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Why do classes seem so topsy turvey.
ltgamesttv
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
A CW in cloth armor is tankier than a GWF wearing mail. A TR using daggers has more CC than a "control" wizard. A GWF who wields a two handed sword does more damage waving it above his head and shouting than he does hitting people with it, a DC can out dps and kill a CW. These are just a few examples of head scratchers in PVP these days.
When I first started playing TR (my first toon in open Beta) they were OP because of their damage but they were squishy if you could get a hold of one (they wear like leather jerkins after all). When I first started playing my GWF they were tanky and could use their sword "defensively" as Sentinels. When I first started playing my CW they were nuke class and could bring down unrivaled DPS at the cost of being extreme squish. When I first started playing my DC they could heal really well and were tanky just because of their heals alone. When I first played my GF they were masters of using their shield and well, helm in order to control targets and deal some nasty burst damage. Most of these things made sense until they started hybriding characters.
My GWF started throwing an imaginary shield at opponents with FLS. My TR's damage was nerfed so I artifically made him smarter so he could stay in stealth with faster encounter rotations at the expense of the little damage he could do. My CW became more adept at controlling and did much diminished damage thus making him support more than nuke. My GF became useless in PVP for at least 2 mods as they could neither deal damage nor tank effectively.
Long and short of it I feel like some of the independent skills and features that distinguished one class from another, and made each class valuable in a PVP environment, have been blended together. Every class could bring something special to the playing field at one point in time and now all classes seem to be borrowing from the other classes specialties.
This is my take on things and it's really open to interpretation, does anyone else feel this way or do you have a different opinion? Feel free to comment.
Thanks for your time.
When I first started playing TR (my first toon in open Beta) they were OP because of their damage but they were squishy if you could get a hold of one (they wear like leather jerkins after all). When I first started playing my GWF they were tanky and could use their sword "defensively" as Sentinels. When I first started playing my CW they were nuke class and could bring down unrivaled DPS at the cost of being extreme squish. When I first started playing my DC they could heal really well and were tanky just because of their heals alone. When I first played my GF they were masters of using their shield and well, helm in order to control targets and deal some nasty burst damage. Most of these things made sense until they started hybriding characters.
My GWF started throwing an imaginary shield at opponents with FLS. My TR's damage was nerfed so I artifically made him smarter so he could stay in stealth with faster encounter rotations at the expense of the little damage he could do. My CW became more adept at controlling and did much diminished damage thus making him support more than nuke. My GF became useless in PVP for at least 2 mods as they could neither deal damage nor tank effectively.
Long and short of it I feel like some of the independent skills and features that distinguished one class from another, and made each class valuable in a PVP environment, have been blended together. Every class could bring something special to the playing field at one point in time and now all classes seem to be borrowing from the other classes specialties.
This is my take on things and it's really open to interpretation, does anyone else feel this way or do you have a different opinion? Feel free to comment.
Thanks for your time.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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Dungeon and Dragons never had the "holy trinity" of dps/tank/healer. many of the interesting class skills were out of combat things like pick pockets, reading magic, talking to spirits and stuff of that nature.
But in particular, clerics were always a powerful combat class, since they had God on their side. They could really dish out damage, the harm spell would steal all hitpoints by just a touch. So this idea that clerics have to be healers is completely misguided!
second problem is that things aren't tested it out at TOP . i mean for example they dont know/tested a TR with 8-9k power while using SE.
they only tested with 3-4k power in mind.
so i think there should be limits at top tier you have some limits of the damage you can produce and decrease that damage until you hit the bottom of scurb level.
the third problem is about the roles of each class. they should do something about that.
this game can be played smart, not only hack and slash.
but to be honest i do think and hope this game is almost there to attain balance.
we only need to have faith. problem is it takes too long.
but i think mod6 will be awesome, i think its about time to make this game SHINE as it worth, and not talkin about the game lore, talkin about of the game mechanics.
