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Cryptic Wants Your Feedback on The Foundry

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  • idiotamongusidiotamongus Member Posts: 70 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Partially false. To open Foundry slots in STO requires refined dilithium (the equivalent of AD) but does not require real money...

    Correct me if I'm wrong here:

    To use the Foundry, you are required to make a Foundry character. To do this you must buy a Foundry slot. To buy a Foundry slot you need 10,000 refined Dithilium but to refine Dithilium you need a veteran status which only subscription players can get.

    You're still essentially paying for it, no?
    Neverwinter
    STO
    Smite
    SWTOR
  • vasdamasvasdamas Member Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    In my opinion, the game after you have achieved all boons/the thing you wanted is about foundry. What I always wanted for foundry is an option to make your quest hardcore because I really like running some horror themed foundries with 40 lvl characters and with 20 level difference. I mean, I form a party of 4 40 lvls (+/- some levels usually of course) and 1 60 lvl afk so when we run the quest the adds are 60 lvl and often just oneshot you :D

    Of course no mulharand or weapon enchantments, just green gear + maybe some rank 4s and 1 artifact but not more. Such foundry runs is usually the only challenge for me in PvE :D
  • eldartheldarth Member Posts: 4,494 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    vasdamas wrote: »
    In my opinion, the game after you have achieved all boons/the thing you wanted is about foundry.

    Exactly.

    What level are the vast majority of players? endgame 60+
    Where is the most demand for additional content? endgame 60+
    What type of play is most demanded for endgame? PvP

    What's one of the top 4 featured selling points of the game? Foundry
    What can Foundry add to endgame 60+ and PvP content? NOTHING.

    350px-train_wreck_at_montparnasse_1895_fail.jpg
  • matthiasthehun76matthiasthehun76 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,183 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Hi!

    My honest answer is, sadly the only foundries people do in my neighborhood are the ones where they can exploit aka bot easy RP dropping maps.

    Foundry as it was back when game was still new is non existent!
    The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
    Robert E. Lee

    I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
    Winston Churchill

    The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
    David Icke

  • mrgiggles651mrgiggles651 Member Posts: 790 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    spirals999 wrote: »
    Hello foundry community!

    I am Spirals. I'm a sound designer for Cryptic studios. I am trying to do some research on The Foundry and gather data concerning the player community's thoughts on the design and implementation of The Foundry as a medium for user generated content (UGC). We are asking for your help in considering how we might improve UGC now and in future Cryptic projects.

    Please take a few minutes to answer the following questions:

    What do you feel The Foundry does right? What feels good to you and what do you have fun doing? Why are you glad The Foundry was implemented in Neverwinter?
    It lets people tell stories.
    spirals999 wrote: »
    How do you feel The Foundry fell short? What do you absolutely hate doing in The Foundry? What are elements of The Foundry that make you wish it was never implemented in Neverwinter?

    " What are elements of The Foundry that make you wish it was never implemented in Neverwinter?"

    Basic functionality was not included. Basic functionality is a “wishlist” thread, things like timers, boolean logic, etc etc (there's long lists of this basic stuff, going back at least to beta if not alpha) were not implemented. The promotional language from Cryptic was that Foundry could make anything that existed in official content, but people have already shown (in threads specifically for it) where this currently requested functionality existed even during beta of the game (such as the timers used in the Neverdeath Graveyard).

    Game updates break or alter existing content (increasing item costs drove maps over limit, base map changes, the walkmesh of objects being changed and breaking quests that required being able to walk places on them, the tree map fiasco, orange blossom vines, etc etc). There’s a long lists of bugs that could be fixed “by an intern with five minutes” such as missing descriptions and misspelling of objects making them hard to find in Foundry. These “intern and five minutes” bugs were compiled and listed in their own bug report thread long ago, and the fact they weren’t fixed gives the impression to the community that Cryptic does not care about the Foundry.

    Author cliques and secret organized downvoting during beta/early release. Authors would get near the best list and all of a sudden be hit with a huge string of one star votes. There were plenty of threads on this. The people that stood up against this got harassed in the forums as well. Nothing was done about the toxic community, cliques, and organized downvoting, so this discouraged prospective authors and made existing authors quit. Authors who didn’t know what was going on were being told their ideas were just terrible when they saw those strings of one star votes, when their stories may have well been very good and/or creative. This discouraged even more authors.

    Various “metrics aren’t there” statements from Cryptic employees didn’t help either (We’ve heard this “metrics” stuff both from STO and Neverwinter people). I give them points for honesty there. It told us that no matter how much the devs may love the Foundry, it’s all about sales. Not fun, not creativity, not making polished games, sales. It was apparent from day one of Foundry beta it was a marketing bullet point that was being given short shrift (no 3d editor, seriously? At least we finally got that, it should have been in from day one of alpha).

    So overall better to never have Foundry than have the broken, author destroying thing that exists (and it gets further broken as the game grows older, Eldarth’s bug threads show more bugs being added than resolved). Unfortunately the Foundry is in a state where fixing a lot of the bigger things will break the Rube Goldberg contraptions authors were forced to resort to. Better to never have had a Foundry than the company reputation harming one we got.
    spirals999 wrote: »
    What would you add to The Foundry to attract more authors and incentivize content creation? How would you like to see The Foundry implemented?

    You don’t need to attract more authors. You need to attract fewer, more competent, authors; Cryptic’s CEO said this in a game developers conference speech (which is online, and has been linked to in these forums on more than one occasion) on UGC long before Neverwinter was released.
    spirals999 wrote: »
    What are some other games you feel got UGC implementation right? What can Cryptic Studios learn from the UGC tools of these other games?

    The Neverwinter Nights community has been running mini mmos with UGC for nearly 14 years now. There's a reason so many people in this thread have cited it as the example, because their community long ago figured out how to do it. Cryptic’s CEO’s conference speech specifically used Neverwinter Nights as an example of UGC getting it right.

