DEVs, CMs pls stop discrimination of DCs!!!

elvenaar · February 2015

Ok this will be the nth thread of this type, but it needs to be made as it seems the discrimination of DCs is just not stopping!
After Tiamat came out as we all know lag issues were almost constant and the Heroic Encounter (as it's not a raid) was barely, if at all playable. Players quickly found a scapegoat for this and that was us DCs and the use of our Astral Seal combined w/ Burning Guidance. So after this, everyone started demanding we respec, which costs AD, and get rid of Burning Guidance as in their opinion that was the one one causing the bug.

Now most of us did just that, at least those that could afford to, however the players lag apparently was not solved, so now they are demanding we cease to use Astral Seal too completely, which is something that finally made me snap.
What most discriminators don't take into account is that high lvl DCs have already specced and leveled their artifact weapon and they went for the Astral Seal one as it's the best by far, so now they are expecting us to just dump a Legendary quality artifact weapon just because they are too lazy to turn their bloody graphics down to lower. This I refuse to do.

I know I have spent milions of AD upgrading my artifact weapon and I will spend millions more when mod 6 comes and I have to upgrade it again, so I will NOT do something stupid like dropping my legendary weapon just because some people have lag issues and they blame us for it when all they would have to do is turn their graphics down a notch.

I had the same lag as everyone did at first, but then I realised that my machine is not capable of running the game at the setting I had until then as Mod 4&5 brought heavy new graphics elements to the game and most older machines are not capable of supporting them, so you need to turn off those effects that these elements are incorporated into. Some people can't seem to fathom this and instead they rage against DCs for no reason.

Now lower rank CMs have declared here in the forums that the DC spell Astral Seal is NOT what causes the lag, but either most people don't read the forums and they are influenced by guildmates who do read and like to discriminate nonetheless or they are part of this latter group of haters. In any case the discrimination won't stop and I'm having my fill of it so much that I'm really considering quitting the game if mod 6 doesn't help.

So as a solution I'm here to beg Akromatik and the Devs to make the dev blog on the front page of the site or at least a sticky thread in the forums and declare there that we DCs are NOT the cause of the lag like the other CMs have stated already, because I see some people just won't understand otherwise. Pls Akro and the Devs stop this stupid discriminationcycle. Thank you.

azahron · February 2015

It's probably a combination of all the SFX, number of players and the constantly spawning and swarming mobs that's causing it. Other MMOs have had similar problems when implementing large and complex encounters aimed at very large crowds.
My guess is that we won't see an end to this any time soon. Mind you, I'm not getting any lag, but I'm sure it's hell on those people who are barely meeting the system requirements (of which there are probably many given that it's a F2P game)

charononus · February 2015

Got to love the defend DC's at all costs statement.

Turn down the graphics right if you don't have the computer to run it.

graphics at min --- check
i7 processor --- check
16 GB ram -- check
GTX 860 --- check
SSD install --- check

Yeah not really that. Did find an issue where the code for multi-core rendering is bugged but this issue pisses me off.

zshikara · February 2015

I am a DC, and I do not agree with the OP.

So you need to stop using astral seal on ONE encounter! Big deal. It doesn't mean you have to stop using it for everything. Just don't use it for Tiamat and you'll be fine. I don't use it there, but I still use it in 5 mans and guess what? I didn't have to change my artifact weapon or my spec.

Rocket science here people... rocket science.

frishter · February 2015

The thing is that the moderators aren't prone to being wrong. Especially when their information comes from those working at Cryptic. They may have been told it was solved, but it's not the first time something was supposedly 'solved' but wasn't. The affect could have been merely reduced. Personally if you use burning guidance, I'd just cease to use astral seal, it's not that hard. If you don't which you said you respecced, then I would observe how it's affecting the performance of others and then continue to use it if it doesn't seem to be you personally.

vasdamas · February 2015

If I believed everything mass media says despite I see and experience an opposite I'd be wearing pink glasses and some weird coveralls to fit it. Same applied to this game. They say the lag is fixed and I still see it occuring in the game when I have a DCs running around. Why? That was more of rhetorical question.

That lag does not happen that often now though. Kudos to the devs for at least smoothing it, I guess.

myowmyow · February 2015

Discrimination? LOL!

angrysprite · February 2015

azahron wrote: »

It's probably a combination of all the SFX, number of players and the constantly spawning and swarming mobs that's causing it.

I've been saying that since the beginning: too much eye candy going on, too many character toons, companions, NPCs, and whatnot is killing people's GPUs.

My reply to rude complaints telling me how to play is simply: "complain to the Devs or deal with it."
I'm not gonna change my play-style because you have a perceived issue.

Ask nicely and I'll comply just so you feel better because: no skin off my nose about it.
The world's a mirror: like most people my attitude will instinctively reflect yours in cases like this.

katamaster81899 · February 2015

If I were you I'd keep using Astral Seal and Burning Guidance.

I really don't care what other people complain about

I'm pretty sure that the lag is *not* caused by DC powers anymore, there is no evidence to prove this.

