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The basics of pvp
overdriver13
Member Posts: 1,521 Arc User
This is for people who are not sure how pvp works and is intended to improve the domination game and experience for all.
Summary
*You are ALWAYS blue team to you. The enemy is always red team to you.
*A node is the circular platform with a tower in the middle of it.
*There are three nodes
*When a node is filled in blue, it is generating points for your team every second.
*When a node is filled in red it is generating points for the enemy team every second.
*The first team to get to 1000 points wins the match.
*A node that is both red and blue is contested and is gaining zero points for either team
*A node that is grey gains zero points for either team
Objective
To keep the nodes blue for as long as possible and red for as short a time as possible.
How to accomplish the objective
*Always be on a node that is either filled in red or is both red and blue.
*Keep the enemy off of blue/contested nodes. You can do this by either killing them while they are on the node or by forcing them to not be on the node either by making them afraid to fight on it or by "kiting" them off the node.
*The goal of the game is not to survive or kill the most enemies. The goal of the game is to keep the majority of the nodes blue from start to finish. If you are going to die, die on the node. Then go right back to it and die again.
Things that give you the best chance of winning
*4 of 5 your team goes to the node in the middle at the very start of the game. 1 of your team goes to the node closest to your campfire spawn (home node). If you dominate (make blue) both the middle node and home node at the start of the game you have an immediate advantage over the other team.
*4 of 5 of your team goes to mid node and one (a tr) goes to the enemy node at start.
*5 of 5 of your team goes to mid node at start of game.
You see how important it is to dominate the middle node as soon as possible. The most basic strategy is to keep mid and home node blue through most of the match while forcing the other team to attempt to take mid node while defending their own home node.
____________________________________
Ok those are the very basics. This is for pugging. Guild premades get more complicated and there is a lot more to this for people who are good at pvp but these basics will give you the best chance of winning against an average pug.
I see a lot of players who are well geared and play their class well in combat but who consistently lose matches because they don't really get what I said above there. You can be undergeared and still win most matches in pugs.
More advanced stuff goes into team composition, node rotation, forcing 1v3 for extended periods of time and so on.
Pvp might seem frustrating to newer players but it cannot be even close to as frustrating as it is to an experienced player who forces 3 of the enemy team to fight him alone on the enemies home node for a minute or two and still, STILL the other two nodes are red. If you force 3 of the enemy team to fight you by yourself on their home node, that means there is only one of the enemy team for each of the other nodes. So that gives your team a 2v1 advantage on each of those other nodes, which they should be able to dominate or at the very least, contest.
Well there it is. I hope it is read and something like this stickied because the info is desperately needed by so many who pug.
Summary
*You are ALWAYS blue team to you. The enemy is always red team to you.
*A node is the circular platform with a tower in the middle of it.
*There are three nodes
*When a node is filled in blue, it is generating points for your team every second.
*When a node is filled in red it is generating points for the enemy team every second.
*The first team to get to 1000 points wins the match.
*A node that is both red and blue is contested and is gaining zero points for either team
*A node that is grey gains zero points for either team
Objective
To keep the nodes blue for as long as possible and red for as short a time as possible.
How to accomplish the objective
*Always be on a node that is either filled in red or is both red and blue.
*Keep the enemy off of blue/contested nodes. You can do this by either killing them while they are on the node or by forcing them to not be on the node either by making them afraid to fight on it or by "kiting" them off the node.
*The goal of the game is not to survive or kill the most enemies. The goal of the game is to keep the majority of the nodes blue from start to finish. If you are going to die, die on the node. Then go right back to it and die again.
Things that give you the best chance of winning
*4 of 5 your team goes to the node in the middle at the very start of the game. 1 of your team goes to the node closest to your campfire spawn (home node). If you dominate (make blue) both the middle node and home node at the start of the game you have an immediate advantage over the other team.
*4 of 5 of your team goes to mid node and one (a tr) goes to the enemy node at start.
*5 of 5 of your team goes to mid node at start of game.
You see how important it is to dominate the middle node as soon as possible. The most basic strategy is to keep mid and home node blue through most of the match while forcing the other team to attempt to take mid node while defending their own home node.
