Even if dmg of shard will return....i really can't imagine how my control wizard could survive these mass of damage of another classes in pvp without shield on TAB? We are paper even with shield, and without shield on tab...? You know...pvp in module 3 was just long, there were no glyphs, most of players have got enchants rank 7, tenacity was useful now this statistics is useless, players have got 10-13k power +2k arm pen and DMG is terribly big, i am not sure will you be able to turn it on before someone eats you in 2 seconds.
PS. i am glad that others CW notice our useless new "super" bonus from 4/4 pvp set ;f
General Response: It seems like a lot of people who are complaining about what I believe should happen to the GWF class haven't even read the full post. I'm happy with the damage it can do, but I want it to be done in a different way that dosent involve the GWF to sacrifice his whole build of HP and defensive stats just to stack power. In addition, If you pay close attention to the proposed Instigator changes, I'm basically setting the GWF to be the TR clearing machine. Furthermore, I didn't suggest any DR changes because if you read the post, I suggested Sprint changes and determination gain changes that would make the gwf stronger as a whole
Please read my posts in their entirety before arriving at a response to them. whenever I try to balance a class I make sure to justify it all around.
In response to my TR bias: I stated that I'm pretty biased towards my own class, but I see it like this: If your going to ask TR's to back cap, give them a way to kill things or stop asking us to die. It's selfish to assume we as a class exist to hold the back cap and run circles all day, and I refuse to give into that.
In response to my K/D: take a look at the majority of end game BiS TR k/d. The average is 6-7. I am an extreme condition, which is mostly attributed to my OCD for never dying. you can ask around about that. to further on that point, every module I've maintained at least a positive 20 K/D. What you see now is what happens when you actually make my class useful
In response to empowered shield: I'm completely pro empowered shiled! I think it's a brilliant mechanic. I simply just believe it needs to be changed in color to give the greater population a visual tell... It dosent necessarily affect me because I just count how many times the DC used a divine power, but I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate it.
General Response to all: Seriously, read at least the WHOLE class breakdown before you respond to it, there is a reason for everything.
m8
First of all i should start by sayin i was the first that found about intimidation build while i was testin on PTR before mod4, and i've known about the build before you probably heard it.
the reason why i am tellin this is that there are already other builds that are better than sentinel, in matter of fact i wouldn't said it if i hadn't discovered another build.
and what i said wont ruin the build.
right now it deals huge burst at 14-16 seconds
what i want is
to deal lower burst with lower cooldowns
that means you can spam cagi/daring shout. but you need to visualize, if you can't dont talk and defend someth that is unreasonable because you are afraid of testing other things out.
let me give you a piece of advice
if yo uever come at a top level of doing pvp
you will realise that the only enchants you need are RADIANTS
because after the release of the DROW SET
you will have enough stats that will hit the hard cap
from BOONS/tier 3 sets.
"BIS with DROW set/ full boons/ legendary off/belt/neck/weapon and 2xslot rings, will give the GWF sentinel power creep on all his defensive stats.
so the problem is that with the intimidation that is right now we are obliged to stack power."
so the only enchants you will add are radiants
on both offense and defense slots.
that means you will deal huge damage on each paragon. but you probably didnt test it out.
so you are confined on the idea "omg the intimidation build is only the only way"
and on other side i one shot BIS players with a build that isn't focused on intimdation.
nice, right?
and it's not about givin fancy animations
but giving better ones
cause i dont know have you noticed, but cagi/daring shout tends to miss and not deal damage sometimes, have you wondered why ? i doubt.
My GWF is not BIS, but well geared (GWF, DC, vanguard artefact, con belt and SS weapon, all legendary, all R9, allmost all radiants, BI, 47k HP). I played destroyer for most of the time. After I tested the intimidation build on preview, I switched. The problem of the destroyer build atm is (at last for me), that you are most likely dead, before you can reach your stacks and even when you could deal decent dmg, your surviveability is just not there, at last against players with decent gear. You are right, wheen you say, that it is all radiant with full BIS sets, but this is due to all the artefact gear valid for almost all classes (at last for offensive slots).
IF they would change intim. to a dmg feature depending on weapon dmg, they would most likely give it HAMSTER% weapon dmg, period. Due to my personal expirience with class adjustments I am very sceptic about adjustments done by cryptic.
BTW. I could only think about a high power/ destroyer/ slam/ AP gain build as viable, but I did not test instigator, bc it seemed very lackluster to me.
balancing should start on the top
cause right now it starts from the bottom and as you equip your character the class balanced starting to be unbalanced.
so we need to do the opposide
startin the balance from the TOP LEVEL in a downwards way, instead of upwards, do you understand?
so that means at a gs of 20kish a gwf and a tr should be equal and downwards of that GS both classes should keep a balance against eachother.
so that is the logic that this game should be starting to do balancing.
in each game especially shooters/mobas they pic the best players to test the game out.
thats how it should be done here.
reason that if you establish a max lvl of a certain skill you will know his capabilities.
rather then going blindly upwards and everythin be unbalanced
better be bring balance downwards.
probably a lil hard to understand.
