to add on, a scoundrel truly trying to daze as much as possible will be using 2 daze encounters with the last as itc or whisperknife choice. as such, scoundrel capstone isn't very effective since it will proc on-top of the daze encounters. concussive strikes will likely proc during a daze or flurry (near the end if lucky) so it will have max to no benefit depending on when it procs, but it does help for approaching easily.
Which, empirically implies this reported permadze is simply a farce.
At least, speaking for MI/Scos, the necessity of ITC and SS remains constant as a TR. Seeing as how even the current Sabs require SS to remain at the utmost competency possible, a build that engages in PvP without BOTH SS and ITC is just no an option. This typically leaves ONE encounter slot to be used, and the given choice is most definately Dazing Strike. In some cases of course Smoke Bomb could be warranted, but in general SB is defensive in nature and lacks consistency. The long recharge time is also a problem, hence SB is considered to be a team-oriented power most commonly used at the mid-node.
OTOH, Dazing Strike actually used to have a higher DPS than LB in prior mods, when LB didn't use to have the extra +50% severity bonus. Dazing Strike recharge is less than half of LB recharge, and yet the overall damage was higher than half of LB. Over a course of time where ONE LB is used, DS would be used twice and deal higher damage than a single shot of LB, the 4s daze effects being another bonus. The only reason why DS was not very popular is of course, the impossibility of hitting it against a moving target. Now that it is much easier to hit with, the natural choice of a MI/Sco would fall down to ITC/DS/SS as the three encounters.
...
A series of pre-planned, long dazes are almost entirely from WK/Scos, since the absence of ITC, ironically allows them a freedom to choose another encounter of their choice, and in this case the best choice being VP, so a seasoned WK/Sco would typically go forward with VP/DS/SS -- in which case a planned course of "long-daze" is possible.
When the initial stealth duration is about to end the TR will throw a shot of VP which will imitiate SC and CS at the same time. Being predominantly ranged a follow up of CoS shots will easily extend the first SC to the theoretical 6 seconds. As the 6s maximum daze duration of SC is about to be reached a 2nd CS daze is likely to happen at some point, and then ofcourse, VP(teleport) will close the distance to melee range to immediately follow up with a DS.
This means as long as SC is available a WK/Sco will be able to extend his dazes into one long series of dazes that lasts upto some 8~10s. After the full limit of the chained dazes are reached the WK/Sco will hit SS and fade back into stealth, which, after 5~6 seconds SC will be readied to be procced again.
Ofcourse, even in this case, the chainded dazes are only meaningful under a 1vs1 context, as the existence of another hostile player in the vicinity (preferably those with ranged CCs) will simply neuter the performance of the WK at the spot. Also, this "long daze" tactics are made only possible because the WK doesn't have ITC in the first place (hence, he chooses another optional encounter to set his SC attack in parallel to the daze from DS). What this implies is pretty clear -- if you can figure out the start of the "long-daze", then you can simply break out of the daze with Oghma's and attempt to CC the WK in reverse, in which case if you succeed then the tables are turned.
scoundrel dazes help, but majority of it is from encounters and is greatly benefiting due to dazing strike having it's animation sped up. even without the daze feats, i still think we would be doing similarly just from the animation speed buffs we received.
Most likely.
Many people simply cannot distinguish between whether they were simply hit by Dazing Strike, or if they were really effected by Scoundrel feats. People also simply exaggerate. They could have plenty of uptime, and yet, if they were dazed at some crucial moments then they would remember it as being "perma-dazed". It is one of the reasons why using anecdotes as a basis to determining what is going on in PvP is simply useless and worthless.
By all means, we really must try to make a habit out of making videos when we want to strongly emphasize a certain point in discussions. A small amount of money spent on basic tools such as Fraps helps. usually all you need is Fraps, a trusty enconder, and Youtube. That's what I use.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If I start at 100% health reach 50%-30% BEFORE I can do anything at all, then I have 1 second or less before I am right back in daze straight to zero life, that is PERMA-DAZE.
No matter how you try and slice it going from 100%-0% in the matter of 10 seconds or less and have ZERO chance to even defend yourself is PERMA-DAZE.
