Damage very high in Epic's Dungeons

berthraktus · March 2015

After a long test in the preview I see that even with the set level 70 and fully defensive build + 130k HP, the mobs are really strong to the point that perhaps the minority or anger anyone can finish.

Does anyone know if this is bug or damage really is that damage.

Here is a print of a simple mob taking a hit in my GF Protector (Full rank 12, Artefact Rank 140 and HP 130k)

PS: Remember that this was a simple damage too weak mob. Some mobs are giving 200+,300k+ DPS.

kss1985 · March 2015

a 200K hit is a bit too high.. but in general we need difficult dungeon in order to achieve 4 things:

- more challenge;
- more fun;
- more team cooperation;
- more rainbow party;

Hope they balance it a bit more.. but please keep it hard!!!

mirrorballs · March 2015

kss1985 wrote: »

a 200K hit is a bit too high.. but in general we need difficult dungeon in order to achieve 4 things:

- more challenge;
- more fun;
- more team cooperation;
- more rainbow party;

Hope they balance it a bit more.. but please keep it hard!!!

The harder the better.

ameonne · March 2015

But if you look for the amount of dmg debuffs every class have it`s not that scary.
For example:
DC: Break the Spirit 50% dmg debuff at 4th rank for 6s every 9-10s (1 target), Divine Glow 5% for each stack up to 3 (5 targets), feated Brand of the sun 5%
GF: Protector cap stone up to 20%, Tactician feat Surging Tide 10%
SW: Hand of Blight at 4 stacks 16% debuff with artifact weapon 24% (single), Wraith`s Shadow 20% (single), feat Aura of Despair 5% AoE 20ft radius, feated Hellish Rebuke 5%
GWF: Wicked Strike 2-3% per stack up to 3 (AoE), feated Crescendo 15%
CW: Chilling Cloud 10%
OP: Aura of Truth 12,5% AoE 30ft radius, Bane 30% (single), Smite AoE 15%

Also "new" enchants can debuff dmg too terror, plague, feytouch, vorpal and companions Rust Monster, Harper Bard.

kss1985 · March 2015

ameonne wrote: »

But if you look for the amount of dmg debuffs every class have it`s not that scary.
For example:
DC: Break the Spirit 50% dmg debuff at 4th rank for 6s every 9-10s (1 target), Divine Glow 5% for each stack up to 3 (5 targets), feated Brand of the sun 5%
GF: Protector cap stone up to 20%, Tactician feat Surging Tide 10%
SW: Hand of Blight at 4 stacks 16% debuff with artifact weapon 24% (single), Wraith`s Shadow 20% (single), feat Aura of Despair 5% AoE 20ft radius, feated Hellish Rebuke 5%
GWF: Wicked Strike 2-3% per stack up to 3 (AoE), feated Crescendo 15%
CW: Chilling Cloud 10%
OP: Aura of Truth 12,5% AoE 30ft radius, Bane 30% (single), Smite AoE 15%

Also "new" enchants can debuff dmg too terror, plague, feytouch, vorpal and companions Rust Monster, Harper Bard.

DC break the spirit now is bugged.. in empowered version doesnt work.. in case FF is much faster to cast, and it has a similar buff effect

diogene0 · March 2015

kss1985 wrote: »

a 200K hit is a bit too high..

Not if you have a cleric or a tank.

learch123 · March 2015

mirrorballs wrote: »

The harder the better.

hard for hards sake is stupid make them chalangeing but not inposible
also need to look at this from a new players veiw if no one but bis players can come close to running this content it will force mass quitting
as it stands now these dungeons are to strong
i would much rather see a tier system
tier 1 reg epic 12k gs can run it
tier 2 medeum epic 17k gs can run it
tier 3 hard 20k gs can run it
and yes i know the gs system has changed but wanted to use numbers people understode

learch123 · March 2015

even if you have a tank and healer no one can take a 200k hit no one
gf will take 30 dr on a 200k hit thats 140k damage

zekethesinner · March 2015

learch123 wrote: »

even if you have a tank and healer no one can take a 200k hit no one
gf will take 30 dr on a 200k hit thats 140k damage

And, u wont belive this, thats for what shield is, and thats for what CC is, when gf drops shields to buff (coz, in case u dont know, we can perma shield). For me 200k dmg is not problem, at all. 1.5mln is.