Amen to that, this is why I only talk about max potential
My GWF is not BIS, but well geared (GWF, DC, vanguard artefact, con belt and SS weapon, all legendary, all R9, allmost all radiants, BI, 47k HP). I played destroyer for most of the time. After I tested the intimidation build on preview, I switched. The problem of the destroyer build atm is (at last for me), that you are most likely dead, before you can reach your stacks and even when you could deal decent dmg, your surviveability is just not there, at last against players with decent gear. You are right, wheen you say, that it is all radiant with full BIS sets, but this is due to all the artefact gear valid for almost all classes (at last for offensive slots).
IF they would change intim. to a dmg feature depending on weapon dmg, they would most likely give it HAMSTER% weapon dmg, period. Due to my personal expirience with class adjustments I am very sceptic about adjustments done by cryptic.
BTW. I could only think about a high power/ destroyer/ slam/ AP gain build as viable, but I did not test instigator, bc it seemed very lackluster to me.
thats what i said, destroyer problem is buildin up the 20 stacks. in matter of DPS and overalll DPS it does better than any paragon.
for a striker role, surviability shouldn't even be as big as a defender role.
a full destroyer full stacked + 8-9k power can one shot probably every class, dont underestimate POWER , cuz power isn't only for intimidation gwfs.
if they would change the intim into HAMSTER% weapon damage, that means the base damage will remain at one level, and not keep growin, in addition i find it rather usefull of using faster your encounters(lowering the cooldowns by 2-4 sec) , even if that means you will do less damage from 1 hit,
its not simply changin the animation
but to make them more responsive
CAGI gives a 20% bonus damage for 3 sec
DAring Shout Take DR from enemies.
thess are encounters that weren't reworked and never used from day 1. now we are in mod5 and we have a new way of playin the gwf.
and intimidation build needs a rework imo. doing small tweaks.
either way
there is probably one way of makin this game attain balance
that means devs should pick players ingame as their testers.
and this balance should start from TOP and finishied at the BOTTOM
it should start with TIER 3 players and finishied with the bottom.
that means every class will hit a line.
and they should revise each class roles.
and by then we can have gametypes.
just gather 10-15 players ingame that will play BIS 1vs1 eachother and 5vs5 in a team, they will give proper feedback. they will show in real time to devs that some feats multiprocc etc.
and when will they release someth it will be someth enjoyable and competitive.
but this means that the dev who is workin at doing class balance should dedicate some of his time.
this will help the community to interact with the devs.
this will stop the chain of hatred of many things.
balancing should start on the top
cause right now it starts from the bottom and as you equip your character the class balanced starting to be unbalanced.
so we need to do the opposide
startin the balance from the TOP LEVEL in a downwards way, instead of upwards, do you understand?
so that means at a gs of 20kish a gwf and a tr should be equal and downwards of that GS both classes should keep a balance against eachother.
so that is the logic that this game should be starting to do balancing.
in each game especially shooters/mobas they pic the best players to test the game out.
thats how it should be done here.
reason that if you establish a max lvl of a certain skill you will know his capabilities.
rather then going blindly upwards and everythin be unbalanced
better be bring balance downwards.
probably a lil hard to understand.
I'm sorry, I failed to be a little bit more specific. It's not that I generally disagree about the top-to-bottom approach, but the discrepancy in # of BiS chars compared to the # of casual chars is so high that it doesn't really matter whether the class balance at the very top is broken, because it affects like 50 people (exaggerated, but you get the idea). Seriously, how many BiS guild premades do even exist? 20+? I don't think so.
So for this game it actually makes more sense to balance PVP around 13k GS than 20k+. If you're saying that with the proposed changes also the lower tier PVP would be better, I agree. But the amount of time the devs need to put into achieving that is just too high compared to the players that would really benefit. Currently the TR is too OP in lower level PVP, so it will be nerfed. This is what happened throughout and I can't see any change in approach in Mod 5.
It's not that I'm content with it, but you better start living with it. This is a casual PVE game.
either way
there is probably one way of makin this game attain balance
that means devs should pick players ingame as their testers.
You need trained testers to do those things, people that get paid for their work! It is not as easy as you may think, there are so many scenarios to follow that you just cant test with some kids and call it a day, but that is offtopic.
You need trained testers to do those things, people that get paid for their work! It is not as easy as you may think, there are so many scenarios to follow that you just cant test with some kids and call it a day, but that is offtopic.
i am not talkin that the testers should make the changes, not at all.
it's like this:
the dev changes someth or implement someth, and the tester will bring feedback, either if it's broken or workin properly or if it affects the gameplay in a bad way etc.
but this thing should be started at BIS gear .
i still think that devs dont know that a GWF with intimidation can get up to 14k power in pvp (probably even more)
especially for the reason they didnt test it out on a BIS character.
and in matter of testing?
we talk about neverwinter here, and we talk about players that plays this game on a upper level than others. i think they are trained enough. i might not be an american/canadian to speak fluent english, but there are some top players that can do that. and probably can help doing someth.
Aside from my personal biases on which direction I believe each class should take, I think it's more prudent that the demands for New maps , new game type, and a working skill based Que system should be the first priorities.
