Trapper is very good now, I just hope it wont become OP, and they dont nerf it
I can't see how they could argue it as OP. Compare to CW a little more AOE DPS a little less single target a little more durability a little less control. OK TR more AOE much less single-target more control same durability. DC much less durability more DPS and control. GWF more control and DPS less durability (GWF might need a little work at this point). I mean the only way they could declare it OP is that CW is no longer the undisputed god of PVE and the devs don't have that bias at all do they..... Ok, enjoy it while it lasts folks. We're gonna get nerfed again.....
Ching Ching Kaboom is indeed Ice Knife, the daily power.
Ice Knife is one of the easiest attacks to dodge in this game, you see it coming from galaxies away.
as I said, I often see the dodge, but still get proned, even though I don't take the damage, the CC duration and then getting chain ccd is usually the death of me. WTB ITC on all classes or CC immunity based on tenacity levels so that we can avoid being chain CCd to death. :P (I tested greater elven battle armor enchant, didn't seem to help)
HR is op atm, you can't really argue otherwise, it's much more balanced than mod 3/4 though, but roots ARE broken and you can't argue otherwise. If the undodgeable/timing sync issues were fixed and some other bugfixes were made, it may be balanced, but the root ticks are still seriously OP and the fact you can't get rid of them once they're applied makes it difficult for some classes. You can get something like 14k root ticks in pvp, and i've actually had a 13k non-crit root tick before.
HR is op atm, you can't really argue otherwise, it's much more balanced than mod 3/4 though, but roots ARE broken and you can't argue otherwise. If the undodgeable/timing sync issues were fixed and some other bugfixes were made, it may be balanced, but the root ticks are still seriously OP and the fact you can't get rid of them once they're applied makes it difficult for some classes. You can get something like 14k root ticks in pvp, and i've actually had a 13k non-crit root tick before.
Yeah, roots are OP, especially because Trapper HRs have all those burst attacks that they already use to kill you such as Hawk shot or Rain of arrows and the highest survability in the game...
Yeah, roots are OP, especially because Trapper HRs have all those burst attacks that they already use to kill you such as Hawk shot or Rain of arrows and the highest survability in the game...
... not.
What are you saying? Your sarcasm isn't really helping because you're not making any sense. However, I must admit that someone using Rain of Arrows and Hawk Shot would just be a free kill for me. In fact I wouldn't even bother paying attention to them even in 1vmore because they're not worth anything and are hardly a threat.
You lose survivability but you have over-the-top DPS. If you get first hit in on any class that doesn't have a CC break (except DC), then they're dead and have 0 chance of counter-play. On top of that, that damage also translates into AoEs that you can use in mid fights (or 2v2/3v3 at end nodes), that can literally wipe classes that have no cc break or AS. If you don't know how to play, then don't try and tell me that HR isn't OP. Also yes, there are other classes that are more OP but it doesn't mean HR isn't OP.
Yeah, roots are OP, especially because Trapper HRs have all those burst attacks that they already use to kill you such as Hawk shot or Rain of arrows and the highest survability in the game...
... not.
uw0tm8 ?!?!?!?
Who the **** uses these pieces of sh*t in PVP?
Beta player
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
HR is op atm, you can't really argue otherwise, it's much more balanced than mod 3/4 though, but roots ARE broken and you can't argue otherwise. If the undodgeable/timing sync issues were fixed and some other bugfixes were made, it may be balanced, but the root ticks are still seriously OP and the fact you can't get rid of them once they're applied makes it difficult for some classes. You can get something like 14k root ticks in pvp, and i've actually had a 13k non-crit root tick before.
same thing with DC's and SW's and the super OP TR dots , PVP is a big mess now .
What are you saying? Your sarcasm isn't really helping because you're not making any sense. However, I must admit that someone using Rain of Arrows and Hawk Shot would just be a free kill for me. In fact I wouldn't even bother paying attention to them even in 1vmore because they're not worth anything and are hardly a threat.