(Sin)cerely
Kain

learch123 · March 2015

have you looked at reportrs from test server om epic runs with a gf dc and 3 dps
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?865801-Feedbak-Level-70-Dungeons-Some-are-not-possible

Unknown · March 2015

This content has been removed.

diogene0 · March 2015

learch123 wrote: »

even if you have a tank and healer no one can take a 200k hit no one
gf will take 30 dr on a 200k hit thats 140k damage

And if the cleric knows how to play his class, it's easy to take people to the damage reduction cap with a decent uptime, which is, if I remember correctly, 75 or 80%. Now make the maths.

kangkeok · March 2015

morenthar wrote: »

Well, there's "hard" and then there is overdoing it. Now, I'm withholding judgement until I really run some of that content. I just didn't have the patience for testing this mod. I prefer a challenging dungeon with thoughtful encounters with tricks and traps. You know, interesting content. Facing pumped-up mobs that simply hit like a freight train is just as boring as vaporizing weak mobs.

So we'll see. I'm not really all that optimistic considering what I have been hearing thus far.

Totally agree. I rather play a dungeon with interesting and challenging mechanics. Maybe like dungeon with alarm system which when trigger it send mobs within a certain radius come pouring into the room. Or something like fighting Valindra where u need rely on team coordination. Fighting a buff up mob is just stupid as what is it now. Its just a lazy way to introduce challenging content and it only benefit those with BIS item. People gonna start picking party member based on their equipment as lesser iLevel is obviously not preferred in that kind of dungeon.

learch123 · March 2015

diogene0 wrote: »

And if the cleric knows how to play his class, it's easy to take people to the damage reduction cap with a decent uptime, which is, if I remember correctly, 75 or 80%. Now make the maths.

i really hope this is the case but from the logs i have seen its not
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?865801-Feedbak-Level-70-Dungeons-Some-are-not-possible

now if you have any first hand information on the new dungeons that shows wht you are saying i would love to see it

diogene0 · March 2015

learch123 wrote: »

i really hope this is the case but from the logs i have seen its not
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?865801-Feedbak-Level-70-Dungeons-Some-are-not-possible

now if you have any first hand information on the new dungeons that shows wht you are saying i would love to see it

I don't have up to date first hand information, but I know the DC and my theories usually prove to be right... lvl 4 astral shield is +40% extra DR. That's a lot. Then comes feated foresight, which means 12% more. Most classes should be near the DR cap with that but we may add hallowed ground (+30% DR) or divine armor for downtimes and a faithful cleric spamming divine mode divine glow just to be sure.

learch123 · March 2015

well they had a dc in there group and it didnt help at all

diogene0 · March 2015

learch123 wrote: »

well they had a dc in there group and it didnt help at all

If the DC is using damage buff spells or heals it's not going to help.

abaddon523 · March 2015

diogene0 wrote: »

And if the cleric knows how to play his class, it's easy to take people to the damage reduction cap with a decent uptime, which is, if I remember correctly, 75 or 80%. Now make the maths.

An argument can be made that that could work with 200k attacks, but what about 700k? Even if we assume perfect 80% mitigation that's still 140,000 per hit. That's a one-hit kill on any class. And what if we have an enemy that does 10 of those 700,000 hits and the hits are undodgeable and unblockable (think TR's Bloodbath attack)? What then?

Hmmm...bummer. That insta-kills the entire party. Even if everyone in the party has a soulforge he just whacks you a second time after it triggers.

Well, that's exactly what Traven Blackdagger can do in Epic Cragmire.