If these things are introduced and marketed, the game will grow exponentially.
balancing should start on the top
cause right now it starts from the bottom and as you equip your character the class balanced starting to be unbalanced.
so we need to do the opposide
startin the balance from the TOP LEVEL in a downwards way, instead of upwards, do you understand?
so that means at a gs of 20kish a gwf and a tr should be equal and downwards of that GS both classes should keep a balance against eachother.
so that is the logic that this game should be starting to do balancing.
in each game especially shooters/mobas they pic the best players to test the game out.
thats how it should be done here.
reason that if you establish a max lvl of a certain skill you will know his capabilities.
rather then going blindly upwards and everythin be unbalanced
better be bring balance downwards.
probably a lil hard to understand.
This is EXACTLY right. A perfect example is a class like the HR.
At lower levels of damage/deflect/lifesteal everything SEEMS balanced. The HR gets hit hard and dies, the lifesteal isnt at meaningful levels to really make a difference and damage is good.
Increase damage a few %, deflect a few % and lifesteal a few % and now the HR dishes out very good damage and has insane self-healing and survivability. (Note: I am NOT saying this is how it is today, this is just an example).
Or take the GWF Indimidation builds. at the 50% of power levels, on an average GS player, it was a DECENT feat. Get a GWF with 10-12k+ Power though and it was game BREAKING.
In both of these examples, with the Top -> Bottom Balancing this is not only addressed but creates BALANCE throughout ALL tiers of the game.
With Bottom -> Top balancing, something at the bottom may seem balanced and maybe even only slightly OP, but at TOP end levels it can be game BREAKING.
In balancing dungeons/PVP/Classes ANYTHING it should start with the TOP players and work its way down from there. This may be why PVE is such a joke, because the DEVs have PROVEN to not be as skilled in this game as a majority of players. So they test a fight like "Tamiat" say "ok this is pretty hard" and a hardcore player base comes in rolls their face on the keyboard to win....
They need to work with top tier players in these areas to help determine balance and this will GREATLY positively impact the game for ALL.
balancing should start on the top
cause right now it starts from the bottom and as you equip your character the class balanced starting to be unbalanced.
so we need to do the opposide
startin the balance from the TOP LEVEL in a downwards way, instead of upwards, do you understand?
so that means at a gs of 20kish a gwf and a tr should be equal and downwards of that GS both classes should keep a balance against eachother.
so that is the logic that this game should be starting to do balancing.
in each game especially shooters/mobas they pic the best players to test the game out.
thats how it should be done here.
reason that if you establish a max lvl of a certain skill you will know his capabilities.
rather then going blindly upwards and everythin be unbalanced
better be bring balance downwards.
probably a lil hard to understand.
Agreed. Like OP stated, this thread is not for people who want to talk about pug matches. Too much gear and skill variables are causing misconceptions for pugs. Balance indeed starts at the top and we can only see true class balance/imbalance when we analyze matches between fully geared players versus other fully geared and skilled players.
A 20k GS SW can easily kill a 9k GS TR in a pug match. Does that mean SW is overpowered? No. It just means you are in a pug match with lots of greater variables affecting your conception.
The sad part is, perception is 90% of reality, and without a proper Que system , the community is looking through blacked out glasses because they aren't facing a balanced opponent due to the variable of gear. The day a proper Que system comes out, forum q.q will be cut in half, and real balance can finally start to occur
The sad part is, perception is 90% of reality, and without a proper Que system , the community is looking through blacked out glasses because they aren't facing a balanced opponent due to the variable of gear. The day a proper Que system comes out, forum q.q will be cut in half, and real balance can finally start to occur
This is very true, and maybe partly why lower tier PVPers are not able to even adequately perceive what is or isnt OP.
You could have a 10k GS low skilled player using an "OP" feat/item/feature/ability against a 15k GS player and the 10k GS player wouldnt even know its OP. It will just feel like an "even match" between the two.
Not that GS means everything at all, but it does play SOME indication as to where a player stands.
Its only at the top tier, where you KNOW players are on an even footing that you are REALLY able to adequately assess what is and is not balanced.
Not only that but as mentioned before, at lower tiers things that scale are less apparent. An easy example of this is lifesteal. Lifesteal really doesnt become GREAT until you invest pretty heavily into it. A 15k GS player may only have 400 points in lifesteal, while a 20k GS player can have 1200 without giving up any other real damage stats.
That massive difference in lifesteal, makes a TON of difference in top tier PVP, where as the lower tier player would have ZERO indication of its value as he is not able to full take advantage of the stat.
To sum it up simply , we didn't need a Que system when max vs average gear only had a 2kgearscore gap, now however , the gap between average and max is about 6 to 8k depending on class, and this will only progressively get larger as the game progresses
The sad part is, perception is 90% of reality, and without a proper Que system , the community is looking through blacked out glasses because they aren't facing a balanced opponent due to the variable of gear. The day a proper Que system comes out, forum q.q will be cut in half, and real balance can finally start to occur
thats why a lobby system will do greatly for us.
and leave the normal que for solo/duo que.
and lobby for premades.
that means you can do a mix of people fightin another mix of people.
but the lobby should be with rooms.
like a 5man party elader sends a challenge to the other 5man party leader.
this thing will make our community to grow to another level.
this way we can have tournaments/whitenights wars etc.
