First of all, GF is one of the best DPS classes in an even, 1v1 scenario.
After what other classes? "One of the best" should mean you think they are either the best or second best in 1v1. Do you think GFs are the best or second best? I mean, if you were to claim that GFs are 'third best' then even that only indicates that a GF is slightly better than half of all the other classes. Do you think GFs are the third best class in 1v1? If you don't think they are either first, second or third then what you're saying is your "best" means not as good as more than half of the other classes. So, I ask again, what classes are better than the GF in 1v1? In your opinion of course...
Oh. I must have been dreaming what i've been doing with my GF since near the beginning of Open Beta then. I wonder if i also dreamed up the other dozen or so other GF players i've also helped with their GFs that now believe they can "Tank" too?
Third, holding guard, and strafing or running to a better spot as you poke does 2 major things:
-Gradually increases threat,
-Prevents a massive loss in guard, which dragons breath is capable of doing.
Because "holding guard" while strafing/running to a better spot "gradually increases threat" and "prevents a massive loss in guard". What intoxicating substances are you consuming? Do you even play a GF? Aggravating Strike and Shield Slam 'lock' you into an animation which prevents you from moving. Additionally, if you are "holding guard" then you are indeed losing Guard Meter, irrespective of whether you are moving or not. The only way you are going to increase your Threat while simply "holding guard" is while using Aggravating Strike and that also means you are not moving.
However, strafing is sometimes the best alternative during cool downs to prevent a dump in stamina, and therefor cycle back in to continue tanking....I'm highly likely taking most of the damage when compared to other players, especially when using a 'cool down' period to stand in the red to 'tank' until ready to deal damage again.
Rather inconsistent aren't you? First it's "strafing is sometimes the best alternative during cool downs" then you're apparently "using a 'cool down' period to stand in the red to 'tank'".
Also, if you want to tell people their roles, technically GF are to focus on larger, more powerful mobs, as CC classes are meant to handle small ads.
But... weren't you just saying that a GF isn't a 'tank' and now you're saying that "technically GF are to focus on larger, more powerful mobs"? Focus on them to do what? "Tank" them?
It sounds to me like you're a Conqueror spec and have never tried anything other than attempt to DPS otherwise you may hold a different opinion. I could be wrong in my assumption though and about everything above.
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
All in all, I would have to agree with the TC. The best GF is the one who tanks and holds aggro.
Agreed! This does not mean that a GF has to be a certain build or geared a certain way either. It just means that for those not built specifically to 'tank' they will need to utilise greater skill to do so successfully.
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
"So the essence of your complaint is "why aren't people playing their characters the way that I want them to do?" Sorry, that's really not very productive. It's great that you want to play fully turtle style, but not everyone does and not every GF is specced out that way. It's particularly difficult for some of the older players who built their GF's many mods ago when a GF was a very viable DPS class and an utter monster in PvP."
this statement resembles the DC's who spec for dps- they are not fit to heal a grp and the will tell you too.I mean DC who purchase and evolve dps encounters over heal ones and spec themselves out for their damage to do more rather than their heal do more. I dont mean stacking power which is good for heals, I mean stacking dps encounters with dps paragon powers and skill trees powers. The point is GF who want to sacrifice their defense for dps is fine but shouldn't try to tank in such a fashion that it messes with everyone else game... if you are a gf that is specced for damage then you belong under the wing along side the gwf's and TR's and you can spam your encounters to your hearts content.
When you role a guardian fighter and place yourself at the face of the target people expect you to be the tank or shed aggro to someone who can be the tank in a bigger picture, not just your selfish little world where you are a tank but are unique because you can do high dps as well in a grp setting- in front of a bunch of other people.
Also my GF I created a year ago topped dps in pve settings by using ae encounters and attacking grped up mobs with at wills and can still be done that way to this day without sacrificing any tanking atrtributes and shedding your responsibilities. Yes there will be a few times that other teammates might have a red circle cast on them regardless of what you do but it is your job to control those red spots as much as possible and moving in circles is just plain.... not smart.