    The game has been out for a year and a half, if Neverwinter was going to be a UGC centered game the above questions should have been asked three years ago when the game was in the design phase. It’s too late for Neverwinter, it’s very difficult to integrate after the fact things that aren’t in the game design, and enough authors were burned that it has probably seriously harmed UGC for future Cryptic UGC including mmos.
    spirals999 wrote: »
    Thank you so much for your time.
    - Spirals

    Thank you for asking.
    I wasted five million AD promoting the Foundry.
  • sockmunkeysockmunkey Member Posts: 4,622 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Correct me if I'm wrong here:

    To use the Foundry, you are required to make a Foundry character. To do this you must buy a Foundry slot. To buy a Foundry slot you need 10,000 refined Dithilium but to refine Dithilium you need a veteran status which only subscription players can get.

    You're still essentially paying for it, no?

    No, you don't need a subscription to refine. A subscription only allows you to refine more per day.
  • imaginaerum1imaginaerum1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 378 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    free2pay wrote: »
    The rewards from Foundry have to be unique to differentiate them from epic dungeons or PvP. Disable all resource nodes and refinement drops. Everything that drops in Foundry quests should be BtC. Instead make mobs drop BtC crafting currencies. These new crafting currencies would allow players to craft customized stats not available elsewhere on a blank piece of equipment through a new Crafting NPC. And the gear has to be BtC so it can't be traded. This new crafting npc will also allow players to salvage green/blue gears for blank equipment or crafting materials.

    XP gain inside Foundry has to be capped too.

    I don't see this happening.

    The rewards from Foundry don't need to be particularly unique. They just need to be on par with. If people can get the same level of reward from Foundry that they can from epic dungeons or PVP (especially for those of us who hate PVP), a chunk of them will start playing Foundry quests to get those rewards.
    Instead of doing the same epic dungeons over and over (and over and over) you can do a new quest pretty much every time, and still get the same level of rewards.

    As to the rest of it...
    * We never have had the ability to place nodes, so I'm not sure why you feel it's a problem that needs to be addressed.
    * There already is a limitation on XP, to help prevent power leveling exploit quests. It went in back when the exploit-of-the-day was a bunch of ogres standing at the top of a cliff above a death plane.
    * We can't even get them to add a lot of basic details, and things like a "sit" animation, and you want them to add an entirely new crafting system? I don't see that happening. Pretty much ever.
  • spirals999spirals999 Member, NW_CrypticDev, Cryptic Developers Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    No offense...but before I answer any of your questions, would you mind answering just a few of mine first?

    Sure Guitarzan698. No problem. However first I'd like to say this:

    You're frustrated. Angry. That much comes across in your email. I get it. Since launch the community has been shedding light on bugs in The Foundry with very little feedback or action on the devs part. And here I come, a sound designer with Cryptic who is asking questions about things that have been discussed at length already. You probably see this as a pointless thread that will probably get as much traction as previous threads in actually getting anything done.

    I was and am an avid gamer. I've felt the same frustrations. I know it feels like you're screaming into a black hole. It doesn't help that there is a curtain that separates what you see as a player and fan from what I see as a player turned developer. This is an impressive community and you understand a lot of the reasons why we can't do certain things (monetization for example).

    It may feel sometimes like we are adversaries. We aren't. Nobody is out to victimize or anger or frustrate anyone else. I admit that we fall short in making you, the player, the fan, feel heard and listened to. We fall short in making you and some of the features of our games feel cared about. This is something we need to improve on.

    Okay I'll answer some of your questions now.
    Question One... as a "sound designer for cryptic studios" are we to believe that you have any sway what-so-ever concerning PWE's handling of this product?

    No. You aren't expected to believe anything. But I will say this:

    PWE is the funding. As long as we are doing well PWE is fairly hands off in how Cryptic handles Neverwinter.

    So now that PWE is out of the way let's look at Cryptic. Cryptic is a company of 150 to 200 people. These numbers are divided into different teams working on each product plus core teams that work on all of the products (Audio is a core team for example). Let's now do a thought experiment and say that the entire Neverwinter team is comprised of 30 to 50 people. I've been working here for 6 years. We are living breathing human beings who see each other and talk to each other every day. We respect and listen to eachother's input and opinions.

    Given the open door environment we foster here in the studio and the relationships we foster as we work together it is possible for ANY Cryptic employee to gain the ear of the leads working on Neverwinter or any other project.
    Question Two... are we to believe that PWE does not know what problems exist in the foundry or what the authors want? ( uh.. bosses, timers, 'or' logic, REWARDS FOR PLAYING FOUNDRY MISSIONS, etc... , etc... )... these items have been WELL documented many, many, many, many times.

    No. My intention was never to imply that Cryptic was asking because we didn't know about the problems. My intentions were:

    #1) Try to collect the data into one place that is up to date and easily accessible

    #2) Introduce myself to the community and communicate the idea that someone is at least listening.
    Question Three... is what we say in answer to your questions going to make any difference at all in how Perfect World Entertainment handles the foundry?

    As I stated earlier PWE doesn't handle The Foundry. Cryptic does. The Neverwinter team does.

    Are your answers going to make a difference? I don't know. That's an impossible question to answer.

    I can't comment on whether or not they will make a difference but I can at least say that they will be heard by team members here who can make a difference.
    Thank you so much for your time...

    Guitarzan698

    You're welcome.

    In conclusion I'd like to maybe offer some perspective from a developer's side:

    Adding UGC as Robust as The Foundry to an MMO was a fairly unexplored landscape in the world of game development. We weren't going to get it right straight out the gate. We've all been playing MMOs for a long time and we know its very rare for a developer to get everything right from the get-go.