____________________________________
Ok those are the very basics. This is for pugging. Guild premades get more complicated and there is a lot more to this for people who are good at pvp but these basics will give you the best chance of winning against an average pug.
I see a lot of players who are well geared and play their class well in combat but who consistently lose matches because they don't really get what I said above there. You can be undergeared and still win most matches in pugs.
More advanced stuff goes into team composition, node rotation, forcing 1v3 for extended periods of time and so on.
Pvp might seem frustrating to newer players but it cannot be even close to as frustrating as it is to an experienced player who forces 3 of the enemy team to fight him alone on the enemies home node for a minute or two and still, STILL the other two nodes are red. If you force 3 of the enemy team to fight you by yourself on their home node, that means there is only one of the enemy team for each of the other nodes. So that gives your team a 2v1 advantage on each of those other nodes, which they should be able to dominate or at the very least, contest.
Well there it is. I hope it is read and something like this stickied because the info is desperately needed by so many who pug.
Post edited by overdriver13 on
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Comments
It's always very frustrating to play with players who fight off the nodes because they, and I quote, "will die if they go on the nodes" and it always feels like an uphill battle explaining how PvP is not dependent on Kills:Deaths in any way and more often than not you help the team more by dying than surviving.
The one thing I would add is that the individual points are useless to judge a person's effectiveness so do not play to obtain them. A person who runs on to a node, contests the node even for a few seconds and dies without killing somebody is far more helpful than a person who fights off the node, doesn't contest, doesn't die and kills people.
Often times backcappers and people who strategically cause the enemy team to split focus end up with the lowest scores but are the direct cause for success. For instance I used to backcap with my GF in Mod 2 simply because he required 2-3 people to kill him. He rarely got kills or captured nodes but by being an immovable rock on the enemy node he allowed the other four members on the team to dominate the other two nodes. This is the same premise for Permastealth builds in Mod 3 and 4.
its pretty simple mechanic to learn even if its your first time entering PVP domination.
Maybe the devs can add a sign in Trade of Blades with the above instructions.
I don't think that the people that need to read this in order to understand pvp will visit the forums and find out.
Make the above quote an ingame feature. That will help a lot, not only those that don't know how to pvp but also those that find themselves in the frustrating position to have to explain these things to their teammates while in a match.
The beauty of an MMORPG is you can kind of do what you want. But Id agree it may be helpful. Though I highly doubt anyone doesnt actually understand the concept of node holding. Even FPS players from CoD would understand "domination" style play. (this concept/game style is old, only relatively young, new to gaming in general, may not understand it) I think most arent because of particular circumstances mostly related to the matchmaking system and only having one game mode.
On a side note, I dislike zerging. I only zerged in Cod in domination gameplay cause I could kill 20 players with a LMG and hold a point solo. And I believe zerging is a valid tactic in this game for a couple reasons that I find negative.
1. Matchmaking is not good - thats the truth, when you have a 5 12k gs vs 5 18k gs yah all you can do is zerg typically
2. Small maps, tactical gameplay is limited. The whole idea outlined by this thread is throw yourself on a point. Thats not tactical at all.
PS. I understand this is for pugs, but still not tactical at all. Higher lvl matches the only real tactical gameplay is rotations and comms are required.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Yes, indeed
Thank you for the reply, lets please keep it super positive though, I really want anyone who reads this (who needs to) to come away with an upbeat feeling about pvp.
Yes I do. Recently in a different thread I laid out some pvp basics in frustration and a player thanked me because they had no idea of what I said before I said it. I hate complaining about things unless I am doing what I can do within reason, to help fix the problem.
I agree. I would go so far as saying an in-game pvp tutorial (like what you get at the beginning of the game for pve), is called for. But I'd be happy with the sign.
I totally agree and I think we should politely and privately ask the mods to copy and paste or put some version of this, into a sticky. To newer players, from the pvp community. Or just from the mods. It just needs to be put out there.
You have to have the basics down before you get too tactical. At least half of the pugs don't have the basics down. So you come in playing tactical to give your low gs pug team a shot and they fail to take advantage of the 2v1's you are giving them, of the empty red nodes, fail to contest, fail to rotate. If even one player is playing tactically all the rest of the team has to do is play "ok". Small maps don't help in terms of getting too complicated and I think that is the point.