You lose survivability but you have over-the-top DPS. If you get first hit in on any class that doesn't have a CC break (except DC), then they're dead and have 0 chance of counter-play. On top of that, that damage also translates into AoEs that you can use in mid fights (or 2v2/3v3 at end nodes), that can literally wipe classes that have no cc break or AS. If you don't know how to play, then don't try and tell me that HR isn't OP. Also yes, there are other classes that are more OP but it doesn't mean HR isn't OP.
Additionally - HR is my main.
I was just trying to make emphasis (not in a great way I admit) in our lack of damage besides roots. Archery receives about 60% bonus to ranged attacks + crit and power buffs, and Combat has about 40% damage bonus with PB + Flurry. Root damage is needed since our encounters suck for dealing direct damage. I agree that roots can sometimes hit really hard if everything goes as planned, but in practice most of the times it's not like that.
TR: You can try to time your CC when they leave ITC but in the meantime they'll take your head off.
GWF: Unstoppable keeps making them hard to kill, but besides that they're not a big deal. Still, they have the ways to negate roots.
GF: It's usually hard to land roots on them because of shield and their CC/burst damage. The fight is mine if I find an opening and apply roots, but they can kill me as well.
CW: The thing about roots is that it's not a stun, wizards can still CC and kill me so whoever hits first wins.
DC: Can take a lot of damage, can kill fast if specced to do so. It's not an easy fight and I'm not complaining, but roots are not OP against them.
SW: They're dead, but they're also the weakest PvP class so the problem is more about them than us.
HR: Archery dies, Trapper goes for who kills faster and Combat is usually in a disadvantage.
Roots can tick for very high damage against undergeared players. Not as much as PvE (where I've seen ticks for 27k) but for 15k sometimes, but those numbers only come against people with low tenacity, defense and gear score overall. When fighting someone within my same gear bracket root damage isn't particularly high, I don't consider ticks for 5k-8k to be over the top especially now that we have very large HP pools and other players already dealing higher amounts of damage. In top of that, HRs overall lack from CC breaks and a reliable dodge. The only survability tools are provided by combat and gaps created by roots against certain classes. Yeah sure, you can create situations where damage will look insanely high but it's not always like that. There are broken things in the game that deserve far more attention than this (SE, dazes, DPS clerics, etc) and after they fix those, roots could take another look.
I was just trying to make emphasis (not in a great way I admit) in our lack of damage besides roots. Archery receives about 60% bonus to ranged attacks + crit and power buffs, and Combat has about 40% damage bonus with PB + Flurry. Root damage is needed since our encounters suck for dealing direct damage. I agree that roots can sometimes hit really hard if everything goes as planned, but in practice most of the times it's not like that.
TR: You can try to time your CC when they leave ITC but in the meantime they'll take your head off.
GWF: Unstoppable keeps making them hard to kill, but besides that they're not a big deal. Still, they have the ways to negate roots.
GF: It's usually hard to land roots on them because of shield and their CC/burst damage. The fight is mine if I find an opening and apply roots, but they can kill me as well.
CW: The thing about roots is that it's not a stun, wizards can still CC and kill me so whoever hits first wins.
DC: Can take a lot of damage, can kill fast if specced to do so. It's not an easy fight and I'm not complaining, but roots are not OP against them.
SW: They're dead, but they're also the weakest PvP class so the problem is more about them than us.
HR: Archery dies, Trapper goes for who kills faster and Combat is usually in a disadvantage.
Roots can tick for very high damage against undergeared players. Not as much as PvE (where I've seen ticks for 27k) but for 15k sometimes, but those numbers only come against people with low tenacity, defense and gear score overall. When fighting someone within my same gear bracket root damage isn't particularly high, I don't consider ticks for 5k-8k to be over the top especially now that we have very large HP pools and other players already dealing higher amounts of damage. In top of that, HRs overall lack from CC breaks and a reliable dodge. The only survability tools are provided by combat and gaps created by roots against certain classes. Yeah sure, you can create situations where damage will look insanely high but it's not always like that. There are broken things in the game that deserve far more attention than this (SE, dazes, DPS clerics, etc) and after they fix those, roots could take another look.