If I start at 100% health reach 50%-30% BEFORE I can do anything at all, then I have 1 second or less before I am right back in daze straight to zero life, that is PERMA-DAZE.
No matter how you try and slice it going from 100%-0% in the matter of 10 seconds or less and have ZERO chance to even defend yourself is PERMA-DAZE.
there are TR;s probably with exec build that can pretty much one shot me, 37-39k lashing on my tank gwf, they can follow up pretty much with CoS, cause is not much i can do or do a SE just for fun and laugh hard of my silly attempt to go unstoppable. It rly doesnt matter if they stun/prone/daze...
Stealth change was a very good move, but they also need a dmg reduction (take the 100% crit chance from stealth, make it a 10-15% crit).
there are TR;s probably with exec build that can pretty much one shot me, 37-39k lashing on my tank gwf, they can follow up pretty much with CoS, cause is not much i can do or do a SE just for fun and laugh hard of my silly attempt to go unstoppable. It rly doesnt matter if they stun/prone/daze...
Stealth change was a very good move, but they also need a dmg reduction (take the 100% crit chance from stealth, make it a 10-15% crit).
I quite disagree that stealth was not the issue.
Thanks to permastealth and semipermastealth TRs were able to be the most survivable class. They were premades node holders. 1v1 quite hard to just hit. You know it.
It was doable through hard training and experience. Does not mean it was balanced. TR solutions to fight stealth are
Use a good headset and locate me through sounds i make
Train super hard and learn to predict where i am in stealth
Learn to nail a 0.2s chance to catch me. Even so, i can SF back and gwf back to stealth. And your cc can get often nullified by deflection+tenacity. So have luck too, please.
In module 5 it got even harder cause of damage boost, dodge roll boost and pretty much permastealth or semiperma still there.
Being able to be out of reach 99% of the time unless the enemy is ultra skilled and trained is NOT balanced. I know, easily avoiding most of the damage coming at you feels good. when the enemy must struggle and train hard to just hit you while you have lag on your side and just need to time your powers to link them leaving almost no openings.
If you feel squishy out of stealth you can have damage resistance in exchange.
Stealth limitations were needed.
Every class have vulnerability. Being virtually squishy but 99% of the time out of reach unless the enemy can find you with 100% personal skill, monster training, low lag and good 5.1 sound is not vulnerability. You guys know it and not even you can come up with a reasonable counter/weakness to old stealth/module 5 stealth+dodges.
Training hundred of hours specifically to find a perma TR, 5.1 sound, prediction, 0.2s timing through latency or you've to l2p, are not real solutions.
It's like saying "hey bro, let's jump off this 30m building. It's doable. I'll land on that huge swimming pool. You can do it too. But you have to jump into that 1m-wide barrel of water. Oh, come on. Can't you do that? How skill-less"
It's like saying "hey bro, let's jump off this 30m building. It's doable. I'll land on that huge swimming pool. You can do it too. But you have to jump into that 1m-wide barrel of water. Oh, come on. Can't you do that? How skill-less"
As an avid player of this game playing a TR,CW (PvP toons only), and GWF/SW as PvE, I would say that TR do need a damage reduction only. One/two globaling tanks in PvP should not be possible especially if they have all defensive boons, and PvP/Black ice gear. Leave stealth alone and adjust the damage modifiers for Rogues in PvP.
I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.
As an avid player of this game playing a TR,CW (PvP toons only), and GWF/SW as PvE, I would say that TR do need a damage reduction only. One/two globaling tanks in PvP should not be possible especially if they have all defensive boons, and PvP/Black ice gear. Leave stealth alone and adjust the damage modifiers for Rogues in PvP.
Most likely the best direction to go. TRs need stealth to differentiate them. They can keep it. It does give them one of the most powerful tools in PVP, but if you nerfed their DPS/dazes enough (whichever way you want to nerf their offensive output), it will lead to a better experience for all the other classes.
Most likely the best direction to go. TRs need stealth to differentiate them. They can keep it. It does give them one of the most powerful tools in PVP, but if you nerfed their DPS/dazes enough (whichever way you want to nerf their offensive output), it will lead to a better experience for all the other classes.