    Our fault was that we didn't keep iterating on The Foundry. The reason, as you have heard before was that the leads weren't seeing the numbers they wanted to in the metrics.

    Consider this:
    Say you're a lead on Neverwinter. The data shows that putting time and resources into new content, new adventure zones, races, classes, companions, systems, crafting etc. brings in a return on that investment, while putting time and resources into The Foundry does not. Data shows that you have to put out new content every 2 to 4 months in order to maintain retention. Not only do you have to put out new content but you have to fix existing bugs, battle exploits, and implement new development tools and systems in order to support those new systems, classes, boss fights, localization, console support, and events.

    You like being employed. You need to show your bosses that Neverwinter is successful so that you can continue being employed. Do you put your limited resources into something you know will bring in a return? Or do you possibly put your livelihood on the line and take a risk to improve The Foundry which historically has performed poorly and may or may not respond well to your changes?

    Developers never set out to intentionally frustrate their players. We want to make you happy but we have limited resources and we like to keep our coworkers employed and making games. We also answer to our publishers, who answer to a board of directors. We also answer to Wizards of the Coast and CBS (STO).

    Ultimately however, we answer to you, our customers. That's what we need to work together to show Neverwinter. That if we answer to The Foundry community first, we can find creative solutions that make everybody happy.
  • lewstelamon01lewstelamon01 Member Posts: 7,415 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Correct me if I'm wrong here:

    To use the Foundry, you are required to make a Foundry character. To do this you must buy a Foundry slot. To buy a Foundry slot you need 10,000 refined Dithilium but to refine Dithilium you need a veteran status which only subscription players can get.

    You're still essentially paying for it, no?

    No, you do not need to have a veteran status to refine dilithium. The veteran status only allows players to refine more dilithium per day (and only 1k per more day than the standard 8k daily cap at that).
    ROLL TIDE ROLL

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  • angryspriteangrysprite Member Posts: 4,982 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    spirals999 wrote: »
    You like being employed. You need to show your bosses that Neverwinter is successful ... [snip]

    I and many others have always understood this, many people do not; thank you for explaining it plainly.

    I can only speak for myself: in short my own "frustration" with the Foundry (Neverwinter and STO, even) is the lack of easy to find "good" quest/missions that we like - as a player. Players mostly play the Featured stuff, and a lot of that is the same-old monster-bash. So, from a player standpoint I want it to be *easier* to find the stuff I like, it doesn't even have to be that well-authored.

    My suggestion: change "tags" to be AUTHOR-SET, not player-set. The author knows best what his intention is in terms of Quest genre.

    As an author my frustration is in the (soft) requirement that it include monster-bashes... there are no real player rewards (loot, titles, any-old-reward/acknowledgement) unless they kill stuff (loot drops/XP). I am already limited in that I can't place skill nodes or any of that stuff. I want to create a great puzzle with traps (not asset traps, but locked rooms, etc.) with only a few mobs - I can't because there is no reward to playing my quest / I'll get hammered in the comments/star-ratings.

    My suggestion: find away to allow players to receive loot/rewards that don't require killing things.

    I know: a lot easier said than done; exploit-prevention, coding, etc, etc.

    My list could go on, but for myself: these are the two things I want most.

    Will such ever happen? I know better than hope for it (no sarcasm, I reiterate: I understand how things work). My 'hope' is that I'll be pleasantly surprised if anything like this comes to pass.

    Hey, all you Devs are stuck between a rock and a hard place. I, at least, get it. Thank you for communicating with us.
  • eldartheldarth Member Posts: 4,494 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    My top two:
    1. Complete exploit prevention (thread explains EASY implementation)
    2. Zen temporary use and coupons droppable or placeable in foundries. Instant ROI and visible foundry profitability metrics.

    These two would unlock everything else.
  • nurmoodnurmood Member Posts: 342 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    spirals999 wrote: »
    Ultimately however, we answer to you, our customers. That's what we need to work together to show Neverwinter. That if we answer to The Foundry community first, we can find creative solutions that make everybody happy.

    well written - thank you for the insight!
    Return of Investment:

    I mean its hard to proove - but 1 feature that doesnt generate cash directly can generate cash indirectly. If your Superiors want to see the specific Return of Investment regarding each single feature you are quite restricted. But they also might miss out on an indirect cashflow.

    Problem is however if your superiors trust you with new ideas and you put hours and hours into a feature that does not generate sufficient money you might end up loosing ur job..!?
  • apocrs1980apocrs1980 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Silverstars Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    spirals999 wrote: »
    Consider this:
    Say you're a lead on Neverwinter. The data shows that putting time and resources into new content, new adventure zones, races, classes, companions, systems, crafting etc. brings in a return on that investment, while putting time and resources into The Foundry does not. Data shows that you have to put out new content every 2 to 4 months in order to maintain retention. Not only do you have to put out new content but you have to fix existing bugs, battle exploits, and implement new development tools and systems in order to support those new systems, classes, boss fights, localization, console support, and events.

    You like being employed. You need to show your bosses that Neverwinter is successful so that you can continue being employed. Do you put your limited resources into something you know will bring in a return? Or do you possibly put your livelihood on the line and take a risk to improve The Foundry which historically has performed poorly and may or may not respond well to your changes?

    Thank you for the detailed reply, I would say that most of us understand this, it's just the way business is. However, I wonder...how you could actually prove the numbers in the matrix are there for the Foundry when there really isn't anything to do with the Foundry that involves micro transactions? You have the zen store, which supplies Players with items for the game...if the numbers are not there because of total play time from your player base then the solution is obvious, give better rewards.

    I also like to point out that if a player is attempting to finish a Foundry quest and purchases items to help them complete the quest, how would that reflect in the matrix and how would you know? numbers are numbers, but I think there are many variables which can skew them.