You're wrong on several accounts here. Let me put it this way:
TR: you lose because of SE, BB and CoS + Shadowy Opportunity. If dailies were toned down in terms of how much you can use them, and SO was changed to do less damage/damage proportionate to the original damage, then HR vs TR would be more skill based.
GWF: yes, here you are correct, GWFs are one of the hardest classes to handle 1v1, and you will need Thorn Ward against non-******ed GWFs, but you still shouldn't lose 1v1s if you're a Pathfinder Trapper. Stormwarden can lose.
GF: no, you will always win against Conqueror GF if you slot Thorn Ward. Without TW you should still win most of the time, and you should pretty much never lose if you're a Pathfinder Trapper. Against a Protector GF, you probably will lose if they have DC artifact + daily already up, because you can't outdps their Tenebrous enchants + they will be doing more damage from reflects to you than you are doing to them. Otherwise, you can generally kill them pretty fast.
CW: you should usually be winning against a CW unless you don't have hindering shot charges or you don't crit and they one rotation you.
DC: you generally will takes ages to kill a BiS Faithful DC, whereas a DPS DC will just kill you while taking 0 damage the whole time.
SW: a good SW can kill an average trapper, but then again, this goes the same for most things.
HR: archery is a useless spec anyway. Combat will always win against Trapper except in specific circumstances, or if the skill/gear difference is great enough.
5-8k roots ticks is actually a lot. If you hit for a 7k root tick, they're dazed for 1-2 seconds, and you're foxing them for the next second - that's 20k damage from roots, 5k from disruptive and another 10k or so from fox. On the next 1-2 ticks they're dead.
Also you're wrong on the damage buffs. Trapper has a 58% damage boost, Combat has 40% from PB + Flurry + 5% from Scything Blades, Archery has 40% in PvP. Even without roots Trapper has good damage, but you do need the root damage atm to compete with the damage of other classes. I don't think the damage of roots needs to be nerfed, it just needs to be dodgeable, and a possible duration decrease (so less ticks, meaning you need to reapply more), could be in order, but I'd rather just see the roots be dodgeable first. In fact, we could do with Thorned/Ancient Roots giving strong roots a 1 second daze when applied, with a 10 second cooldown. Something like that would help survivability by a lot, but in that sense you'd probably need to nerf the duration of the roots, or the damage.
And yes there are more pressing issues atm, but that's not saying that HR isn't broken or OP.
Uhh looking at your description:
TR: lose
GWF depends on buid
GF: depends on build
CW: win
SW: depends on skill
HR: depends on build
That actually looks pretty ballanced........
TR: lose
GWF: win
GF: win
CW: win if you get first hit
SW: win
HR: if you have 2 HRs on a node you're doing it wrong anyway
When I say "a good SW can kill an average trapper", I mean, a good SW can kill someone who sucks at the game. Which applies for everything. And no one runs Stormwarden in pvp anyway.
First off, hi, I've been a lurker on these forums for about a month (I started playing in late November and doing pvp after mod 5 was launched) but only decided today to actually participate here because I have some questions regarding HR paragons as well as some concerns regarding balance. Starting a new thread seemed to be unnecessary, as there was already a good Trapper discussion going on.
Basically, my questions and concerns are these:
1) Stormwarden vs. Pathfinder: I went Stormwarden, but most people who do pvp seem to prefer Pathfinder. I haven't had much success in finding data about Pathfinder abilities, which is important to have because I plan on using a respec token to go down that path fairly soon and want to know what I'm getting into. The general consensus is that Pathfinder is better for pvp. Why? Is it survivability? Single-target vs. AoE? Better ability to team buff? I would also like to know if anybody has info on the duration of the Pathfinder Action buffs, damage+leap distance for Slasher's Mark (and what your offensive stats were when using this daily), and how Hunter's Teamwork/Careful Attack compare to the other available at-wills. Alternately, if you know of a source where I could find this info, I would greatly appreciate it (Nwcalc doesn't show most info, including damage, for abilities).
2) From my experience as a Stormwarden Trapper, I've only found one Stormwarden ability - the passive Stormstep Action - to be useful for pvp, because for as long as I don't mess up the rotation I can be nearly constantly using encounters and dailies, with the occasional rapid shot or aimed strike added in for good measure. For a Trapper, are there any other Stormwarden abilities that other players consider useful for pvp? The other passives seem far more beneficial for pve and a more combat-focused style. The at-will is good - for pve, while the encounter is garbage for all things and other people say that the daily is garbage also.
3) Ralexinor, what gear score bracket are you using for those encounter and daily numbers (if you don't mind my asking)? My numbers against dummies are much lower than yours (usually less than half), but my gs is only ~12.5k and not optimized for damage at all, plus I'm using T1 weapons (Thayan Zealot). And when you found your numbers, were they data you gathered against players with tenacity, dmg resist, etc, or were they against dummies? That is very important to know for balance purposes. The damage that you list (5-7k per tick from Roots, etc) is certainly high, but I suspect that is only the case for those HR's who have similarly high gear scores.
4) Balance: it seems like some people are upset about Thorned Roots damage, while others are upset about their duration, and others are upset about their ability to affect people when they shouldn't. Thorned Roots damage, in my opinion, IS high, but doesn't seem overpowered to me. If through a bug it ignores all resistance, that is one thing - and would need to be fixed. But it is one of the primary means of Trapper damage and if nerfed too much would greatly hinder their ability to not suck vs. some other classes, and so I think any action in that regard should be carefully discussed and considered beforehand. Thorned Roots duration is only meaningful because Ancient Roots extends it to 3.5 seconds against players, and that is probably affected by control resist and tenacity - so if you aren't using anything that increases control duration, it hardly seems unfair to me, compared to the abilities that some other classes get; and again, this is a distinct feature of the Trapper tree, so nerfing this would greatly hurt us as well as reduce the difference between this and other trees. With the matter of Roots grasping people who should be immune (dodge rolls, ITC, etc), that is certainly a bug and should fixed as well, but the priority for the developers should be on problems that are more common and considered worse by the game community. Specifically I am thinking of Daze going through CC and Shocking Execution ignoring tenacity.
Long post, hope it was readable. And thanks for all of the info you guys have already given me, it has been of great help in making this experience better.
Thorned Roots damage can be pretty insane with team debuffs and buffs; I've had numbers around 15k in PvP, and possibly getting towards 17-18k as well. Obviously that's on lesser geared toons, and affected by external damage multipliers, so that's a different story.
Overall Thorned Roots will hit between 6-10k on a BiS toon (between 5-7k, sometimes 8k on tankier classes such as GWF and GF). I've had 14k crits in PvP on BiS players, without any external debuffs or buffs.
And yes, 12.5k is a far cry off, my toon is 23-24k GS, and playing against similar GS (BiS players). With Elixirs (which unfortunately you sometimes have to use in premades because the other team uses them), and food buffs, you can hit an insane amount with roots.
Stormstep Action is really bad, you get enough cooldown reductions from Swiftness of the Fox. Pathfinder is better because of Slasher's Mark and Hunter's Teamwork/Careful Attack. Also giving up Aspect of the Serpent or Aspect of the Lone Wolf in PvP is a really bad decision, except in select cases, and Stormstep Action isn't good enough to replace either.
Also strong roots lasts 5-6 seconds in PvP (base 4.5 seconds, then affected by capstone and WIS. Tenacity and deflect can reduce it, though).
So overall your Roots deal approximately 12-20% of the target's hp, just triggered off of one encounter, are keeping them in place for 3 or 4 seconds, and you still have Fox+Disruptive+whatever else (marauder probably). Then, in maybe 6 or 8 seconds you can use the encounter again. That does seem like too much.
Do you think a damage reduction of 20% from Thorned Roots is good, or is that still too little? I would think that halving the damage is too much and don't want to get hit by a big nerf-bat, but the objective is to make pvp fair and towards that end anything goes.
Okay, so the only reason I am still in Stormwarden is actually a mistake. Good to know. You mention that there are specific cases where a HR would not want to go Serpent+Lone Wolf. What are those cases? Are the defensive benefits of using Pathfinder's Action + Slasher's Speed (which I was looking at doing) enough, or is the damage from Aspect of the Serpent+Serpent's Bite too important?
