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Legendary Tier Dungeons?
zeusom
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 810 Arc User
Should a Legendary dungeon tier be added for existing Neverwinter dungeons?
Neverwinter has a very nice set of dungeons that come in normal and epic tier, but once players get up in gear score the hardest epic dungeon PvE content becomes is easy. Most epic dungeons have even been conquered solo. And since BoE Tier 2 gear dropping in Tiamat like cheap candy from Pinata, many players have stopped running epic dungeon content (not enough incentive).
Adding a Legendary tier would mean higher level and harder hitting enemies and runs that were difficult but completable for very well geared groups of players. Players are becoming more powerful with each mod, and a legendary tier would fill a gap in both level appropriate content and rewards. Let's poll it. Legendary dungeon tier from Cloak tower through Lair of Lostmauth, Yes or No?
PS. Various Legendary loot ideas that have been tossed about:
Ancient version gear BoE
Rank 6, rare 7 and 8 Enchants
Greater Marks of Potency
Lesser/Normal Weapon and Armor enchants
Ultrarare Lockbox/Zen item drop
Unbound RP stones (too hard for bots to farm)
Rare Coalescent ward
Preservation wards
Neverwinter has a very nice set of dungeons that come in normal and epic tier, but once players get up in gear score the hardest epic dungeon PvE content becomes is easy. Most epic dungeons have even been conquered solo. And since BoE Tier 2 gear dropping in Tiamat like cheap candy from Pinata, many players have stopped running epic dungeon content (not enough incentive).
Adding a Legendary tier would mean higher level and harder hitting enemies and runs that were difficult but completable for very well geared groups of players. Players are becoming more powerful with each mod, and a legendary tier would fill a gap in both level appropriate content and rewards. Let's poll it. Legendary dungeon tier from Cloak tower through Lair of Lostmauth, Yes or No?
PS. Various Legendary loot ideas that have been tossed about:
Ancient version gear BoE
Rank 6, rare 7 and 8 Enchants
Greater Marks of Potency
Lesser/Normal Weapon and Armor enchants
Ultrarare Lockbox/Zen item drop
Unbound RP stones (too hard for bots to farm)
Rare Coalescent ward
Preservation wards
Post edited by zeusom on
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Comments
Insultingly easy content with RNG gated rewards is NOT a solution.
Legendary Temple of the Spider. Agro just 2 blademasters, they rush you, you die. It's a lazy way to amplify difficulty. Not to mention it'll only make a class like the GWF even more useless.
Legendary ought to provide meaningful content and rewards for 16k to 20k groups that have exhausted current PvE content, not for all legendary maxed only groups that have no room for advancement (but maybe it's ok if a few Legendary like CN/VT/LoL were like that).
Agree it would completely defeat the purpose of having Legendary tier.
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
Something else needs to happen instead. Cryptic needs to develop fresh and new content to withstand all this power creep they are putting in the game. Such as extending the level cap. Everything we have now will just get thrown out the window and they have a fresh start at level 70 or whatever cap it will be. Milling about at level 60 with these legendary dungeons will just even further more the elitism in the game.
That's the right way.
If the boss cannot kill you with one hit, having a tank is optional. The only thing that shouldn't kill the players with one hit is the mechanic of the fight, but these must deal enough damage to make a healer needed.
Not when it's impossible to dodge for certain classes.
Any alternative suggestions? One might hope for something more dynamic or thought-based than simply increasing enemy HP and damage stats for Legendary, but enemy stat boosting alone would certainly add challenge and force party cooperation. For example, with SW I could not survive or dodge a Garakas one-shot crit unless there is party buff such as GF with knight's valor or DC astral shield. Another option might be to incorporate a time limit for legendary dungeon completion.
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
Another, albeit potentially difficult, thing that would help would be improved AI. Right now, all monsters in an encounter stay and fight to the death. However, it's not unusual in PnP modules to see something like, "if the fight goes badly, soandso will attempt to flee to room xx" or "if the fight goes badly, soandso will attempt to fetch reinforcements from room xx". Maybe it doesn't always happen or maybe there are several possible actions that enemies might take, chosen either at random or based on conditions. That would force players to watch and react quickly, like we have to do in the Arcane Reservoir (although the AI behavior there is unfortunately predictable).