    There is already a method which is suggested that can offer better rewards to players completing Foundry quests. The Featured Quests! Since you already have some one viewing and deciding which quests should be featured or not, it shouldn't difficult to add some programming to have the end chest loot table offer a BtA or BtC reward that is on par with everything else the regular game offers. This is a great way to ensure there is not abuse to the foundry reward system, it's fair as featured quests are done by you guys, and it also promotes and challenges the community to make quality foundrys so that they get picked for featuring.

    The other way is to again implement very difficult boss encounters and have them drop loot on par with Dungeon runs when featured. This is also a huge win for you guys as you will have players working diligently and hard at creating some of the most masterful dungeons for you, weather you choose to implement them in game or not is another story.

    This also holds true for PvP maps, how are we to prove the numbers are there when we are not offered the chance? Whilst I understand it's someone's livelihood on the line, we would have never had the great things we have today, including the wonderful world of video games if people never though to take risks.

    Do the things I suggested, it shouldn't take much Dev time to give a new loot table to the end chests of the featured quests, and trust me, you guys will see the numbers and can prove to PWE that the Foundry truly is a viable feature which will not only commit to the longevity of the game but the teams careers as well.

    By the way, for this to work you would have to stop messing with the Foundry code, every time something is changed it breaks the quests, and since we can not fix the featured quests well... it just leaves you with a list of featured proverbial poo.

    There are my two cents, when you implement bosses let me know, I'll be back to build dungeons for you guys. :P
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  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    spirals999 wrote: »
    Consider this:
    Say you're a lead on Neverwinter. The data shows that putting time and resources into new content, new adventure zones, races, classes, companions, systems, crafting etc. brings in a return on that investment, while putting time and resources into The Foundry does not. Data shows that you have to put out new content every 2 to 4 months in order to maintain retention. Not only do you have to put out new content but you have to fix existing bugs, battle exploits, and implement new development tools and systems in order to support those new systems, classes, boss fights, localization, console support, and events.

    You like being employed. You need to show your bosses that Neverwinter is successful so that you can continue being employed. Do you put your limited resources into something you know will bring in a return? Or do you possibly put your livelihood on the line and take a risk to improve The Foundry which historically has performed poorly and may or may not respond well to your changes?

    Developers never set out to intentionally frustrate their players. We want to make you happy but we have limited resources and we like to keep our coworkers employed and making games. We also answer to our publishers, who answer to a board of directors. We also answer to Wizards of the Coast and CBS (STO).

    Ultimately however, we answer to you, our customers. That's what we need to work together to show Neverwinter. That if we answer to The Foundry community first, we can find creative solutions that make everybody happy.

    First,

    Thanks for posting. Im sure you are aware of all this: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-01-05-perfect-world-may-go-private-in-2015

    And this: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-11-26-us-operations-drag-on-perfect-worlds-q3-performance

    In short (if you dont want to click the links)

    1) PWEs founder wants to buy majority or (oustanding) shares to take PWE private.
    2) PWE saw a drop in Q3 performance they attributed to its US operations.

    Specifically "During the last financial quarter, which ended in September last year, Perfect World saw slight revenue gains offset by a 50 per cent drop in net profits, which it attributed to the performance of its US operations."


    So CLEARLY Cryptic is having profitability issues. You dont need to even be on the inside to know this, its evident in the population. Its also not rocket science on WHY either.

    When Cryptic and PWE value an orange artifact item at $600 US. This puts a BIS character in the $3,000+ range. Which would not be absurd IF the items didnt become obsolete every 2-4 months.

    Sprials, since you do seem to care about this game. I will post here an offer I sent to Crush and never heard back from. I will write out a full fledged research paper at no cost and email/mail it over to you analyzing all the good and bad with Neverwinter.

    All from leveling/PVE/dungeons.campaigns/PVP/real money transactions etc.

    Because its too much to post in any thread. My only ask is this finds its way into the hands of someone who can make a difference. I can tell you exactly WHY sales are down, I can tell you whats not working what is working etc.

    Why am I offering this? because I have invested too much emotionally/time/financially into my characters and account to continue to sit by watching this game commit suicide.

    I care about neverwinter and its success and eventhough I have tried multiple times to quit and play other games, I want to come back to Neverwinter - as I also KNOW others WANT to come back, but there is WAY to much flawed with the game and its business model.

    So if what you say is true, you "need to show your bosses that Neverwinter is successful so that you can continue being employed. " PM me here, I will give you my cell number, lets chat and I will get to work on my research paper if thats needed.

    Im NOT talking about "class balance" thats its own beast. I am talking about the fundamental backbone of the game and how it can EASILY be improved.

    PM me and ill give you my cell number or just PM me saying you WILL read what I spend tens of hours writing and WILL pass it along.

    I know EXACTLY how to make this game immensely profitable. You guys are sitting on a GOLD MINE and dont even know it!
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Specific to the Foundry, it seems like you have a "Chicken or the Egg" problem.

    You can't invest in the Foundry, because it's not really being used by the players. But the players aren't motivated to use the Foundry, because of the lack of investment.

    So I think the first, and lowest hanging fruit that you need to grab at is motivating people to play Foundry missions.

    To parallel something else you guys did, might I suggest a Foundry campaign similar to the PvP campaign. We know participation is also low in PvP, but the campaign and rewards did seem to motivate a lot of people to engage in it at some level. I know myself, who isn't big on the PvP in Neverwinter, played a lot of GG, IWD and some Domination maps to chase those achievements.

