams for 3-4k dagger hits that bypasses my DR? Ive literally gone from 100->50% just from a few CoS daggers that I cant avoid, sprint, unstoppable to mitigate the damage.
It doesnt even make sense either because it wasnt piercing damage as a % of damage that was already mitigated by DR. It would be one thing if it dealt 75% of post-DR damage as piercing because then thats atleast mitigatable to some extent by DR. When its just 75% of weapon damage. Thats where the issue lies.
The fact that we always need it for efficient damage, survival, etc is one of the reason that make TR hard to balance.
Only assassins convert this mostly defensive ability (the only way it is offensive is that it allow you to hit first) into a way to strongly increase his damage, and only because assassin have no other objective than kill you in 1 power rotation.
The problem is that the ONLY thing that assassins should improve is their damage. Actually, no TR can be efficient if it do not use stealth to improve our damage. In Neverwinter, stealth is firstly designed to deal damage, and that is where the problem came from. We do not play a rogue, we play an Assassin with mechanics stealed from others rogue variations (long stealth that easely replenish, resistance...)
About ITC, have you read my last sentence ? By those words, I mean that others things should be needed, like reworking survival feats.
If the only out-of-stealth use of ITC in PvP is the CC break, then less TR will slot it, and those who slot it will need to chose : do they want to improve their deviation for the incoming fight ? Or be able to free them-self if they are catch and try to leave. Or maybe they prefer an other damage/control encounter ?
The objective of my suggestion is to keep the power efficient in different situation without making it a must have. If we follow your path, then it is still a must have for PvP and a must-forget in PvE. You have balanced for... nothing.
I think that a basic TR should lack of survival (that is not what happen here) but receive access to "tools" that improve it's survival in unusual ways. I don't want TR to spend half of his time surviving to damage (that is what warrior are here for), I want him to be easy to kill if you catch him, but hard to catch. It is not a warrior and should not get easy access to DR.
Well... Anyway, my ideas are to complex to be summed-up in a few sentences.
The major issue in this discussion look to be that you want all classes to be the same in order to be balanced while I want every classes to be unique and balanced. The actual ITC is a tiny-unstoppable, witch mean that it is a tiny-warrior ability. Warrior ability have nothing to do in TR's encounter list.
+1
if TR go for stealth, they should get stealth, and maybe some support hability, but not became one of the best damage-dealer of the game. Saboteur feats are mostly game-breaking.
joocycuzzzzzz =>
I wasn't meaning you in particular, and I don't care if it is you or someone else. You post on the topic things that have been stated multiple time, that everyone know, and without consideration for past discussions.
This is not really constructive, and for my personal though, when someone act this way, it don't look like a well planed post, but rather some rage-post. If it was not, then it is fine, but remain useless.
I am not trying to say that TR is fine and should stay as it is. I say that you don't help, even if you are not wrong.
PvE boy ?
I don't know if you've read it, but some times ago, I've admitted that class unbalance was one of the major reason for me to stay out of PvP, after being quite active in the past. So, what is the use of this "nickname" ?
The fact that I am a "PvE boy" actually mean that we share partially similar visions, so, it is not really relevant.:cool:
I've been waiting for this complaint to crop up.
Let me get my popcorn.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.