When all else fails, in a PnP campaign the DM always has the option of random encounters. I think every dungeon should feature those. They are way too predictable IMO (and consequently way too farmable). Dungeons should be inherently dangerous, even for seasoned adventurers. As an example, imagine you're in Cragmire Crypts and, as you're walking down the corridor, a weakened wall collapses and out comes a purple worm (or a pair of gelatinous cubes, or xorns, or umber hulks, or ropers, etc.). Sometimes it happens in one place, sometimes in another, sometimes not at all. These things happen in real PnP dungeons.
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Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
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My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
Lots of nice thought and ideas. RNG or simple AI elements incorporated into enemy behavior also makes any possibility of dungeon botting impossible even with sophisticated macros (not that its ever been much an issue).
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
Harder modes should hit harder I think, but it also shouldn't be JUST that. It shouldn't just be MORE THINGS and LOOK OUT THEY HIT HARDER NOW. There should be different mechanics to the fight that require different and more challenging strategies to complete them, even just any sort of mechanics at all beyond "look out for the adds". So I think you're half right there. They just made everything hit a lot harder instead of making it more interesting which definitely seems lazy to me too. I think you can kind of see that in almost every boss fight in this game. The difficulty doesn't usually come from the boss or the mechanics of the fight most of the time. It's just ADDS that will HIT HARD all day every day on every fight.
I voted yes anyway because there really are some dungeons that have nice designs and there are some fights with some interesting mechanics and I really want to see more of that sort of thing and have some good reasons to visit them again beyond just breaking the monotony of endless daily campaign quests. I just wish it would mean more than just "more adds and now they hit harder."
So the team must do the dungeon naked (no perfects, no rank 10s, etc). Only skill matters. New players are in the same spot (gear wise) as old ones. Old players have the experience with the class, the build, the boons. Not more.
Make the dungeon very hard. Give good rewards, to all, in all the runs.
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It seems to be just a crutch - this way they don't have to do anything, just constantly increasing the mobs hitting power / resistance / HP pool while also increasing the gear power (and by doing this forcing us to pay and play more) - do you really want to go down this road?
Agreed. I'm a little dubious about ulterior motives in these type of requests. How many are more interested in the potential to get 'rich' by farming the dungeons than they are to play it for fun and personal character progression.
I would love to see a more realistic enemy AI but that can be tough to code. Bosses that attempt to flee or try to get to a more favourable defensive position would be cool but might be too much work for the devs.
Lol yeah making all the equipment the players used countless hours and ad on worthless for the new content, seems like a real good idea!
Yay! I like piñata candy gear drops!
And I like the idea of legendary dungeons, too - give the mobs several million HP each and the bosses trillions or more, along with continuously damaging AoE effects all over the place!
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
The main thing that I would want to see would be you have to kill at least 90% of the enemies in order to fight the final boss. No major skipping. And things should be a bit harder, but not stupidly harder. For example, the enemies in the t2 dungeons should feel about as tough as the enemies in eshores. Not harder than eshores.
This shouldn't be solely for legendary geared players. It should be for anyone who finds the t2 content to be very easy at this point. And the drops and chest rewards should be meaningful to what people want right now. For example, the chance at a blue or possibly purple version of an artifact piece of gear. OR an upgraded version of the t2 equipment. OR higher level refining stones.
It would be nice to get that feeling of trying to actually work together as a team to beat the fun content that we have now. As it stands, most dungeons with even reasonably geared players don't need healers or a tank.
You should take a few lessons on power-creep.
The Holy Trinity design is in place for a reason - DPS aren't designed to take hits, Healers aren't designed to kill, Tanks aren't designed to heal. Everyone covers the *** of the others.
When a part of that holy trinity is broken, as we can empirically see in NW right now, there's obvious problems in place. Like how a single DPS can solo the boss with lifesteal and ridiculous stats alone. Clerics are able to tank adds for hours without breaking a sweat. And Tanks are able to 3-shot entire packs of mobs.
There's something wrong but it's not convenient to fix it, so why bother, right?
