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Will we EVER move past ... all we need is dps?
doriangreigh
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 707 Arc User
I think part of the model of the game (as is I believe any game and mmo) is that you can play what you want. However there are inevitably "support" classes that just don't do raw damage but are intended to help the raw damage deals do their job and dealing raw damage.
Even with class changes it seems that more often than not people still want all DPS classes in a run for just about anything. I think E LoL and E Shores are the only real runs that encourage having other support classes as those runs are far easier with a tank and DC in the group than 5 dps classes.
My understanding is that most games (MMO or otherwise) have players that just can't get past dealing damage. But this game seems to not only encourage that but seemingly has made it necessary.
With the new paladin class coming out one can only wonder what will happen, traditionally paladins off heal so to speak but still tank and apparently have a good amount of dps so will this be the new all in one class ... will the Neverwinter game population end up finally dropping all other classes in favor of the one? It would probably help PVP.
*edit*
DPS is suppposed to be squishy, if it attacks first without letting tanky classes get some threat they pretty much die or worse cause a party wipe from the ensuing chaos. In this game all the ranged DPS classes (HR in particular) are rather bad about jumping ahead of everyone and the less experienced ones tend to spread mobs all over the place making it difficult or impossible to get them under control.
VERY few DPS players (ranged ones at least) seem to have any desire to wait. So should't the game start making it so that if the tanky class doesn't run up and get aggro all the other classes get 1 shotted because of their egotistical cavalier attitude?
Even with class changes it seems that more often than not people still want all DPS classes in a run for just about anything. I think E LoL and E Shores are the only real runs that encourage having other support classes as those runs are far easier with a tank and DC in the group than 5 dps classes.
My understanding is that most games (MMO or otherwise) have players that just can't get past dealing damage. But this game seems to not only encourage that but seemingly has made it necessary.
With the new paladin class coming out one can only wonder what will happen, traditionally paladins off heal so to speak but still tank and apparently have a good amount of dps so will this be the new all in one class ... will the Neverwinter game population end up finally dropping all other classes in favor of the one? It would probably help PVP.
*edit*
DPS is suppposed to be squishy, if it attacks first without letting tanky classes get some threat they pretty much die or worse cause a party wipe from the ensuing chaos. In this game all the ranged DPS classes (HR in particular) are rather bad about jumping ahead of everyone and the less experienced ones tend to spread mobs all over the place making it difficult or impossible to get them under control.
VERY few DPS players (ranged ones at least) seem to have any desire to wait. So should't the game start making it so that if the tanky class doesn't run up and get aggro all the other classes get 1 shotted because of their egotistical cavalier attitude?
Post edited by doriangreigh on
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didnt mind at first, as that's what the first dungeons are usually like, players still getting used to their class, trigger-happy guns-a-blazing excitement etc, but nope, currently 43 now and its still the same, literally, came out of Grey Wolf Den just before maintenance today, that run must have taken over 30 mins, with 3 wipes on last boss lol....and we HAD a tank + healer...yeah lol
Can't speak for anyone else but i ALWAYS make a point of staying behind/waiting for the tank (if there is one). Just doesn't seem right to me, i mean, why else would we have tank/cleric classes if there's no role for them?
This is only true in trinity games. Neverwinter was designed to be a non-trinity game where you didn't need a tank or healer. The mind boggling part is that they included a tank etc when they're not designed to be needed.
For example, I love trying to test myself out in mob heavy areas on my sw, by rushing in and just fighting and trying to avoid getting killed while killing. VT, for example, is a place where I can do this and survive quite nicely without a gf or dc in the group.
However, when the situation says to me that I will die if I do that, I let the gf or tankier or control classes get started first, and then I lay on the damage. Elol and eshores would be examples of this type of situation for me. Though I still like to go ahead sometimes and start putting damage down on the golems, since they are very easy to avoid.
So main thing is, I agree that it would be nice of the game to force us into requiring more tactical skill and teamwork. However, as the game currently stands, this is only necessary in a few instances for many players who are decently to well geared.
Bottom line: I agree with your final statement. Let's hope for more types of content where teamwork is necessary in the upcoming mods. Though I don't feel that one shot is the answer. Something more like how the t2 dungeons USED to feel while leveling up. Back when people actually did t2 dungeons. Or how CN/VT feels until you are well geared. Biggest thing I guess I hope for in upcoming mod is a high gs requirement dungeon that is big, fun, and requires tactics.
perfect example of the wrong people talking.
The design comes from how in trinity mmo's healers and tanks are in very very short supply typically. Because of that and not wanting to have to deal with the problems that that causes they went to an everyone can heal and tank it philosophy.
I also find it very amusing how Neverwinter inadvertently did a better job of getting away from it than a certain other MMO that was boasting about "abandoning the trinity" and yet actually failed to achieve that goal.
This will effectively make most mobs "tankier" and provide a better RoI for defensive stats.
Won't solve all problems, but it will improve the status quo.
Next step will be changing lifesteal (the Devs did promise that - but how soon?).
Why is the holy trinity horrible?
It also creates annoying entitled ****s among players.
It's an awful relict of the MMO past, just like lock-on targeting combat and fetch quests (though those aren't as old).
Same goes for needing full group to enter through queue and the inability to invite people while in a dungeon.
CW already exists.
and lifesteal = why tank?
It's not a trinity anymore.
nerf cw, now, is irrelevant-redundant too.... so...
^^^^ Something really hard. Something experienced players will wipe at. Don't even complainthat this is disheartening to new players. What's bad for new players is coming into a game where you run out of challenges in a month.
Imagine the diversity in builds and the need for synergy. Defensive Control Wizards, GWFs, HRs and TRs will riise. Suddenly, you want to bring a variety of builds just because you need them to help the party survive. Or
1. I disagree with your statement that players all want to play DPS, and that DPS is the answer to all. If that's the case, i'll just go buy a pillow, name it NeverPillow, and beat on it all day.
2. Your 3rd paragraph is a trinity itself.
"Problematics" classes with lifesteal are those with active damage - dots - without the necessity of direct contact.
So the basic problem here are two.
1 - Much of the danger stems from a continuous damage MELEE and burst damage melee of monsters.
2- explaining with an example: if you try to "Off tank" an opponent, the lifesteal will be the average of how much damage you take VS how much life you can steal.
A damage of the dot type functions like a "pool" of lifesteal. The damage will be active, and take life as you take damage if you take damage.
So the main problem here is the emphasis of the melee damage of monsters + this new dot+range-radius +control (control-range vary, but aways have A or
Briefly: is the m4/m5 "rework".
the problem of the old cw is a bizarre oneshot burst thanks to a lot of broken things. the m2 gwf, bleed... a dot HAMSTER.l:rolleyes:
ps: the old bleed is dot in a off tank.,, so... yeah.
All you need is dps
All you need is dps
All you need is dps, dps
dps is all you need
My brain is a messed up place.
Anyways Zacazu, I think that besides that it's the dot classes that get massively hurt by things like AS lag as they get hit with the fact that they get more attacks in. It's the only reason I can think of why AS still slows me down to a laggy mess every single time and others claim to never get it. So dots may be even more problematic than you think.
Errr.., Excuse me? GF doesn't mean it has to be a protector. Conqueror is a BURST damage spec. I am certain most Conquerors would not be too amazed by getting their already nerfed damage cut in half. No clue where the "a GF must be a tank" mentality has emerged from, but GF are better DD's than they are tanks. (fact)
Have a good day.
This was confirmed by one of the devs. When asked why conqueror GF's damage wasn't / won't be raised to the level of other striker class such as CW or GWF, the dev's answer was "because it's supposed to be a tank".
There you go.