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how i think TRs should be...

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  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    pando83 wrote: »
    I disagree. What you basically say is "hey guys, we need to either be close to impossible to hit (mod5 beginning) while dealing high DPS, OR oneshot people".

    Are you serious.

    Dude. You guys have high DPS, among the highest as it should be. You have dazes, dodge rolls, ITC, high deflect and highest deflection severity which, on top of everything else, together with tenacity can nullify most CC such as stuns. I see it happening quite often in PvP. A lot of tools to chose from depending on the build.
    Adapt to it: like ANY OTHER CLASS you guys need to have your chance to attack and then work your *** off to dodge attacks with dodges, or timing your daze to daze the opponent, or pop ITC exc...

    The way i see it, you now pick your target from stealth, start with a strong DPS move which is not supposed to be a 1-shot at least on tank players, but a hard hit (let's say you can hit for a good 25k), may be follow fast with another hit, then DODGE. Like any other class. Time your dodges. Build tankier and use your deflection as a quite strong counter to CC and DPS. Along with dodge immunity, or dazes, or ITC, you have the tools to survive the 2s and try to get away. Is it safe? NO. Is it guaranteed? NO. But so is for other classes. No other class have either 1-shots or amazing survivability.

    You are basically complaining cause you are not able to be out of reach 99% of the time and you want, in exchange, the ability to end a fight before it even starts.

    The enemy will get their chance to fight back and, oh god, you will get hit and even killed!!!!

    TRs need fix to AVOID one shots, then they are fine. 20k lashing blade is a good DPS move, tools to avoid damage are there, learn to react to what the enemy do and time your dodges in those 2 seconds. After all, if other classes can fight timing their dodges and moves while being in plain sight, i'm sure you can time your dodges or dazes or ITC for 2 seconds.

    Or, if you want to be a survivalist, just go perma and hold nodes while not attacking/ using few attacks.

    Permastealth with, as counter, your usual "listen to sounds", "train to predict where the invisible TR is", "use your Jedi powers to take latency into account and nail a 0.2s chance to hit, while i safely decide when and where to attack, and time only my own rotation to reduce my vulnerability to nothing", it's all gone. You now fight like any other class, with your strenghts but also weaknesses.

    If you are hit with cc skils by a skilled played from the classes that exist, the result below is what I have experienced

    If a tr gets caught by a SW while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 4 seconds (at range)
    If a tr gets caught by a CW while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 3 seconds (at range)
    If a tr gets caught by a GF while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 5 seconds (close range)
    If a tr gets caught by a GWF while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in either 2 or 4 seconds (close range) 1 shot intimidation @ range
    If a tr gets caught by a DC while ITC is on cooldown that TR can die in less than 6 seconds (at range)
    If a tr gets caught by a TR while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 4 seconds (close range)
    If a tr gets caught by a HR while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 5 seconds (close range) 3 seconds at range

    Granted no everyone knows the best combos for their class just yet. I feel some of these kill times can be speed up in some cases.

    If two skilled players come head to head the duration of combat can be increased as well to an indefinite time span, until one person makes a mistake, and then the death time goes back up to the listed times above.

    What you see is OUR adaptation to the change. You deal with it....

    How can you say no other class has one shot kills? DO we even play the same game?

    In mod 5, in icewindale, we came forward to attack a gwf... guess what happened? The GWF sprinted did some funky weak attack, then BAM intimidation and everyone took 30k - 36k damage and died. Multiple people instantly died dude...

    We are forced with the new stealth mechanic to either one shot you before you can smash us in 4 seconds or less at range.
    Or
    We are forced to daze you from stealth and try to combo you to death before the daze ends.
    (one counter daze or stun to a TR is enough to kill him - I do it all the time)

    It seems you did not read my post or understand it 100% because you repeated some of the stuff I said we are forced to do.

    I am not complaining about anything. I said the stealth changes forced TR to do what they do and nothing more.

    This is the adaptation lol why can't you see that?
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  • grac3n77grac3n77 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 234 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Blame it on the artifacts if you dont have at lease 3 legendary artifacts plus rank 8 and up enchant or greater and up for armor and weapon enchant don't even think you can win no matter what class your fighting.
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    grac3n77 wrote: »
    Blame it on the artifacts if you dont have at lease 3 legendary artifacts plus rank 8 and up enchant or greater and up for armor and weapon enchant don't even think you can win no matter what class your fighting.

    correct!