A Gs lobby for solo ques would be a great start,however it could be easily circumvented by unequipping gear, for thus reason prestige system has to be established at some point
No. No it won't. It'll improve things for the minuscule number of players in 'elite' PvP, and everyone else can go hang.
you need to open your eyes sir, this game has been balanced under the principle of mechanics with no gear since the beginning; obviously this is not working and they need to try the logical alternative
Just figured there also was a the State of Module 4 PVP thread by the OP, browsed through and evaluated the proposals vs actual changes. This one has no hope.
I'm for The TR damage boost, as is it shows the damage from catching a target off guard. The extra rolls are great as well, more time to get away from others.
My gripe is with the perma/near-perma stealth that TRs are in. They are only visible for a split second, not long enough to fire any at-will, encounter, or daily at them. It's just cheese. I don't have a suggestion for it as I haven't played my TR in ages. It's just been sitting there since mod1.
I may dust it off and respec it seeing its the new "flavor of the mod Class."
Does taking damage still take away from the stealth meter?
Do dodges make TRs immune for that moment?
I show player support, by only playing Neverwinter as F2P
I want to bring my personal little stone to this mountain.
I'm not an "high" end player, but I'm quite experienced since everyday I do lot of pvp fair 1vs1 in IWD with my 17k gs CW. (and I also have all classes but SW to level 60)
GWF: after CAGI nerf I think it's the most balanced class (unfortunately, in a non balanced system they suffer a lot of their average position).
GF: in high end they are VERY tanky and with good deflection+AoS+Fairy thistle+glyph they could do a large amount of dmg just holding their shield. I think they don't need any dmg buff, maybe some more value in no protector tree, but it's risky, since they could easly reach 60k hp, with a shield that make them immune to a lot of thing for a VERY LONG time...adding dmg could make a disaster begin.
DC: this is maybe one of the most funny class now, since you basically could have a healer three that doesn't do any real dmg (just refine AS and the capstone, cause it proc too strong and too often) or a dps tree and now, when you have a DC in your party, you know it will not be a bad luck.
CW: I think the main problem is about different feats from different tree: now oppressor, with the deflection applied to CC and CC breaker (everyone got one... everyone but poor SW), it's almost useless.
Thaum it's still not bad but renegade now is the best.
Maybe they could make something different like a CC tree, a dps tree and a tank tree. For example, adding some shield buff feat (maybe regen or something like) for nerfed-assailing-Thaum and decreasing the chaotic grown, speccing renegade for dps and thaum for tank build.
Hr: now they are quite good, in a fight with even GS I can both defeat them or die, even if I agree they need to be more fitted for archery.
SW: now they are the weakest, but I don't know too much this class, so I prefer to leave it to someone else.
TR: I think it's completely OP: I fought TR with 3k gs less then me and sometime I was completely unable to just hurt them.
They just go stealth and cast DS and watch me die, running up and down, casting stealing time and icy terrain and oppressive force unsuccessfully.
...Or they can run for a scoundriel tree, with concussive strike they can daze you for almost 6 sec: in 6 sec a good rogue could kill you at least twice.
So I don't know why they cryed in mod4 just because they must run INVISIBLE always, sometime holding a node against 3 players: they choose that way, and they were enough annoying without the ability of killing you with one at-will as now.
So my suggestion is to leave them the choice between at least two build: a perma stealth one (quite similar to mod4) or a more combat one, based on deflection (in my opinion HR steal this build to TR) and with high damage which leave, in the meanwhile, the risk that other class could catch you.
SUGGESTION:
At the end you will notify a common thing in all my test: each class needs really different tree, so they could take a way and take a role.
The 5vs5 pvp is a team play, but if in each module we had a class that pop up, unbalancing all, with great defense, great LS, great DPS and great CC at the same time we'll always run for a balance we'll never find.
Otherwise, this could be a marketing tathic, since dev unbalance think, pushing pvp players to buy thing in order to fill the gap, but I'm confident the Dev group well know that a well balanced game has a longer life and will give you more money in time.
Speaking on behalf of the PvP community, the same things we want are constantly being
requested over and over again every module. Some of these requests come from the time of
beta, and will also improve the replay value of this game. These requests are as follows:
NEW PVP MAPS - from the beginning of the game we, the pvp community have been constantly begging for new PvP maps. It has been over a year now; please, supply us with some new scenery
NEW PVP GAME TYPES - This should follow shortly after new maps. I have a very quick and easy suggestion with balancing built in. Capture the Flag; Recycle and open world PvP map if you need to, turn the middle node into flag stand, turn outside caps into capture points, add spawns, and then add a buff to the flag carrier that does as follows: Changes first at-will to flag bash which does decent damage, turn off the use of all encounters, Special powers, and shifts, add waypoint over flag carriers head, prevent dropping once flag is picked up untill capture or death, and then fill in the blanks with amount of players needed per team. Clear, cut, easy, simple and fun.
Real Prestige / Gearscore Bracket System - One of the biggest issue for old players and new players alike is the fundamental lack of smart paring to fight equal opponents. When the game first came out, the gear score gap between max gear and average gear was 1-2k GS (Unless they had tenebrous) Now the gear gap is sometimes as high as 13K. Because of this huge gear gap, and lack of proper bracket system, new players are quitting before they even start because they get roflstomped by a seasoned veteran; in turn, the seasoned veteran quits, because the PvP community is essentially dying with no new rise in talent or faces. Even if it takes to much time to program a prestige system, please create GS based domination ques for starters.