After what other classes? "One of the best" should mean you think they are either the best or second best in 1v1. Do you think GFs are the best or second best? I mean, if you were to claim that GFs are 'third best' then even that only indicates that a GF is slightly better than half of all the other classes. Do you think GFs are the third best class in 1v1? If you don't think they are either first, second or third then what you're saying is your "best" means not as good as more than half of the other classes. So, I ask again, what classes are better than the GF in 1v1? In your opinion of course...
Oh. I must have been dreaming what i've been doing with my GF since near the beginning of Open Beta then. I wonder if i also dreamed up the other dozen or so other GF players i've also helped with their GFs that now believe they can "Tank" too?
Because "holding guard" while strafing/running to a better spot "gradually increases threat" and "prevents a massive loss in guard". What intoxicating substances are you consuming? Do you even play a GF? Aggravating Strike and Shield Slam 'lock' you into an animation which prevents you from moving. Additionally, if you are "holding guard" then you are indeed losing Guard Meter, irrespective of whether you are moving or not. The only way you are going to increase your Threat while simply "holding guard" is while using Aggravating Strike and that also means you are not moving.
Rather inconsistent aren't you? First it's "strafing is sometimes the best alternative during cool downs" then you're apparently "using a 'cool down' period to stand in the red to 'tank'".
But... weren't you just saying that a GF isn't a 'tank' and now you're saying that "technically GF are to focus on larger, more powerful mobs"? Focus on them to do what? "Tank" them?
It sounds to me like you're a Conqueror spec and have never tried anything other than attempt to DPS otherwise you may hold a different opinion. I could be wrong in my assumption though and about everything above.
Holy ****, you completely failed to grasp anything in there. Instead, you went defensive and illogically [incorrectly] comprehended everything that I had said.
One of the best in 1v1 depending on the player and build, so results vary depending on builds and the style of the player. If you want MY opinion, it is the best in a 1v1 scenario with my setup.
GF is defined as support and secondary controller. If you think it's only for tanking, then you're ignoring 2/3 of the class. The point of strafing and blocking is to move out of the red when needed to conserve stamina.
The act of strafing and poking isn't what gradually increases threat, its the stabbing, and marking, while moving as needed to prevent a loss in stamina. This practice prevents your stamina from dropping as quickly; tactically guard, don't just hold it out. Massive amounts of damage will drop the meter.
And, my method of playing always lands me in the top for immovable object, and near the middle for damage output.
I'm NEVER inconsistent. This isn't the correct word; it's diverse. I'll take damage as much as possible, but i'll dynamically move out of the way to prevent a loss of stamina. You should have picked up on this as well. Did I not make sense to you? Here it is again:
owever, strafing is sometimes the best alternative during cool downs to prevent a dump in stamina, and therefor cycle back in to continue tanking....I'm highly likely taking most of the damage when compared to other players, especially when using a 'cool down' period to stand in the red to 'tank' until ready to deal damage again.
This means I use cooldown periods to strafe out of the way to prevent a dump in stamina. However, if I am not at risk of losing guard, I stay in and tank until I'm ready.
GF are diverse as tanking is ONE OF THE ROLES, as I stated, however not limited to. You're missing the logic here.
Right now I AM a Conqueror, and before that I was a Tactician, and before that (for a long time since beta until several months ago) was a Defender. You should have picked up on this since I stated that I used to just tank everything.
Listen man, get your reading comprehension together before you insult someone.
But, I'm not a keyboard warrior, and I like to share my knowledge on the game and the GF with you. There's always room for improvement, and I'm sure you've helped lots of people, but its obvious that I can expand your horizons on the class even further. I'm Mershed Perderders in game. Lets run together.
Mershed Perderders - GF - Guild: - Valor -
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
I'll focus on clarifying one thing instead of drawing this thread off topic.
Damage dealt to the GF while Guarding has no effect on the rate of depletion of the Guard Meter, irrespective of it being "massive" or not.
I don't necessarily believe that is what you are trying to say, yet it may certainly be taken that way.
If, however, you are trying to say that 'by avoiding red i do not need to Guard which does not deplete my Guard Meter and allows it to regenerate' then that I would consider to be accurate.
TR do the same thing, end up stealing aggro and then they run all over the place ... which is to be somewhat expected but for the love of god can we get an AGRO dump skill for these players that like to run in unload and find themselve with agro they don't want?