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
Dont get me wrong, is just an idea, and only for 1 dungeon. I would be one of the most penalyzed players, I have a maxed character. It can be a dungeon with a penalty to every stat or to dmg and damage reduction. The idea is to return to the group and role dependency to have success, and to balance a bit the big hole between old and new players.
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The current hardest dungeons/skirmishes are just filled with things that one shot basically everyone except GF's when blocking. So... if it's just going to be more of that i'll pass.
I would support the idea of having a pass at the older content and making harder versions of them depending how it was done. I'd like more tactical battles but with out the one shots.
But as a general rule I think all content should be able to be completed by F2P players I don't support the idea of making content that's an insurmountable pay-gate that requires absolute BIS Rank 10 Legendary ect. only.
Completely agree. Simply making harder hitting adds than eSoT or Tiamat would result in parties being one-shot constantly through whole dungeon which would be uncreative/boring and miserable. Not appropriate since our total HP and overall tank ability has not creeped so much as power/damage. But enemy HP could increase some and that is appropriate.
Would be preferable to increase the number of adds rather than the damage they do.
Nice idea on a min % Clear requirement for a Legendary implementation.
Exactly. A content and reward tier for players completely dominating epic T2 content but still far from maxed is missing. Running epic T1/T2 dungeons with gear 10k-15k was terrific fun because of (1) challenging content and (2) meaningful reward. A higher tier version would restore this.
Very interesting idea by Darthpotat. Having something in terms of content where all gear differences are equalized so that only skill matters would be terrific (perhaps a special gear-equalized pvp mode even). The only thing is that Legendary should be something accessible to players when they progress to be able to run it where it then it fills a specific gap.
There is no reason adding a higher dungeon tier in would have to be to "instead of" new future content.
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
Module 5 and 6 has a big impact in any existing content that was in this game. As T1 and T2 gear are so dirt cheap now, gearing up a new character is super easy without running thru any dungeons. New Drow PvP sets will be release soon, which have overload slots, well say bye bye to IWD too. SoT and LoL doesn't give much reward, if they're after good accessories, just get something cheap until they have Jewelcrafting to lvl 20.
So what's left for us to do right now? Tiamat... and any 11k GS person can enter hoping they'll be carried by other people that are geared. The only thing challenging for geared players is to try and queue into the instance avoiding low GS freeloaders that can ruin their chance of a success.
Something needs to be done to keep players interested in this game, and staying after they have reached a certain level. It has always been a thing that Devs don't seem to care about as much. They just hope that there are enough new players that will come to this game and spend enough money to support them. But they can certainly gain more support from existing players by listening to them, and give them something they've asked for a very long time.
Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Should they implement legendary dungeons, few will be happy with them. The ones crying the loudest for them will not be happy with what Cryptic will deliver. Advanced tactics and intense strategies will never happen, it is just not something Cryptic has ever done well, or had much experience with. It will simply be larger health pools, more damage, more adds, this is not something the elite will ever be happy with. And the casuals will be unhappy at content they cant access. Simply, remember all the cries for raids, and take a long hard look at what was delivered if you have any doubts about this.
The other problem is loot. I firmly believe that most of the screams for harder content actually translate as more loot for the elite. Special advanced elite gear drops will never happen. You will never see special versions of T1 or T2 gear dropping in these places. At best, you will see improved drop rates for existing gear. With perhaps a chance to drop higher ranked refining mats or enchantments. While id personally be happy with this. I suspect, most would feel the effort of the harder content would not be worth the rewards. So once again, its a lose for Cryptic.
This is not a slam on Cryptic, I love their games and have supported the company for many years. But I also know what things they are good at, and not so good at. Addictive combat mechanics and action game play is one of the things they excel at. Hard, difficult, strategic, raid-type, progression content, they are less good at. And anyone who is willing to honestly look at Cryptics history and track-record should be able to see this clearly.
Dev's may care. A player at 16k+ has invested time/effort and often some money to get that far, and they would like to stay and advance further. But now game has dynamic (particularly with bound RP and worthless T2) where many are bored and frustrated and will begin to trickle away.
Having the more advanced player population in a situation with lots of growing room but few tier content/rewards for them loses morale and customers. I spend a little on game each month even if not necessary because game needs and deserves support. Higher dungeon tier is good for business bottom line.
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack