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Will the lifesteal change kill this class or not? explain please.
overdriver13
Member Posts: 1,521 Arc User
Some people say the lifesteal changes in mod6 will make sw not viable. Others ( far less) say the change will not hurt the class. I want to see the reasoning on both sides. Please explain your positions.
Post edited by overdriver13 on
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I am happy that all the claims about "zero heal" DCs will be true once m6 hits live though
WTB Class Reroll please
I know some people hate pvp and think it does not belong in the game. But pvp comprises 3 entire campaigns, is the center piece of an entire mod (IWD), and is a major component of Neverwinter its self. So the question (how will mod6 lifesteal changes affect sw's in pvp) is entirely legitimate and as deserving of an answer as how the ls changes will affect sw in pve.
For me personally I believe I will actually be much stronger in PvP than I already am thanks to the life steal severity change and the life drinker enhancement boost. For kill snipe style SW ( which it seems is just about everyone except for me) the going will be rough since there really is no damage boost or current popular enchant boost which will increase survivability significantly. You're going to have to rely on your team even more.
Vorpal and soulforged are no longer kings ladies and gentlemen.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
Explain further please.
Ok, the vast majority of PvP SW's are Fury builds that kill snipe. Essentially they roam around behind their team mates and deal massive damage from a safe distance. This is how they are successful and it is what they do best. They may have trouble against high DPS class in 1v1 situations because it basically comes down to a DPS race in these circumstances. They absolutely suck at holding nodes unless they have a baby sitter which is the main reason why people say "SW sucks in PvP" since holding nodes is what wins. Fury's are great until they run out of stamina at which point they are usually dead unless spec'd for massive lifesteal. Since Lifesteal proc % is now essentially nerfed, Furies become that much weaker. Most also run Vorpal and Soulforged.
To compensate for this weakening they'll have to look to other means for mitigation and survivability and mercifully enough the devs provided some. Some enchants got some killer boosts which will help survivability in different ways and with the nerf to crit % because of the new stat curve, vorpal really is only going to be best on TR's who can guarantee critical strikes.
For everyone else, we now have the luxury of choosing several ways to tackle the same survivability problem through enchantments which will be far more effective than vorpal is.
As for why I feel I will be stronger is my build is extremely tanky (for an SW) and I am the only SW I know of (and perhaps am the only one period) that can single handedly hold nodes. By this I mean in most cases, even at equal GS, you are going to have to bring friends to kill me or force me off your node. Since Lifedrinker, Terror and Plaguefire all got very nice survivability boosting changes, it make me that much stronger since my playstyle is centered around those enchants already (I have a GPF, and perfect Lifedrinker and Terror which I use in preference to the vorpal)
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
So no, don't get overexcited, thou ain't not the only one and special running around with tanky 45k+ hp build.
WTB Class Reroll please
Ok I want to know yet even more. My lock is only level 45. I know 60 is normally the big change for any class, and people say even more so for sw's, but as I increase in level and through the brackets, my lock is becoming more effective, not less. The build I am using is a fury soulbinder (thanks vas!). Soulsparks help immensely and I take every defensive feat and boon I can (well the dragon boons now). Defense I focus on hp and deflect. A lot of deflect.
I find myself often in a dps race, though I can (alone) hold a node for about 30 seconds vs 4, indefinitely vs 3, and feel confident about my odds of killing both if it is vs 2, even if they are tr's. 2 skilled cws will give me problems though if I am fighting them alone. I do not face tank everything but try to combine tankiness with A LOT of movement, cc (harrowstorm ftw), and a ton of burst damage.
I don't hide behind my team and snipe but, more often than I'd like, am the first one on node, getting smacked in the mouth. A lot of it is about weaving around things to confuse the ability to target me, sometimes those things are my team, other times they are the enemy team. It is fun. Shadow Sprint is cool, but I am more into running (literal circles) around my opponent, leaving shadow sprint for when the highest threat opponent's encounters come off of cool down.
I do run a g.vorpal, and was planning soulforged but these are standard "bis" enchantments anyways. 30% crit chance at this point and 40k crits at level 45, seems like a no brainer. Harrowstorm prone>any solid damage encounter>killing flame and dead. Often it is just harrowstorm>killing flame>dead if the target is less than full health.
All that said, I checked out the weapon enchantment changes and it looks like terror may well be the new bis.
So yes, tell me more about your build and playstyle and how these work in synergy with the specific enchantments you use. Do you feel it better to just neglect crit and go full on power wit the lifedrinker?