    Why not do the same for the Foundry? I know at the end of the day, some players are going to find the quickest and most exploitative way to get them, but so what. It might actually motivate people (if the achievements are chosen correctly) to get in and become more active playing in the Foundry (not authoring) and perhaps help improve those metrics your leads are looking at. Tack on some nice (but not game-breaking) rewards for spending time working on the Foundry campaign, and there you go. I have to imagine working on a campaign tree isn't too man-power intensive, and the work required might be justified given the potential for some return.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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  • ortzhyortzhy Member Posts: 1,103 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    spirals999 wrote: »
    Our fault was that we didn't keep iterating on The Foundry. The reason, as you have heard before was that the leads weren't seeing the numbers they wanted to in the metrics.

    You like being employed. You need to show your bosses that Neverwinter is successful so that you can continue being employed. Do you put your limited resources into something you know will bring in a return? Or do you possibly put your livelihood on the line and take a risk to improve The Foundry which historically has performed poorly and may or may not respond well to your changes?

    Ultimately however, we answer to you, our customers. That's what we need to work together to show Neverwinter. That if we answer to The Foundry community first, we can find creative solutions that make everybody happy.

    Numbers can be misleading, foundry is a good thing it only needs some solutions regarding the potential exploits and i also think that you guys have already developed all the tools to solve that (looking at BI system/ Dragon Hoard reclamation), they only need to be added to the foundry. After the exploit/reward part is solved i strongly believe that numbers will show something else. So gather around and start discussing what can you guys use that is already made and improve the Foundry without spending extra money or how can you make new tools that will benefit both future mods and foundry.

    Other games did make a profit from ugc, i see no reason why it cant happen here as well and i am a strong believer that foundry is the gem of this game, I am one of many that came here for the Foundry, i;ve seen what ugc can do in nwn 1 and warcraft 3.

    Another big problem of NWO is the list of bugs/updates that cant seem to find resources, this game does need more cleaning than what it currently receiving.
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,318 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I'm a little curious as to the process that Cryptic uses for making Foundry missions featured: is it something done on the side, do certain people have occasional "Foundry duty", or is there some other method? I'm asking not so much out of the featuring itself, but I'm wondering if an expanded version of the process could accomplish some amazing things.

    Let's say you have a large (deep, wide) Foundry campaign tree that can lead to a lot of things unique to the Foundry:

    - companions
    - mounts
    - skins for existing companions and mounts
    - fashion items
    - transmutes
    - components and/or progress in player housing

    A small team of people dedicated to the Foundry could, gradually and over time, select and vet foundry Missions and add tokens that lead to things like these. It would be similar to featuring a foundry where a safe copy is made to prevent exploits. It should take a lot of tokens, with some tokens perhaps available in the Zen store to speed things up (remember, it has to earn revenue, and while we all hate grinding, the business model pretty much demands it).

    An alternate version could be using new professions to effect some of the things above, with the Zen store not providing tokens but profession packs with green/blue/purple assets:

    - Player housing: stonemason, carpenter, glassmaker, cooper, excavator, miner, etc. (tons of possibilities here depending on what the player wants to build)

    - Mount skins: animal husbander/trainer

    - etc.

    You could probably come up with a large set of profession skills and/or assets just from looking at the AD&D nonweapon proficiencies list (and even more from looking at TSR books like The Castle Guide). The Zen store could function much the same as it already does: either in better profession assets to save time, special "mount fashion", "house fashion", "companion fashion" items, and so on.
    Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X
    Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
    Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
    Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
    The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
  • imaginaerum1imaginaerum1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 378 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    spirals999 wrote: »
    ...
    Our fault was that we didn't keep iterating on The Foundry. The reason, as you have heard before was that the leads weren't seeing the numbers they wanted to in the metrics.
    ...
    Ultimately however, we answer to you, our customers. That's what we need to work together to show Neverwinter. That if we answer to The Foundry community first, we can find creative solutions that make everybody happy.

    It goes further than that. Not only did you not keep iterating on the Foundry, you took out pretty much every reason that was in the game at launch that most people had to play the quests. This was done in the name of fighting abuse/exploits, while rampant abuse/exploits of the non-UGC stuff was doing far more damage than anything from Foundry ever could.
    Since then, there has been no effort at all to create a Foundry-specific reward system that would bring people back, and encourage them to play Foundry quests, despite dozens of well-thought-out, relatively easy to implement solutions proposed on this forum.

    If Foundry is the shining star of the game that the initial advertising said it was going to be, it will draw players to the game. Those players have just as much chance as anyone else to spend money on zen. If they go on to become Foundry authors, they are also likely to stay active longer than the average player, because they are invested in the game through their creations, given them even more opportunities to buy zen. So, while Foundry itself doesn't have a click-foundry-to-buy-zen monetization, a well-supported Foundry will result in additional income. You just will be very unlikely to be able to directly point to Foundry and say that it brought in X amount of revenue.

    So, do I expect someone to put their job on the line to support Foundry? No, I don't expect anything. In fact, I've learned to expect pretty much nothing at this point (really, how hard is it to add a Sit animation to Foundry, or a wooden floor?). But if you want this game to have longevity, you need to find something to revitalize it, or it's going to become a shell of its former self, filled with nothing but pvp'ers who will move on when the next big pvp game hits, and those few of us who refuse to abandon the sinking ship.

    Bring more people to Neverwinter, and income will increase. A vital, well-supported Foundry will bring more people. That's the bottom line.
  • kolatmasterkolatmaster Member Posts: 3,103 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Good sir spirals999, I tip my hat to you! :cool:

    *slow clap*
    spirals999 wrote: »
    Ultimately however, we answer to you, our customers. That's what we need to work together to show Neverwinter. That if we answer to The Foundry community first, we can find creative solutions that make everybody happy.
    Superb response, and assessment.

    Hopefully all this leads to direct improvements on The Foundry so that players similar to me can experience the wonders that this feature adds to the game! :)
    va8Ru.gif
  • eldartheldarth Member Posts: 4,494 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    eldarth wrote: »
    My top two:
    1. Complete exploit prevention (thread explains EASY implementation)
    2. Zen temporary use and coupons droppable or placeable in foundries. Instant ROI and visible foundry profitability metrics.