Each hit (crit assumed) deals 10-20% of your target's hp, and Thorned Roots ticks 6 times in pvp. You then get 7-8k damage from fox (assuming at least one crit or no deflects), and you can crit up to 10-15k with your root encounters themselves. The damage is pretty high.
Atm because of the burst meta it's not as bad as other things, but roots need to be dodgeable.
Okay so I am trying out my Archery HR in PVP. What encounters would you suggest to use? (And no I'm not going to switch to Trapper, I like Archery too much.)
Also, does Thorn Ward draw TRs out of Stealth? I would think so but I am not sure, sometimes I would place it on a node where I know a stealthed TR is hiding, but nothing seems to happen.
Archery? Depends on your build, if you can tank some damage, run Thorn Ward, Hindering Shot and Fox Shift/Marauders/Split the Sky, but you're going to suffer against other HRs and CWs.
Thorn Ward shows the position the TR is in when it ticks, but does not actually reveal them or hit them.
Archery? Depends on your build, if you can tank some damage, run Thorn Ward, Hindering Shot and Fox Shift/Marauders/Split the Sky, but you're going to suffer against other HRs and CWs.
Thorn Ward shows the position the TR is in when it ticks, but does not actually reveal them or hit them.
Hindering Shot? Why not Constricting Arrow? Not trying to argue, just asking why you chose that.
Hindering Shot? Why not Constricting Arrow? Not trying to argue, just asking why you chose that.
constricting arrow does nothing is you arent trapper, low damage and absolutely 0 CC.
hindering shot has 3 charges and can hit up to 10k if you are archery.
I don't believe so, I just switched to trapper yesterday and went up against a 24k gs trapper build hr and he was dodging. Was reviewing log lots zero damage when I was attacking...
PVP is more fun, more like how I used to play... Not sure how to play PVE yet...
So far I’m glad I switched, it took awhile to decide because I was worried about pve, but archer build needs some work. They are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in PvP and probably 3rd or 4th in pve dps.
constricting arrow does nothing is you arent trapper, low damage and absolutely 0 CC.
hindering shot has 3 charges and can hit up to 10k if you are archery.
No CC? But it has Strong Grasping Roots. Isn't that CC?
Comments
I might be confusing CW spells, I think I am thinking of Ice knife? big blue symbol and then ching ching kaboom.
I can't see how they could argue it as OP. Compare to CW a little more AOE DPS a little less single target a little more durability a little less control. OK TR more AOE much less single-target more control same durability. DC much less durability more DPS and control. GWF more control and DPS less durability (GWF might need a little work at this point). I mean the only way they could declare it OP is that CW is no longer the undisputed god of PVE and the devs don't have that bias at all do they..... Ok, enjoy it while it lasts folks. We're gonna get nerfed again.....
Ching Ching Kaboom is indeed Ice Knife, the daily power.
Ice Knife is one of the easiest attacks to dodge in this game, you see it coming from galaxies away.
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
But a good CW never ever land it without controlling you lol . it's 99% of the time on your head
Shhhhh let's try to give them hope :rolleyes:
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
as I said, I often see the dodge, but still get proned, even though I don't take the damage, the CC duration and then getting chain ccd is usually the death of me. WTB ITC on all classes or CC immunity based on tenacity levels so that we can avoid being chain CCd to death. :P (I tested greater elven battle armor enchant, didn't seem to help)
Yeah, roots are OP, especially because Trapper HRs have all those burst attacks that they already use to kill you such as Hawk shot or Rain of arrows and the highest survability in the game...
... not.
HR Stormwarden Trapper / Stormwarden Combat
GWF Swordmaster Destroyer
CW Master of Flame Thaumaturge / Spellstorm Oppressor
TR Master Infiltrator Executioner
SW Soulbinder Fury
What are you saying? Your sarcasm isn't really helping because you're not making any sense. However, I must admit that someone using Rain of Arrows and Hawk Shot would just be a free kill for me. In fact I wouldn't even bother paying attention to them even in 1vmore because they're not worth anything and are hardly a threat.