Almost every single lock I've run into in the upper echelons of PvP (I won't say skilled because leaderboard does not equate to skill) does the type of play I described. Yourself included Vasdamas. In fact the last match I recall seeing you in you were firing off from over by the stairs in Rivenscar off node while the team was preoccupied with your mates on 2. If you've changed up since, then great. Not sure why you view my post as an attack of some sort or that someone is trying to steal your spotlight or something. Most locks do have trouble holding nodes which is why there are so many crying for "survivability" boosts. The common theme from asking people in game and reading; almost all are Fury builds.
Not saying that you can't play Fury and be successful. But I have come to find that their success is highly reliant on how fast they can burst. Period. The math doesn't lie.
Temp will always be able to boast at the minimum 5% more DR, 5% more Lifesteal, stamina on tap, and temp HP off on crits. All this while still being able to dish out serious damage. These are the things that I see as far more useful in a PvP setting. If you think these differences aren't that much, you probably haven't tried and refined them out yet.
As for me overdrive, I am a templock if you haven't figured it out yet. I hover on nodes using a scoot and shoot style to avoid melees while keeping them close enough to be effected by more aura. Against ranged I'll scoot in to close distance to get them in my aura, dodge initial control effects and panic them into starting to burn their dodges.
Victory against squishies is through burst. Against tanks its through attrition.
Oh and I have the lifedrinker on right now because I am testing enchants out on preview. On live I run a GPF for continuous debuff and the fastest possible tend procs. With GPF and terror now debuffing power, it only reinforces the attrition style more with added defense.
That's why even with the life steal change (which actually isn't that bad) I see an empowerment.
Oh and speaking of life steal, the change is likely going to also not have a default 100% severity as it is on preview and I'm willing to bet that the class that can achieve the highest severity, on top of highest proc % will be the templock.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
Post a guide!
thats called tactics
And your wild guess/accusation on I never played a butterfly SW is not true. Temptation was the very first build I had on my SW for PvP and I had a lot of testing with that till I realized that it's simply impossible to kill some enemies with it. Just really? Rolling temptation for extra LS affected by HD and endless sprint (which in some cases is not)? Oh and not to mention I have that feat allowing me to apply lesser curse on my enemies, despite I am fury so yes please do post your Temptation guide for PvP. It would be just brilliant to see another conception of PvP SW on this forums.
WTB Class Reroll please
Alright so clearly there is a clarity issue here for both of us. I took your earlier statement regarding the "high and mightiness" or something to that effect as a personal defense. If it was not such then I am incorrect and at fault. You seem to have taken my previous statement concerning the number of locks that can hold nodes as an absolute and boastful of which it was neither. I did say "that I know of" which is an open ended declaration and truthful. I will concede that my widespread statement is conjecture, however your reply was to invoke the names of other "vetted" players is simply argumentum ad verecundiam, and thus also conjecture. You've clearly strayed into the realm of ad hominem since then which is quite frankly beneath you.
There were perhaps faults in logic on both sides and for that I retract. Friends?
The data supporting my stance about the tankiness disparity between styles is correct and accurate however despite the dismissal of it as the math when taken into perspective as a whole does prove it.
As for holding a node I will also clarify. By this I mean that you head straight for and engage in combat on nodes hindering and/or retaining control for as long as possible. The notion of hanging back off node and building up sparks through ranged attacks then going in when your sparks are full is in actuality not holding a node, but either kill sniping in the event that there are allies contesting the point preoccupying your opponents during which you have the luxury to pop off a Killing Flames on whatever hapless opponent drops below 50% health first, or harassment of the enemy currently occupying it. In either case you are not holding the node. Tactical, yes. But not holding the node.
Now, my apologize for digressing. As for the topic, (Vasdamas, Daigotsu and any others who will be updating their guides may want to pay attention to this part) the stat curve proposed will be a blanket and constant 400 points = 1% increase in a stat. What this means everyone, is that in order to equate to a 20% chance to lifesteal, one would need to stack 8000 GS towards it. Obviously this number sounds ridiculous, but keep in mind that the devs have stated there will be a mass overhaul of all gear which will increase their effective rates. Until they do this and one attains lvl 70, it is impossible to accurately forecast the end result.
With that said, it is obvious that the best way to go will be in selecting feat/boons/gear that offer flat % increases to lifesteal. In this, if you do plan on not abandoning lifesteal, I would recommend all boons and feats that enhance lifesteal even at the expense of losing some that enhance damage for the added survivability. I highly recommend you go out and purchase the Draconic set now (not the Templar one, the normal one) before the price jumps up as it no doubt will, as it offers a flat 3% lifesteal increase aura which the SW benefits from as well, on top of being able to slot overloads in.