    These two would unlock everything else.

    Actually, one more involving extreeeeemely little development would improve foundry players experience immensely:
    Replace player selected tags with author provided tags AND add a "farming" tag. Done, farmers can farm (until exploit solution implemented) and RP and story/lore players can FIND reasons to play.
  • iandarkswordiandarksword Member Posts: 976 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    spirals999 wrote: »
    Consider this:
    Say you're a lead on Neverwinter. The data shows that putting time and resources into new content, new adventure zones, races, classes, companions, systems, crafting etc. brings in a return on that investment, while putting time and resources into The Foundry does not. Data shows that you have to put out new content every 2 to 4 months in order to maintain retention. Not only do you have to put out new content but you have to fix existing bugs, battle exploits, and implement new development tools and systems in order to support those new systems, classes, boss fights, localization, console support, and events.

    When I worked retail in a garden shop, we would sell certain products, like mulch, slightly below cost. These would be some staple items, people would need these. Hence, these would draw people to the store, and bring them back because the item was cheaper than anywhere else. There were mark-ups on other items (shovels, hoses, insecticide, etc.) that would bring profits, because, potentially people don't just buy mulch at a garden shop. Many players were drawn to Neverwinter because of the the Foundry. They stay with the game because of the combat system, the Forgotten Realms setting, guild participation, PVP, etc. From the looks of past forum posts there was great interest in the editor, then when it was put on the back burner in favor of metrics/new content/bug fixes people were intensely disappointed, looked for more to keep their attention and couldn't find enough to keep them happy.
    Data shows that you have to put out new content every 2 to 4 months in order to maintain retention.

    As far as "new" content, you've got Foundry authors working for free. F-R-E-E. True, the quality of content created by some authors is suspect, but some of the content is pure genius given the current state of the editor. I'll sacrifice myself as an example, even with just one Foundry quest under my belt, I tried to figure out how to create an Ogre Mage and Hobgoblin creature costume, because they weren't present in the current material. I drew inspiration for both costumes from the 3.5 Monster Manual, and as of Saturday, the 5th Edition Monster Manual. I'm not sure what your Art Department people are paid, they are talented, I'm sure they have credentials and schooling, but I designed those creatures as accurately as possible with the current system, for free. They aren't perfect, I'd like to give the Hobgoblins some different teeth, facial hair, and the Ogre Mage shorter horns, but with the current system I can't. If there was more variety in the available assets, there could potentially be some awesome creations made entirely for free by the players themselves any and every day of the week.
    spirals999 wrote: »
    You like being employed. You need to show your bosses that Neverwinter is successful so that you can continue being employed. Do you put your limited resources into something you know will bring in a return? Or do you possibly put your livelihood on the line and take a risk to improve The Foundry which historically has performed poorly and may or may not respond well to your changes?

    Sometimes taking a risk brings greater reward than "playing it safe." There is always the chance of failure. Look up the history of Edison, Ford, the Wright brothers, all of these people dealt with failure. Was there absolute certainty that this game would be successful at launch? If you (or we) can find a way to make the Foundry what draws players into this game, then the decision makers could potentially be looking at near infinite longevity, and almost certain returns. There are always new ideas from different individuals, and hence new content to retain players.
    spirals999 wrote: »
    Developers never set out to intentionally frustrate their players. We want to make you happy but we have limited resources and we like to keep our coworkers employed and making games. We also answer to our publishers, who answer to a board of directors. We also answer to Wizards of the Coast and CBS (STO).

    Wizards (Hasbro) should welcome the idea of improving the Foundry. Their entire Dungeons & Dragons product line IS essentially the pen and paper version of the Foundry. Wizards should be finding ways to incorporate their products with YOUR Foundry system to create online DM sessions. I'm sure there are many DM's who'd love to spend some spare time each week designing content for their PnP players to delve using Wizard's print materials. There is a niche to fill with the Foundry, it requires "thinking out of the box" of metrics, so to speak.
    spirals999 wrote: »
    Ultimately however, we answer to you, our customers. That's what we need to work together to show Neverwinter. That if we answer to The Foundry community first, we can find creative solutions that make everybody happy.

    It's good that you're making an effort. There are plenty of talented authors and a plethora of useful ideas from said authors. I come from the line of thinking that if people collectively work on real solutions instead of bickering about the shortfalls and differences of opinion, that some greater good can be achieved. In closing, my real world job entails dealing with management and their "data". This "data" is not entirely accurate as it doesn't figure in weather, animal interaction, customer interaction, etc. I focus on giving the people (outside of management) I deal with, the most honest effort that I can that day. While my "data" doesn't reflect the same result as management's "data", I can say that my customers appreciate what I do for them each and every day, with confidence. They come back because of what they receive that can't be counted as "data" on any sheet of paper.
    "I don't know, I'm making it up as I go..."
    Featured Foundry Quest: Whispers of an Ancient Evil [v3] - NW-DQ4WKW6ZG
    Foundry Quest: Harper Chronicles: Blacklake - NW-DCPA4W2Q5
  • zbkoldezbkolde Member Posts: 689 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    spirals999 wrote: »
    Data shows that you have to put out new content every 2 to 4 months in order to maintain retention.

    This is how you retain locusts.

    I very happily paid a subscription for 10 years on two games before playing Neverwinter. I never cared about new content, I just loved the games. Both games sold out to money-hungry companies that wrecked them. I would still be playing one of those games had it not decided to feed locusts with a free-to-play model that killed the game. You can retain long-time -- I am talking DECADES worth of loyalty -- customers by maintaining a solid, quality, enjoyable game for grown-ups who will stay, instead of destroying yourselves trying to feed the little baby locusts.
  • bernatkbernatk Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 115 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    spirals999 wrote: »
    Our fault was that we didn't keep iterating on The Foundry. The reason, as you have heard before was that the leads weren't seeing the numbers they wanted to in the metrics.

