test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
[M6] CW things that are indirectly buffed/nerfed:
thefabricant
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
This thread is to address all CW related things that are indirectly effected by the new stat curve proposed in mod 6. I will update this as I discover new things and as the devs make further changes. The purpose of this is to come up with a list of things that need re-evaluation, as some things will become more powerful relative to how they were before. This is not saying that, "these are the things you should be using mod 6," but rather, "these are the things that need re-evaluation mod 6." This post will not be addressing the new powers, as they never existed before mod 6.
Powers:
Arcane presence - This power is indirectly buffed by the decrease in effectiveness of stacking recovery. The direct improvement of recharge speed is now worth a lot more, as you cannot get that same buff from your stats in any feasible manner.
Chilling presence+Advantage - Again, a huge buff. The 10% crit is now worth, relative to its improvement before, a heck of a lot more. Chilling presence in mod 6 is likely a compulsory choice for all ren CW's.
Storm spell - As storm spell's damage is done after a crit and the crit stat is worth less, storm spell has been, I believe, indirectly nerfed.
Eye of the storm - With the decrease in effectiveness of stacking crit, this passive has also received a massive buff.
Combustive Action - This power has been indirectly buffed, with the AP gain now becoming more powerful relative to what it was worth before.
Critical conflagration - This power was indirectly nerfed, as it is now harder to guarantee crit, critical severity has become a less powerful stat bonus.
Feats:
Controlling action - This has become slightly more powerful, although that is not saying much. As it will be harder to build up AP from other sources, this direct boost becomes more powerful.
Weapon mastery - This has become much more powerful, as once again, as 1% crit chance is harder to get from stats in mod 6 then it is now, anything that straight up gives you 1% is huge.
Fight on - This has become slightly more powerful as the recovery curve is worth less.
Lightning teleport - Slight buff, as stamina regeneration as a stat is worth less, anything that directly regenerates stamina is worth more.
Prestidigitation - Huge nerf, whilst this ability was never particularly good, now it is ******* awful. Why on earth would you want such a small percentage of your stats, when your stats are worth nothing?
Paragon feats:
Severe reaction - Another slight buff, the stamina regen is definitely worth more then it was before, although that is not saying much.
Brisk teleport - Worth slightly more now that the movement curve makes movement a useless stat.
Cold infusion - This is worth more now that defense is worth less, think of this as being like an extra layer of damage reduction.
Alacrity - This is slightly improved with the reduction in effectiveness of recovery.
Critical power - This is interesting, I am not sure whether this power has improved with the changes or deteriorated, although I am leaning towards it having being nerfed. With the reduction in the effectiveness of Crit, this feat is less likely to proc, however, with the reduction of effectiveness of AP gain, when it procs, it is worth more.
Energy recovery - Slight buff, with the reduction of the effectiveness of lifesteal.
Phantasmal destruction - This has been nerfed as with the reduced effectiveness of crit, crit severity is worth less.
Chaos magic - The big elephant in the room, this thing has been buffed massively. It doesn't matter which 3 of the buffs proc, they have all been improved in a huge way. Chaotic growth is worth more because lifesteal is now almost rubbish, Chaotic nexus is now worth more because it is downright impossible to get that much crit chance without it and Chaotic fury is now improved because its hard to get such an improvement to lifesteal without it.
Gear:
This is where I am probably missing some things where people will have to fill me in, bear in mind, that all gear will be less effective in comparison to the new gear which is coming, however I am comparing the pieces of the old gear to themselves, in order to show which ones are worth more/less. As I am not in game atm, I can't look over every set to see their set bonuses and determine how they have changed, so I am only going over the ones that I can remember that I also know will be worth more/less.
High Vizier - With the nerf to defense, this sets 4 piece bonus is now worth slightly less. The stolen defense is worth nothing now to your character.
Draconic - Worth a lot more now that recovery is worth a lot less, a 10% recharge speed increase for your party is now worth a lot more then it was before as players collectively will have less of it and as recharge speed increase has diminishing returns, that means this set's 4 piece bonus is now a lot better then before.