Fix the Leaderboard, same team kicking, and unfair leavers penalties - Currently it’s common knowledge in the PvP community that the leaderboards algorithm needs adjustment. It’s 100% possible to lose ranks from winning a match; this should never be possible. At the very least, winning a match should result in 0 progression, up or down.
There is currently a kicking war occurring in the PvP community at the moment resulting in further discrepancies in the scoreboard due to leavers penalties and fraudulent ranks.This
bug needs to be addressed and fixed so that it is no longer possible.
Leavers penalties should not occur for afk players in 5 minutes, nor should a team have to
wait for 2 people to leave in order to leave penalty free. Once one player is gone from the
party, all should be allowed to leave.
Conclusion: If all the above changes were implemented or even considered, this games community with see a significant and positive growth in both skill level and player population. I truly hope this post does not fall on deaf ears. If anyone has any questions or concerns feel free to contact me in game or on the forum. If I missed anything, feel free to add it as a comment to this post and please keep all feedback constructive. We all want change, working together to get it is the quickest way to achieve it.
Please, Perfect World + Cryptic, spend a little money on another developer or two to work on improving the PvP situation. Hard core PvPers will spend a lot of their time and money to be the best if you provide them a game worthy of it. Old players will flock back and new players will want to play. There's a great core game here, with a few additions and tweaks it could be great game top to bottom. Your player base will grow by leaps and bounds as will your bottom line.
General Response: It seems like a lot of people who are complaining about what I believe should happen to the GWF class haven't even read the full post. I'm happy with the damage it can do, but I want it to be done in a different way that dosent involve the GWF to sacrifice his whole build of HP and defensive stats just to stack power. In addition, If you pay close attention to the proposed Instigator changes, I'm basically setting the GWF to be the TR clearing machine. Furthermore, I didn't suggest any DR changes because if you read the post, I suggested Sprint changes and determination gain changes that would make the gwf stronger as a whole
Please read my posts in their entirety before arriving at a response to them. whenever I try to balance a class I make sure to justify it all around.
In response to my TR bias: I stated that I'm pretty biased towards my own class, but I see it like this: If your going to ask TR's to back cap, give them a way to kill things or stop asking us to die. It's selfish to assume we as a class exist to hold the back cap and run circles all day, and I refuse to give into that.
In response to my K/D: take a look at the majority of end game BiS TR k/d. The average is 6-7. I am an extreme condition, which is mostly attributed to my OCD for never dying. you can ask around about that. to further on that point, every module I've maintained at least a positive 20 K/D. What you see now is what happens when you actually make my class useful
In response to empowered shield: I'm completely pro empowered shiled! I think it's a brilliant mechanic. I simply just believe it needs to be changed in color to give the greater population a visual tell... It dosent necessarily affect me because I just count how many times the DC used a divine power, but I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate it.
General Response to all: Seriously, read at least the WHOLE class breakdown before you respond to it, there is a reason for everything.
Sprint being more responsive been asked since ages. But again: sprint is currently needed to close gaps/ chase the enemy AND defend. Ad it falls short in terms of defensive capabilities, would not compensate a 2,5% healing on unstoppable just by being "more responsive". Not like recovery healing is that much. It's around 1k on a 40k HP build, a bit more going up to 50k HP.
Determination gain is another matter, but the thing is: with DR being so low, increasing determination gain but taking away unstoppable recovery means very little difference since HRs, TRs, CWs, all have glyphs and some unresistable damage coming at you.
This said, i'd keep current unstoppable recovery and either increase determination gain OR DR on unstoppable for instigator, to around 25-50% (half bar-full bar). One of the two would work.
About TR survivability: you say you are "different". But i see 26/1 K/D ratios in first pages of leaderboard. All TRs above 10/1 except one.
You guys would be able to get the same ratio on a GF, GWF exc...? Cause no ther class even comes close to the 10/1 ratio that seems to be normal for current TRs. Are they all unskilled and all TRs are so skilled? I don't think so. My opinion is that current TR is ok with damage. No need to nerf. But survivability is overkill. Too much stealth + dodge lenght increase + other tools all piled up to give a TR potential immortality. The fact a good intimidation GWF (i say good cause most of them are so predictable i usually dodge most of their intimidation through simple sprint) can catch you with a broken mechanic just means it's broken mechanic vs another broken mechanic.
Which is pretty much what current PvP is all about. Brainless broken mechanics against other brainless broken mechanics.
For sentinels i'd rather see a buff to unstoppable recovery on capstone and more tanking ability but no more nonsense intimidation.
Seriously, since when running and shooting AoE around is the way to deal PvP single target damage? AoE is for PvE.
PvP should be all about single target, aiming, timing, dodging. The opposite of current PvP. I play Instigator cause it's the only way to play a normal PvP GWF out of stupid intimidation sentinel.
Also, if i go sentinel i'm supposed to be a tank GWF not a DPS machine that just run around and nukes entire areas.
Hunter Ranger:
As far as I know, there aren’t any MAJOR bugs with this class other than the ability to shift out of the control of certain encounters, but still get whacked with all the damage, and vise versa. I know this is a lack of knowledge on my part, but I’m pretty sure some posters will be glad to further advise me.