It's terrible that absolutely none of this is explained in the game itself. It's obvious that capturing nodes and holding them scores points, but because there's no information available in the game I had assumed that points were also scored for killing members of the enemy team. Instead of sticking to a node I'd chase someone halfway across the board to kill them and think I was helping, or I'd retreat to heal "so I don't give them more points when they kill me". I mean, when this isn't explained by the game itself these are easy conclusions to come to and when you're just starting the most you tend to get in the way of advice is that one guy on your team who keeps screaming "You all suck!" at his own team in chat instead of telling them how to do better.
When I finish grinding out the winter festival ([Dorry]just keep fishing, just keep fishing . . .[/Dorry]) I'll be able to enter PVP for my daily astral diamonds and not suck quite as bad.
The Prime Rule - getting better in PvP only starts with your acknowledgement that you, in all likelihood, totally suck, contrary to what you believe.
1. Get yourself prepared for PvP if you want to PvP. If you're not adequately prepared, your defeat is entirely your own fault.
2. The meta changes, all the time. Be prepared to have to change along with the meta -- a change that may include your power choices, builds, equipment combinations, even stats or race. It takes investment to remain competitive. If you don't want to invest, then don't expect to be competent. If you don't want to change a thing with your current settings, then expect to lose - a lot.
3. When you keep on losing, then Occam's Razor dictates that the chances are, it's all on you. If you want to complain, make sure that you've done everything possible within the limits of the game. When you're sure you did everything you could, it's still more than likely it's your fault, not the game's.
4. Assume always the worst: there is ALWAYS someone who kicks your butt. That someone may be a famous player, or that someone maybe a totally unknown guy you've never met before. Doesn't make any difference -- if you lose, whether by your own mistake, or from a totally unfair gangbang -- its still your fault.
People who understand the above 5 rules usually become good players really quick and adapt fast. People who don't basically never get better regardless of how long they've actually played the game.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Written by a true Tr humble as ever toward others -ya da man Kweassa.....
It's a rule that applies in any game with any class.
Can't you even engage in a single forum post without doing that anti-TR <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> shi* you people do? Jesus Christ. :rolleyes:
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Cant you even engage in a single forum post without trying to tell people to lp2 with that everybody is a nab-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> shi* holy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>....
Getting someone to chase you away from a contested or blue capped node, to the advantage of your team, is "kiting". It is like drawing agro in pve and can be an effective way to tilt the game in your teams favor.
Hopefully you end up enjoying pvp enough to play it for more than dailies
I don't disagree with any of this but
#1 The point is to get the very basics of pvp across to those who are generally casual players and maybe, hopefully, entice them to play more pvp. We need that. Que times, poor matchmaking, so many of the problems in pvp come down to simply not enough people playing pvp.
#2 No one wants to think "I suck", you might as well tell everyone pvp is an unfortunate part of the game that most players are going to have a bad experience with. How about people simply manage their expectations and do not expect to win much until they get good at it.
Wanna win in pvp? Know the basics, have adequate (not great) gear, get into a premade of others who meet the same last two standards, get everyone on mic and get coordinated. You'll plow through everyone till you get to the first 100 pages of the leaderboard and you start really running into other well coordinated groups.
Chill guys, we want the community to grow, not shrink. Otherwise all that legendary gear and mad skill become horse and pony in a show with no spectators.
Nice thread, but nobody will read it and the teenage players are mostly allergic to "and red for as short a time as possible." NO, IMPOSSIBLE, we have to run at the nearest enemy and attack them until one of us is dead. At least the other PUG teams are like that so I win a lot.
I was probably one of the most abusive players you could imagine, "FAILPARADEFIGHTONFINGNODESIDIOTSCHRISTIMOUT!!!!". Then when buddies log on and premade is filled, zergging and spanking and mercilessly slapping the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of the same pugs that were on my team in earlier matches. Like revenge.
But it doesn't really help at all and is one of the stupid things you think about when playing with your, uh, sword, in trade of blades for a half hour waiting for pvp que to pop because most of the playerbase, most of humanity for that matter, really doesn't like to be yelled at or be made to look dumb.