Magelord - Bear in min this set was terrible to begin with, now it is even worse. The random stats this set gives as a 4 piece bonus were not particularly good to begin with in comparison to other set bonuses and now it is so dramatically worsened that this set has now got itself buried even further down in the trash then it was before.
Draconic templar - With the weakening of defense, the 4 piece bonus of this set is slightly better, although I am still not super keen on this set over all.
Shadow weaver - I can't for the life of me remember what this set did, so I can't evaluate it, will update once I have looked it over again in game.
All t1 sets - Same as shadow weaver.
P/C Black ice - Same as shadow weaver.
All PVP sets - Same as shadow weaver.
To conclude, I hope that this helps with the reassessment of old stuff come mod 6, I will be updating this as stuff changes, because no doubt, it will.
Powers:
Arcane presence - This power is indirectly buffed by the decrease in effectiveness of stacking recovery. The direct improvement of recharge speed is now worth a lot more, as you cannot get that same buff from your stats in any feasible manner.
Chilling presence+Advantage - Again, a huge buff. The 10% crit is now worth, relative to its improvement before, a heck of a lot more. Chilling presence in mod 6 is likely a compulsory choice for all ren CW's.
Storm spell - As storm spell's damage is done after a crit and the crit stat is worth less, storm spell has been, I believe, indirectly nerfed.
Eye of the storm - With the decrease in effectiveness of stacking crit, this passive has also received a massive buff.
Combustive Action - This power has been indirectly buffed, with the AP gain now becoming more powerful relative to what it was worth before.
Critical conflagration - This power was indirectly nerfed, as it is now harder to guarantee crit, critical severity has become a less powerful stat bonus.
Feats:
Controlling action - This has become slightly more powerful, although that is not saying much. As it will be harder to build up AP from other sources, this direct boost becomes more powerful.
Weapon mastery - This has become much more powerful, as once again, as 1% crit chance is harder to get from stats in mod 6 then it is now, anything that straight up gives you 1% is huge.
Fight on - This has become slightly more powerful as the recovery curve is worth less.
Lightning teleport - Slight buff, as stamina regeneration as a stat is worth less, anything that directly regenerates stamina is worth more.
Prestidigitation - Huge nerf, whilst this ability was never particularly good, now it is ******* awful. Why on earth would you want such a small percentage of your stats, when your stats are worth nothing?
Paragon feats:
Severe reaction - Another slight buff, the stamina regen is definitely worth more then it was before, although that is not saying much.
Brisk teleport - Worth slightly more now that the movement curve makes movement a useless stat.
Cold infusion - This is worth more now that defense is worth less, think of this as being like an extra layer of damage reduction.
Alacrity - This is slightly improved with the reduction in effectiveness of recovery.
Critical power - This is interesting, I am not sure whether this power has improved with the changes or deteriorated, although I am leaning towards it having being nerfed. With the reduction in the effectiveness of Crit, this feat is less likely to proc, however, with the reduction of effectiveness of AP gain, when it procs, it is worth more.
Energy recovery - Slight buff, with the reduction of the effectiveness of lifesteal.
Phantasmal destruction - This has been nerfed as with the reduced effectiveness of crit, crit severity is worth less.
Chaos magic - The big elephant in the room, this thing has been buffed massively. It doesn't matter which 3 of the buffs proc, they have all been improved in a huge way. Chaotic growth is worth more because lifesteal is now almost rubbish, Chaotic nexus is now worth more because it is downright impossible to get that much crit chance without it and Chaotic fury is now improved because its hard to get such an improvement to lifesteal without it.
Gear:
This is where I am probably missing some things where people will have to fill me in, bear in mind, that all gear will be less effective in comparison to the new gear which is coming, however I am comparing the pieces of the old gear to themselves, in order to show which ones are worth more/less. As I am not in game atm, I can't look over every set to see their set bonuses and determine how they have changed, so I am only going over the ones that I can remember that I also know will be worth more/less.
High Vizier - With the nerf to defense, this sets 4 piece bonus is now worth slightly less. The stolen defense is worth nothing now to your character.
Draconic - Worth a lot more now that recovery is worth a lot less, a 10% recharge speed increase for your party is now worth a lot more then it was before as players collectively will have less of it and as recharge speed increase has diminishing returns, that means this set's 4 piece bonus is now a lot better then before.