You lose survivability but you have over-the-top DPS. If you get first hit in on any class that doesn't have a CC break (except DC), then they're dead and have 0 chance of counter-play. On top of that, that damage also translates into AoEs that you can use in mid fights (or 2v2/3v3 at end nodes), that can literally wipe classes that have no cc break or AS. If you don't know how to play, then don't try and tell me that HR isn't OP. Also yes, there are other classes that are more OP but it doesn't mean HR isn't OP.
Additionally - HR is my main.
uw0tm8 ?!?!?!?
Who the **** uses these pieces of sh*t in PVP?
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
Hawk shot benefit the most for archery build only due to prey feat..for pvp, its good if u know how to use it
Edit : spelling
same thing with DC's and SW's and the super OP TR dots , PVP is a big mess now .
No one, because they're useless and provide no burst.
HR Stormwarden Trapper / Stormwarden Combat
GWF Swordmaster Destroyer
CW Master of Flame Thaumaturge / Spellstorm Oppressor
TR Master Infiltrator Executioner
SW Soulbinder Fury
I was just trying to make emphasis (not in a great way I admit) in our lack of damage besides roots. Archery receives about 60% bonus to ranged attacks + crit and power buffs, and Combat has about 40% damage bonus with PB + Flurry. Root damage is needed since our encounters suck for dealing direct damage. I agree that roots can sometimes hit really hard if everything goes as planned, but in practice most of the times it's not like that.
TR: You can try to time your CC when they leave ITC but in the meantime they'll take your head off.
GWF: Unstoppable keeps making them hard to kill, but besides that they're not a big deal. Still, they have the ways to negate roots.
GF: It's usually hard to land roots on them because of shield and their CC/burst damage. The fight is mine if I find an opening and apply roots, but they can kill me as well.
CW: The thing about roots is that it's not a stun, wizards can still CC and kill me so whoever hits first wins.
DC: Can take a lot of damage, can kill fast if specced to do so. It's not an easy fight and I'm not complaining, but roots are not OP against them.
SW: They're dead, but they're also the weakest PvP class so the problem is more about them than us.
HR: Archery dies, Trapper goes for who kills faster and Combat is usually in a disadvantage.
Roots can tick for very high damage against undergeared players. Not as much as PvE (where I've seen ticks for 27k) but for 15k sometimes, but those numbers only come against people with low tenacity, defense and gear score overall. When fighting someone within my same gear bracket root damage isn't particularly high, I don't consider ticks for 5k-8k to be over the top especially now that we have very large HP pools and other players already dealing higher amounts of damage. In top of that, HRs overall lack from CC breaks and a reliable dodge. The only survability tools are provided by combat and gaps created by roots against certain classes. Yeah sure, you can create situations where damage will look insanely high but it's not always like that. There are broken things in the game that deserve far more attention than this (SE, dazes, DPS clerics, etc) and after they fix those, roots could take another look.
HR Stormwarden Trapper / Stormwarden Combat
GWF Swordmaster Destroyer
CW Master of Flame Thaumaturge / Spellstorm Oppressor
TR Master Infiltrator Executioner
SW Soulbinder Fury
You're wrong on several accounts here. Let me put it this way:
TR: you lose because of SE, BB and CoS + Shadowy Opportunity. If dailies were toned down in terms of how much you can use them, and SO was changed to do less damage/damage proportionate to the original damage, then HR vs TR would be more skill based.
GWF: yes, here you are correct, GWFs are one of the hardest classes to handle 1v1, and you will need Thorn Ward against non-******ed GWFs, but you still shouldn't lose 1v1s if you're a Pathfinder Trapper. Stormwarden can lose.
GF: no, you will always win against Conqueror GF if you slot Thorn Ward. Without TW you should still win most of the time, and you should pretty much never lose if you're a Pathfinder Trapper. Against a Protector GF, you probably will lose if they have DC artifact + daily already up, because you can't outdps their Tenebrous enchants + they will be doing more damage from reflects to you than you are doing to them. Otherwise, you can generally kill them pretty fast.