    Please allow us to take a full party of companions to Foundry (like in STO with 4 BOFFs). I love my companions as much as I love my BOFFs. And I promise to play at least 1 new foundry every day. Ty.
    JMYwySk.jpg
  • bioshrikebioshrike Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,729 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    spirals999 wrote: »
    Hello foundry community!

    I am Spirals. I'm a sound designer for Cryptic studios. I am trying to do some research on The Foundry and gather data concerning the player community's thoughts on the design and implementation of The Foundry as a medium for user generated content (UGC). We are asking for your help in considering how we might improve UGC now and in future Cryptic projects.

    Please take a few minutes to answer the following questions:

    What do you feel The Foundry does right? What feels good to you and what do you have fun doing? Why are you glad The Foundry was implemented in Neverwinter?

    The best thing the Foundry has going for it is its ability to let players see their creations come to life - be it through a story or just through map design. Being able to see the creativity of fellow players is wonderful.

    How do you feel The Foundry fell short? What do you absolutely hate doing in The Foundry? What are elements of The Foundry that make you wish it was never implemented in Neverwinter?

    The fact that farm-quests have become a big portion of what the foundry is used for, saddens me. The way people vote up to down quests because they aren't good for farming, (or as quick runs for the dailies), is also disheartening.

    What would you add to The Foundry to attract more authors and incentivize content creation? How would you like to see The Foundry implemented?

    There are 2 major things I would add to the Foundry; First, I would add a system to review how long, detailed, and in-depth they are. Second, I would add unique and interesting rewards for taking part in Foundry quests - I'm not just talking about daily quests for ADs, either. Add unique fashion and transmutes, but maybe also refining items and/or a selection of epic items as well.

    What are some other games you feel got UGC implementation right? What can Cryptic Studios learn from the UGC tools of these other games?

    I can't really speak for other MMOs with user-generated content, but if you look at one of Cryptics previous MMOs, 'City of Villains', they had some good tools for controlling pet behavior there - I'd love to see that brought over to Neverwinter.

    Thank you so much for your time.

    - Spirals


    My thoughts are above, in red.
    <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::>
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  • lupusjlupusj Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    spirals999 wrote: »
    Consider this:
    Say you're a lead on Neverwinter. The data shows that putting time and resources into new content, new adventure zones, races, classes, companions, systems, crafting etc. brings in a return on that investment, while putting time and resources into The Foundry does not. Data shows that you have to put out new content every 2 to 4 months in order to maintain retention. Not only do you have to put out new content but you have to fix existing bugs, battle exploits, and implement new development tools and systems in order to support those new systems, classes, boss fights, localization, console support, and events.

    You like being employed. You need to show your bosses that Neverwinter is successful so that you can continue being employed. Do you put your limited resources into something you know will bring in a return? Or do you possibly put your livelihood on the line and take a risk to improve The Foundry which historically has performed poorly and may or may not respond well to your changes?

    Spirals999 - like many others, I appreciate your honesty. I do believe that many of us get where you are coming from (as an individual and as an employee of Cryptic).

    One of my real world job aspects is in sorting out metrics and data for parts of my organisation that are not performing well, and I have a passion for the discussion of metrics in management decisions because I usually find them unhelpful without understanding their underlying assumptions. Consequently, the areas of your post that make me curious about how the process is working (and I don't expect an answer on the inner working of Cryptic or business information - or even a response, but I think the questions may be worth asking yourself if you haven't already done so).

    1. When were the metrics last gathered/assessed against the Foundry? It reads like it was a historical decision, and with previous frustrations with the Foundry system then perhaps the metrics are dated when considered against the current condition.

    2. Can you test the interest level? I'm thinking something like the 2X weekend/events that you have had recently, but focused on the Foundry. Place a minimal investment (I'm assuming these sorts of rewards aren't massively complicated to implement in your product) to change the reward system for the Foundry for a short period of time, or modify the reward for the Daily Foundry to make it easier to achieve the same results (i.e. 4, 000 AD for a single Daily Foundry qualifying quest). Advertise this event like all of the other special events that make up the game so that EVERYONE knows that the Foundry is worth more rewards during this time. Measure before, during and after the event. Decide then if there is interest in the Foundry system from the audience to form the basis of your business case for development, or if it will always remain an unprofitable venture.

    It still seems a bit odd to me that logging on to Swordcoast Adventures daily provides me with a better reward than working my way through a Foundry Quest.
  • eldartheldarth Member Posts: 4,494 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    You simply add one-week zen item "trial" drops to end-chest, allow people to "test drive" zen items, turn it into a 5% discount coupon at expiration, and they will see the true power of a fully powered Death Star, er, Foundry. I would wager real cash that it would increase Zen sales by (at least) 25%.
  • friendme32friendme32 Member Posts: 41
    edited January 2015
    spirals999 wrote: »
    Sure Guitarzan698. No problem. However first I'd like to say this:

    You're frustrated. Angry. That much comes across in your email. I get it. Since launch the community has been shedding light on bugs in The Foundry with very little feedback or action on the devs part. And here I come, a sound designer with Cryptic who is asking questions about things that have been discussed at length already. You probably see this as a pointless thread that will probably get as much traction as previous threads in actually getting anything done.

    I was and am an avid gamer. I've felt the same frustrations. I know it feels like you're screaming into a black hole. It doesn't help that there is a curtain that separates what you see as a player and fan from what I see as a player turned developer. This is an impressive community and you understand a lot of the reasons why we can't do certain things (monetization for example).

    It may feel sometimes like we are adversaries. We aren't. Nobody is out to victimize or anger or frustrate anyone else. I admit that we fall short in making you, the player, the fan, feel heard and listened to. We fall short in making you and some of the features of our games feel cared about. This is something we need to improve on.