But a far worse experience for the vast majority of TRs who PvE.
So, no. Unless it can be done without impacting PvE at all. Maybe by converting piercing damage to regular damage.
Thanks to permastealth and semipermastealth TRs were able to be the most survivable class. They were premades node holders. 1v1 quite hard to just hit. You know it.
It was doable through hard training and experience. Does not mean it was balanced. TR solutions to fight stealth are
Use a good headset and locate me through sounds i make
Train super hard and learn to predict where i am in stealth
Learn to nail a 0.2s chance to catch me. Even so, i can SF back and gwf back to stealth. And your cc can get often nullified by deflection+tenacity. So have luck too, please.
Probably because most TRs aren't packing a metric ton of deflection and tenacity. You need to look at HR for that one.
Permastealth and semi-permastealth have been around for over 3 mods now. The only thing that's changed is extra utility and damage. Even in the feedback thread the devs made, general consensus was that damage was the problem.
Devs ignored it and nerfed stealth instead.
If the steering wheel is broken, stop trying to replace the engine.
Being able to be out of reach 99% of the time unless the enemy is ultra skilled and trained is NOT balanced. I know, easily avoiding most of the damage coming at you feels good. when the enemy must struggle and train hard to just hit you while you have lag on your side and just need to time your powers to link them leaving almost no openings.
If you feel squishy out of stealth you can have damage resistance in exchange.
This sounds like a typical "Scoundrel MI wrecked me this must be how every TR paragon and feat build is designed" complaint.
Every class have vulnerability. Being virtually squishy but 99% of the time out of reach unless the enemy can find you with 100% personal skill, monster training, low lag and good 5.1 sound is not vulnerability. You guys know it and not even you can come up with a reasonable counter/weakness to old stealth/module 5 stealth+dodges.
Um, yea. It's called defenses and not standing still.
CW and HR have plenty of untargeted skills.
DC and GF have plenty of sustain and defense.
GWF is still in a bad spot.
I play "one of them OP rogue builds", Sab WK, and I've gotten my *** kicked by good players of all classes.
The problem is that you actually have to build your toon and know what you're doing. Sorry, bro, can't buy Equips and Rank 7's from AH and faceroll PvP anymore.
Training hundred of hours specifically to find a perma TR, 5.1 sound, prediction, 0.2s timing through latency or you've to l2p, are not real solutions.
It's like saying "hey bro, let's jump off this 30m building. It's doable. I'll land on that huge swimming pool. You can do it too. But you have to jump into that 1m-wide barrel of water. Oh, come on. Can't you do that? How skill-less"
Actually, it's more like "I'm going to jump off this cliff into that lake. You can do it too if you actually invest some effort."
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
1) All piercing damage converted to regular damage.
- This now brings Tenacity back into the picture which was being bypassed. As well as DR/Deflect.
- This impacts Shocking Execution and Shadow of Demise.
2) TRs inside stealth should not get 100% crit chance. This is just Silly. They already get combat advantage which is a nice damage boost. Along with that, they get added benefits to encounters such as a "free P Vorpal" on lashing blade (aka - 50% more crit severity).
3) Bilethorn should not proc "Shadow of Demise" 2x.
4) Exposed Weakness also seems a little too good as well. But before making any adjustments there, Id like to see the above 3 changed 1st.
5) Last moments is also VERY good. 25% damage boost as a T3 feat? Id like to see this cut down to 15%.
Adding back in Tenacity alone would reduce not only the damage but also the crit damage which is out of control on BOTH SE and SoD. Which are the two biggest issues ATM.
The second biggest issue is the crazy 35k+ Crits with Lashingblade. Which is then followed by another 20k SoD.
Thats why Stealth crit needs to be removed as well as Exposed Weakness and Last Moments toned down a bit.
GWFs, grab your toon, gear it to the teeth and get to 10k power at least+ some tankyness please, then train hundred of hours specifically to be able to hit a TR. So you have a chance to win. Or you suck.
I agree with 100% of what you just said, but just want to drive the point home on this spot.