    (gear is playing a major role in pvp)
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  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Snip

    It would be one thing, if the one shot was the old lashing blade one shot build, because that actually took skill to pull off (first strike + increased crit damage after crit, meaning you had to crit, then come out of combat THEN lashing) but the new 1 shot is an auto lock on daily that half the classes literally have NO way to avoid.

    Its not as if you can stack DR high enough, tenacity high enough, be in unstoppable or use sprint, it doesnt matter. Good TRs have DC artifact and a neck with AP gain meaning they can get dailies INCREDIBLY fast and boom. Dead with no skill, literally press 1 button, locks on, makes no difference what they do or what you did, heck you could even hide in stealth the entire time and just pop a DC artifact for a kill.

    Its not as if you even have to "chance" it cause you get 100% crit in stealth! And you dont even care about the enemies DR/Tenacity because it bypasses ALL of it.

    THE SOLUTION: ALL attacks (even ones that bypass DR) are still affected by Tenacity. This would reduce the complaints and make the TR much more fair. Also would reduce HR damage as well.

    Basically NO damage should be able to avoid Tenacity.

    An easy way to code this?

    I would look into just having things like SE or "piercing damage" attack with 100% boost to ARP. This would make those attacks completely ignore DR without affecting tenacity and also would allow them to deflect - another thing that SHOULD be in the game.
  • vasdamasvasdamas Member Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    We are forced to daze you from stealth and try to combo you to death before the daze ends.
    (one counter daze or stun to a TR is enough to kill him - I do it all the time)
    Daze and attack > dodge > steath > repeat till the target dies. That way one might as well play a CW, almost same mechanic but with way less damage, melee and with perma potential. Without ITC I'd call it a "high risk with great reward" but that thing just kills it :D
    Just don't know, I go queue up or roam IWD and feel like one of those post m2 GWFs. God-like and unkillable.

    PvE is just awesome though, think rogues are so good that they can catch up with CWs/ SWs sometimes. If only PvP was not so "single target based" and had some interesting PvP modes..


    UPD Also, piercing damage? Who the hell came up with this ****ing joke. Might as well just remove all defense from PvP now
  • bjanubjanu Member Posts: 122 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    If you are hit with cc skils by a skilled played from the classes that exist, the result below is what I have experienced

    If a tr gets caught by a SW while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 4 seconds (at range)
    If a tr gets caught by a CW while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 3 seconds (at range)
    If a tr gets caught by a GF while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 5 seconds (close range)
    If a tr gets caught by a GWF while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in either 2 or 4 seconds (close range) 1 shot intimidation @ range
    If a tr gets caught by a DC while ITC is on cooldown that TR can die in less than 6 seconds (at range)
    If a tr gets caught by a TR while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 4 seconds (close range)
    If a tr gets caught by a HR while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 5 seconds (close range) 3 seconds at range

    Granted no everyone knows the best combos for their class just yet. I feel some of these kill times can be speed up in some cases.

    If two skilled players come head to head the duration of combat can be increased as well to an indefinite time span, until one person makes a mistake, and then the death time goes back up to the listed times above.

    What you see is OUR adaptation to the change. You deal with it....

    How can you say no other class has one shot kills? DO we even play the same game?

    In mod 5, in icewindale, we came forward to attack a gwf... guess what happened? The GWF sprinted did some funky weak attack, then BAM intimidation and everyone took 30k - 36k damage and died. Multiple people instantly died dude...

    We are forced with the new stealth mechanic to either one shot you before you can smash us in 4 seconds or less at range.
    Or
    We are forced to daze you from stealth and try to combo you to death before the daze ends.
    (one counter daze or stun to a TR is enough to kill him - I do it all the time)

    It seems you did not read my post or understand it 100% because you repeated some of the stuff I said we are forced to do.

    I am not complaining about anything. I said the stealth changes forced TR to do what they do and nothing more.

    This is the adaptation lol why can't you see that?