Intimidation - This feat is indeed very useful for PvE, and I have a proposed solution to make it equally as beneficial while taking away it’s incredible impact on PvP-which is due to the powers it employs-and still make it a viable PvE skill. Firstly, remove its dependency on power and make it so that it’s affected by the amount of targets within a certain range, i.e A lot of monsters = a lot of damage. This solution will allow GWF’s to stack other stats as opposed to giving up all their defensive stats to stack Power
Hands off Intimidation! This is the only AoE-power enhancement usable in PvP to fight TRs. Even Takedown prone won't help to kill TR without good AoE first. Leave it alone. Or, even, return old 50% instead of 35%
Hands off Intimidation! This is the only AoE-power enhancement usable in PvP to fight TRs. Even Takedown prone won't help to kill TR without good AoE first. Leave it alone. Or, even, return old 50% instead of 35%
That's all we need to be in balance. Don't touch anything else since M5. A risk of "infinite nerfing loop" is too high
P.S. Prone to Takedown may be added only if this strike is not deflected. This will be pretty fair.
you read his text, but you didnt even understood what he said. shame on you !
Comments
PS. i am glad that others CW notice our useless new "super" bonus from 4/4 pvp set ;f
Please read my posts in their entirety before arriving at a response to them. whenever I try to balance a class I make sure to justify it all around.
In response to my TR bias: I stated that I'm pretty biased towards my own class, but I see it like this: If your going to ask TR's to back cap, give them a way to kill things or stop asking us to die. It's selfish to assume we as a class exist to hold the back cap and run circles all day, and I refuse to give into that.
In response to my K/D: take a look at the majority of end game BiS TR k/d. The average is 6-7. I am an extreme condition, which is mostly attributed to my OCD for never dying. you can ask around about that. to further on that point, every module I've maintained at least a positive 20 K/D. What you see now is what happens when you actually make my class useful
In response to empowered shield: I'm completely pro empowered shiled! I think it's a brilliant mechanic. I simply just believe it needs to be changed in color to give the greater population a visual tell... It dosent necessarily affect me because I just count how many times the DC used a divine power, but I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate it.
General Response to all: Seriously, read at least the WHOLE class breakdown before you respond to it, there is a reason for everything.
My GWF is not BIS, but well geared (GWF, DC, vanguard artefact, con belt and SS weapon, all legendary, all R9, allmost all radiants, BI, 47k HP). I played destroyer for most of the time. After I tested the intimidation build on preview, I switched. The problem of the destroyer build atm is (at last for me), that you are most likely dead, before you can reach your stacks and even when you could deal decent dmg, your surviveability is just not there, at last against players with decent gear. You are right, wheen you say, that it is all radiant with full BIS sets, but this is due to all the artefact gear valid for almost all classes (at last for offensive slots).
IF they would change intim. to a dmg feature depending on weapon dmg, they would most likely give it HAMSTER% weapon dmg, period. Due to my personal expirience with class adjustments I am very sceptic about adjustments done by cryptic.
BTW. I could only think about a high power/ destroyer/ slam/ AP gain build as viable, but I did not test instigator, bc it seemed very lackluster to me.
Amen to that, this is why I only talk about max potential
thats what i said, destroyer problem is buildin up the 20 stacks. in matter of DPS and overalll DPS it does better than any paragon.
for a striker role, surviability shouldn't even be as big as a defender role.
a full destroyer full stacked + 8-9k power can one shot probably every class, dont underestimate POWER , cuz power isn't only for intimidation gwfs.
if they would change the intim into HAMSTER% weapon damage, that means the base damage will remain at one level, and not keep growin, in addition i find it rather usefull of using faster your encounters(lowering the cooldowns by 2-4 sec) , even if that means you will do less damage from 1 hit,
its not simply changin the animation
but to make them more responsive
CAGI gives a 20% bonus damage for 3 sec
DAring Shout Take DR from enemies.
thess are encounters that weren't reworked and never used from day 1. now we are in mod5 and we have a new way of playin the gwf.
and intimidation build needs a rework imo. doing small tweaks.
either way
there is probably one way of makin this game attain balance
that means devs should pick players ingame as their testers.
and this balance should start from TOP and finishied at the BOTTOM
it should start with TIER 3 players and finishied with the bottom.
that means every class will hit a line.
and they should revise each class roles.
and by then we can have gametypes.
just gather 10-15 players ingame that will play BIS 1vs1 eachother and 5vs5 in a team, they will give proper feedback. they will show in real time to devs that some feats multiprocc etc.
and when will they release someth it will be someth enjoyable and competitive.
but this means that the dev who is workin at doing class balance should dedicate some of his time.
this will help the community to interact with the devs.
this will stop the chain of hatred of many things.
I'm sorry, I failed to be a little bit more specific. It's not that I generally disagree about the top-to-bottom approach, but the discrepancy in # of BiS chars compared to the # of casual chars is so high that it doesn't really matter whether the class balance at the very top is broken, because it affects like 50 people (exaggerated, but you get the idea). Seriously, how many BiS guild premades do even exist? 20+? I don't think so.