Magelord - Bear in min this set was terrible to begin with, now it is even worse. The random stats this set gives as a 4 piece bonus were not particularly good to begin with in comparison to other set bonuses and now it is so dramatically worsened that this set has now got itself buried even further down in the trash then it was before.
Draconic templar - With the weakening of defense, the 4 piece bonus of this set is slightly better, although I am still not super keen on this set over all.
Shadow weaver - I can't for the life of me remember what this set did, so I can't evaluate it, will update once I have looked it over again in game.
All t1 sets - Same as shadow weaver.
P/C Black ice - Same as shadow weaver.
All PVP sets - Same as shadow weaver.
To conclude, I hope that this helps with the reassessment of old stuff come mod 6, I will be updating this as stuff changes, because no doubt, it will.
Post edited by thefabricant on
0
Comments
Please keep such topics here, where they belong. Thanks!
Safe travels,
Archmage Zebular of Mystryl
PWE Community Moderator
[ RoC | ToS | Support ]
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
I think it's probably futile to discuss the finer points of the different armor sets. If I hit level 70 and STILL find myself wearing HV, I'll throw my computer out the window
I am considering using draconic quite honestly, as it will give me an excuse to make up that lost recharge speed and it also has the most valuable stat of all on it...HP
The reason I posted it in the CW forums and not the preview forums is because it deals explicitly with the CW class, however, I can understand that you might want it here, it is just a case of it being a topic that there is argument for it being in either of 2 places.
Exactly. Until we see what the gear progression looks like up to 70, there's no point in really discussing what we're going to use at level 70.
I'LL be honest, your post really look like a preparation complain about a class. For someone doesn't knowing a thing about CW, V6 CW look like stronger than CW V5 by reading your complain. you mainly explain that 4+1 pass to 2+1 it a buff because the +1 have more weight in second case than in first one. All the class mechanism that give this kind of thing of every class are on the same spot. by reducing equipment power - class power become more important in part. it's not a buff
AS an example it's like your boss fire you and explain you that you will be richer now that you are fired because your wife income will be represent now a bigger part of your family'S
i also so that you (probably on purpose) specificaly forgot the strongest used power of the CW: storm spell. for many CW player it mainly 30-40% of total damage and it chance proc is based on critic, so buff or nerf.. neither about phantsmal destruction that mainly represent 30% damage for me (renegade) in pve. less crit = less chance of activate. you say nerf like it a small feat
By reading all your point CW renegade will be the new king, meuh.. i'm playing renegade since v5 (v4 was thauma), and you know what reading all that change said, renegade is good for garbage. (and maybe CW if it goes to far in the nerf of life steal)
Ok, this post is NOT a complaint post. This post is, as I stated, an EVALUATION post. The purpose of this post is to highlight which features power have been changed in mod 6 so they can be re evaluated, as their old evaluation is no longer correct. This is not a complaint thread or a buff/nerf thread, so please don't read it that way. Also btw thanks for mentioning storm spell, I will add it to the list of changes, I was tired when I wrote the post and wasn't thinking as far as how it triggered, otherwise it would have been there.
Also, about abilities becoming stronger: They are becoming stronger, relative to how strong they were in comparison to other abilities as well as what stat % they are technically worth. For example, in mod 5, the draconic set bonus was technically worth about 1600 recovery, if you converting the bonus it gives to numbers. How much recovery would it be worth now? That makes it stronger then it was relative to other gear that do not have a bonus that scale in this manner.
Finally, Whilst I do feel CW renegade will be the strongest in mod 6, you are entirely welcome as to your own opinion. Chaos magic is becoming massively powerful in terms of the power it grants and in a party everyone will be greatful for the benefit granted by having a renegade CW. However, even if they nerf lifesteal into the ground CW will not be a rubbish class. It would require playing with more skill but if you compare CW without lifesteal to other classes without lifesteal you will find the class is still in a fairly strong position due to the classes ability to keep monsters controlled.
This kind of analyse necessarly lead to false information and in your case false conclusion.
Actualy, renegade is the most nerfed among the 3 way, because you got in both time a stat nerf (for all class) and a mechanism nerf since mechanism of renegade mainly depends on crit rate.