CW: you should usually be winning against a CW unless you don't have hindering shot charges or you don't crit and they one rotation you.
DC: you generally will takes ages to kill a BiS Faithful DC, whereas a DPS DC will just kill you while taking 0 damage the whole time.
SW: a good SW can kill an average trapper, but then again, this goes the same for most things.
HR: archery is a useless spec anyway. Combat will always win against Trapper except in specific circumstances, or if the skill/gear difference is great enough.
5-8k roots ticks is actually a lot. If you hit for a 7k root tick, they're dazed for 1-2 seconds, and you're foxing them for the next second - that's 20k damage from roots, 5k from disruptive and another 10k or so from fox. On the next 1-2 ticks they're dead.
Also you're wrong on the damage buffs. Trapper has a 58% damage boost, Combat has 40% from PB + Flurry + 5% from Scything Blades, Archery has 40% in PvP. Even without roots Trapper has good damage, but you do need the root damage atm to compete with the damage of other classes. I don't think the damage of roots needs to be nerfed, it just needs to be dodgeable, and a possible duration decrease (so less ticks, meaning you need to reapply more), could be in order, but I'd rather just see the roots be dodgeable first. In fact, we could do with Thorned/Ancient Roots giving strong roots a 1 second daze when applied, with a 10 second cooldown. Something like that would help survivability by a lot, but in that sense you'd probably need to nerf the duration of the roots, or the damage.
And yes there are more pressing issues atm, but that's not saying that HR isn't broken or OP.
TR: lose
GWF depends on buid
GF: depends on build
CW: win
SW: depends on skill
HR: depends on build
That actually looks pretty ballanced........
TR: lose
GWF: win
GF: win
CW: win if you get first hit
SW: win
HR: if you have 2 HRs on a node you're doing it wrong anyway
When I say "a good SW can kill an average trapper", I mean, a good SW can kill someone who sucks at the game. Which applies for everything. And no one runs Stormwarden in pvp anyway.
Basically, my questions and concerns are these:
1) Stormwarden vs. Pathfinder: I went Stormwarden, but most people who do pvp seem to prefer Pathfinder. I haven't had much success in finding data about Pathfinder abilities, which is important to have because I plan on using a respec token to go down that path fairly soon and want to know what I'm getting into. The general consensus is that Pathfinder is better for pvp. Why? Is it survivability? Single-target vs. AoE? Better ability to team buff? I would also like to know if anybody has info on the duration of the Pathfinder Action buffs, damage+leap distance for Slasher's Mark (and what your offensive stats were when using this daily), and how Hunter's Teamwork/Careful Attack compare to the other available at-wills. Alternately, if you know of a source where I could find this info, I would greatly appreciate it (Nwcalc doesn't show most info, including damage, for abilities).
2) From my experience as a Stormwarden Trapper, I've only found one Stormwarden ability - the passive Stormstep Action - to be useful for pvp, because for as long as I don't mess up the rotation I can be nearly constantly using encounters and dailies, with the occasional rapid shot or aimed strike added in for good measure. For a Trapper, are there any other Stormwarden abilities that other players consider useful for pvp? The other passives seem far more beneficial for pve and a more combat-focused style. The at-will is good - for pve, while the encounter is garbage for all things and other people say that the daily is garbage also.
3) Ralexinor, what gear score bracket are you using for those encounter and daily numbers (if you don't mind my asking)? My numbers against dummies are much lower than yours (usually less than half), but my gs is only ~12.5k and not optimized for damage at all, plus I'm using T1 weapons (Thayan Zealot). And when you found your numbers, were they data you gathered against players with tenacity, dmg resist, etc, or were they against dummies? That is very important to know for balance purposes. The damage that you list (5-7k per tick from Roots, etc) is certainly high, but I suspect that is only the case for those HR's who have similarly high gear scores.