    That's the problem you say people can do that in 3-5 seconds reality is that no one is going to stand still - the dodges and high deflect chances with the superior severity makes the rogues amazingly hard to kill - i play hr archer and even with enough range and hunter mark i find it amusingly long killing a tr that is not standing still, and this class is supposed to have superior range damage. That means that if i am not fighting a rogue i cant kill it while it screws my teammates - the overall balance is broken - rogues have great 1v1, so what the problem is it doesn't have a clear weakness not even in 2 v 1 or 3 v 1. No one other class can win vs 2 people of the same gs as easy as rogues. The only thing that changes when facing more enemies - the amount of time they spent sheathed waiting for recharge.
  • xmousepadxxmousepadx Member Posts: 381 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    If you are hit with cc skils by a skilled played from the classes that exist, the result below is what I have experienced

    If a tr gets caught by a SW while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 4 seconds (at range)
    If a tr gets caught by a CW while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 3 seconds (at range)
    If a tr gets caught by a GF while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 5 seconds (close range)
    If a tr gets caught by a GWF while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in either 2 or 4 seconds (close range) 1 shot intimidation @ range
    If a tr gets caught by a DC while ITC is on cooldown that TR can die in less than 6 seconds (at range)
    If a tr gets caught by a TR while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 4 seconds (close range)
    If a tr gets caught by a HR while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 5 seconds (close range) 3 seconds at range


    Granted no everyone knows the best combos for their class just yet. I feel some of these kill times can be speed up in some cases.

    If two skilled players come head to head the duration of combat can be increased as well to an indefinite time span, until one person makes a mistake, and then the death time goes back up to the listed times above.

    What you see is OUR adaptation to the change. You deal with it....

    How can you say no other class has one shot kills? DO we even play the same game?

    In mod 5, in icewindale, we came forward to attack a gwf... guess what happened? The GWF sprinted did some funky weak attack, then BAM intimidation and everyone took 30k - 36k damage and died. Multiple people instantly died dude...

    We are forced with the new stealth mechanic to either one shot you before you can smash us in 4 seconds or less at range.
    Or
    We are forced to daze you from stealth and try to combo you to death before the daze ends.
    (one counter daze or stun to a TR is enough to kill him - I do it all the time)

    It seems you did not read my post or understand it 100% because you repeated some of the stuff I said we are forced to do.

    I am not complaining about anything. I said the stealth changes forced TR to do what they do and nothing more.

    This is the adaptation lol why can't you see that?

    Any class that gets cought dies in a few sec...
    Apart from that, half decent Trs dont get cought and even if they do, they can just Bloodbath and reset every cooldown! Not that the cooldown reset matters that much, cuz everything dies in 1 bb anyway.

    Right now with the amounts of Ap gain, ITC cooldown and dodges, you may have a 2sec window to kill an TR, which in itself is nonsense already.

    Also getting stealth back with dodges is an issue now, u can be in stealth 99% of the time with 0 recovery and exe specc...
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    ^ agree 100% with Mouz

    Also a major issue with TRs is the piercing damage. They need to remove all abilities that bypass DR. if you want it to work LIKE piercing damage, make these types of attack hit with 100% armor pen. This way tenacity still plays an effects as well as deflect. That right there would help fix TRs.
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    If you are hit with cc skils by a skilled played from the classes that exist, the result below is what I have experienced

    If a tr gets caught by a SW while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 4 seconds (at range)
    If a tr gets caught by a CW while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 3 seconds (at range)
    If a tr gets caught by a GF while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 5 seconds (close range)
    If a tr gets caught by a GWF while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in either 2 or 4 seconds (close range) 1 shot intimidation @ range
    If a tr gets caught by a DC while ITC is on cooldown that TR can die in less than 6 seconds (at range)
    If a tr gets caught by a TR while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 4 seconds (close range)
    If a tr gets caught by a HR while ITC is on cooldown that TR will die in less than 5 seconds (close range) 3 seconds at range

    Granted no everyone knows the best combos for their class just yet. I feel some of these kill times can be speed up in some cases.

    If two skilled players come head to head the duration of combat can be increased as well to an indefinite time span, until one person makes a mistake, and then the death time goes back up to the listed times above.

    What you see is OUR adaptation to the change. You deal with it....

    How can you say no other class has one shot kills? DO we even play the same game?

    In mod 5, in icewindale, we came forward to attack a gwf... guess what happened? The GWF sprinted did some funky weak attack, then BAM intimidation and everyone took 30k - 36k damage and died. Multiple people instantly died dude...

    We are forced with the new stealth mechanic to either one shot you before you can smash us in 4 seconds or less at range.
    Or
    We are forced to daze you from stealth and try to combo you to death before the daze ends.
    (one counter daze or stun to a TR is enough to kill him - I do it all the time)

    It seems you did not read my post or understand it 100% because you repeated some of the stuff I said we are forced to do.