But another problem is they will bring new feature and some of them wont work as intended, while there are things that dont work from mod1 until now.
so i think they should bet and give attention to this mod 6.
To me, that all means it is simply too disorganized as a system. Wayyyyyy too much is jammed into level 60. Level 60 is a total rats nest of capstone feats, boons, gear, enchants, artifacts....any kind of organization of that mess, like if the current level 60 spectrum was tiered progressively from level 60-70, would go a long long way.
its lvl 60, we all know when you get to lvl 60 thats when the game starts.
doing PVP with friends/gearing/doing dungeons
instead of doing more levels
they've added the boons.
i dont think there will be anymore boons in mod6. neither a level cap increase.
i think they will do someth like a TASK system. or Achivement system.
cause what i think if they push more on level cappin it will divide the pve community and pvp community.
so we need to wait and hope.
Clerics should be able to dish out dps. I'm not too knowledgable about 4.0 but some 3.5 spells that let a cleric deal massive pain to enemies.
Slay Living, Blade Barrier, Harm, Destruction, Earthquake, Fire Storm, Symbol of Death, Energy Drain, Implosion, Storm of Vengeance
Using that kind of a spell list a Cleric could leave a trail of death behind them and heal their allies the whole time. Combine that with the fact they should be able to be in Heavy Armor with a shield and mace.............
I don't think the community would be any more divided than it is with the previous levels. They put way too much into level 60. Truly massive amounts of gear, boons, capstones, more than a dozen different kinds of currencies, many many artifacts...wayy too much stuff that goes across wayyy to wide of a scale of power. That scale should be across at least 5 levels, not all contained in one. Unless there was a truly uniform standard of character power after 60, so you know that once you hit 60, character progress is not measured by level but by the other thing. Now it is GS and the thing is such a mess that even that is debatable.
Hey man +1 to the Cleric with a shield and mace, this sound more like a Paladin which I would love to see implemented.
DPS cleric with a Holy Symbol doing more damage than a Wizard? Meh I dunno about that though.
I've actually made some suggestions in the past about this.
That 'ancient' image of the very first, battle-cleric depictions with non-edged weapons (as if caving in someone's skull with a metal club is less cruel than cutting him with a blade...lol) and shields, is nowadays called "Classic Clerics" or "Original Clerics" in D&D4th/5th, and IIRC portrayed as a sub-class called "Templar".
If it ever comes out in NW, it'd probably be something akin to the GWF-GF relationship... as in Templar-Divine Cleric, IMO.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Since we are comparing it to true AD&D now to justify a DC doing ridiculous amounts of damage we should remind ourselves that "Harm" "Storm of Venegence" and the like could be used once per 24hrs not once every 6 seconds . Gary Gygax is probably rolling over in his grave right about now .
Pesonaly I would love to see more of the holy trinity! I am a pve geek and belive in each class has a role to play!
That seems a bit far off.
I highly doubt a CW does less dmg than a cleric.
i have seen it a 20k dc out dpsing a 19k cw
Ah - I remember those early days. The classes seemed far more balanced then than they are now.
I really think it comes down to the Devs trying to please the players and creating a large series of various buffs and nerfs to classes in response to PvP complaints over the past year or so.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
I have seen quite a few DC's specced for damage top a CW's damage . From what I've been seeing in CN and VT only the SW is beating a DC in damage .
In Pve maybe.
Wasn't the entire point of 4th edition to make DnD more like WoW because people lost interest in the IP? =P
Dont forget people, we are playing a game that takes 1 or 2 days to reach end level, so everything is going to be based on what you do after level 60 and 1 year ago people were complaining that there wasnt enough end content... now i see people complaining that there is too much end content?
I think it seems unbalanced when you are up against someone you would normally kill and move on to another person- but it isn't that way when you come across that same person who has more boons and an understanding of builds and how to implement encounters and such.
WoW is dead, why would anyone want to replicate WoW?