At the very least at the start of a match I try to type out real quick, "All to point 2, fight on points please, thanks gg
No one has to be all smiles and fake nice but just like how you roll your toon in a match, think of how what you are saying is either helpful or not helpful during a match. Like a simple flow chart: "Is saying it going to help us win this match?" If yes, say it, if no, zip it and say something that will help.
Sometimes it helps blow steam. Sometimes, there are actually people who listen to it and change their behaviour gameplay according to such insults and actually help turn the game around -- rare moments, but does happen (in which case always, an apology is warranted).
Basically, IMO insults are to be only as hard as the pigheadedness that warrants it. There ARE really some cases of entirely clueless people, who don't listen to anything when people say it nicely. So when you're up against anyone who goes like "STFU, nobody orders me around" or "ROFL everyone knows you first cap the back node and defend to win", then by all means, fire away.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Congratulations, you're part of the problem and chasing people away from PVP and possibly the game as a whole.
Mostly though if you start spewing insults one of three things happen:
1: You get put on peoples ignore list so they don't have to put up with your poor attitude and worse sportsmanship.
2: They just stop playing so they don't have to deal with the verbal abuse they're getting from the toxic playerbase.
3: They start flaming right back and instead of anyone learning anything you just get a huge argument.
Joking aside, those points are - as a matter of fact - the EXACT thing a new player must acknowledge and overcome, and in the EXACT manner as you have mentioned, meets a lot of psychological resistance within the player.
Usually, when people begin a multiplayer game, they start out with PvE. In PvE, nothing really hurts your feelings or pride because nobody is there watching you fail, or reminding you of how much you are weak. After a while, you become a little more confident, and start to grow more on pride as you learn how to "skillfully" take down a strong mob/NPC.
So after a while, you try your hand at PvP, and I can guarantee everyone's first experience is simply humiliating. The first time I ventured a bit further awat from Castle Britannia and made my way towards Trinsic, I met a band of murdering thieves and watched myself get drawn and quartered, literally. Nothing I knew worked on those people, and it wasn't even a 1vs1. So, naturally, when something like this happens to you, you get angry, and you try your hand a few more times.
It doesn't help. Nothing changes. You get creamed again and again -- and it is at this point you first meet the above pointers.
Your pride is shattered, you realize that you are no match... and of course, the human mind seeks answers. Many people find the answer, and comfort, by believing that the game screwed you over. They fool themselves to be rid of the humiliation. They start believing they're a good player, and since they're good, and they shouldn't be losing so pathetically so often, it can only mean either their opponents are cheating, or the game is unbalanced.
Now, the rest of the bunch, smaller, fewer in numbers, these people are relentless. They first go through the painstaking process of acknowledging that they suck - that PvE performance they so proud of means jackshi*, and basically they have to start over, from the bottom, knowing that almost everyone you see in a PvP match will ROFLSTOMP you, and you're just that pathetic weak newbies. It's only when they go through this psychological ordeal, sort of baptism by fire style, that they are properly motivated to study and practice to become a good player.
I've been in PvP scene for more than 20 years over a variety of games, and even for me, trying out the very first PvP match of a new game I am in, is always as much challenging and nervous as the first day in the land of Sosaria. It never gets easier. But when you know what's coming after that humiliating initiation - it's that point where PvP starts becoming fun.
So people DO need to know they suck. They absolutely MUST know, or they never grow to become better.
(ps) Ironically, most people don't even realize just how much they suck, until they become at least good enough to realize how much they suck, because the PvP scene is just full of freaks and monsters who can pull off just amazing, incredible things with reflexes or judgement, that only when you become a bit proficient that you finally realize just how incredibl ahead those 'naturally talented' sort of super-duper players are.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You are right. people DO read these posts, even if they don't reply. There are always lurkers on the forums. Thanks for posting these tips, your original post clears up a lot of things and answered many questions. I will probably continue to get pwnd, but at least I'll have an idea of what to do and whats going on.
For those that have advocated insulting other players, you are on the wrong track. Much better to give some friendly advice to your team before the match starts than to throw out insults. Ignorance does not mean stupid, and a little respect for people goes a long way.