Play your character the way you want, and ignore anyone who complains or yells at you

zebular · February 2015

Aye, so far all reports indicate that while DCs with both AS and BG can contribute to the performance issues, so does combinations from any class, and even the Mobs and Tiamat herself. This is an issue they are continuing to investigate and make changes. So far, they've done three updates to reduce the performance issues. The first was the exploit fix for AS/BG, which was insane, then they did some backend server stuff, and then even released a patch that resolved a lot of issues for many players. It's not totally fixed yet but the rose-colored glasses need to come off now, for it is not just DCs that contribute to these performance issues and even then, it's not all DCs. AS by itself, without BG, does not contribute to the performance issues.

*AS = Astral Seal (at-will)
*BG = Burning Guidance (boon)

ulviel · February 2015

zshikara wrote: »

I am a DC, and I do not agree with the OP.

So you need to stop using astral seal on ONE encounter! Big deal. It doesn't mean you have to stop using it for everything. Just don't use it for Tiamat and you'll be fine. I don't use it there, but I still use it in 5 mans and guess what? I didn't have to change my artifact weapon or my spec.

Rocket science here people... rocket science.

This! Don't get me wrong, I am not quite convinced the lag is caused by astral seal, and even if, it is for sure not the only cause, but for Sune's sake, it is temporary unslotting 1 at-will, not full respec! And it is not like by doing so you'd be unable to survive or contribute or anything, in fact you'd hardly notice any difference... unless you want to be no1 on "x" list that much.

d4rthd00fus · February 2015

Several groups have tested with multiple DCs using AS and then swapping it for another power. Yes AS is still a major cause of lag, no it has not been fixed regardless of what cryptic or the mods have said. Yes the heads still bug and the cleric protect phase still sticks. No actual fixes to Tiamat were made with the exception of the graphics engine dumping texture fidelity if it approaches buffer overload (which I don't believe helps this situation at all). If you choose be that DC that insists on using what is widely known to ruin the experience of entire groups then expect to hear about it from them when they see you do it. I don't blame the DCs as it is unreasonable for cryptic to not issue a fix but I do encourage those such as the OP to rethink their stance in the interest of the common good.

qutsemnie · February 2015

I have had no problems since turning off multi-core rendering. I had one of those "moderately decent gaming rigs" experience white graphics effects and stuttering lag on tiamat when not setting everything to low. Tried every "trick" until just last week saw someone chatting about turn off multi-core rendering, and wham all the problems related to zerg forces went away. Graphics are right, not everything is on low, and no stuttering lag in Tiamat.

IMO they have major issue with something related to that function in their engine, and they should globally disable it or at least advise people to do so until they understand it.

myowmyow · February 2015

d4rthd00fus wrote: »

Several groups have tested with multiple DCs using AS and then swapping it for another power. Yes AS is still a major cause of lag, no it has not been fixed regardless of what cryptic or the mods have said. Yes the heads still bug and the cleric protect phase still sticks. No actual fixes to Tiamat were made with the exception of the graphics engine dumping texture fidelity if it approaches buffer overload (which I don't believe helps this situation at all). If you choose be that DC that insists on using what is widely known to ruin the experience of entire groups then expect to hear about it from them when they see you do it. I don't blame the DCs as it is unreasonable for cryptic to not issue a fix but I do encourage those such as the OP to rethink their stance in the interest of the common good.

Now, THAT was very well said!

sockmunkey · February 2015

myowmyow wrote: »

Now, THAT was very well said!

It wasn't well said at all. It was a rant. People keep saying its been tested, but if that was true why is there still so much debate? Where is the evidence of this testing? Where are the logs? The videos? For something so many people are willing to blame others for. Where is the one single shred of proof to conclusively put this rumor down?

And that is really what this entire subject is about, proof. Without that anything else said here is conjecture, opinions, and rants.

frishter · February 2015

sockmunkey wrote: »

It wasn't well said at all. It was a rant. People keep saying its been tested, but if that was true why is there still so much debate? Where is the evidence of this testing? Where are the logs? The videos? For something so many people are willing to blame others for. Where is the one single shred of proof to conclusively put this rumor down?

And that is really what this entire subject is about, proof. Without that anything else said here is conjecture, opinions, and rants.

Tbh even the most obvious things are debated. For example the rp system being a good design and balance.

angrysprite · February 2015

sockmunkey wrote: »

It wasn't well said at all. It was a rant. People keep saying its been tested, but if that was true why is there still so much debate? Where is the evidence of this testing? Where are the logs? The videos? For something so many people are willing to blame others for. Where is the one single shred of proof to conclusively put this rumor down?

And that is really what this entire subject is about, proof. Without that anything else said here is conjecture, opinions, and rants.

This.

frishter wrote: »

Tbh even the most obvious things are debated. For example the rp system being a good design and balance.

Very good point.

Back to what Sockmunkey said: What d4rthd00fus said was not well said at all.

@d4rthd00fus: If "several groups have tested" then where is all that data? When were the tests made? Where are the ACT log reports?, Screenshots? Videos? All the rest? How about even the names of these fictitious groups, which is what they are until they're named?