HR are the worst ... they don't even want to wait for melee to jump in they want to split or aim shot everything before anyone else and then get all scared running all over the map trying to run away when all they have to do is wait 3 seconds or 2 even to let someone get a couple of hits in to make it less likely the HR needs to run away.
.
I can wait for the dragon to be at 75% and still pull aggro rapidly on my SW. Moderately geared high dps classes will get aggro from anyone except exceptional tanks in my experience.
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checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
edited January 2015
To Preface My Comment: I play a 24k GF Swordmaster-Conqueror. I have all boons (yes, even the 7th ToD) + all Arti Equipment maxed (except offhand is still at lvl 54). I have been playing a GF since beta (April 2013). I do just fine in all HEs. I farmed all the black ice gear when I needed it and anything else I have needed.
The original post shows a general ignorance of the range of abilities and builds of a GF, but more importantly play style for the GF. I will not repeat the answers that some of my fellow GFs have given, but I will venture to give a reason why a GF can stay in our out of a breathe attack in some instances.
LIST of REASONS why a GF should stay in a breathe attack (or any red area):
1. To reflect damage.
2. To build aggro.
3. To build AP for the daily.
4. To keep frontal assault and main attacks directed away from party (difficult to do in open HEs because people are in every direction usually).
LIST of REASONS why a GF should move out of breathe attack (red areas):
1. Stamina is unnecessarily used up and a mob or other boss attack can do more damage without guard (e.g., the sequence of aoe attacks on the boss in epic Shores of Tuern. Try standing in the red aoe at boss and then when the boss gets to the main attack, you may have no stamina left, even with stamina building encounters, and you die). It is not always the case that staying in the red is a good idea.
2. Most breathe attacks also repel the GF and push it out of position. Sometimes a small movement left or right of the attack is sufficient to prevent the repel and still accomplish all the GF needs to do in party or HE encounters. To prevent constant spinning, try stepping alternatively to the left and right rather than in the same direction. The GF can have distance closing encounters (e.g., lunging strike, threatening rush, bull charge), but in a party, the GF may have slotted encounters or at wills that are better for the party and may not be able to close the distance as quickly as another player. In these moments the GF may lose aggro and the boss may turn to another player. A side-step to the left or right can continue to taunt/build aggro without being pushed out of position.
3. Timing of the guard sometimes is off. There, I said it. Sometimes a GF can be in the red area/breathe attack and it does not matter. With lag issues in the game, I find that my timing varies somewhat with reacting to the red areas. However, I can side step in time and still keep all of my stamina.
4. Staying in guard and overhand attacking is not as beneficial for certain paragon trees and artifact weapon choices as a simple side-step and continuing with other at-wills.
5. Standing in the red area may be a fight against DoT damage (e.g., acid, gas, and fire breathe attacks). Thus, the GF can see his hit points tick down (I am speaking generally) while standing in the red area. In contradistiction to what some of my GFs have answered, the amount of damage no longer drains the meter. The meter is purely time based. But, the meter no longer blocks 100% damage, but permits damage to go through.
6. Reflected damage (via guarded assault) and SoS no longer builds AP (nerf implemented right after mod 4). So the pros 1 and 2 above are in contradistinction to each other.
Comments
I hope I can be cool like you some day.
It sounds to me like you're a Conqueror spec and have never tried anything other than attempt to DPS otherwise you may hold a different opinion. I could be wrong in my assumption though and about everything above.
Yes it is. I Block it successfully every time.
I completely agree.
Holy ****, you completely failed to grasp anything in there. Instead, you went defensive and illogically [incorrectly] comprehended everything that I had said.
One of the best in 1v1 depending on the player and build, so results vary depending on builds and the style of the player. If you want MY opinion, it is the best in a 1v1 scenario with my setup.
GF is defined as support and secondary controller. If you think it's only for tanking, then you're ignoring 2/3 of the class. The point of strafing and blocking is to move out of the red when needed to conserve stamina.
The act of strafing and poking isn't what gradually increases threat, its the stabbing, and marking, while moving as needed to prevent a loss in stamina. This practice prevents your stamina from dropping as quickly; tactically guard, don't just hold it out. Massive amounts of damage will drop the meter.