Any other ideas?

learch123 · March 2015

as it stand right now on epics in test server they are imposible
even full bis group will be killed so as for the resat of us if this goes live like this we are all dead dead dead

helpimblindinrl · March 2015

I don't really like the sound of this. More of the Lair of Laustauth approach to difficulty. I was hoping stat limitations would take us back to open beta/launch style difficulty. As in stop the accumulation of damage from many sources through build, movement, control and team work. LOL is more move or get rekt but limited numbers means that isn't hard at all unless the server misses a half second beat and puts you back in the red.

Disclaimer I havent spent much time on test because better things to do. rather get the reader's digest

piejal · March 2015

abaddon523 wrote: »

An argument can be made that that could work with 200k attacks, but what about 700k? Even if we assume perfect 80% mitigation that's still 140,000 per hit. That's a one-hit kill on any class. And what if we have an enemy that does 10 of those 700,000 hits and the hits are undodgeable and unblockable (think TR's Bloodbath attack)? What then?

Hmmm...bummer. That insta-kills the entire party. Even if everyone in the party has a soulforge he just whacks you a second time after it triggers.

Well, that's exactly what Traven Blackdagger can do in Epic Cragmire.

Any other ideas?

how many % hp did you use the cask? did Tavern use enrage in the first use of the cask? are you already cek every corner of the dungeon?
if tavern got that massive damage and imune there must be something missing.. there is some method to not make tavern become enrage.. we will figure it out
u need to try mix HR to your party.. HR can permaroot the melee mob so tank just need to tank range mobs.. with good build there some option like 24% temp hp every 6s, dodge buff every 6s, 5 stack of boar skin which give 2% DR each stack every 6s
it's not all about paingiver like prev mod, survive is the important key when your team have good teamwork and neat tactic it's a matter of time the boss will go down
can't wait mod 6 and gear up and test epic dungeon

learch123 · March 2015

right now all i see is a broken dungeon

abaddon523 · March 2015

piejal wrote: »

how many % hp did you use the cask? did Tavern use enrage in the first use of the cask? are you already cek every corner of the dungeon?
if tavern got that massive damage and imune there must be something missing.. there is some method to not make tavern become enrage.. we will figure it out
u need to try mix HR to your party.. HR can permaroot the melee mob so tank just need to tank range mobs.. with good build there some option like 24% temp hp every 6s, dodge buff every 6s, 5 stack of boar skin which give 2% DR each stack every 6s
it's not all about paingiver like prev mod, survive is the important key when your team have good teamwork and neat tactic it's a matter of time the boss will go down
can't wait mod 6 and gear up and test epic dungeon

These are all just statements of blind faith with based on nothing but your assumptions.

You assume there's a method to not make him enraged.
You assume that HR's will be able to permaroot the melee mobs in the fight.
You assume that the group I was with we were all trying to get paingiver.
You assume we didn't have good teamwork.
And you assume there is some set of right tactics that will work.

Not one of those things is based on anything other than your guesses.

Now, to answer your initial questions: Travern was at about 85% health when we used the cask. Sometimes more. We only resorted to the cask when almost the entire room was covered in fire and there was nowhere left for us to stand.

When you enter the room you get a piece of lore. The lore describes the battle tactics Travern will use. It describes all of his attacks. We all read through it multiple times to try and figure out some method to beat him. However, the lore explicitly states that when you use the cask to quench the fire he becomes enraged and immediately goes into his "drunken rage" attack.

I'm not going to give your commentary any further consideration until you've actually attempted it so you have some actual knowledge about what is being discussed. If it is just a matter of tactics then...go forth! Show my tactically challenged self how it is done. Report back how you defeat Traven. We can all benefit from your insight. That is, once you have it. As of now, you do not possess any.

piejal · March 2015

abaddon523 wrote: »

These are all just statements of blind faith with based on nothing but your assumptions.

You assume there's a method to not make him enraged.
You assume that HR's will be able to permaroot the melee mobs in the fight.
You assume that the group I was with we were all trying to get paingiver.
You assume we didn't have good teamwork.
And you assume there is some set of right tactics that will work.

Not one of those things is based on anything other than your guesses.

Now, to answer your initial questions: Travern was at about 85% health when we used the cask. Sometimes more. We only resorted to the cask when almost the entire room was covered in fire and there was nowhere left for us to stand.