For enchantments, don't go off and trade your Vorpal for a Terror just yet. Again if you plan on basing your style around lifesteal, then strongly consider the Lifedrinker enchantment. The change doesn't just add a constant flat percentage to your lifesteal chance and severity while equipped, what it does is adds a stack for the listed value per enemy you strike with it for a short duration(around 3 sec or so). This means the more enemies you reach out and touch with a lifedrinker, the higher your lifesteal proc chance goes. So far on preview I have been able to get as many as 10 stacks going at once boosting my lifesteal chance up to an awesome 64%. This change makes Lifedrinker an excellent tanky type of enchantment despite the lowered damage output. Now before you trade your vorpal in just yet, keep in mind that we don't know if it will stay in it's current incarnation or not so this may be subject to change. It is also important to note that Lifedrinker grants increased lifesteal severity as well and is the only equipment I have seen yet that does so.
As for Terror, everyone is drooling over what looks to be an amazing boost but consider the proposed stat curve when taking it's effects into account. It debuffs 40% defense and power and can root 10% of the time. This looks marvelous! But...
Power will only grant 1% damage increase per every 400 points...
The 40% defense debuff still puts it behind plaguefire (which got a big damage boost and a power debuff effect as well...) for the purpose of burning through defense...
Vorpal is also propsed to debuff defense though the value is still undecided.
So in theory, a toon with 12000 power will only net 30% damage increase off of that power score which is less than half of what that will grant now. A debuff of that will lower their power to 7200 or 18%. That is a 12% damage decrease off of power's boost but it does not effect flat damage increases off of feats or weapons. Thus if you were expecting Terror to cut an opponents damage nearly in half, sorry to disappoint. Just some food for thought.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
THIS is why I started this tread. Well done and well played by all involved, thank you! This last post is probably the very best informed speculation on how mod6 will affect a class and how to adjust for it. Good stuff.
As for power, now since it will be hard to stack it to be effective, tenebrous should shine even more because it will obviously give more damage output than if we slot radiants, for example. Yet it is all subject to change so speculating is pointless at least at this moment. Besides I heard stacking a lot ArP is not bad option now. Will see
WTB Class Reroll please
You'll want to stick with low damage multi proc powers for sure if you plan on a transcendent terror. The rooting is just fantastic when it procs. There have already been several requests to fix CD to proc off of necrotic enchants (like they do Tene) for the Fury's since the lifesteal change will hurt them the most. If they do that, then Terror will by far be BiS for Fury's as it will be getting a damage boost which will equate to 20% of weapon damage, and the weapon damage will be getting raised too apparently.
There have also been requests to fix BoVA to be a persistent power through stuns as well and if they do it will definitely be a must use power as it has high target cap, great damage and is necrotic, thus benefiting Fury even more (not to mention Temp can get a 10% damage debuff attached to it)
Tene will absolutely be better as it can now go up to 5% total HP at max level and with the gear and enchant changes, HP will skyrocket. If you don't have them now, get them. 5% at 7 or 8 procs off of 60k HP is just... stupid good.
Armor pen actually raises dramatically after 61 based on the new stat curve, but considering they're talking about monsters with 80% DR I can see why. From what I can tell you will absolutely have to balance out your stats to be most effective, the days of stacking power will be gone. Keep your radiants though! It is still very beneficial to stack HP in defense slots, especially if you can get a decent lifesteal chance without having to slot darks in to get it.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
Had fun with temptation HB debuff build once. Artifact weapon + hand of blight + bova + wraith's shadow + hellish rebuke + perfect feytouched enchantment + warding curse. Tried all of those debuffs on some friend playing oneshot rogue. His SE did 8k crit on me in IWD after I applied them, while his clean SE could deal up to 55k on me. Way to mitigate piercing damage lol
WTB Class Reroll please
As long as I am in a Pug solo queue, and my BoVA and DT can get interrupted everytime i get stunned or dazed, then you are likely to never see me holding a node unless gthe other team is obviously lower geared, at which point I can and have held point alone vs 5.
Until that day, I will Kill hunt until i get my Kill title and then probably stop giving a **** in general (just being honest here, PvP isnt compelling enough to hold interest in this game).
Since My PVP campaign is capped on Dom's theres just no reason for me to worry about "winning", rather the only thing I have to look forward to is the Kill's Title (forgot the number of kills u need)
I do take offense to you calling this playstyle as Stupid, as its not the user causing this style, its the game in general. Direct your Hate toward Cryptic for making sub par, non compelling PvP content, and not the user whose simply getting by and enjoying his personal Experience.