And, my method of playing always lands me in the top for immovable object, and near the middle for damage output.
I'm NEVER inconsistent. This isn't the correct word; it's diverse. I'll take damage as much as possible, but i'll dynamically move out of the way to prevent a loss of stamina. You should have picked up on this as well. Did I not make sense to you? Here it is again:
This means I use cooldown periods to strafe out of the way to prevent a dump in stamina. However, if I am not at risk of losing guard, I stay in and tank until I'm ready.
GF are diverse as tanking is ONE OF THE ROLES, as I stated, however not limited to. You're missing the logic here.
Right now I AM a Conqueror, and before that I was a Tactician, and before that (for a long time since beta until several months ago) was a Defender. You should have picked up on this since I stated that I used to just tank everything.
Listen man, get your reading comprehension together before you insult someone.
But, I'm not a keyboard warrior, and I like to share my knowledge on the game and the GF with you. There's always room for improvement, and I'm sure you've helped lots of people, but its obvious that I can expand your horizons on the class even further. I'm Mershed Perderders in game. Lets run together.
I'll focus on clarifying one thing instead of drawing this thread off topic.
Damage dealt to the GF while Guarding has no effect on the rate of depletion of the Guard Meter, irrespective of it being "massive" or not.
I don't necessarily believe that is what you are trying to say, yet it may certainly be taken that way.
If, however, you are trying to say that 'by avoiding red i do not need to Guard which does not deplete my Guard Meter and allows it to regenerate' then that I would consider to be accurate.
I can wait for the dragon to be at 75% and still pull aggro rapidly on my SW. Moderately geared high dps classes will get aggro from anyone except exceptional tanks in my experience.
The original post shows a general ignorance of the range of abilities and builds of a GF, but more importantly play style for the GF. I will not repeat the answers that some of my fellow GFs have given, but I will venture to give a reason why a GF can stay in our out of a breathe attack in some instances.
LIST of REASONS why a GF should stay in a breathe attack (or any red area):
1. To reflect damage.
2. To build aggro.
3. To build AP for the daily.
4. To keep frontal assault and main attacks directed away from party (difficult to do in open HEs because people are in every direction usually).
LIST of REASONS why a GF should move out of breathe attack (red areas):
1. Stamina is unnecessarily used up and a mob or other boss attack can do more damage without guard (e.g., the sequence of aoe attacks on the boss in epic Shores of Tuern. Try standing in the red aoe at boss and then when the boss gets to the main attack, you may have no stamina left, even with stamina building encounters, and you die). It is not always the case that staying in the red is a good idea.
2. Most breathe attacks also repel the GF and push it out of position. Sometimes a small movement left or right of the attack is sufficient to prevent the repel and still accomplish all the GF needs to do in party or HE encounters. To prevent constant spinning, try stepping alternatively to the left and right rather than in the same direction. The GF can have distance closing encounters (e.g., lunging strike, threatening rush, bull charge), but in a party, the GF may have slotted encounters or at wills that are better for the party and may not be able to close the distance as quickly as another player. In these moments the GF may lose aggro and the boss may turn to another player. A side-step to the left or right can continue to taunt/build aggro without being pushed out of position.
3. Timing of the guard sometimes is off. There, I said it. Sometimes a GF can be in the red area/breathe attack and it does not matter. With lag issues in the game, I find that my timing varies somewhat with reacting to the red areas. However, I can side step in time and still keep all of my stamina.
4. Staying in guard and overhand attacking is not as beneficial for certain paragon trees and artifact weapon choices as a simple side-step and continuing with other at-wills.
5. Standing in the red area may be a fight against DoT damage (e.g., acid, gas, and fire breathe attacks). Thus, the GF can see his hit points tick down (I am speaking generally) while standing in the red area. In contradistiction to what some of my GFs have answered, the amount of damage no longer drains the meter. The meter is purely time based. But, the meter no longer blocks 100% damage, but permits damage to go through.
6. Reflected damage (via guarded assault) and SoS no longer builds AP (nerf implemented right after mod 4). So the pros 1 and 2 above are in contradistinction to each other.
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
At level 30 or whenever it opens up, it's convenient if someone else has aggro.