WoW... ever see a gf out dps everyone in a dungeon? its all about AE's in the right places/right time. This explains why you see DC and CW constantly spam knockback every chance they get even though the teammembers are asking them not to as it messes up the gathering process- they are simply trying to get paingiver by dishing out area effect damage to all enemies in that immediate area in every situation provided.
I am not impressed by paingiver anymore- I am impressed by people who know how and are willing to play as a team.
OMG this person gets it
After many years of MMORPG, I have learnt playing as a team is more rewarding and results in more consisent wins, you are on the right track.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
I consistently see DPS DC far exceed the damage of a CW, with only the SW sometimes besting them in the 'buggy zones'. Count the DPS DC at around 21k dps on average with the bulk of the damage usually coming from chains/daunting/fire at about 30%/20%/20%. I don't know if they should stand out as a premier damage class or not as such is not for me to say. It does seem a bit odd to excel this well in damage and retain the high degree of healing/innate survivability/utility that they posses when compared to say a GWF or CW. I think like in the case of the TR that the DC also has some adjustments that are necessary, but again that isn't any more than my opinion on the matter.
The game has changed to a point where the distinctive traits of each class and path are blurry and confused.
Devs tried to make GFs more tank and GWFs less of a tank, and they succeeded in it (before mod4, a sentinel could tank more than a GWF in PvP at least, after the changes GFs feel like real tanks while GWFs feel less tanky. But then they went off with DPS. GF DPS was buffed and in can deal in PvP comparable burst to a GWF (see GODMODE) while GWF DPS was linked to an absurd stacks system, and then piercing damage/ umitigated damage turned GWFs, whose tankyness was all based on DR, to paper warriors who are out-survived by GFs, DCs, TRs, HRs and roughly as survivable as a squishy ranged class (keeping in mind a ranged class is ranged, while GWFs fight in melee range and are easy targets).
We got to a point where HRs could tank DIRECTLY through deflect and self heals, more than gFs and GWFs. It's more balanced now, but still, HRs can potentially survive more than melee tanks.
DPS DC deals DPS way above a DPS GWF and up there with pure DPS ranged classes, where they should be a balance of DPS and survivability through self healings.
Unmitigated damage should be either removed or tweaked.
Then each class should be changed keeping in mind their role, with a cap to survivability for pure DPS classes, a cap to DPS for pure tanks, and a balance of the two for semi-tanks and healers. Roughly, a class with cloth should never survive more than a class with leather, who should survive less than a class with chain-mail, who should survive less than a class with plate. And then DPS adjusted to match each class survivability in the same way.
CWs should deal heavy damage but have it linked to CC so if you raise DPS, your CC decreases. TRs and HRs should deal medium-heavy damage, GWF and DCs medium damage, GF low damage.
Something like this. Then with each path you can get close to another class but never breaking out of your role bonds.
So a GWF tank build will never get tankier than a GF no matter what, and a GF DPS build will never deal more damage than a GWF, not even a sentinel.
Then you give each class utility specific to them.
I think devs failed in that and now it's confused.
Yes but the Gwf runs faster.
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
Yeah,IMO burst dps spec is the best for GF in pvp, otherwise you can provide only some useless CC and still as "meatshield" you are more like "meat with no shield" and it seems to surprise players when you hit hard crits on them, almost feels like balanced, when you crush their skulls with anvil of doom
people like this reach end game and switch around already known info and they feel they now about stacking attribute and stat. if you know so much and are so opinionated then make your own game... heh... it wont happen... and im sure no one here in the forums can either or will.
I see NW as a chance to have that freedom to build what you want and not be restricted to role. Although i stick to practical and traditional class rolling i appreciate that NW has afforded this option into the game.
well speeking as a cw i do not use a knock back except for oprsive force and this is used in place of arcane singularty since the devs nerfed arcane singularity
i do understand the gwf tr and gf but this is why it is used
i would also like the tr and gwf to understand there running way ahead of the cws and dcs is for the same reason,and you know it, and it kills alot of cws
so can we say everyone needs to work as a team