4) Balance: it seems like some people are upset about Thorned Roots damage, while others are upset about their duration, and others are upset about their ability to affect people when they shouldn't. Thorned Roots damage, in my opinion, IS high, but doesn't seem overpowered to me. If through a bug it ignores all resistance, that is one thing - and would need to be fixed. But it is one of the primary means of Trapper damage and if nerfed too much would greatly hinder their ability to not suck vs. some other classes, and so I think any action in that regard should be carefully discussed and considered beforehand. Thorned Roots duration is only meaningful because Ancient Roots extends it to 3.5 seconds against players, and that is probably affected by control resist and tenacity - so if you aren't using anything that increases control duration, it hardly seems unfair to me, compared to the abilities that some other classes get; and again, this is a distinct feature of the Trapper tree, so nerfing this would greatly hurt us as well as reduce the difference between this and other trees. With the matter of Roots grasping people who should be immune (dodge rolls, ITC, etc), that is certainly a bug and should fixed as well, but the priority for the developers should be on problems that are more common and considered worse by the game community. Specifically I am thinking of Daze going through CC and Shocking Execution ignoring tenacity.
Long post, hope it was readable. And thanks for all of the info you guys have already given me, it has been of great help in making this experience better.
Overall Thorned Roots will hit between 6-10k on a BiS toon (between 5-7k, sometimes 8k on tankier classes such as GWF and GF). I've had 14k crits in PvP on BiS players, without any external debuffs or buffs.
And yes, 12.5k is a far cry off, my toon is 23-24k GS, and playing against similar GS (BiS players). With Elixirs (which unfortunately you sometimes have to use in premades because the other team uses them), and food buffs, you can hit an insane amount with roots.
Stormstep Action is really bad, you get enough cooldown reductions from Swiftness of the Fox. Pathfinder is better because of Slasher's Mark and Hunter's Teamwork/Careful Attack. Also giving up Aspect of the Serpent or Aspect of the Lone Wolf in PvP is a really bad decision, except in select cases, and Stormstep Action isn't good enough to replace either.
Also strong roots lasts 5-6 seconds in PvP (base 4.5 seconds, then affected by capstone and WIS. Tenacity and deflect can reduce it, though).
So overall your Roots deal approximately 12-20% of the target's hp, just triggered off of one encounter, are keeping them in place for 3 or 4 seconds, and you still have Fox+Disruptive+whatever else (marauder probably). Then, in maybe 6 or 8 seconds you can use the encounter again. That does seem like too much.
Do you think a damage reduction of 20% from Thorned Roots is good, or is that still too little? I would think that halving the damage is too much and don't want to get hit by a big nerf-bat, but the objective is to make pvp fair and towards that end anything goes.
Okay, so the only reason I am still in Stormwarden is actually a mistake. Good to know. You mention that there are specific cases where a HR would not want to go Serpent+Lone Wolf. What are those cases? Are the defensive benefits of using Pathfinder's Action + Slasher's Speed (which I was looking at doing) enough, or is the damage from Aspect of the Serpent+Serpent's Bite too important?
Each hit (crit assumed) deals 10-20% of your target's hp, and Thorned Roots ticks 6 times in pvp. You then get 7-8k damage from fox (assuming at least one crit or no deflects), and you can crit up to 10-15k with your root encounters themselves. The damage is pretty high.
Atm because of the burst meta it's not as bad as other things, but roots need to be dodgeable.
Thorn Ward shows the position the TR is in when it ticks, but does not actually reveal them or hit them.
Hindering Shot? Why not Constricting Arrow? Not trying to argue, just asking why you chose that.
constricting arrow does nothing is you arent trapper, low damage and absolutely 0 CC.
hindering shot has 3 charges and can hit up to 10k if you are archery.
I don't believe so, I just switched to trapper yesterday and went up against a 24k gs trapper build hr and he was dodging. Was reviewing log lots zero damage when I was attacking...
PVP is more fun, more like how I used to play... Not sure how to play PVE yet...
So far I’m glad I switched, it took awhile to decide because I was worried about pve, but archer build needs some work. They are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in PvP and probably 3rd or 4th in pve dps.
No CC? But it has Strong Grasping Roots. Isn't that CC?
try it yourself, last less than 0.1 sec on players.