ANd for the renegade capstone, if you count about it to save your life, you are going in big trouble since it completly random and you have 66% of your play time where the bonus you get is not the one you need
Well, all the Chaos Magic buffs are going to result in either a)big increase in survivability or b) big increase in damage...and one of the procs is both, so it's not as "unreliable" as you might think.
But the bigger part is we don't know how the stats are going to scale as we get closer to 70, nor what the level 70 gear is going to be. Until we have a more complete picture, this entire thread is pure speculation.
However, in general, I still be the +% powers are going to be more attractive, while the +stats are going to be less attractive.
That exactly same error as the other do, i'm a renegade in V5 and it not a reliable power. and in the v6 it not change it just taking less reduction than the rest. i Made first test on previous at lvl 60 on a dragon and it not reliable. i did it on purpose to not be affected by stat reduce and even then it is not reliable. it just pure speculation. have you even tchek if the +30 when power is +30 % chance or +30% healing when power activate, probably not... i haven't checked but i'm practicaly sure you can bet on second point.
That all this post about, a theory based on false information without a single test done to confirm
You don't seem to be getting the gist of what I am trying to communicate, admittedly I probably didn't word it very well. What I am TRYING to communicate is that these are the things that, relative to others, have been improved or made worse. This is important as when you build a character, you want to know what abilities are the best RELATIVE to others, be it because the ability itself is amazing or because it combo's well with other abilities. Coming up with new builds in mod 6, it is important to establish what things have changed, even relative to other things within the class, I am not arguing whether the class is stronger or weaker, the whole point of this thread was to compare abilities to what they were like before as well as what they are like relative to others. Think of it like a grading system, whereby abilities that were once a B- are now maybe an A+, this thread highlights which abilities might have been shuffled around, now we just need to find out where they have been shuffled to.
As for testing things like chaos magic, well, until the preview server is up again I will spend time theorizing, as I can't test anything in practise. Furthermore, Chaos magic was but a small part of what this thread is about, so lets stick to the topic at hand
YUp and even there it also a miss. because you don't take also in consideration the weight that represent all those feat, when ever you can call a buff something that represent 1% pass to 2% you miss the point if an other side something that represent 20% loose 50% power. it the very same as saying a class is nerfed because a new more powerfull equipment appears.
You make an error in the fundation of your reasoning: You are trying to measure car performance by checking the evolve of every single piece vs other piece. It can only give some result if you use a common base
No, the man's just trying to start a discussion thread. We don't know exactly how everything is going to shake out right now. But it doesn't mean we can't start discussing the changes and what they might need.
No one is talking absolutes here, but more theorizing what the changes might mean.
Let us just agree to disagree here and then move on. The fact of the matter is, whether you agree with me or not, these are the abilities, feats and pieces of gear that have had their relative effectiveness altered by mod 6. Whether or not you agree with relative effectiveness being an accurate measure of something won't change the fact that these are the things that have had their relative effectiveness altered.
I personally believe relative effectiveness is important, even if it isn't intuitive. Similar to how the answers to the monty python hall paradox or the birthday probability question aren't intuitive.
To get back to the actual relative changes, lets look at for example the value of the draconic 4 piece set bonus. In module 5 that bonus, while decent, didn't make that much of a difference because of the diminishing returns on the recharge speed increase graph as you could already reach fairly high recharge speed increase levels without it. Now, how will the draconic bonus match to where it was before, as before it was worth exactly 1157 recovery to each member in the party within range, assuming you all had 0 recovery to start off with. It will now, with the new curves be worth significantly more to each member in the party, but more importantly, as each person has a lower % recharge speed increase, the diminishing returns on that as well is lower and so you getting more benefit out of that 10%.
^^
The math/graph won't lie. We need the numbers to crunch first.
And now I will show you, with a little bit of inventiveness, (need to invent a set of theoretical gear here to make explaining this easier) as to why relative power is important.