So for this game it actually makes more sense to balance PVP around 13k GS than 20k+. If you're saying that with the proposed changes also the lower tier PVP would be better, I agree. But the amount of time the devs need to put into achieving that is just too high compared to the players that would really benefit. Currently the TR is too OP in lower level PVP, so it will be nerfed. This is what happened throughout and I can't see any change in approach in Mod 5.
It's not that I'm content with it, but you better start living with it. This is a casual PVE game.
End of story.
You need trained testers to do those things, people that get paid for their work! It is not as easy as you may think, there are so many scenarios to follow that you just cant test with some kids and call it a day, but that is offtopic.
i am not talkin that the testers should make the changes, not at all.
it's like this:
the dev changes someth or implement someth, and the tester will bring feedback, either if it's broken or workin properly or if it affects the gameplay in a bad way etc.
but this thing should be started at BIS gear .
i still think that devs dont know that a GWF with intimidation can get up to 14k power in pvp (probably even more)
especially for the reason they didnt test it out on a BIS character.
and in matter of testing?
we talk about neverwinter here, and we talk about players that plays this game on a upper level than others. i think they are trained enough. i might not be an american/canadian to speak fluent english, but there are some top players that can do that. and probably can help doing someth.
If these things are introduced and marketed, the game will grow exponentially.
This is EXACTLY right. A perfect example is a class like the HR.
At lower levels of damage/deflect/lifesteal everything SEEMS balanced. The HR gets hit hard and dies, the lifesteal isnt at meaningful levels to really make a difference and damage is good.
Increase damage a few %, deflect a few % and lifesteal a few % and now the HR dishes out very good damage and has insane self-healing and survivability. (Note: I am NOT saying this is how it is today, this is just an example).
Or take the GWF Indimidation builds. at the 50% of power levels, on an average GS player, it was a DECENT feat. Get a GWF with 10-12k+ Power though and it was game BREAKING.
In both of these examples, with the Top -> Bottom Balancing this is not only addressed but creates BALANCE throughout ALL tiers of the game.
With Bottom -> Top balancing, something at the bottom may seem balanced and maybe even only slightly OP, but at TOP end levels it can be game BREAKING.
In balancing dungeons/PVP/Classes ANYTHING it should start with the TOP players and work its way down from there. This may be why PVE is such a joke, because the DEVs have PROVEN to not be as skilled in this game as a majority of players. So they test a fight like "Tamiat" say "ok this is pretty hard" and a hardcore player base comes in rolls their face on the keyboard to win....
They need to work with top tier players in these areas to help determine balance and this will GREATLY positively impact the game for ALL.
Agreed. Like OP stated, this thread is not for people who want to talk about pug matches. Too much gear and skill variables are causing misconceptions for pugs. Balance indeed starts at the top and we can only see true class balance/imbalance when we analyze matches between fully geared players versus other fully geared and skilled players.
A 20k GS SW can easily kill a 9k GS TR in a pug match. Does that mean SW is overpowered? No. It just means you are in a pug match with lots of greater variables affecting your conception.
This is very true, and maybe partly why lower tier PVPers are not able to even adequately perceive what is or isnt OP.
You could have a 10k GS low skilled player using an "OP" feat/item/feature/ability against a 15k GS player and the 10k GS player wouldnt even know its OP. It will just feel like an "even match" between the two.
Not that GS means everything at all, but it does play SOME indication as to where a player stands.
Its only at the top tier, where you KNOW players are on an even footing that you are REALLY able to adequately assess what is and is not balanced.
Not only that but as mentioned before, at lower tiers things that scale are less apparent. An easy example of this is lifesteal. Lifesteal really doesnt become GREAT until you invest pretty heavily into it. A 15k GS player may only have 400 points in lifesteal, while a 20k GS player can have 1200 without giving up any other real damage stats.
That massive difference in lifesteal, makes a TON of difference in top tier PVP, where as the lower tier player would have ZERO indication of its value as he is not able to full take advantage of the stat.
thats why a lobby system will do greatly for us.
and leave the normal que for solo/duo que.
and lobby for premades.
that means you can do a mix of people fightin another mix of people.
but the lobby should be with rooms.
like a 5man party elader sends a challenge to the other 5man party leader.
this thing will make our community to grow to another level.
this way we can have tournaments/whitenights wars etc.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Man if they release new PvP content I doubt people would have time to complain , most issues are probably only annoying due to constant exposure
My gripe is with the perma/near-perma stealth that TRs are in. They are only visible for a split second, not long enough to fire any at-will, encounter, or daily at them. It's just cheese. I don't have a suggestion for it as I haven't played my TR in ages. It's just been sitting there since mod1.
I may dust it off and respec it seeing its the new "flavor of the mod Class."
Does taking damage still take away from the stealth meter?
Do dodges make TRs immune for that moment?
I'm not an "high" end player, but I'm quite experienced since everyday I do lot of pvp fair 1vs1 in IWD with my 17k gs CW. (and I also have all classes but SW to level 60)
GWF: after CAGI nerf I think it's the most balanced class (unfortunately, in a non balanced system they suffer a lot of their average position).