    I am not complaining about anything. I said the stealth changes forced TR to do what they do and nothing more.

    This is the adaptation lol why can't you see that?

    Intimidation, in fact, got a nerf. And i have yet to see it one-shotting people since then. You need both cagi and DS to hit. You see cagi/DS, you instantly roll and avoid following move.
    One-shots are not adaptation.
    Others mentioned the rest of the stuff.
    Every class now dies fast when caught. You missed that. CW dies like that. Non-inti gwf is screwed if it fails attiming his sprint. HR dies fast if cc-burst by a CW. SW the same. Expecially red glyphed CW/HR burst you down at the speed of light.

    Too much DPS in pvp is an issue for everyone.

    You have immunity on dodges. Time them like any other class is forced to do.

    You don't need permastealth to fight, you don't need on-shots either. These are extremes.

    Any class dies fast now if caught. DPS/piercing damage destroyed pvp. My insti gwf with close to 50% dr, 33% deflect, 40k hp and 1.6k regen + lathander set+ legendary blood raven skull is down fast if a bis CW or HR or TR gets me for good if i fail at using my sprint or time my unstoppable.

    Too much DPS around.
  • emilemoemilemo Member Posts: 1,718 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    pando83 wrote: »
    You don't need permastealth to fight, you don't need on-shots either. These are extremes.

    Im pretty sure the rogue players already know that. I mean, I rolled a rogue during x2 XP and did alot of random doms on the way to 60. Got to page 2 and even page 1 at a point and I wasnt even trying to get there. I simply had high or highest score in almost every match I played while on my very first rogue. Sure I had a GPF and some epic gear but I killed plenty of people who obviously had tried really hard to get all possible advantages you can get at lower level pvp (killed a ton of rogues too). Bottom line, if you have a half decent grasp on Neverwinter combat and know how to move around you are gonna rule the battle with a TR. Currently no other class seems as capable. Truth is the rogue can be a great melee fighter right now with deleted stealth. By simply using: mobility(insane movement speed without any reds in utility ), dodge rolls, insane deflect ( mine is currently ~50% at 15k gs without boons ), insane crit rate ( also ~50% ) and encounters that get the job done. Me being primarily a GWF influences how I play the rogue i.e. I brawl. I dont start in stealth, I use it later. Maybe the mid tree is just that crazy op with the dazing effect. I need to play vs that with a class without unstop to make a call.

    So, after having experienced the rogue first hand I can say this: a class with Dodge and a decent player can battle a TR and even win. When the TR moves to strike he can be spotted just before he hits ergo they like to backstab. If one pays attention, one can dodge/block, if one is already engaged with an opponent, one is screwed. Here the GWFs and the SWs get the shaft tho since sprint is simply not fast enough to activate and avoid. Sth needs to be done about Sprint, like speed up activation time, more responsiveness. All damage in the game should respect some DR with ArmPen being the only thing capable of bypassing it.

    But of course these things are already known to most of you. So, lets sit back and wait to see what the devs are cookin. Also..

    HAPPY NEW YEAR :D
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  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    emilemo wrote: »
    ......When the TR moves to strike he can be spotted just before he hits ergo they like to backstab. If one pays attention, one can dodge/block, .....

    HAPPY NEW YEAR :D


    ^^^^

    Dodge block?
    i am a Gf i saw the shade of a tr behind me and did not one but two things.Block and bloodcrystal in advance.Two moves while you said one is possible.Let's see the result...

    Your Health Regen gives 3107 (2818) Hit Points to you.

    [Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 3107 (2818) Hit Points to you.

    [Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 3107 (2818) Hit Points to you.

    [Combat (Self)] Your Blood Crystal Raven Skull absorbs 10012 damage from Immortal's Lashing Blade.

    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Immortal deals 40398 (65222) Physical Damage to you with Lashing Blade.

    [Combat (Self)] Immortal gives 0 Hit Points to you with Kill.


    Bottom line:TRs need DRASTICALLY decrease in their dps.I do not have problem with dodges but when encounters hit 60k unmitigated damage for norm sure we have a problem.

    First strike,100$ crit from stealth and some feats (mainly exe) need to look to.
    Their dazes should also cut in half AS ALREADY IS THE NORM FOR OTHER CLASSES.
  • reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    really man? did you need to post that in three ****ing topics?
    2e2qwj6.jpg
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