NOW
On topic - the Change to Lifesteal effectively makes life difficult for any Hellbringer spec in PvP as we are relying mostly on large big Attacks... I dont know many SW's not using Harrowstorm, which is not really a damage dealing ability, Following that with Fiery Bolt, you take a goodchunk of Life out, making Killing Flames worth using at that point.
What happens is if your health is low, and you are not stacking the holy hell out of LifeSteal Chance %, your unlikely to heal yourself reliably enough to use those big attacks unless you know your team.
In PVE however, none of this is really an issue at all, if you are finding that you cannot survive, then you have to change playstyle and use BoVA and DT, why? They Proc Damage Much more often and consistently will proc Heals. since the heals are 100% of the damage dealt, even a tiny 6k Damage proc from BoVA will give you considerable survivability and allow us SW's to stay fairly reckless
I think Most SW's at end game will have enough LifeSteal to continue as is with the usual FB/WB.KF,DT that most people do, but current Mod6 status is unknown and gear stats are incorrect.
Hopefully thigns are dfigured out soon because Im pretty sure it will require quite the revamp of how my SW is built, but will more than likely stay Hellbringer Fury, since I am and always will be a ahybrid, Id consider a better PvP choice once Cryptic gets some ideas on how to make compelling and worthwhile PvP (Dark age of Camelot and Warhammer Online did it right)
so my closing statement? Lets hope they decide to make BoVA more like Path of the Blades so it cant disengage early no matter what happens to you. That will solve many of our problems in PvP (maybe see more Tempt Locks in PvP with that change)
ive not tested my SW since the nerf to Heals from AOE attacks, this could turn out to be the turning point.. sicne we wont be getting 100% of the life back, and well, our attakcs are mostly considered aoe....
form a non hellbringer point of view at least.
Is it 30% less chance to proc with AOE Ticks? or is it simply 30% Less Health gained?
Does Dreadtheft count as an AOE?
How about Killing FLames+ Murderous Flames?
Does TT Count as an AOE?
BoVA should obviously be counted as an aoe
And I assume Fiery Bolt will as well...
If ALL of these will provide us less effective healing, then I can see this posing a problem lol
Wait a second....we won't be getting 100% life back from lifesteal? I thought that was the only good thing about it: do 1000 damage get 1000 life provided ls proc.
wth???
Max levels that seems like a lot, right around 1000 ls increase. However, since 400 points will only equal 1%, that is a paltry + 2% :rolleyes:
As of this moment I have no idea what the stats are on the elemental set, but im likely to bet that reaching that much Lifesteal will kill us in some other regard..
to be clear, the 30% reduced healing effectiveness is for AoE abilities, and I do not know if that is ALSO hit further by healing depression.
IWD is making me crash on test so I can even attempt to test vs players.
Ok, 4000 ls would be a 10% chance for it to proc right? So 14k would be 35%. If that is a chance per tick, I think even at 4k/10% chance, you would be doing ok. So if you hit 10 times for 2k damage in 10 seconds, you will be healed for 2k because 1 in 10 of those hits will proc ls. An insane series of dots of 500 damage per tick @200 ticks over ten seconds would be 20 heals for 500 a piece or a 10k heal. Not fantastic, but something.
At 35% proc chance per tick, 200 ticks (500 damage), you are looking at 35000 healing through ls. Aka something like immortal.
More reasonably, at 35% chance per tick and 10 ticks (2k damage each) you are still healing for 7k.
I am not sure of all the rest of the math though. There is healing depression and so forth to consider. It just appears that to make up for a lower percentage for ls to proc you would want more ticks. So more dots, and the longest lasting/maximum tick dots as possible.
I think I am going to download and install act and do some testing.
Ok, on a test dummy, cursed>wb>dt apparently there was 271 ticks overall, in 8 seconds. Won't go much more into what act had to say other than I feel like I am on a good trail lol.
as i am not the PVE pro and PVP specced atm, i sure have no average build about TR and PVE, but i think TR´s who use the actual feads/skills PVE orientated will dish out more Damage than most classes, espec. on single target
With TT Nerf (Creeping death isnt really a true nerf btw) and CW's and TR's sitll receiving mroe buffs, I cannot imagine youw ill see Tankier Hellbringer Fury specced SW's like mine topping DPS outside of eLOL
In mod 6 im wondering what will become of the Fabled Illienbruen set, since that is our best option for fighting dragons/tiamat
probably i don´t understand it correctly, but u deal 40% less damage with the dot
i don´t use this act ingame , so i can´t test it myself
but necrotic damage procs creeping death, now you deal 100% in a dot that tics for 8 second, after the nerf you deal 60% in 4 sec, that will be all in all with the direct damage+dot 20% less damage or not?