    Okay I'll answer some of your questions now.



    No. You aren't expected to believe anything. But I will say this:

    PWE is the funding. As long as we are doing well PWE is fairly hands off in how Cryptic handles Neverwinter.

    So now that PWE is out of the way let's look at Cryptic. Cryptic is a company of 150 to 200 people. These numbers are divided into different teams working on each product plus core teams that work on all of the products (Audio is a core team for example). Let's now do a thought experiment and say that the entire Neverwinter team is comprised of 30 to 50 people. I've been working here for 6 years. We are living breathing human beings who see each other and talk to each other every day. We respect and listen to eachother's input and opinions.

    Given the open door environment we foster here in the studio and the relationships we foster as we work together it is possible for ANY Cryptic employee to gain the ear of the leads working on Neverwinter or any other project.



    No. My intention was never to imply that Cryptic was asking because we didn't know about the problems. My intentions were:

    #1) Try to collect the data into one place that is up to date and easily accessible

    #2) Introduce myself to the community and communicate the idea that someone is at least listening.



    As I stated earlier PWE doesn't handle The Foundry. Cryptic does. The Neverwinter team does.

    Are your answers going to make a difference? I don't know. That's an impossible question to answer.

    I can't comment on whether or not they will make a difference but I can at least say that they will be heard by team members here who can make a difference.



    You're welcome.

    In conclusion I'd like to maybe offer some perspective from a developer's side:

    Adding UGC as Robust as The Foundry to an MMO was a fairly unexplored landscape in the world of game development. We weren't going to get it right straight out the gate. We've all been playing MMOs for a long time and we know its very rare for a developer to get everything right from the get-go.

    Our fault was that we didn't keep iterating on The Foundry. The reason, as you have heard before was that the leads weren't seeing the numbers they wanted to in the metrics.

    Consider this:
    Say you're a lead on Neverwinter. The data shows that putting time and resources into new content, new adventure zones, races, classes, companions, systems, crafting etc. brings in a return on that investment, while putting time and resources into The Foundry does not. Data shows that you have to put out new content every 2 to 4 months in order to maintain retention. Not only do you have to put out new content but you have to fix existing bugs, battle exploits, and implement new development tools and systems in order to support those new systems, classes, boss fights, localization, console support, and events.

    You like being employed. You need to show your bosses that Neverwinter is successful so that you can continue being employed. Do you put your limited resources into something you know will bring in a return? Or do you possibly put your livelihood on the line and take a risk to improve The Foundry which historically has performed poorly and may or may not respond well to your changes?

    Developers never set out to intentionally frustrate their players. We want to make you happy but we have limited resources and we like to keep our coworkers employed and making games. We also answer to our publishers, who answer to a board of directors. We also answer to Wizards of the Coast and CBS (STO).

    Ultimately however, we answer to you, our customers. That's what we need to work together to show Neverwinter. That if we answer to The Foundry community first, we can find creative solutions that make everybody happy.
    Could you help clear up some information about Foundries to players so we are more comfortable participating in them?
    I asked a simple question of "how to delete foundries" here http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?821001-Deleting-Foundry-files
    and no one even knows how...
    now I'm starting to concern are these contents always safe since we cant even delete them once downloaded?
  • imaginaerum1imaginaerum1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 378 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    ...
    cause we community weren't demanding things like:
    give me red shoes after 2-3 days, i got sick of red shoes, now i want blue shoes, gimme blue shoes etc.
    we only wanted balance not only in PVP, but in PVE aswell
    ...

    Actually, that's pretty much exactly what the "community" was demanding.
    Every time they make a change, the minmaxers figure out the best way to abuse it. Suddenly, a bunch of people are using the red shoes to win, and everyone without the red shoes complains. Too powerful, too unbalanced, nerf nerf nerf! So they do, and after the changes the blue shoes are more powerful, and the cycle continues. It's what they focus on, what they do, over and over, because their "moneymakers", the pvp crowd, keep screaming for it.

    So yeah, I'm a bit touchy when someone says that Cryptic isn't doing anything for pvp, when I've been watching them do thing after thing for pvp, while Foundry, the part of the game that I care about, that I'm passionate about, is left to rot.
  • imaginaerum1imaginaerum1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 378 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    friendme32 wrote: »
    I asked a simple question of "how to delete foundries" here http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?821001-Deleting-Foundry-files
    and no one even knows how...

    Seriously?
    That question was answered by Eldarth. The maps are not actually stored on your computer.

    Now, if you're talking about a quest you made, and you don't want anyone playing it, you can withdraw it, and it unpublishes.
    If you really want to delete it, you can do that too. On the menu of your quests in the Foundry, there's a button called "Delete". Use it. That will delete the quest from the Cryptic database.

    But like Eldarth said, it's not local storage for Foundries. The game only temporarily downloads what it needs, just like with the rest of the game world. Foundries are not consuming your hard drive.
  • eldartheldarth Member Posts: 4,494 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    But like Eldarth said, it's not local storage for Foundries. The game only temporarily downloads what it needs, just like with the rest of the game world. Foundries are not consuming your hard drive.

    Actually, someone did find "UGC" related files in a neverwinter data directory.

    So, go ahead -- feel free to delete all those files.
    You might break your game - either any existing foundry quests you have or had played, or maybe even the game itself if it can't find files it expected to be there. Worst case - you need to re-install Neverwinter. Go for it.

    Also, as mentioned there are far, far better ways to cleanup your Windows drives and many other things that can be deleted. Start with Drive Cleanup, and go into Control Panel and uninstall any programs you don't want or no longer use.

    Or, mow a lawn or something and perhaps just spend $50 for an external 500GB drive.
This discussion has been closed.