GF: in high end they are VERY tanky and with good deflection+AoS+Fairy thistle+glyph they could do a large amount of dmg just holding their shield. I think they don't need any dmg buff, maybe some more value in no protector tree, but it's risky, since they could easly reach 60k hp, with a shield that make them immune to a lot of thing for a VERY LONG time...adding dmg could make a disaster begin.
DC: this is maybe one of the most funny class now, since you basically could have a healer three that doesn't do any real dmg (just refine AS and the capstone, cause it proc too strong and too often) or a dps tree and now, when you have a DC in your party, you know it will not be a bad luck.
CW: I think the main problem is about different feats from different tree: now oppressor, with the deflection applied to CC and CC breaker (everyone got one... everyone but poor SW), it's almost useless.
Thaum it's still not bad but renegade now is the best.
Maybe they could make something different like a CC tree, a dps tree and a tank tree. For example, adding some shield buff feat (maybe regen or something like) for nerfed-assailing-Thaum and decreasing the chaotic grown, speccing renegade for dps and thaum for tank build.
Hr: now they are quite good, in a fight with even GS I can both defeat them or die, even if I agree they need to be more fitted for archery.
SW: now they are the weakest, but I don't know too much this class, so I prefer to leave it to someone else.
TR: I think it's completely OP: I fought TR with 3k gs less then me and sometime I was completely unable to just hurt them.
They just go stealth and cast DS and watch me die, running up and down, casting stealing time and icy terrain and oppressive force unsuccessfully.
...Or they can run for a scoundriel tree, with concussive strike they can daze you for almost 6 sec: in 6 sec a good rogue could kill you at least twice.
So I don't know why they cryed in mod4 just because they must run INVISIBLE always, sometime holding a node against 3 players: they choose that way, and they were enough annoying without the ability of killing you with one at-will as now.
So my suggestion is to leave them the choice between at least two build: a perma stealth one (quite similar to mod4) or a more combat one, based on deflection (in my opinion HR steal this build to TR) and with high damage which leave, in the meanwhile, the risk that other class could catch you.
SUGGESTION:
At the end you will notify a common thing in all my test: each class needs really different tree, so they could take a way and take a role.
The 5vs5 pvp is a team play, but if in each module we had a class that pop up, unbalancing all, with great defense, great LS, great DPS and great CC at the same time we'll always run for a balance we'll never find.
Otherwise, this could be a marketing tathic, since dev unbalance think, pushing pvp players to buy thing in order to fill the gap, but I'm confident the Dev group well know that a well balanced game has a longer life and will give you more money in time.
Please, Perfect World + Cryptic, spend a little money on another developer or two to work on improving the PvP situation. Hard core PvPers will spend a lot of their time and money to be the best if you provide them a game worthy of it. Old players will flock back and new players will want to play. There's a great core game here, with a few additions and tweaks it could be great game top to bottom. Your player base will grow by leaps and bounds as will your bottom line.
-Cog
Sprint being more responsive been asked since ages. But again: sprint is currently needed to close gaps/ chase the enemy AND defend. Ad it falls short in terms of defensive capabilities, would not compensate a 2,5% healing on unstoppable just by being "more responsive". Not like recovery healing is that much. It's around 1k on a 40k HP build, a bit more going up to 50k HP.
Determination gain is another matter, but the thing is: with DR being so low, increasing determination gain but taking away unstoppable recovery means very little difference since HRs, TRs, CWs, all have glyphs and some unresistable damage coming at you.
This said, i'd keep current unstoppable recovery and either increase determination gain OR DR on unstoppable for instigator, to around 25-50% (half bar-full bar). One of the two would work.
About TR survivability: you say you are "different". But i see 26/1 K/D ratios in first pages of leaderboard. All TRs above 10/1 except one.
You guys would be able to get the same ratio on a GF, GWF exc...? Cause no ther class even comes close to the 10/1 ratio that seems to be normal for current TRs. Are they all unskilled and all TRs are so skilled? I don't think so. My opinion is that current TR is ok with damage. No need to nerf. But survivability is overkill. Too much stealth + dodge lenght increase + other tools all piled up to give a TR potential immortality. The fact a good intimidation GWF (i say good cause most of them are so predictable i usually dodge most of their intimidation through simple sprint) can catch you with a broken mechanic just means it's broken mechanic vs another broken mechanic.
Which is pretty much what current PvP is all about. Brainless broken mechanics against other brainless broken mechanics.
For sentinels i'd rather see a buff to unstoppable recovery on capstone and more tanking ability but no more nonsense intimidation.
Seriously, since when running and shooting AoE around is the way to deal PvP single target damage? AoE is for PvE.
PvP should be all about single target, aiming, timing, dodging. The opposite of current PvP. I play Instigator cause it's the only way to play a normal PvP GWF out of stupid intimidation sentinel.
Also, if i go sentinel i'm supposed to be a tank GWF not a DPS machine that just run around and nukes entire areas.
So the TRs running around now are perfectly balanced?
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?787111-List-of-mod-5-(preview)-HR-bugs
That's all we need to be in balance. Don't touch anything else since M5. A risk of "infinite nerfing loop" is too high
P.S. Prone to Takedown may be added only if this strike is not deflected. This will be pretty fair.
Bear. Vodka. Balalaika.
you read his text, but you didnt even understood what he said. shame on you !