I HAVE a GWF nearly 24k GS. The only improvement I can make is to sub JC rings for tenacity ones otherwise I would say BIS in every slot. nearly 11k power ALL orange/rank 10s yadda yadda.
You cant win vs a TR as a GWF. If your REALLY lucky or the TR gets a massive lag spike and somehow, just somehow your intimidation both HIT and atleast 1 crits then MAYBE.
All the TR needs to do to beat a GWF?
Step 1) Grab a lesser Plague Fire enchant
Step 2) Spec Exec.
Step 3) Lashing Blade in stealth (100% crit and tons of ARP) him for easily 25k+.
Step 4) Run away and watch SoD proc 2x on him for nearly another 25k that ignores ALL DR. Thats 50k damage. Nothing the GWF can do.
Win
Or if thats too hard because you cant land a lashingblade
Step 1) Get full AP go stealth
Step 2) CoS 2-3x for like 5k dmg (all crits in stealth)
Step 3) press "1" - which is Shocking Execution. 100% crit chance pierces all DR.
Win
TRs literally have it all.
Best surivability? TR
Best Burst damage? TR
Most un-mitigated damage? TR
Best node holder? TR
Best node clearer? TR (possibly GWF) but TR can run through mid, SE 1 target for a kill and leave.
Its just stupid.........
0
schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited January 2015
All of those mentioned before can be prevented by just half effective on player .
As i suggested before TR rework .
And TR pve dmg wont be touched.
I too enjoy vs other classes. DPS DC just too stupid, they place dots 1 time and it ticks for 4k for a long time, you hps keep dropping more and more, quite fast, and you must have high regen + pots +healing artifact or you die.
I enjoyed vs TR fights too before mod5. If you got enough skills you could fight back a bit. Stretched, but a gwf could still do smthing. Now with absurd ap gain from artifact gear and DC artifact, add recovery, all the piercing damage and 1 shot se it's just useless.
SWs imho need a bit more defense on some paths but DPS is ok. Depends on how other classe get fixed. It's ok if ranged DPS are squishy but not to the point where they get 1 shotted or 1 rotated unless they can do the same.
Comments
Which, empirically implies this reported permadze is simply a farce.
At least, speaking for MI/Scos, the necessity of ITC and SS remains constant as a TR. Seeing as how even the current Sabs require SS to remain at the utmost competency possible, a build that engages in PvP without BOTH SS and ITC is just no an option. This typically leaves ONE encounter slot to be used, and the given choice is most definately Dazing Strike. In some cases of course Smoke Bomb could be warranted, but in general SB is defensive in nature and lacks consistency. The long recharge time is also a problem, hence SB is considered to be a team-oriented power most commonly used at the mid-node.
OTOH, Dazing Strike actually used to have a higher DPS than LB in prior mods, when LB didn't use to have the extra +50% severity bonus. Dazing Strike recharge is less than half of LB recharge, and yet the overall damage was higher than half of LB. Over a course of time where ONE LB is used, DS would be used twice and deal higher damage than a single shot of LB, the 4s daze effects being another bonus. The only reason why DS was not very popular is of course, the impossibility of hitting it against a moving target. Now that it is much easier to hit with, the natural choice of a MI/Sco would fall down to ITC/DS/SS as the three encounters.
...
A series of pre-planned, long dazes are almost entirely from WK/Scos, since the absence of ITC, ironically allows them a freedom to choose another encounter of their choice, and in this case the best choice being VP, so a seasoned WK/Sco would typically go forward with VP/DS/SS -- in which case a planned course of "long-daze" is possible.
When the initial stealth duration is about to end the TR will throw a shot of VP which will imitiate SC and CS at the same time. Being predominantly ranged a follow up of CoS shots will easily extend the first SC to the theoretical 6 seconds. As the 6s maximum daze duration of SC is about to be reached a 2nd CS daze is likely to happen at some point, and then ofcourse, VP(teleport) will close the distance to melee range to immediately follow up with a DS.
This means as long as SC is available a WK/Sco will be able to extend his dazes into one long series of dazes that lasts upto some 8~10s. After the full limit of the chained dazes are reached the WK/Sco will hit SS and fade back into stealth, which, after 5~6 seconds SC will be readied to be procced again.