~Sigh~ You get my point. Please don't throw down alleged 'facts' without citing sources. it's just courtesy.

Now, generally speaking to the thread as a whole:

Here's the thing: The OP is correct and right. Perhaps the OP could have stated much of what they said better, a little more tactfully, but that doesn't change the problem they are complaining about. DCs are just the flavor of the month. I find it rude, crude, and stupid to expect a *player* to change things around for something the *developers* are at fault for.

Sure, particular at-will+particular feat combo may have caused problems at one time. It wan't the only cause. That part of the cause was fixed (the part that other-than-DC classes are still ranting about). Seriously, this is a Dev issue, not a player issue. Not to mention lest than 10% of the player base even realize and remember these forums are even here. Meaning that even if the DC AS+BG "issue" were still an "issue" (even though it not) - most DC players wouldn't even be aware of it.

@OP: I agree with you, you are correct and right. However, the way you phrase your argument makes it look a like like just another rant. You make good points and not just that you are an costed DC player, but applies to *every* player in every class - such as TRs, then HRs, then DCs, everyone gets their turn at being ranted against. It just depends on which thread you look at.

manzillaprime · February 2015

OP is not right at all. Nobody has demanded that DC's respec. Instead, players ask that for the common good of ALL other players, that during the Tiamat encounter, DC's refrain from using one or 2 abilities. Is it that hard? Can you not adapt your playstyle for one single encounter that is incredibly mechanical and easy at this stage? Instead of whining about discrimination against DC's, those players should adapt and overcome until such time as there is a fix, or the players move onto something else. Tiamat is a straight up dps burn anyway. Even if you aren't specced righteous, would it kill you to just dps during that fight?

aulduron · February 2015

I'm prone to lag, and never have I noticed DCs causing it. I have BG and use AS and have never had any problems. Don't listen to these people.

rickcase276 · February 2015

I sometimes get lag in there too, but it is not caused by DCs. What lags me the most in the cleric phase is more than 3 CWs using ice storm and icy terrain at nearly the same time. The other day in there the ice shards from an ice storm stayed on my screen for way more than 30 seconds. So I do agree that it is a combination of problems causing the lag not just one group of players. And surprisingly I seldom if ever get lag in the Tiamat phase, I just get it in the cleric's phase. And yes, I play a DC mostly, and no I do not use AS in there.

aulduron · February 2015

Yes. Ice Storm is problematic. on my last computer I couldn't use Icy Terrain, or group with someone who did, at all.

naicalus · February 2015

It's a combination of everything at Tiamat. It's not big meanie stupidhead DCs ruining your day.

I will get crippling, unplayable lag at Tiamat without a single Astral Seal user. No little green circle icon on Tiamat, not up at all, and yet oh gods I can barely move.

I will be perfectly fine with three Astral Seals going including my own, and yes I do have Burning Guidance. And yes, I do use it at Tiamat, I've parsed it in ACT and BG proccing so much from it is ~20% of my damage at Tiamat. How about I ask your TR not to stealth or your Trapper not to stance switch or your CW not to use their tab ability? Clearly tabbed ray of enfeeblement or whatever is causing my occasional lag, stop using it omg.

I use it every Tiamat. When I get hit with bad lag I let it expire to see if it helps, it never does. Actually, I notice exactly when my lag starts when I get it, and it's always in conjunction with Tiamat's breath, regardless of whether AS is up or not. My DC always uses it but unsurprisingly my TR doesn't. :P Pretty sure my DC didn't make Tiamat breathe.

What does make my computer throw a fit? When there's so many overlapping power effects that the platform we're standing on is blown out completely white from shiny HAMSTER.

I recently asked someone who was in the same instance as me but not my party about his lag; he said he didn't have any. I'd been using AS the whole time. Gee, it's almost like AS doesn't make your computer explode. Oh right, it doesn't. 25 people, their companions, a bunch of devils, and Tiamat blowing a bunch of HAMSTER all over everyone while a billion explosions go off does.

kurtb88 · February 2015

naicalus wrote: »

It's a combination of everything at Tiamat. It's not big meanie stupidhead DCs ruining your day.

If as you say it's a combination of things than it seems fair for the Tiamat RAID group to make every reasonable attempt to alleviate the problem. There are some things we can do to help alleviate it right? One thing is don't use Astral Seal.

theevilskeever · February 2015

kurtb88 wrote: »

If as you say it's a combination of things than it seems fair for the Tiamat RAID group to make every reasonable attempt to alleviate the problem. There are some things we can do to help alleviate it right? One thing is don't use Astral Seal.

If you're lagging, it partially means that your PC is not up to the task (of handling badly executed heroic encounter/raid), you personally can't handle Tiamat. Therefore, you must not participate. For common good and all, do not enter the instance. Is that too much to ask? Jeez, just upgrade that toaster you're using as a gaming rig already. Can't you buy a nicer PC or something? That will be reasonable method to alleviate the problem.

lewstelamon01 · February 2015

This thread is getting far too divisive to justify keeping it open.

DEVs, CMs pls stop discrimination of DCs!!!

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