When you enter the room you get a piece of lore. The lore describes the battle tactics Travern will use. It describes all of his attacks. We all read through it multiple times to try and figure out some method to beat him. However, the lore explicitly states that when you use the cask to quench the fire he becomes enraged and immediately goes into his "drunken rage" attack.

I'm not going to give your commentary any further consideration until you've actually attempted it so you have some actual knowledge about what is being discussed. If it is just a matter of tactics then...go forth! Show my tactically challenged self how it is done. Report back how you defeat Traven. We can all benefit from your insight. That is, once you have it. As of now, you do not possess any.

fair enough
i believe you and your party is a skillfuly premade no doubt about it..
just saying there is a lot of "what if ?" and we will figure it out, i am not saying that i will 100% figure out how..
let's be patience and wait until it goes live and everyone test it so we can share what we got
just thinking why Dev make something that can't be beaten except they mess up "again"

mirrorballs · March 2015

abaddon523 wrote: »

An argument can be made that that could work with 200k attacks, but what about 700k? Even if we assume perfect 80% mitigation that's still 140,000 per hit. That's a one-hit kill on any class. And what if we have an enemy that does 10 of those 700,000 hits and the hits are undodgeable and unblockable (think TR's Bloodbath attack)? What then?

Hmmm...bummer. That insta-kills the entire party. Even if everyone in the party has a soulforge he just whacks you a second time after it triggers.

Well, that's exactly what Traven Blackdagger can do in Epic Cragmire.

Any other ideas?

What was the average item level, HP setting of your party, with what classes?

Did you try damage debuff support builds/classes? I've recently noticed that with certain setups, WK TRs can maintain 100% uptime on a total 45% damage debuff with ease, and the last time I checked, there wasn't a 'damage debuff resistance' with mobs. With the current level of high AP gain, TRs can also spam Courage Breaker with 120% damage debuff at rank4 (although this one's not additive, and multiplicative).

I'm sure everyone on your team are good players and did their best, but I'm not so sure we truly understand the scope of changes mod6 will bring, and what different builds/options/possibilities it offers us. I find it hard to believe everyone testing out the preview currently are running with builds/tactics 100% optimized for mod6, and in many cases these subtle differences can cause big differences in results.

diogene0 · March 2015

abaddon523 wrote: »

An argument can be made that that could work with 200k attacks, but what about 700k? Even if we assume perfect 80% mitigation that's still 140,000 per hit. That's a one-hit kill on any class. And what if we have an enemy that does 10 of those 700,000 hits and the hits are undodgeable and unblockable (think TR's Bloodbath attack)? What then?

Hmmm...bummer. That insta-kills the entire party. Even if everyone in the party has a soulforge he just whacks you a second time after it triggers.

Well, that's exactly what Traven Blackdagger can do in Epic Cragmire.

Any other ideas?

Add a layer of CC. CC'd mobs do zero damage. If it's a boss, do it the old way: pay attention to animations.

Unknown · March 2015

This content has been removed.

juniorbrk · March 2015

Please keep it hard!!!

mattia78 · March 2015

To All the ppl writing in here, assuming this or that, pls get to lvl 70 and get into those dungeons, then get back here and write your thoughts. I've been to CC a few times and i can say that you have 1 chance out of 10k to finish it with uber geared party. But you need skill (of course) , coordination and you cannot make a single mistake or you All die in a couple of secs. Control mobs is almost impossible and it last only 1 or 2 secs Max with full control toons. You think the boss is hard, but you didn't not see anything till deathpledged and hexers come out. Best run i did we took Traven to 45%. But we were 3.5k+item level with lots of hp. Not worth the time spent atm.

mattia78 · March 2015

Forgot to mention elite mobs healing themselves with their single potion for like more than a million HP, hilarious

tradeactbd · March 2015

mirrorballs wrote: »

The harder the better.

So if it's this hard for BiS players, do you think anyone with green or blue gear will be able to do anything?

A challenge is one thing but a frustrating slaughter is poor design.

Damage very high in Epic's Dungeons

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