Say we have 2 stat curves, Stat curve A and stat curve B. To make this easier, they are both linear stat curves, although the conclusions you can draw from this can be applied to any stat curve. On stat curve A, 100 recovery is worth 2% recharge speed and on stat curve B, 100 recovery is worth 1% recharge speed. Now let us invent a set of gear, say the magelord set bonus read, "Upon activating an encounter, you gain an aura that grants you and your allies 900 recovery for 6 seconds. This ability does not stack." Rather then what it currently reads. Neither of these set bonuses are particularly good, but for the purposes of an example, this will do fine. Now let us compare this 4 piece bonus to the Draconic 4 piece bonus, on both curves.
Curve A:
Magelord grants 900 recovery, worth 18% recharge speed increase.
Draconic grants 10% recharge speed increase, worth 500 recovery.
Curve B:
Magelord grants 900 recovery, worth 9% recharge speed increase.
Draconic grants 10% recharge speed increase, worth 1000 recovery.
Now, the bonus provided by the draconic set remained the same in terms of recharge speed increase on both curves, but in terms of relative effectiveness, the draconic set became better then my hypothetical magelord set in terms of what its 4 piece bonus was providing on the new curve. In other words, any % gain becomes worth more relative to what it was worth before. If we were to put it into context of the mod 5 stat curves, say we have the following situation:
Character A and Character B, have exactly the same stats only one is using my hypothetical armour and the other is wearing draconic.
Stat curve A and stat curve B, where A is the curve on live for recovery ((36x^{1.5})/(102310+x^{1.5})) and B is the curve ((18x^{1.5})/(102310+x^{1.5})) which has a y limit half of the y limit of curve A. Say from a point of argument that both CW's have a base recovery of 3k and 10 wisdom (so I don't have to factor in the bonus from wisdom), then it will look as follows:
Char A: (Magelord)
Stat curve A:
Base recovery: 3k, bonus pushes to 3.9k
Bonus recharge speed increase from recovery: 22.19->25.35%
Stat curve B:
Base recovery: 3k, bonus pushes to 3.9k
Bonus recharge speed increase from recovery: 11.09->12.68%
Char B (Draconic)
Stat curve A:
Base recovery: 3K
Bonus recharge speed from draconic converted to stats, assuming this was starting from zero otherwise you would, in case 2, quite literally go past the asymptote: 1157.
Total recharge speed increase: 22.19->32.19%
Stat curve B:
Base recovery: 3k.
Bonus recharge speed converted to stats: 2537 recovery
Total recharge speed increase: 11.09->21.09
In case 2, you can see that, without a doubt the Draconic set bonus is significantly more powerful then in case 1, its effective bonus accounting for 47% of your recharge speed increase, rather then accounting for 31% of your recharge speed increase, as in case 1. This is IRRESPECTIVE of whether or not you are in a position where your character is more powerful, the fact of the matter is, on the new curves, the draconic bonus for all intents and purposes, is more powerful.
If this little demonstration of relative power doesn't explain to you what I am trying to get at, I don't know what will. The entire point of this thread is to look at a feat/power/set of gears current strength and reevaluate it as you CAN, as I have just shown, draw PRACTICAL conclusions from doing so. Whilst we all knew in the examples about that the draconic set was obviously better then my hypothetically buffed magelord set, they are the 2 sets that have bonuses which are close enough to compare in this manner and whilst the example I gave was simplistic, it can still be extended in a broader sense to evaluate other things.
if you want numbers wait for them - if you like theorycrafting involve...
Again again again, here you imply that effectiveness of recovery is always better in v5 than in v6. i suggest you consult abaddon stat curve.
Also you imply that point in v5 and v6 have the same value. but it false again, equipment stat get increase too. mean at very same equipment a 20 kgs in v5 will be for exemple a 30 kgs in v6.
It the very same at your starting post. reduce one feat power by 50%, suppress all other feat that exist, and you jump to conclusion that your feat that left have a hudge buff because you compare with other feat that not exist anymore.
Ok, as you obviously don't understand what it means to simplify all the external veriables so I will move on. In both cases given, neither being mod 5 or mod 6 but both being hypothetical situations I invented to illustrate something, I had eliminated external factors I couldn't control. Now let us wait till we see the new things so we can draw conclusions about them, I will judge how effective they are by my methods and you can sit around and say..."You can't compare apples to oranges."