Ofcourse, even in this case, the chainded dazes are only meaningful under a 1vs1 context, as the existence of another hostile player in the vicinity (preferably those with ranged CCs) will simply neuter the performance of the WK at the spot. Also, this "long daze" tactics are made only possible because the WK doesn't have ITC in the first place (hence, he chooses another optional encounter to set his SC attack in parallel to the daze from DS). What this implies is pretty clear -- if you can figure out the start of the "long-daze", then you can simply break out of the daze with Oghma's and attempt to CC the WK in reverse, in which case if you succeed then the tables are turned.
Most likely.
Many people simply cannot distinguish between whether they were simply hit by Dazing Strike, or if they were really effected by Scoundrel feats. People also simply exaggerate. They could have plenty of uptime, and yet, if they were dazed at some crucial moments then they would remember it as being "perma-dazed". It is one of the reasons why using anecdotes as a basis to determining what is going on in PvP is simply useless and worthless.
By all means, we really must try to make a habit out of making videos when we want to strongly emphasize a certain point in discussions. A small amount of money spent on basic tools such as Fraps helps. usually all you need is Fraps, a trusty enconder, and Youtube. That's what I use.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
No matter how you try and slice it going from 100%-0% in the matter of 10 seconds or less and have ZERO chance to even defend yourself is PERMA-DAZE.
there are TR;s probably with exec build that can pretty much one shot me, 37-39k lashing on my tank gwf, they can follow up pretty much with CoS, cause is not much i can do or do a SE just for fun and laugh hard of my silly attempt to go unstoppable. It rly doesnt matter if they stun/prone/daze...
Stealth change was a very good move, but they also need a dmg reduction (take the 100% crit chance from stealth, make it a 10-15% crit).
a TR against every class is like a good left hit
nsfw : https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1053172994709062&set=vb.213695655323471&type=2&theater
Thanks to permastealth and semipermastealth TRs were able to be the most survivable class. They were premades node holders. 1v1 quite hard to just hit. You know it.
It was doable through hard training and experience. Does not mean it was balanced. TR solutions to fight stealth are
Use a good headset and locate me through sounds i make
Train super hard and learn to predict where i am in stealth
Learn to nail a 0.2s chance to catch me. Even so, i can SF back and gwf back to stealth. And your cc can get often nullified by deflection+tenacity. So have luck too, please.
In module 5 it got even harder cause of damage boost, dodge roll boost and pretty much permastealth or semiperma still there.
Being able to be out of reach 99% of the time unless the enemy is ultra skilled and trained is NOT balanced. I know, easily avoiding most of the damage coming at you feels good. when the enemy must struggle and train hard to just hit you while you have lag on your side and just need to time your powers to link them leaving almost no openings.
If you feel squishy out of stealth you can have damage resistance in exchange.
Stealth limitations were needed.
Every class have vulnerability. Being virtually squishy but 99% of the time out of reach unless the enemy can find you with 100% personal skill, monster training, low lag and good 5.1 sound is not vulnerability. You guys know it and not even you can come up with a reasonable counter/weakness to old stealth/module 5 stealth+dodges.
Training hundred of hours specifically to find a perma TR, 5.1 sound, prediction, 0.2s timing through latency or you've to l2p, are not real solutions.
It's like saying "hey bro, let's jump off this 30m building. It's doable. I'll land on that huge swimming pool. You can do it too. But you have to jump into that 1m-wide barrel of water. Oh, come on. Can't you do that? How skill-less"
Learn 2 Parkour :cool:
-Kymos
Most likely the best direction to go. TRs need stealth to differentiate them. They can keep it. It does give them one of the most powerful tools in PVP, but if you nerfed their DPS/dazes enough (whichever way you want to nerf their offensive output), it will lead to a better experience for all the other classes.
So, no. Unless it can be done without impacting PvE at all. Maybe by converting piercing damage to regular damage.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Explain why it took 3 mods for a stealth nerf to become necessary then when nothing changed about the mechanic itself.
Probably because most TRs aren't packing a metric ton of deflection and tenacity. You need to look at HR for that one.
Permastealth and semi-permastealth have been around for over 3 mods now. The only thing that's changed is extra utility and damage. Even in the feedback thread the devs made, general consensus was that damage was the problem.
Devs ignored it and nerfed stealth instead.
If the steering wheel is broken, stop trying to replace the engine.
Wrong.
It got harder because of utility and damage.
Stealth mechanic didn't change.
This sounds like a typical "Scoundrel MI wrecked me this must be how every TR paragon and feat build is designed" complaint.
Um, yea. It's called defenses and not standing still.
CW and HR have plenty of untargeted skills.
DC and GF have plenty of sustain and defense.
GWF is still in a bad spot.
I play "one of them OP rogue builds", Sab WK, and I've gotten my *** kicked by good players of all classes.
The problem is that you actually have to build your toon and know what you're doing. Sorry, bro, can't buy Equips and Rank 7's from AH and faceroll PvP anymore.
Actually, it's more like "I'm going to jump off this cliff into that lake. You can do it too if you actually invest some effort."
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
1) All piercing damage converted to regular damage.
- This now brings Tenacity back into the picture which was being bypassed. As well as DR/Deflect.
- This impacts Shocking Execution and Shadow of Demise.
2) TRs inside stealth should not get 100% crit chance. This is just Silly. They already get combat advantage which is a nice damage boost. Along with that, they get added benefits to encounters such as a "free P Vorpal" on lashing blade (aka - 50% more crit severity).
3) Bilethorn should not proc "Shadow of Demise" 2x.
4) Exposed Weakness also seems a little too good as well. But before making any adjustments there, Id like to see the above 3 changed 1st.
5) Last moments is also VERY good. 25% damage boost as a T3 feat? Id like to see this cut down to 15%.
Adding back in Tenacity alone would reduce not only the damage but also the crit damage which is out of control on BOTH SE and SoD. Which are the two biggest issues ATM.
The second biggest issue is the crazy 35k+ Crits with Lashingblade. Which is then followed by another 20k SoD.
Thats why Stealth crit needs to be removed as well as Exposed Weakness and Last Moments toned down a bit.
I agree with 100% of what you just said, but just want to drive the point home on this spot.
I HAVE a GWF nearly 24k GS. The only improvement I can make is to sub JC rings for tenacity ones otherwise I would say BIS in every slot. nearly 11k power ALL orange/rank 10s yadda yadda.
You cant win vs a TR as a GWF. If your REALLY lucky or the TR gets a massive lag spike and somehow, just somehow your intimidation both HIT and atleast 1 crits then MAYBE.
All the TR needs to do to beat a GWF?
Step 1) Grab a lesser Plague Fire enchant
Step 2) Spec Exec.
Step 3) Lashing Blade in stealth (100% crit and tons of ARP) him for easily 25k+.
Step 4) Run away and watch SoD proc 2x on him for nearly another 25k that ignores ALL DR. Thats 50k damage. Nothing the GWF can do.
Win
Or if thats too hard because you cant land a lashingblade
Step 1) Get full AP go stealth
Step 2) CoS 2-3x for like 5k dmg (all crits in stealth)
Step 3) press "1" - which is Shocking Execution. 100% crit chance pierces all DR.
Win
TRs literally have it all.
Best surivability? TR
Best Burst damage? TR
Most un-mitigated damage? TR
Best node holder? TR
Best node clearer? TR (possibly GWF) but TR can run through mid, SE 1 target for a kill and leave.
Its just stupid.........
As i suggested before TR rework .
And TR pve dmg wont be touched.
What was the name of that SW anyway? :P
WTB Class Reroll please
Lazarus Halfsoul. His main's actually a CW but he's amazing at SW as well.
I enjoyed vs TR fights too before mod5. If you got enough skills you could fight back a bit. Stretched, but a gwf could still do smthing. Now with absurd ap gain from artifact gear and DC artifact, add recovery, all the piercing damage and 1 shot se it's just useless.
SWs imho need a bit more defense on some paths but DPS is ok. Depends on how other classe get fixed. It's ok if ranged DPS are squishy but not to the point where they get 1 shotted or 1 rotated unless they can do the same.